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Posted: 2/13/2012 11:32:33 PM EDT
Posted this in the LEO area had a few good answers then some not so good ones! I want to take it here because if SHTF be it job or everyday what would u want? My post below
So I'm going to be sent to a designated marksmen’s course for my PD and the PD said we can pick whatever rifle and caliber we want . My area is a large area when I think about it we might have shoots up to 500 yards yet I’m guessing most will be in the 100 yard or less range if we are needed! What I’d like to ask is what type of weapon would be best caliber and so on! I know bolt action holds tighter groups and all and I’m all for them with Snipers but I’m going to be only a DM in the Marines it that was someone with a little more training then the rest of the grunts but in no way a sniper. Maybe I’m getting the title wrong? Anyway I’m a 308 fan seen what it has done in Iraq but I’m open to other calibers! Like I said we could have long shots since I live in the open North Dakota but most I’m guessing will be a 100 yards or less! Any advice would help thanks! This is coming from a machine gunner who now is a DM if I pass the class! I'd like to hear your guys advice on this! Since I'm fed I'm looking at getting an M-14 placing a new barrel on it and getting a trigger job the other guy wants to buy a 338 win mag bolt gun. I don't want or think I need that being a DM. Tell me what you all think! |
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For the marksman role I would be more inclined to go with an AR10 type rifle . At the ranges of 500 yards and less that you describe the 308 will "get her done. " However your buddy talking about the 338 win mag sounds like he is thinking more along the lines of tradional sniping. You may want to ask the people running the school what they recomend for a rifle. Or if you have a prefernce for the M14 then just go that route and make it work for you.
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I'd take a look at the Larue OBR. I don't own one, but it would probably fit the bill. Maybe Colt_Sporter will chime in.
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After experience with M14 EBRs in the DM role, I would say hell no.
The M14/M1A is a good GP rifle for an armed citizen but it is not a good DM rifle. |
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Give your scope one click left. |
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I was a DM in my last unit, and one of the criteria we had was mobility. In Iraq I was in an urban environment so I ditched the M14 for a 5.56 purpose built SDM rifle. Getting in and out of vehicles in a hurry was an issue. I wasn't a DM role in Afghanistan but found that even though a lot of them carried M14 EBR's, most everyone opted out if they had th chance and went with a 5.56 again, or an M110 if they had that option.
A DM doesn't really need to shoot far, just place accurate fire in regular ranges. |
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No 6.8 SPC love yet in this thread? Basically the same cost of .308, hard hitting, and lighter to carry in the field. Since most of your shooting is within 100 yards and it sounds like you are not planning on shooting out further than 600 yards it would be worth checking out. Use your same lower and swap out with a 5.56 upper for lower cost training/practice ammunition. 68forums dot com will provide you with a wealth of information.
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.308 AR platform, for the money I like the LMT MWS
Good platform, uses magpul mags(ie affordable), free floated barrel and monolithic rail system from the factory, very reliable and accurate out Of the box |
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So what is a DM for Law Enforcement? I can see the patrol carbine and the dedicated sniper role but designated marksman seems like a military tasking.
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I've completed both the SDM course in the Army and a swat/srt sniper school with at my old PD, also my unit also had the other Army sniper and Air Force CPEC schools at Camp Robinson, and I use to support them - and can tell ya there is a WORLD of difference between mil. and police sharpshooter schools. At LEO school we never engaged anything beyond 200 meters, didn't do any range estimation and always targeted the 'facial scoring area', where the Army always had us hold center mass and out to 600m.
Honestly a 308 is great all around cartridge, but some PD's ( like the one I'm at now ) doesn't want the liability of over penitration, so issue .223rem. I personally prefer a semi-auto precision rifle, but always get handed a bolt gun. The way it was explained to me, in the polictal world of Police Chiefs, Sheriffs, etc, they usually don't want a "big scary black rifle" to show up in court when Joe Shitbag's family sues everyone, just like they don't like taking shots from extended distances because of the "possible room for error". I personally thing it's a bunch os BS and guess I can see their point. Usually if a sharpshooter has to be deployed, it's because of a barricaded gunman, hostage situation or something like that and there will be dozens of folks around, so where won't be any need to be a million miles away trying to get your guy with a .338lapua when youu'll most likely be 50 feet away from them laying behind a car. |
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+1 for 6.8 with regards to Semi Auto rifles. I have mine on order and will start reloading for it shortly. Dual purpose semi-precision AR platform rifle and deer rifle.
The .308 semi auto rifles I have handled are much heavier. If I were a sniper (and I'm not) but if I were a sniper I would stick with a Savage 110 or a Rem 700 with an 18" BBL and AICS detachable magazine |
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Quoted: I was shooting in idaho, lots of windGive your scope one click left. |
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If you're talking out to 300 yards take a hard look at the 6.8spc. I have that caliber in an AR I built and it is accurate. It's softer shooting than the .308. But if you're going to be shooting past 300 yards and want that knock down power, then the .308. I shot a big hog last summer with my 6.8spc using Barnes 95gr TTSX at 225 yards and it went down hard right in its footprints. The 6.8 definitely has its place.
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I'd take a look at the Larue OBR. I don't own one, but it would probably fit the bill. Maybe Colt_Sporter will chime in. Having used Colt_Sporter's OBR on more then one occasions. It works as advertised. http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/IMGP8648.jpg http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/IMGP8668.jpg Follow the Nike advertisement. Just Do It. Colt_Sporter on the right and I am on the left shooting my Bushmaster doing a situation base pistol/rifle course of fire. http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/Rangecopy.jpg http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/nikon2011reducedsize729.jpg http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/nikon2011reducedsize727.jpg http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/obrgood1correct.jpg Target above note. Aiming point is the square. Two inches (2.1") high is the 200 yard zero of a .308. Great pics...gotta love the multi- cam! |
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Since you said you weren't going to be a sniper, I'm not sure what the DM role would be, except ad hoc sniper if SWAT can't get there in time. Not knowing what you'd really be doing, I'd lean towards the 338 Lapua since it can execute against a target center of mass even with body armor. And of course it is a better anti-material round - eg successfully stop a vehicle.
If neither of those would be in your mission, I'd lean towards an AR which can take heavy 80gr 5.56. |
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Quoted: For the marksman role I would be more inclined to go with an AR10 type rifle . At the ranges of 500 yards and less that you describe the 308 will "get her done. " However your buddy talking about the 338 win mag sounds like he is thinking more along the lines of tradional sniping. You may want to ask the people running the school what they recomend for a rifle. Or if you have a prefernce for the M14 then just go that route and make it work for you. I love my LMT MWS!!! It outshoots me, big time! |
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I have a 16" Larue OBR with a magpul ctr stock on it. My personal recommendation would be for a QUALITY .308 semi-auto in the AR pattern. There are several benefits over the M-14 - the main two being magazines and optics mounting advantages. The military started using them (again) because - they needed a heavier hitting weapon than the 5.56 AND they had M-14's in inventory. Your larger calibers are going to be underutilized at the distances you have indicated.
16" barrel benefits - maneuverability and will still provide accuracy (my best 5 shot group with the OBR and Federal GMM at 100 yards has been just under 1/2" center to center), bolt gun or AR platform go with the shorter barrel (for bolt gun, I believe FNH has a 16" detachable magazine model, not sure on accuarcy though) .308 over other calibers - besides the obvious potential use against criminals, what about animals in your A/O? Bear, moose, elk - a .308 with Federal bonded trophy bear claw (don't have the model number handy) would perform very well in this role - giving a decided advantage over 5.56 - Check to see if your department can order off state bid pricing - we are able to get 168 Federal GMM at a price that would really surprise you. You have to be able to afford to practice. How much will you shoot a .338 Lapua at $4 a round? AR platform over M-14 - components change/repair/upgrade is much easier accomplished with a wider variety of options with the AR platform, magazines are less expensive and more plentiful, optics mounting is more robust (with proper mounts) on the AR platform, the rail system on the AR also allows for many of the commonly used accesories on a patrol/entry weapon to be added/taken off as differing situations dicatate. A collapsible stock allows you to adjust for optimal length of pull in different shooting positions. My .02, good luck with your choice as either would be a decent choice, it just seems the newer technology offers a few more user-friendly options. |
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I just talked to the Sgt who is sending me and I was wrong it's not a DM school it a full police sniper school! He was a sniper in the Army and I guess he ordered me and him a new bolt gun in a 338 lapua trying to find out what the make and model is and also the scope.
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Quoted:
So I'm going to be sent to a designated marksmen’s course for my PD and the PD said we can pick whatever rifle and caliber we want . My area is a large area when I think about it we might have shoots up to 500 yards yet I’m guessing most will be in the 100 yard or less range if we are needed! ! I think this class will open your eyes a bit. Please point out one, just one, Police sniping situation in the US that was over 100y, let alone one that was over 200y. 500y for LEO work is fantasy. That being said I'm a big fan of a precision semi-auto. For me there are 3 rifles that fit the bill. AR-10/SR-25 type. They cost more, are bigger, but have the best ability to defeat barriers. However if you want something that is AR-15 sized/weight (and can share spare parts with your 5.56 AR) you'll want something in teh 6.x class. Both 6.x round (the 6.5 & the 6.8 will outperform the 5.56 against barriers and for terminal effectiveness). In the ranges you will be operating (even out to the 500m you specified) the drop between the 3 rounds (7.62x51, 6.5G, 6.8 SPC) is so similar as to be no differences though there is some differences in wind deflection. Ammo cost? Unless you plan on shooting surplus FMJ out of your DM the ammo cost isn't that different. Premium match/sniping loads are fairly similar in price (about $20/box). With .308 having the best availablity, 6.8 next, and 6.5 the least. (that's also the same for magazine availability as well). Personally I went with the 6.8. At the last precision rifle class I went to it performed very well against the .308 bolt guns and the .223 precision rifles (faster followup shots than the bolt guns and the 6.8 would knock down pepper poppers at 400-500M were the .223 would only flake off the paint. I'm sure a 6.5G would have had similar performance. If you're thinking about shooting the rifle beyond 600M then I'd suggest looking hard at the 7.62x51 or the 6.5G as they have higher BC bullets available to them. I'd also suggest getting a LaRue SPR mount with the built in 20MOA slant. |
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Posted this in the LEO area had a few good answers then some not so good ones! I want to take it here because if SHTF be it job or everyday what would u want? My post below So I'm going to be sent to a designated marksmen’s course for my PD and the PD said we can pick whatever rifle and caliber we want . My area is a large area when I think about it we might have shoots up to 500 yards yet I’m guessing most will be in the 100 yard or less range if we are needed! What I’d like to ask is what type of weapon would be best caliber and so on! I know bolt action holds tighter groups and all and I’m all for them with Snipers but I’m going to be only a DM in the Marines it that was someone with a little more training then the rest of the grunts but in no way a sniper. Maybe I’m getting the title wrong? Anyway I’m a 308 fan seen what it has done in Iraq but I’m open to other calibers! Like I said we could have long shots since I live in the open North Dakota but most I’m guessing will be a 100 yards or less! Any advice would help thanks! This is coming from a machine gunner who now is a DM if I pass the class! I'd like to hear your guys advice on this! Since I'm fed I'm looking at getting an M-14 placing a new barrel on it and getting a trigger job the other guy wants to buy a 338 win mag bolt gun. I don't want or think I need that being a DM. Tell me what you all think! Tough question, first things first. Eliminate the .338 from your selection. Great caliber and there are some great rifles that fire it, but if you choose it how will your department feed it ten years from now? Whatever decision you make other will probably have to live with. Also a .338 will require that officer to carry a second long gun (12 Ga/M4) for a regular style shoot out at close ranges. M14's are great weapons but they require some serious work before they can be used in the DM role. The M14 and the M1 Garand where never designed to have a scope mounted to them and the stock set up also present some problems, particularly in cold weather environments. Why not go with an AR10? With a high quality collapsing stock and a 3x9 trijicon scope you'll have a weapon that can be effective at the ranges you've descried. Officers who are familiar with the M4 platform will have an easier transition and you can use cheap(er) .308 surplus for training. |
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I just talked to the Sgt who is sending me and I was wrong it's not a DM school it a full police sniper school! He was a sniper in the Army and I guess he ordered me and him a new bolt gun in a 338 lapua trying to find out what the make and model is and also the scope. 338 Lapua will get the job done I prefer a Rem 700 action, McMillan stock, Krieger barrel chambered in 308, badger ordnance bottom metal, 10 rnd mags, and a Nightforce scope |
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Look at the Savage models. This is from my 308 Savage 10 BAS. However at the end of the day if I had to do it again I would go for the OBR instead. http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/DSC_3338.jpg http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/deer1-1.jpg http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/IMGP7371-1.jpg Wife was doing clays at 300 yards with it today. I hope I'm not in your neck of the woods when SHTF unless you and YOUR WIFE call me in! |
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Look at the Savage models. This is from my 308 Savage 10 BAS. However at the end of the day if I had to do it again I would go for the OBR instead. http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/DSC_3338.jpg http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/deer1-1.jpg http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/IMGP7371-1.jpg Wife was doing clays at 300 yards with it today. I hope I'm not in your neck of the woods when SHTF unless you and YOUR WIFE call me in! One of the local "talk and smoke cigars at the range guys" asked, "How did she do?", while I was cleaning up my gear today. My reply was, "You don't see any clays left, do you?" He is one of these guys that think women should be left at home when hitting the gun range. |
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BS. The M1A was used in the sniper role for many years as the M21 and has been proven. Your typical M1A is very accurate out of the box and needs nothing more than a good scope mount. I carried the MK14 for many months and it had little to no work done. Your comment about the stock being a problem in cold weather is quite incorrect to be polite about it.
OP, 99% of LEO sniping courses are taught within 200 yards while shooting a two in babe across the eyes. Military sniping and civilian law sniping are two different animals. As a cop, you will not be pushing much past that. |
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BS. The M1A was used in the sniper role for many years as the M21 and has been proven. Your typical M1A is very accurate out of the box and needs nothing more than a good scope mount. I carried the MK14 for many months and it had little to no work done. Your comment about the stock being a problem in cold weather is quite incorrect to be polite about it. OP, 99% of LEO sniping courses are taught within 200 yards while shooting a two in babe across the eyes. Military sniping and civilian law sniping are two different animals. As a cop, you will not be pushing much past that. Experience gained as an 18B with 10th SFG we used the 5.56 SPR's, M21 and M24; in the mountains of Colorado during winter training. The weapons were kept in special cases attached to snow mobiles so the weapons would go from hot by being stored next to an engine to sub zero when we took them out with us Several times a day, This caused the stocks to warp and seemed to make the scopes fog up quickly. The weapons shot well and the PEQ lasers had no problems. But the stocks did warp The same phenomenon occurred in Norway when we went there for training. As a former military sniper my advice FWIW is to buy an AR 10 style rifle and carry several different loads of ammo. YMMV |
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In ND I'd recommend a 308semi like a DPMS SASS or REPR 308. Both are good guns, run reliabbly with 20rd 308 PMags, and just remember 308AR's run better with more oil... More than a 556.
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