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Posted: 2/13/2012 11:32:33 PM EDT
Posted this in the LEO area had a few good answers then some not so good ones! I want to take it here because if SHTF be it job or everyday what would u want? My post below



So I'm going to be sent to a designated marksmen’s course for my PD and the PD said we can pick whatever rifle and caliber we want . My area is a large area when I think about it we might have shoots up to 500 yards yet I’m guessing most will be in the 100 yard or less range if we are needed!

What I’d like to ask is what type of weapon would be best caliber and so on! I know bolt action holds tighter groups and all and I’m all for them with Snipers but I’m going to be only a DM in the Marines it that was someone with a little more training then the rest of the grunts but in no way a sniper. Maybe I’m getting the title wrong?

Anyway I’m a 308 fan seen what it has done in Iraq but I’m open to other calibers! Like I said we could have long shots since I live in the open North Dakota but most I’m guessing will be a 100 yards or less! Any advice would help thanks!

This is coming from a machine gunner who now is a DM if I pass the class!



I'd like to hear your guys advice on this! Since I'm fed I'm looking at getting an M-14 placing a new barrel on it and getting a trigger job the other guy wants to buy a 338 win mag bolt gun. I don't want or think I need that being a DM. Tell me what you all think!
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 12:07:50 AM EDT
[#1]
For  the marksman role I would be more inclined to go with an AR10 type rifle .  At the ranges of 500 yards and less that you describe the 308 will "get her done. "  However your buddy talking about the 338 win mag sounds like he is thinking more along the lines of tradional sniping. You may want to ask the people running the school what they recomend for a rifle. Or if you have a prefernce for the M14 then just go that route and make it work for you.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 1:47:44 AM EDT
[#2]
I'd take a look at the Larue OBR. I don't own one, but it would probably fit the bill. Maybe Colt_Sporter will chime in.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 2:03:45 AM EDT
[#3]
After experience with M14 EBRs in the DM role, I would say hell no.

The M14/M1A is a good GP rifle for an armed citizen but it is not a good DM rifle.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 3:44:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
I'd take a look at the Larue OBR. I don't own one, but it would probably fit the bill. Maybe Colt_Sporter will chime in.


Having used Colt_Sporter's  OBR on more then one occasions.   It works as advertised.





Follow the Nike advertisement.    Just Do  It.

Colt_Sporter on the right and I am on the left shooting my Bushmaster doing a situation base pistol/rifle course of fire.









Target above note.    Aiming point is the square.   Two inches (2.1") high is the 200 yard zero of a .308.  


Link Posted: 2/14/2012 4:17:41 AM EDT
[#5]
AR10



Link Posted: 2/14/2012 6:10:10 AM EDT
[#6]


Give your scope one click left.  

Link Posted: 2/14/2012 6:22:33 AM EDT
[#7]
I was a DM in my last unit, and one of the criteria we had was mobility.    In Iraq I was in an urban environment so I ditched the M14 for a 5.56 purpose built SDM rifle.  Getting in and out of vehicles in a hurry was an issue.    I wasn't a DM role in Afghanistan but found that even though a lot of them carried M14 EBR's, most everyone opted out if they had th chance and went with a 5.56 again, or an M110 if they had that option.

A DM doesn't really need to shoot far, just place accurate fire in regular ranges.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 8:21:55 AM EDT
[#8]
No 6.8 SPC love yet in this thread? Basically the same cost of .308, hard hitting, and lighter to carry in the field. Since most of your shooting is within 100 yards and it sounds like you are not planning on shooting out further than 600 yards it would be worth checking out. Use your same lower and swap out with a 5.56 upper for lower cost training/practice ammunition. 68forums dot com will provide you with a wealth of information.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 9:14:30 AM EDT
[#9]
.308 AR platform, for the money I like the LMT MWS

Good platform, uses magpul mags(ie affordable), free floated barrel and monolithic rail system from the factory, very reliable and accurate out Of the box
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 9:48:28 AM EDT
[#10]
So what is a DM for Law Enforcement?  I can see the patrol carbine and the dedicated sniper role but designated marksman seems like a military tasking.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 10:28:15 AM EDT
[#11]
I've completed both the SDM course in the Army and a swat/srt sniper school with at my old PD, also my unit also had the other Army sniper and Air Force CPEC schools at Camp Robinson, and I use to support them  - and can tell ya there is a WORLD of difference between mil. and police sharpshooter schools. At LEO school we never engaged anything beyond 200 meters, didn't do any range estimation and always targeted the 'facial scoring area', where the Army always had us hold center mass and out to 600m.
Honestly a 308 is great all around cartridge, but some PD's ( like the one I'm at now ) doesn't want the liability of over penitration, so issue .223rem. I personally prefer a semi-auto precision rifle, but always get handed a bolt gun. The way it was explained to me, in the polictal world of Police Chiefs, Sheriffs, etc, they usually don't want a "big scary black rifle" to show up in court when Joe Shitbag's family sues everyone, just like they don't like taking shots from extended distances because of the "possible room for error". I personally thing it's a bunch os BS and guess I can see their point. Usually if a sharpshooter has to be deployed, it's because of a barricaded gunman, hostage situation or something like that and there will be dozens of folks around, so where won't be any need to be a million miles away trying to get your guy with a .338lapua when youu'll most likely be 50 feet away from them laying behind a car.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 10:45:33 AM EDT
[#12]
+1 for 6.8 with regards to Semi Auto rifles.  I have mine on order and will start reloading for it shortly.  Dual purpose semi-precision AR platform rifle and deer rifle.  

The .308 semi auto rifles I have handled are much heavier.  If I were a sniper (and I'm not) but if I were a sniper I would stick with a Savage 110 or a Rem 700 with an 18" BBL and AICS detachable magazine
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 1:25:04 PM EDT
[#13]
Scar 17 Sniper Support Rifle
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 3:34:08 PM EDT
[#14]



Quoted:







Give your scope one click left.  



I was shooting in idaho, lots of wind





 
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 3:34:25 PM EDT
[#15]
 





 

 
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 4:12:35 PM EDT
[#16]
If you're talking out to 300 yards take a hard look at the 6.8spc. I have that caliber in an AR I built and it is accurate. It's softer shooting than the .308. But if you're going to be shooting past 300 yards and want that knock down power, then the .308. I shot a big hog last summer with my 6.8spc using Barnes 95gr TTSX at 225 yards and it went down hard right in its footprints. The 6.8 definitely has its place.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 4:17:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd take a look at the Larue OBR. I don't own one, but it would probably fit the bill. Maybe Colt_Sporter will chime in.


Having used Colt_Sporter's  OBR on more then one occasions.   It works as advertised.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/IMGP8648.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/IMGP8668.jpg

Follow the Nike advertisement.    Just Do  It.

Colt_Sporter on the right and I am on the left shooting my Bushmaster doing a situation base pistol/rifle course of fire.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/Rangecopy.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/nikon2011reducedsize729.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/nikon2011reducedsize727.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/obrgood1correct.jpg

Target above note.    Aiming point is the square.   Two inches (2.1") high is the 200 yard zero of a .308.  


Great pics...gotta love the multi- cam!

Link Posted: 2/14/2012 4:59:45 PM EDT
[#18]
OBR's are nice. Not gonna lie; my 556 version came with a .338" five shot group. This being said, if I was going to be making shots at less than 100 yards I'd be looking at the "Lite" version. The OBR heavy is well...heavy. And depending how far you may have lug it, could be a burden

6.8 spc is nice, but keep in mind, your have to buy everything specific everything to 6.8, bolt, bbl, mag etc. For me getting a 6.8 is like buying a whole new gun platform, not just another AR. With something like the OBR lite, you could use any of your mags in a pinch or an oh shit emergency.

AR-10's are nice. I used to own one, but nobdoy matches LaRue's customer service, period.

If you have specific questions about the OBR, shoot me an IM, I'll do my best to answer em.

In the mean time, everyone loves pics.



Link Posted: 2/14/2012 10:12:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Since you said you weren't going to be a sniper, I'm not sure what the DM role would be, except ad hoc sniper if SWAT can't get there in time.  Not knowing what you'd really be doing, I'd lean towards the 338 Lapua since it can execute against a target center of mass even with body armor.  And of course it is a better anti-material round - eg successfully stop a vehicle.

If neither of those would be in your mission, I'd lean towards an AR which can take heavy 80gr 5.56.

Link Posted: 2/14/2012 10:52:38 PM EDT
[#20]




Quoted:

For the marksman role I would be more inclined to go with an AR10 type rifle . At the ranges of 500 yards and less that you describe the 308 will "get her done. " However your buddy talking about the 338 win mag sounds like he is thinking more along the lines of tradional sniping. You may want to ask the people running the school what they recomend for a rifle. Or if you have a prefernce for the M14 then just go that route and make it work for you.


I love my LMT MWS!!! It outshoots me, big time!

Link Posted: 2/15/2012 6:09:18 AM EDT
[#21]
I have a 16" Larue OBR with a magpul ctr stock on it.  My personal recommendation would be for a QUALITY .308 semi-auto in the AR pattern.  There are several benefits over the M-14 - the main two being magazines and optics mounting advantages.  The military started using them (again) because - they needed a heavier hitting weapon than the 5.56 AND they had M-14's in inventory.  Your larger calibers are going to be underutilized at the distances you have indicated.

16" barrel benefits - maneuverability and will still provide accuracy (my best 5 shot group with the OBR and Federal GMM at 100 yards has been just under 1/2" center to center), bolt gun or AR platform go with the shorter barrel (for bolt gun, I believe FNH has a 16" detachable magazine model, not sure on accuarcy though)

.308 over other calibers - besides the obvious potential use against criminals, what about animals in your A/O?  Bear, moose, elk - a .308 with Federal bonded trophy bear claw (don't have the model number handy) would perform very well in this role - giving a decided advantage over 5.56 - Check to see if your department can order off state bid pricing - we are able to get 168 Federal GMM at a price that would really surprise you.  You have to be able to afford to practice.  How much will you shoot a .338 Lapua at $4 a round?

AR platform over M-14 - components change/repair/upgrade is much easier accomplished with a wider variety of options with the AR platform, magazines are less expensive and more plentiful, optics mounting is more robust (with proper mounts) on the AR platform, the rail system on the AR also allows for many of the commonly used accesories on a patrol/entry weapon to be added/taken off as differing situations dicatate.  A collapsible stock allows you to adjust for optimal length of pull in different shooting positions.

My .02, good luck with your choice as either would be a decent choice, it just seems the newer technology offers a few more user-friendly options.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 4:13:46 AM EDT
[#22]
I just talked to the Sgt who is sending me and I was wrong it's not a DM school it a full police sniper school! He was a sniper in the Army and I guess he ordered me and him a new bolt gun in a 338 lapua trying to find out what the make and model is and also the scope.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:20:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 11:06:07 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Posted this in the LEO area had a few good answers then some not so good ones! I want to take it here because if SHTF be it job or everyday what would u want? My post below



So I'm going to be sent to a designated marksmen’s course for my PD and the PD said we can pick whatever rifle and caliber we want . My area is a large area when I think about it we might have shoots up to 500 yards yet I’m guessing most will be in the 100 yard or less range if we are needed!

What I’d like to ask is what type of weapon would be best caliber and so on! I know bolt action holds tighter groups and all and I’m all for them with Snipers but I’m going to be only a DM in the Marines it that was someone with a little more training then the rest of the grunts but in no way a sniper. Maybe I’m getting the title wrong?

Anyway I’m a 308 fan seen what it has done in Iraq but I’m open to other calibers! Like I said we could have long shots since I live in the open North Dakota but most I’m guessing will be a 100 yards or less! Any advice would help thanks!

This is coming from a machine gunner who now is a DM if I pass the class!



  I'd like to hear your guys advice on this! Since I'm fed I'm looking at getting an M-14 placing a new barrel on it and getting a trigger job the other guy wants to buy a 338 win mag bolt gun. I don't want or think I need that being a DM. Tell me what you all think!



Tough question, first things first.

  Eliminate the .338 from your selection. Great caliber and there are some great rifles that fire it, but if you choose it how will your department feed it ten years from now? Whatever decision you make other will probably have to live with. Also a .338 will require that officer to carry a second long gun (12 Ga/M4) for a regular style shoot out at close ranges.

  M14's are great weapons but they require some serious work before they can be used in the DM role. The M14 and the M1 Garand where never designed to have a scope mounted to them and the stock set up also present some problems, particularly in cold weather environments.

 Why not go with an AR10? With a high quality collapsing stock and a 3x9 trijicon scope you'll have a weapon that can be effective at the ranges you've descried. Officers who are familiar with the M4 platform will have an easier transition and you can use cheap(er) .308 surplus for training.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 11:38:47 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I just talked to the Sgt who is sending me and I was wrong it's not a DM school it a full police sniper school! He was a sniper in the Army and I guess he ordered me and him a new bolt gun in a 338 lapua trying to find out what the make and model is and also the scope.


338 Lapua will get the job done

I prefer a Rem 700 action, McMillan stock, Krieger barrel chambered in 308, badger ordnance bottom metal, 10 rnd mags, and a Nightforce scope
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 3:23:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Look at the Savage models.    This is from my 308 Savage 10 BAS.     However at the end of the day if I had to do it again I would go for the OBR instead.





Wife was doing clays at 300 yards with it today.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 3:31:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Look at the Savage models.    This is from my 308 Savage 10 BAS.     However at the end of the day if I had to do it again I would go for the OBR instead.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/DSC_3338.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/deer1-1.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/IMGP7371-1.jpg

Wife was doing clays at 300 yards with it today.


I hope I'm not in your neck of the woods when SHTF unless you and YOUR WIFE call me in!
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 6:19:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Look at the Savage models.    This is from my 308 Savage 10 BAS.     However at the end of the day if I had to do it again I would go for the OBR instead.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/DSC_3338.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/deer1-1.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/flytosail/IMGP7371-1.jpg

Wife was doing clays at 300 yards with it today.


I hope I'm not in your neck of the woods when SHTF unless you and YOUR WIFE call me in!


One of the local "talk and smoke cigars at the range guys" asked, "How did she do?", while I was cleaning up my gear today.    My reply was, "You don't see any clays left, do you?"    

He is one of these guys that think women should be left at home when hitting the gun range.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:15:15 PM EDT
[#29]
BS.  The M1A was used in the sniper role for many years as the M21 and has been proven.  Your typical M1A is very accurate out of the box and needs nothing more than a good scope mount.  I carried the MK14 for many months and it had little to no work done.  Your comment about the stock being a problem in cold weather is quite incorrect to be polite about it.  

OP, 99% of LEO sniping courses are taught within 200 yards while shooting a two in babe across the eyes.  Military sniping and civilian law sniping are two different animals.  As a cop, you will not be pushing much past that.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:03:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
BS.  The M1A was used in the sniper role for many years as the M21 and has been proven.  Your typical M1A is very accurate out of the box and needs nothing more than a good scope mount.  I carried the MK14 for many months and it had little to no work done.  Your comment about the stock being a problem in cold weather is quite incorrect to be polite about it.  

OP, 99% of LEO sniping courses are taught within 200 yards while shooting a two in babe across the eyes.  Military sniping and civilian law sniping are two different animals.  As a cop, you will not be pushing much past that.


Experience gained as an 18B with 10th SFG we used the 5.56 SPR's, M21 and M24; in the mountains of Colorado during winter training. The weapons were kept in special cases attached to snow mobiles so the weapons would go from hot by being stored next to an engine to sub zero when we took them out with us Several times a day, This caused the stocks to warp and seemed to make the scopes fog up quickly. The weapons shot well and the PEQ lasers had no problems. But the stocks did warp

The same phenomenon occurred in Norway  when we went there for training.

As a former military sniper my advice FWIW is to buy an AR 10 style rifle and carry several different loads of ammo.

YMMV
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 3:56:57 AM EDT
[#31]
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