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Posted: 9/28/2014 5:51:03 PM EST
I know this is the survival forum rather then handgun forum, but I'm going to ask this here since this is where I visit the most. And, I view things through a SF prism as most of you do as well.

I recently sold everything I have in .40 cal to move to 9mm in all my autos. Why - - I can get everything from full size to subcompact pistols in 9mm. While a full size .40 or .45 may be fine, for me they may not be so great in a compact or subcompact. I'm considering the aging process with carpal tunnel and future arthritis factored in - - less recoil is better

Now, my quandary. I shoot a Glock 19 very well but I don't like the grip angle. In a perfect world, I would also prefer an optional thumb safety. I know the Glock is safe, but their are certain circumstances in which a safety would be nice. So, I picked up a M&P 9 thinking it would be my perfect gun - Glock like with nice grip angle and thumb safety. Unfortunately, I hate the trigger and I get the impression from various sources around the web that the M&P just isn't the durable gun that the Glock is. Rather, its more of a project gun like a 1911 - think APEX parts and the whole issue of customized guns in self defense shootings. Another issues is that I'm just now teaching my kids to shoot centerfire autos. A manual safety is a nice feature when kids are learning manipulation of the pistol.

So, in my situation, would you opt to ditch the M&P for Glock or would you put money into the M&P with APEX parts to try and make it the perfect pistol. Keep in mind, that I would ultimately be buying multiples of the pistol (thin 17/19/26 in Glock or FS/compact, shield for M&P) for carry, training, and eventual gifts to kids.

Link Posted: 9/28/2014 5:59:59 PM EST
I would ditch the M&P due to my personal experience with 2 of the 45 models. I have numerous glocks, but have gotten very comfortable with FNH FNX series of handguns. I find the angle and overall ergonomics of them to be excellent and even with the 45 models they handle the recoil as well as my USP.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 8:08:01 PM EST
Have you considered a grip reduction on the Glock?

I got spoiled by the 1911, but it is more maintenance intensive and lower capacity than a Glock.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 8:35:26 PM EST
I really don't "need" a grip reduction on a Glock, but I would probably give the Grip Force Adapter a try if I get a new one. Supposedly it reduces the Glock grip angle by about 8 degrees.

My dream gun would be a Glock with a 1911 grip angle and ambidextrous 1911 safety (optional like on the M&P).
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 8:40:04 PM EST
Let me shed some perspective.

I've spent years in the Middle East working with guys with backgrounds from army SF, Navy team guys, recon dudes from the corps. Why do I tell you this?

Because each came from a different background where a different pistol was utilized primarily. We learned those handguns inside and out and could shoot them at the level of unconscious competence.

Now we were all working for the .gov.

the issued handgun was the Glock 19. No choices, no whining.
You carried issued gear period.

We all learned to shoot the Glock 19 at the level of unconscious competence. We did not have to think about the draw, the sight picture, head shots, double taps, reholster, anything.

The point is, while you can switch gear all you want, you would be much better off, just using the tool you have at hand and learning to use that tool until you are at the level of unconscious competence.

There are 4 levels of competence. Research it.
Practice.
It is hard work.
Dedication and hard work will get you much further in regards to skill set than just buying stuff.

Stick with the Glock it will serve you fine.
Cheers!
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 8:59:41 PM EST
I agree with the above guy. Humans are blessed with decent brains, opposable thumbs and articulating wrists.

We all have preferences and I don't own a G-19 (gotta a Gen.2 G22,) but many people feel that it's a really great combat handgun.

Practice more.

Chris
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 9:12:00 PM EST
For what my opinion is worth, which is nothing, I have a couple of Glock 19s. I buy them for the family. I just bought a 23. From now on I'm going to get Glock 23s. Not that there is one single thing wrong with the 19s. The reason I'm going to 23s is for the price of a 9mm barrel, about $100, and a couple extra magazines I can shoot .40 or 9mm. Sometimes during panics 9mm is hard to find. If I'm carry the pistol for critters, the extra bulk in the slug would be appreciated. Just something to think about. And I do think if you said "no" to my suggestions and stuck strictly with the 19 you would be in great shape.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 9:37:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2014 9:38:02 PM EST by Pointman91]
From a SF perspective

Stick with Glock , tough as nails , proven track record and easy to find parts, mags, accessories and tons of holster options.

Reasonably priced too !

( just don't tell the guys on the HK forum I was here !)
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 9:50:44 PM EST
At the end of the day reliability wins . Buy a Glock and call it a day , look at finding a Gen 2 with no finger grooves , Those are more comfortable for some people
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 5:36:09 AM EST
Glock is to AK as AR is to MP ........:p


Glock won it for me cost...parts...mags...etc..more common than other sidearms.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 8:25:24 AM EST
Glock 9mm is the answer to your question. When my PD switched from S&W to Glock in the early 90's I HATED it. Damn plastic pistol with its staple gun trigger and weird grip angle..... Who wants that? But I quickly learned through training my body to match the weapon that it shot very well,kicked very little,and went bang EVERY TIME. Now anything other than a Glock in my hand feels weird. With a minimum stock of repair parts you could keep your families pistols running longer than your Grandchildren will live.

I have lots of fun guns. Glocks are for serious business.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 12:02:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2014 12:05:03 PM EST by Johnny_C]
My .02.

I don't care for the Glock angle
either after spending most of
my formative handgun years
shooting 1911's and some of
that time in Hi-Powers. When I
wanted a modern construction
handgun with more than 8-10
rounds, the Ruger SR9 was
coming into the market. I
bought it as a range/match/
class beater that if I dropped
it, rolled on it or banged it up, I
wouldn't cry about it. It's been
100% reliable. For a low cost
and readily available option,
you might try one of those.
It's my Glock equiv with
ambi safety & mag release.

I am sure I'll get some hate mail,
but I'm too old to care about that
stuff anymore.

Edit to add:
And for an even less expensive option
look at the Canik TP55.

John

Link Posted: 9/29/2014 2:54:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By trobertson5-0:
Glock 9mm is the answer to your question. When my PD switched from S&W to Glock in the early 90's I HATED it. Damn plastic pistol with its staple gun trigger and weird grip angle..... Who wants that? But I quickly learned through training my body to match the weapon that it shot very well,kicked very little,and went bang EVERY TIME..
View Quote


Same experience for me, except we went from Sigs to Glocks. It took some getting used to but the Glock is now my go to gun. I have a G19 for every member of the family. Universal ammo, mags and parts.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 3:14:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2014 3:17:27 PM EST by TonyF]
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 3:51:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2014 3:52:24 PM EST by quake]
I'd agree with most of those above in recommending to just stick with glock. No M&P hate here at all; I have have a bunch of 9mm handguns including two M&P 9mm full size, an M&P 9mm compact, three glock 19's, and two glock 26's. I'd frankly trust any of them with my life. If I were going to be stuck on a desert island with one handgun of choice, it'd either be a glock 19 or a stainless revolver. I don't know what higher recommendation I could make than that - that it'd be at the top of my list for a "stranded-on-an-island" gun.

I do understand the 'liking' of a manual safety. I'm an unreconstructed 1911 guy at heart and understand that completely. All three of my M&P's have the manual safety and I like it. If the topic was that you disliked your glock and wanted a 9mm with a manual safety, I'd try to talk you into the M&P; but since you've ruled the M&P out, I can't think of a better option than the glock you already have. That said, the M&P's trigger does get better with use. I'm very happy with mine now.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 5:55:44 PM EST
Not sure if the ads are bs, but when Glock says they have pistols with 250K rounds through them, that's saying something.

Go Glock.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 6:31:20 PM EST
5-7, don't look back...
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 6:54:32 PM EST
Thanks for the validation of what I was thinking.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 6:55:13 PM EST
GLOCK.

My favorite handguns is a XD9sc, but I will readily admit that GLOCK is a superior design to anything in the handgun world.
Reliable, robust, light weight, magazine capacity, accurate, parts availability, easy to disassemble, easy to repair.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 7:17:29 PM EST
Glock
Glock
Glock

Rinse and repeat.

Look up "candle method" for a Glock grip reduction, you'll be amazed. It's where I start on my Glocks, I do tend to go further with it and even stipple. But a good candle reduction will do wonders.

Other than the night sights going dark, I've never replaced any parts due to wearing out on any of my Glocks. Including my old dirty girl G17 bought used in 1992, cleaned for the first time this year. Lubed it plenty but never cleaned, quit counting rounds through it after I passed 50k.

Link Posted: 9/29/2014 7:24:26 PM EST
For myself the 19/23 guns have never fit me that well. I have shot with them. When it comes to the Gen4 it does fit a lot better but still not as well as the Walther PPQ. The PPQ is the best 19/23 sized gun that fits. Its issue is its aftermarket. Almost non existent. Its better now with the Walther Arms being the states instead of S&W being the importer. Now if you want something 19/23 sized but want some sort of safety for piece of mind you might want to look at the P99 which has a decocker. Once again Glock kills just about every company on after market alone.

If I were you just stick with Glock and this is coming from a guy who doesn't really like them but owns one (a G22).
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 7:38:46 PM EST
I have glocks and m&ps, have you shot an m&p with an apex trigger kit?I've installed 3 ,as close to a glock feel as your going to find.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 7:56:37 PM EST
When I was shopping for my EDC gun, I went to several ranges and shot several different guns. I ended up with the Springfield XD because the grip was a little more natural for my hands and the trigger from the factory was miles ahead of the Glock (and really is one of the best big production factory triggers out there). That being said, whatever you have (or end up getting) get to the point where you can shoot well with it without having to concentrate on it.

My wife has carpal tunnel and has had a couple of surgeries. She opted to get a Sig P238. She likes the way it fits her hands and such, but she really needs to get some solid instruction and practice to become proficient at using her weapon. I've taken a few classes to get reasonably proficient. The last one we shot almost 1k rounds and my hands were really aching by the end of the weekend. (XD 5 inch in 45)

If you want to try a gun that would not go well with carpal tunnel (or a class where you're firing 1000rds), try an XDS in 45. Ouch is about the best way to describe it. Recoil is "tame" by 45 standards, but in such a light gun, it's really punishing on the palms. I can't imagine taking a class with that gun.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 10:02:56 AM EST
If your objective for dumping the .40 and going to 9mm was for SHTF situation, I agree wholeheartedly. I have thought to do the same, but I love my sigs too much. I just wish I had bought them in 9mm!!!

I am not a fan of Glock but there is a lot to be said about its popularity, parts availability, 30 rounds mags, price, etc.

My guns are Sigs in .40, but if I was doing it all over again, I would prob go the Glock route for SHTF (buy a few for family) and then also keep my quality guns for accuracy, quality and RELIABILITY.

The only reason Glock is a huge seller is due to its low cost. If I'm not mistaking, its the lowest priced reasonable quality Semi auto pistol in the market, or at least it was when it first came out. That is the only reason!!!!!

But as others have said, it ultimately comes down to proficiency and muscle memory and that's the function of practice. So which ever way you go, practice, practice and practice!
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 10:18:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2014 10:20:27 AM EST by ferfal308]
Originally Posted By Calhoun123:
I know this is the survival forum rather then handgun forum, but I'm going to ask this here since this is where I visit the most. And, I view things through a SF prism as most of you do as well.

I recently sold everything I have in .40 cal to move to 9mm in all my autos. Why - - I can get everything from full size to subcompact pistols in 9mm. While a full size .40 or .45 may be fine, for me they may not be so great in a compact or subcompact. I'm considering the aging process with carpal tunnel and future arthritis factored in - - less recoil is better

Now, my quandary. I shoot a Glock 19 very well but I don't like the grip angle. In a perfect world, I would also prefer an optional thumb safety. I know the Glock is safe, but their are certain circumstances in which a safety would be nice. So, I picked up a M&P 9 thinking it would be my perfect gun - Glock like with nice grip angle and thumb safety. Unfortunately, I hate the trigger and I get the impression from various sources around the web that the M&P just isn't the durable gun that the Glock is. Rather, its more of a project gun like a 1911 - think APEX parts and the whole issue of customized guns in self defense shootings. Another issues is that I'm just now teaching my kids to shoot centerfire autos. A manual safety is a nice feature when kids are learning manipulation of the pistol.

So, in my situation, would you opt to ditch the M&P for Glock or would you put money into the M&P with APEX parts to try and make it the perfect pistol. Keep in mind, that I would ultimately be buying multiples of the pistol (thin 17/19/26 in Glock or FS/compact, shield for M&P) for carry, training, and eventual gifts to kids.

View Quote


I tell every person serious about defensive pistol shooting the same thing. Just get a Glock and shoot it until you love it.
If you dont love it you havent shot a Glock enough and you need some more Glocking.
FerFAL
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 11:26:55 AM EST
I grew up with 1911 45's, and therefore hate the wierdo G-23 grip angle. However, Amazon sells Glock grip adapters (2 for about $20) that are fast and easy to install and fix the bad Glock grip angle.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 12:53:43 PM EST
Pick the one you shoot better with
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 3:24:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2014 3:26:46 PM EST by Plattekill]
Walther P99 AS

Walther PPQ

HK VP 9


Last choice would be keep the Glock. But you can change now. See above.

Never S&W for me.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 3:54:46 PM EST
CZ or a clone.

Plastic guns are crap.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 7:00:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 8:23:16 PM EST
I vote go Glock but that's just me.

Whatever you decide make sure you have a good proper belt made for carrying a pistol and a couple good holsters.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 8:48:54 PM EST
Glock in your favorite flavor.

Do the grip reduction if you can. It makes it feel so much better.

Mine:


Link Posted: 10/1/2014 7:21:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dragynn:
...Plastic guns are crap.
View Quote

Now that's funny. Emotional, irrational, and objectively unsupportable, but funny.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 7:41:48 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dragynn:
CZ or a clone.

Plastic guns are crap.
View Quote


Don't necessarily agree that plastic guns are crap but the CZ75 is a sweet shooting 9mm.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 8:46:48 AM EST
I'm going to cut/paste this from this thread
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
There's a lot of good choices for a full-size service pistol.

Sig Classic Series
Beretta 92 series
Glock
S&W M&P series
HK

Those are probably the top choices for full size service pistols available.

1911s are nice, but information abounds as to why they're poor choice for a general purpose SHTF/dervice pistol.

I'm really becoming a fan of the M9/92 the more I use them. They're accurate, absurdly reliable, and magazines are cheap and abundant. I believe most people who have issues with the safety/decocker don't have more than a small amount of experience with them. I've been shooting Army Combat Competitions with M9s and they're very easy to adapt to. Thumb pushes forward past the safety into position along the slide on the draw. The thumb hooks the safety/decock during reholstering. Very simple to do and doesn't require using the other hand like many seem to believe.

Sig's have a very easy to use decocker and are very accurate. Bombproof as well. NSW has a love affair with their MK25s and that just underscores that they're "tough as nails, never fails".

Glocks are a standard and are basically the AR of handguns. No handgun has more aftermarket support or holster options.

M&Ps are second to Glock in popularity but they have much better ergonomics. There's quite a bit of aftermarket support and holster options. They're also very popular and are the accepted alternative to Glock for well known trainers.

HKs are some of the most durable reliable pistols available. I can't cite any issues of them I know of, and all of the above have had widespread citeable issues at some point in their manufacture (excepting the Beretta where the issues are limited to very early no longer produced versions). The biggest problem people have with HKs are the price (metal prices for poly handguns) and the triggers. The VP9 seems to have addressed both of these but it's too new to say with confidence that it's a reliable tough as nails handgun.

In the end, there are lots of good choices out there. Handguns are far more personal a choice than rifles. Try a bunch of see what works, but be open minded about the pros and cons of everything and don't become emotional about your choice.
View Quote

Pistols are an intensely personal thing. They have their own ergonomics that, unlike a rifle, can not be easily and completely altered with the addition of cheap aftermarket parts. You can thin the grips, stipple/shave polymer, and add backstraps. But in the end those still only do so much.

As for your situation, if you objectively shoot the G19 well I'd stick with it. If you want to change the ergos start with the grip force adapter and look into getting a professional grip reduction done. I personally wouldn't change too much about the grip as it will preclude the use of certain accessories. But that's me.
For a thumb safety Comonolli makes a thumb safety, although to me having a quality holster that covers the trigger guard is the best manual safety you can have.
Cominolli Safety

D&L lever on a Cominolli Safety


The M&P is the glock that people who don't like Glock do well with. They've had their fair share of issues. However, unlike Glock (who has had significant issues, oddly enough) admits when there's a design flaw or manufacturing issue then works to fix it. Glock is notorious for hiding issues from consumers and organizations and blaming individuals for limp wristing being the cause of any malfunction. My opinion is a quality handgun shouldn't be able to be limp wristed so to me that's a poor excuse even if true.

I had a similar conundrum with myself recently. I've been wanting a high end poly striker pistol as my go-to gun and looked into a unity tactical glock with a high end trigger. I instead decided to upgrade my M&P9FS and just ordered the Apex FSS and RAM. Eventually I'm going to look into an ATOM modification and a MRDS.

Any gun can become a project gun, but unlike a 1911, they don't require fitting of various components to work on and getting functioning properly. The M&P is perfectly workable in its stock form, but the Apex parts are an excellent upgrade.

As for modifications in a SD shooting; There's really no evidence that it has ever mattered in any shooting anywhere. This topic comes up constantly and there's no evidence those in favor or stock pistols can show. So, there's no "issues of customized guns in self defense shootings". It's a problem made up by a self-appointed gun guru who makes money by being an expert trial witness.

If you want multiple guns, you can't go wrong with any of the guns above. I'd worry less about "gifts to the kids" as they may not like your choice as they become more proficient.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 8:48:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dragynn:
CZ or a clone.

Plastic guns are crap.
View Quote

Funny how one opinion can be completely negated by an ignorant and unsupported comment.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 1:28:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2014 1:30:02 PM EST by GlockTiger]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:

Funny how one opinion can be completely negated by an ignorant and unsupported comment.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By Dragynn:
CZ or a clone.

Plastic guns are crap.

Funny how one opinion can be completely negated by an ignorant and unsupported comment.


Hah, especially when you consider the contradictions. Just one very affordable example of many:

Link Posted: 10/1/2014 7:44:12 PM EST
If you shot a Glock 19 well, why not stick with that?

The whole "grip angle" thing is a cop out. It can easily be overcome with training and muscle memory.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 8:00:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TobyLazur:
If you shot a Glock 19 well, why not stick with that?

The whole "grip angle" thing is a cop out. It can easily be overcome with training and muscle memory.
View Quote

To play devil's advocate, that training and muscle memory time could be used to used to further your skill with a handgun you aren't fighting the ergonomics of.

The grip angle is an issue for many. I have quite a bit of time on Sig's, Berettas, M&Ps, and 1911s. All easily point to my natural POA on draw. Glocks on the other hand point up. They just don't conform to my natural point of aim.

However, the OP said he shoots the G19 well, so it' obviously not as big an issue as he believes it to be.

Link Posted: 10/2/2014 12:05:34 AM EST
S&W recently redesigned the M&P slidestop with a projection that contacts the trigger bar and adds a tactile reset to the trigger.

This is now a stock part if you are worried about customization in court, which is something I think about after watching the Zimmerman trial and seeing how the prosecution treated his weapon including questioning where he carried it, what kind of holster he used, his ammo selection, and the fact he carried with a round chambered. I think it really helped Zimmerman at trial that he had a witness that was a Federal LEO that testified he advised Zimmerman on all his firearm and carry choices based on his LEO training. Makes me glad for all the training classes I have had that I can call the instructors as witnesses if God forbid I ever have to use a weapon and then go to trial afterwards.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 6:52:54 AM EST
I vote the Glock 19. I've always seen the lack of a thumb safety as a benefit and mine has never had a malfunction after shooting 1000s of rounds. The only thing I wish they would do is sell a single stack version for concealed carry. I tend to carry my LCP more because it's thinner. If they made a single stack in 9mm it's all I'd ever carry.
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