So I have some 250 gallon water tanks that I want to use to capture rain and snow melt.


My challenge is the totes will be some distance from my house so a power cord is not practical.

My issue is the majority of precipitation happens here during the winter, snow and rain from November to April (which is also the coldest period of the season.

Would a non electric blanket work?

What non electric method seems the most feasible? I have 4 of the above tanks.

Their location for practicality would place them behind a fence in the shade so no solar warmth.

ummmm...  

you do understand how a blanket makes you feel warmer, right?
it traps warm air near your body.  
that air got warmed BY your body's heat.

now extrapolate that concept to a tank of water.

ar-jedi

Lol its gonna freeze

Yeah, I get the science, I'm looking for a hack.

1)
small electric water heater (conduction type, like an automotive engine block heater) driven by solar panel.  
heats the water during the day.
put insulation () over the tanks to keep the daytime-induced heat in over the evening.  
if this doesn't work (i.e. too cold at night), you will need a storage battery to periodically heat the water over the night.

2)
small electric water pump driven by solar panel and batteries.  
moves the water 24x7.
the freezing point of the water will be reduced when moving.
if it gets really cold this will not help.

3)
dig a hole, about 4 feet deep, below the frost line.  put the tanks down in the hole.  
cover the hole with bales of hay.  
the earth temperature will remain at about 45'F, the hay will provide some decay warmth and insulation.

ar-jedi

  Russians solved this problem a century ago.
For winter season, convert  storage over to Vodka.

Awesome. Thanks.

The buried Idea is out as the tanks will be gravity dispensed. (great idea, just not for me)

The solar idea is probably what I will go with, I know the "block heater" Idea I would imagine takes a fair amount of energy to make it useful so I will have to research a practical operating system. (with financial investment being closely scrutinized) I mean any rich guy can come up with a kick ass system, but a poor man has to find more creative solutions.

Part of my reluctance in complicated systems are
A) cost. I could easily invest large sums of money on more sophisticated systems, but that is antithetical to a survival (read primitive) fall back. Not that there is anything wrong with sophisticated systems, just not this application.

B) maintenance intensive. I am (in this application) looking for a basic system that would be more or less self sufficient in the water collection/storage with a minimum of energy resources and a system that is free from daily maintenance requirements.

I keep some of the water barrels out on porches, in unheated garages etc
I don't bother trying to warm them in the winter

Use cords....and fishtanks heaters. If not heaters...big powerheads breaking the surface!

What about freezing?

Are you worried about splitting the barrels ??

Now that I think about it, splitting the barrels is my main concern. I won't have a lot of use with the barrels and water during the wet/freezing weather. But I don't want them to split over the freezing weather periods.

If not drinking water I would say some chemical agent.

I have enough other water options, from gallon jugs to military water jugs to commercial water bottles..the barrels aren't filled to the top; so there is room for expansion
By any chance do you keep a greenhouse?
My back porch was used as a germination room by the previous owner for their garden. Lots of glass windows, and even in the winter months as long as I keep the door closed, that room tends to stay warm.
Not warm enough to completely prevent freezing all winter in Upstate NY, but generally warmer than the outside temps.

I figure you have a lot worse temps than expy deals with, but he has posted pics of his water storage at his bug out place a few times.

He rigged up a temp sensor and security cam so he can check temps over the net.

My favorite pics were from the black bears eating the styrofoam and redecorating the yard as well.

Anyway, reflector and black paint and maybe some styrofoam can accomplish a lot but I would have a temp sensor so I could keep up with things.

I would also find it amusing to know how easy 55 gallons freezes in one of those cubes vs 200 gallons.

You still might have issues with cracking when it freezes just because it might not freeze the way you want.

I like east tn.  A little sunlight usually melts the water dishes, but the pups like their hockey pucks so usually they already flipped the water dishes and have played with their ice toys.  I think it is a plan to make me haul more water anyway.

No, chemicals are a no go. It will be used for the garden.

Soluble fertilizers are salts.  They will lower the freeze point.  Depends on the concentration and your temps but maybe something to  look at that (for above ground, maybe in combination with stirring pumps).  Of course, the fertilizers aren't cheap.

A different spin on burying the storage containers.  Bury your storage containers, but keep one or two empty container above ground that you'd pump up into during the growing seasons (using a solar pump) for gravity operations.

If this isn't potable water we are talking about, why save it over the winter at all to where we are discussing how to keep it from thawing.
Set up a water barrel in the spring, catch your roof run off, rainwater , sump pump water whatever and use it in the garden.....

I am confused - gardens don't need water in the winter.  Catch the spring rains and use it?   Leave the tote empty all winter?

What am I missing?   Is there really only snow in the winter but no rain in the spring?

Our solution is to use the sun in the mountains where the wx is harsh.

Topic from 2011

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_18/642620__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Solar_Water_Box_Finally_Finished_and_have_some_performance_data_.html&page=1

Here


It gets very cold and has never frozen. We monitor the inside box temp and the inside tank temp remotely with a Control By Web internet device and right now the respective temps are 38/39 F.


Picture of 130 gallon tank...



http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af66/expy37/SOLAR%20BOX%20BEAR%20INSULATION%20PAW%20PRINT%20MAY%2026%202015_zpsvbrhzzzq.jpg




I'd suggest adapting a H-F greenhouse plastic assembly to your tank and insulating areas around the tank that don't receive sunlight.

http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af66/expy37/SOLAR%20BOX%20BEAR%20INSULATION%20PAW%20PRINT­%20MAY%2026%202015_zpsvbrhzzzq.jpg



New site isn't ready for prime time for posting pictures...



Photobucket link...


testing...




Can anyone look at 'quote' and see what I'm doing wrong???

There are propane heaters that do not need electricity.
I do not remember if they work with plastic tanks though.

What are your temp extremes like? If not too bad, paint tanks black and put them in a greenhouse. Put them in the middle, putting space blankets on North dude wall to reflect otherwise escaping solar energy to the tanks.

Moving water doesn't freeze at 32.

Rig water pump to circulate water through propane burner, or non electric propane hot water heater.

Cover with a healthy mound of fresh manure and grass, followed by straw. It will heat itself,bthe compost put on the garden in spring. Careful, could melt plastic.

Hopefully something in there helps.

the plastic tank inside the IBC cage is constructed of HDPE -- high density polyethylene -- which has a melt point of around 250'F.
https://www.plasticsintl.com/datasheets/HDPE.pdf

ar-jedi

OK, I've seen all kinds of answers that won't work for you, solar was mentioned even when you said it was in the shade, burying it which won't work since you want it to be gravity flow, so I will tell you what will work, but you could have helped by telling us where you lived and what temperatures you were expecting, I'm in AZ and it does snow here, but that will never be a problem for keeping 250 gallons from freezing.

You say a power cord won't be practical, I have buried 12/2 w GND for as much as 500' from my Power, it works fine, use heat tape around the container, and insulate the container and build a wood box around it.

OK you say it's too far for a power cord even at 500', move the tank closer to the house, use piping or a hose to get the water to the garden....

Probably cheaper to fill it up with well or city water in the spring.

Rancher

some sort of immersed heater would be an option IF you could run electric cable to the tanks.  But run them off some battery?   I doubt that is cost effective....  Anything you can buy for under   a couple hundred bucks won't run the heater for much before giving out.  You'd need a fair bit of solar AND a honking big battery bank to get the tanks to warm for any significant time....

You might get away with something somewhat different.....  Lots of people have scabbed together circulating pool heater.  Think insulated box, coil of pipe, glass cover, and a small pump to circulate water through.  Aim the whole think at the sun and let solar work to heat the water.  Now, instead of heating water with electricity, you are only pumping it.  Much less energy used.  Then set all four cubes together tightly, and cover entirely with straw bales...  The combination of captured solar heat and super insulation should go a long way to helping.

All this said, if your winters are anything like a USDA zone 3, you are screwed.  Your only option is going to be a whole lot of very large diameter electrical cable and some resistance heating. I have no ideas about your location, but if winter is a few months of cold at 30 degrees with a couple nights at 10, you're okay.  If your winters are the kind of cold frozen bullshit we get here on the Canadian border, where ice depth on lakes and rivers often gets to three plus feet thick and ground frostlines go to six feet deep ,   you're going to spend a hundred + bucks a month  on top of four heaters and some pricey 10 gauge wire heating that damned water all winter...  

Your best bet may be to simply fill each tank 2/3's or 3/4's full during the winter, and simply letting it freeze.  You don't need it for your garden in February anyways.  Then, once march rolls around and winter is largely over, start filling them more....  Don't even bother heating it....  If you need more than that, it would be cheaper and more efficient to buy two more cubes.  Six cubes, 3/4's full, that simply freeze and thaw are likely far more cost effective than trying to fill 4 completely and keeping them above freezing.

Should be good, but I would stick a probe in there to keep an eye on it. I've had some manure piles get EXTREMELY hot. Same way that hay bales start themselves on fire.

Evacuated tube is what you seek

Sounds to me like you need a underground cistern tank, probably too cost prohibitive though.

Option 3 above- dig a hole & bury it.

I know OP kind of ran off, but I think he will be disappointed with the options given.

First, he has not told us what kind of temperatures he experiences. Keeping things from freezing in TX is far different than MN or ND.

Second, sometimes solutions take compromise. You can't have water sitting in freezing temps without taking steps to keep them from freezing. If you won't/can't run electric, won't bury, won't move, won't budge any of your ideas, you will fail. 

OP: There are many options that would work, but we need info. Distance from electric, budget for the project, etc. WE NEED MORE INFO FROM YOU!!!

The "easiest" is to insulate the crap out of it and electric heaters of your favorite flavor. The ideal non-electric approach is a buried cistern. Pump it out in the summer to your "water tower" for use on the garden if you need to. You can pump by either electric (AC or DC powered pump options exist) or by hand, or by wind, or by a horse turning a mechanism that runs a pump should you fancy that sort of thing. 

There is no magic "add this" for a $20 option for that kind of thermal project. 

We had problems with our watering dishes freezing in our chicken runs, tossed and a few ping pong balls, and the wind moved them around enough to keep the water from being still and icing over.. Now, obviously that won't work inside those tanks, but if you could some how rig something up, (wind powered?) that would stir the water you might keep it from freezing solid.. Its gonna be challenging without power for sure, Id try a windmill, with some impellers in each tank, or build a PVC frame around the tank cover with clear polly maybe get some green house effect to keep the temps up?

Other than the [extremely] small heating of moving water due to molecular friction...

When has the physical freezing point of water been altered due to it's movement?

Have we repealed the Laws of Physics to Fool Ourselves [Americans' Favorite Pastime] to accommodate efforts not to freeze our Modular Storage Survival Water?

Laugh all you want, moving water has a difficult time freezing, even when below freezing point. I'm not sure of the exact physics behind it, but it does work.

To a point.. Which is whey we need to know FROM THE OP (Hello? You still here?) what kind of temps we are dealing with.

so rivers dont freeze?

Yes, they do. Hence I said "to a point", which you left out of your quote for some reason..

And actually, rivers freeze long AFTER the lakes do, lakes tend to ice over during non-windy days. Rivers also don't freeze as hard as lakes do. We have a creek 1/2 mile down the road that ever so BARELY ices over every year, if it does at all. Why? It moves water incredibly fast in that one spot. 

Like I said, it works to a point. I would not rely on it as a means for keeping water from freezing, but it does work to a point.

Don't keep water in it during the winter?  

You would be fighting a loosing battle in my AO even with tank heaters.  The amount of electricity used would be ridiculous, and pointless.  

In my AO its not uncommon to go weeks to a month in the negative.  Trying to keep water stored outside in a plastic container = broken plastic container.  

My chickens get a heated water container but that's about it.

My rain and water catchment system is based around 5 gallon buckets.  Gutters are all piped to a common outlet where I can place a 5 gallon bucket, remove when full.  Plus I have a small stream a couple hundred feet from my house.  

You need to change your plan to set the tank up to get some sun and then put your fertilizer in it. That is gonna be your easiest cheapest option. Also dont let it fill till the spring melt.

I know you said no electric but... I have livestock and use livestock tank heaters. They keep the water temperature just above freezing and have a built in thermostat. Many are safe for plastic tanks. Just dunk it in and plug it in.

This is really it. If there was some other solution to what the OP proposes, farmers and ranchers would already be using it.

Biggest issue for OP is that he will need 4 heaters, each @ 1500 watts, powered from a "considerable distance". Moving 6000 watts is not trivial over distance.

Of course, if OP would tell us what kind of temps we are talking here...

Well, if they were at my house I'd have to drain them

Where I grew up in WV, our water was a cistern collecting rain water.  In the winter, it'd freeze and you'd have to go out and bash through the ice layer with an ax to get the water to carry it in the house.  Dad always stuck a 2x4 down in the water to "keep it from freezing solid".  Not sure if it works or why, but the tank never froze solid up on the mountain.

Here is some to look at.

http://www.trojanlivestock.com/Heaters.html

It's not about saving it over winter so much, but that's when the magic liquid falls from the sky and must be collected. I would not be worried if I got 3-5 inches of magic liquid in the summer months falling from the Gods.

It only seems to be gifted during the cold months, presumably because the Gods don't need it or something, and it's very cold during that time so the freezing problem still persists.

Oh, I wish there was enough water in the spring. It's very unpredictable. Even in the winter we may only get 3-5 inches of precip in the form of snow and rain, and the average temp is ~40* with nights in the teens to 20's.

What if the tanks never get sunlight? Due to required location, they will be in shadow 24-365?

Winter is ~40* to > 20*

Not passive. requires resources to maintain. Not acceptable. (a good idea, just won't work here in this project.)

Northern Nevada between Carson City and Fernley

Sorry, I got busy and forgot about this thread.

I'll try to keep up.

Man! I really dropped the ball on that one..........

Run an extension cord or put a tank of propane nearby...