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Posted: 8/11/2011 6:47:41 PM EDT
If you had a fallout/underground secret shelter would you be tight lipped about it or not.
I for one couldn't help but tell all of my friends. I wouldn't advertise it to the world but it would be far too cool to keep to myself!
Link Posted: 8/11/2011 6:53:11 PM EDT
[#1]
The more people you tell is going to be exponential to the number of people you will have to fight off when the SHTF.
Link Posted: 8/11/2011 6:56:43 PM EDT
[#2]
If I had my way, I would buy or build a culvert shelter at some location away from my home.  Wait for the neighbors to go on vacation, then bring in the excavator and dig the hole.  Flatbed truck and crane, get the shelter in the hole, backfill around the shelter, camoflage the entrance before the neighbors get home.  Tell them I needed septic work, if they even ask.

OPSEC = tell no one, see The Twilight Zone episode "The Shelter" for the reason why.


Steve
Link Posted: 8/11/2011 7:18:36 PM EDT
[#3]
If you tell people, why bother building it?  You'll end up barricaded in it while you burn to death as they try to smoke you out.
Link Posted: 8/11/2011 8:10:44 PM EDT
[#4]
If you intend to hide in the shelter you're not planning on a OPeration to SECure, so there is no OPSEC.
Refraining from communicating about your shelter is COMunications SECurity = COMSEC.
Many people would benefit from learning the difference, since posting on an open innernet forum can be a breach of COMSEC.
Link Posted: 8/11/2011 8:53:20 PM EDT
[#5]
It would be my best kept secret. I would not tell anyone right away, but if a situation were to come up were I would be using it I would grab my immediate family and bring them with me.

Telling one person leads to them telling one, then 2-4-8-16-etc etc.
Even granny would have a chance of bringing it up casually in a conversation.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 12:33:48 AM EDT
[#6]
There should be an OPSEC thread started and stickied.

OPSEC is, in my own humble opinion, the #1 most-important concept to study and put into practice. If you want to keep your family and your preps safe, the less you tell others about it, the better.

Yes, a thread devoted to the principles of good OPSEC would benefit us all.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 12:51:24 AM EDT
[#7]
Tell no one.

Deny till you die.

Pretty amazing what you can do if you just learn when to STFU and how to conceal your "movements".
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 1:39:50 AM EDT
[#8]
A whole lot of people know I'm a prepper/survivalist.  I make no secret of it.  In fact, I try to preach the benefits and convert those I can.  Many people know that I've set some things back.



Nobody knows where any of it is.  Well, the guy who helped me put it up, who's currently on a six year tour in Germany  I figure that secret's good for at least the next six years.


Link Posted: 8/12/2011 2:05:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
If you had a fallout/underground secret shelter would you be tight lipped about it or not.
I for one couldn't help but tell all of my friends. I wouldn't advertise it to the world but it would be far too cool to keep to myself!

before SHTF happens, you will be a target of thieves.
if/when SHTF happens, you will have a lot of unwanted guests.

i hope you have planned for all that.

btw, telling all of your friends is the same as advertising it to the world.

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 2:39:17 AM EDT
[#10]
My dad used to quote Ben Franklin "3 may keep a secret, if 2 are dead".  Other than those you PLAN to share the facility with I wouldn't say a word.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:02:35 AM EDT
[#11]
+1
I would only tell family immediately before heading there.  I would give them specific directions to an offsite location then bring them in myself watching for observers the whole time.


Quoted:
It would be my best kept secret. I would not tell anyone right away, but if a situation were to come up were I would be using it I would grab my immediate family and bring them with me.

Telling one person leads to them telling one, then 2-4-8-16-etc etc.
Even granny would have a chance of bringing it up casually in a conversation.


Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:12:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Watch the Twilight Zone episode "The Shelter"



It's on Netflix
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:26:12 AM EDT
[#13]
I have a couple friends that have concealed safe rooms built into their basements. They keep most of their weapons, ammo, and preps in those rooms. The only people that know of their room/preps are their like-minded friends. Effective COMSEC seems sufficient. As a member of ARFCOM I love boomsticks, but I will never talk about them with a stranger (ie: join a random conversation). Just shut up and talk about the weather or get them ranting about the Cleveland Browns/Indians/Cavs...
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:50:15 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
If you intend to hide in the shelter you're not planning on a OPeration to SECure, so there is no OPSEC.
Refraining from communicating about your shelter is COMunications SECurity = COMSEC.
Many people would benefit from learning the difference, since posting on an open innernet forum can be a breach of COMSEC.


OPSEC = Operational Security or, alternatively, Operations Security. In this usage, OPSEC is doctrinally correct.


On topic, I would only tell those who would be utilizing the shelter. No one else reall has a need to know about it and it would only attract attention.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 8:15:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Are you joking???
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 9:35:36 AM EDT
[#16]


I think you'll be one of the most popular dead guys in town after TEOTWAWKI.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 10:00:00 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
If you intend to hide in the shelter you're not planning on a OPeration to SECure, so there is no OPSEC.
Refraining from communicating about your shelter is COMunications SECurity = COMSEC.
Many people would benefit from learning the difference, since posting on an open innernet forum can be a breach of COMSEC.

for example, you.

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar530-1.pdf

Army Regulation 530-1 Operations and Signal Security Operations Security (OPSEC)
...
1-5. Definitions a. Operations security (OPSEC).
(1) As defined in DOD Directive (DODD) 5205.02, OPSEC is a process of identifying critical information and subsequently analyzing friendly actions attendant to military operations and other activities to:
(a) Identify those actions that can be observed by adversary intelligence systems.
(b) Determine indicators that hostile intelligence systems might obtain that could be interpreted or pieced together to derive critical information in time to be useful to adversaries.
(c) Select and execute measures that eliminate or reduce to an acceptable level the vulnerabilities of friendly actions to adversary exploitation.
(2) Operations security protects critical information from adversary observation and collection in ways that traditional security programs cannot. While these programs such as information security protect classified information, they cannot prevent all indicators of critical information, especially unclassified indicators, from being revealed.
(3) In concise terms, the OPSEC process identifies the critical information of military plans, operations, and supporting activities and the indicators that can reveal it, and then develops measures to eliminate, reduce, or conceal those indicators.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_security
Operations security (OPSEC) is a process that identifies critical information to determine if friendly actions can be observed by adversary intelligence systems, determines if information obtained by adversaries could be interpreted to be useful to them, and then executes selected measures that eliminate or reduce adversary exploitation of friendly critical information.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_security
Communications security (COMSEC) is the discipline of preventing unauthorized interceptors from accessing telecommunications in an intelligible form, while still delivering content to the intended recipients. In the United States Department of Defense culture, it is often referred to by the portmanteau or abbreviation COMSEC. The field includes cryptosecurity, transmission security, emission security, traffic-flow security. and physical security of COMSEC equipment.


ar-jedi

Link Posted: 8/12/2011 10:04:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Best keep the info distribution to a minimum.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 10:24:38 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
If you intend to hide in the shelter you're not planning on a OPeration to SECure, so there is no OPSEC.
Refraining from communicating about your shelter is COMunications SECurity = COMSEC.
Many people would benefit from learning the difference, since posting on an open innernet forum can be a breach of COMSEC.


Protectioning the security  of the operation (or at least details of it) (having a shelter) is OPSEC This 90% human.
If we reduce the operation to nothing but documents or ideas, this could be INFOSEC, but OPSEC tends to be much broader, and more on the concept of limiting the flow of information
Protecting the shelter itself against breakin, attack or destruction is Physical Security or Force Protection (ie Guns guards and gates)
Protecting the communication channel from you to you neighbor against evesdropping, or spoofing  is COMSEC .This is 90% technical

In the case of a large organization, you need all three.

There is no COMSEC on posting on AR-15.com.  Even the NSA has a web presence.  The key is maintaining OPSEC/INFOSEC by not releasing information that needs  protecting, or when combined with other information can be revealing.  Avoiding the net is a better option, but then you limit your effectiveness ether a a survivalist or NSA employee.

This gets drilled into everyone with a security clearance every year.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 10:46:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 10:54:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Nobody would know. However I would create a one-use spare account on arf to post pics
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 11:00:27 AM EDT
[#22]
I would even bury the construction crew underneath it.

Just kidding!

I would tell family and friends but since I am already known as the "gun guy" they would already be stopping by.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 1:06:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Just watched the recommended Twilight Zone Shelter episode. The only thing that I got out of it was that my shelter door needs to have a gunner slot in it!
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 1:25:43 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm struggling right now whether to tell even my family where the stuff is.  Seriously.



I'm thinking of leaving a note in the gun safe telling them where to look in the event of my demise, not that I've had much luck getting the kids (to use the term loosely) to learn how to use it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 3:11:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Dont laugh, it happens.

Not gona say any names or details but a aquantance i knew was in a auto crash and had left papers in with his hunting guns, the "only Guns" he had, least thats what his wife thought. She called me bout a month after his funeral asking if i could come over and Help her with his hunting stuff He shot over and under shotguns and ducks/water foul and i had no clue what she would want from me, wasnt my thing.

Come to find out after cleaning up his stuff she had found a letter telling whover to look in x,y,z places for things he'd stored away. I was greeted by her saying there were machine guns in her basment walls

He had hid 2 ar15's (oly's to be specific) and some other misc bolt action 22's and ammo and ect,ect. He had walled them/drywalled them right up in the basement he had refinished.  no doors or anything. i suspect there was some $$$ hidden as well as other stuffbut just left it alone, didnt really want to discus that but the bottom of his note said sorry dear (wife) /  ****** (BROTHER) BUT i didnt tell ANYONE because no one could keep there mouth shut.

yea i know Cool story or whatever, but it was kinda creepy at the time but now....
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 4:10:39 PM EDT
[#26]
The number of people who would know about something like that would be kept to an absolute minimum.
There would be people with a seat in there who would not know about it until directed to sit down.
Were i to have such a place, i would have built it myself, so there would be no people involved in the process to concern myself with.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 4:42:37 PM EDT
[#27]
wrong.  

Quoted:
If you intend to hide in the shelter you're not planning on a OPeration to SECure, so there is no OPSEC.
Refraining from communicating about your shelter is COMunications SECurity = COMSEC.
Many people would benefit from learning the difference, since posting on an open innernet forum can be a breach of COMSEC.


Link Posted: 8/12/2011 4:52:49 PM EDT
[#28]
lol I just checked the first page, everything I could ever dream of saying and more was already said
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:26:04 PM EDT
[#29]
.

Don't tell anybody who doesn't NEED to know.  Your need to share the information isn't generally a good reason to so do.

Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:58:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
There is no COMSEC on posting on AR-15.com.  


You got that part right.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 6:02:16 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is no COMSEC on posting on AR-15.com.  

You got that part right.

you don't even know what COMSEC is!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/649150_Underground_Secret_Shelter_OPSEC.html&page=1#i11073094

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 6:02:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
wrong.  

Quoted:
If you intend to hide in the shelter you're not planning on a OPeration to SECure, so there is no OPSEC.
Refraining from communicating about your shelter is COMunications SECurity = COMSEC.
Many people would benefit from learning the difference, since posting on an open innernet forum can be a breach of COMSEC.




Apparently you don't know the difference between an OPeration and a COMmunication.
This is common with those who have never been involved in an operation.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 6:03:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Apparently you don't know the difference between an OPeration and a COMmunication.
This is common with those who have never been involved in an operation.

EPIC.  

day 1.

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 8/12/2011 6:06:26 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is no COMSEC on posting on AR-15.com.  

You got that part right.

you don't even know what COMSEC is!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/649150_Underground_Secret_Shelter_OPSEC.html&page=1#i11073094

ar-jedi


You are really amusing. Wiki? Really?
Carry on. You're a real "jedi", just like in the movies.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 6:14:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
You are really amusing. Wiki? Really?
Carry on. You're a real "jedi", just like in the movies.

rebutting with a personal attack, especially regarding something as trivial as an ARFCOM user name, is a sure sign you have already exhausted any sort of rational and cohesive argument.

notwithstanding that, please now explain to all of us your definitions of OPSEC and COMSEC, and how they differ.

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 6:22:27 PM EDT
[#36]
.

Just remember, the first one to compare the other to Hitler automatically loses the argument.  


Link Posted: 8/12/2011 6:57:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
notwithstanding that, please now explain to all of us your definitions of OPSEC and COMSEC, and how they differ.


I shouldn't have to instruct a jedi knight in basic subjects, but since you asked:
COMSEC involves securing communications or safeguarding information. It could mean using encrypted communications. It could mean refraining from communicating information - "Loose lips sink ships" is a time worn example.
When an operation is planned or when an operation is occurring, COMSEC is a subset of OPSEC. As examples, before it occurs one refrains from discussing the operation with those who have no need to know. As another example, while it is occuring, one tries to prevent those without a need to know (or the opposing force!) from listening in on necessary communications.
When an operation is completed, COMSEC is refraining from communicating with those without a need to know about the operation. In other words COMSEC can begin before an operation starts and continue both during the operation and well after the operation is over.

To give a specific example, building a shelter is an operation. Concealing the fact that you are building a shelter is an example of OPSEC. Refraining from communicating  to those who have no need to know the fact that you have built the shelter once it is complete is COMSEC.
Or to make it simpler - while on patrol avoiding being seen is OPSEC. Keeping one's mouth shut about the planned route of the patrol before hand or maintaining radio silence/using only encrypted radio communications during the patrol is COMSEC.
In other words, OPSEC is about doing - (OPERATING). COMSEC is about (not) talking (COMMUNICATING) about what you do or intend to do or sometimes, what you have done.
This ain't rocket science for anyone who can distinguish between doing and talking about doing.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 6:58:55 PM EDT
[#38]

IBTFC  (In Before The Force-Choke)  
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:02:32 PM EDT
[#39]



Quoted:






I think you'll be one of the most popular dead guys in town after TEOTWAWKI.


No kidding!



 
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:23:08 PM EDT
[#40]
No.  Not in the US government (DOD, Civilian, DOE and NRC) and not in other NATO countries.

OPSEC is keeping some program/information/plans/readiness from being revealed.  A typical example is not listing a communications room or emergency generator on the building directory.  You really need a building directory, but highly sensitive areas that don't expect visitors should be left off. In the exterme, maybe the directory goes.  None of this is actually classified (99.99% of the time).  Similarly if you have undercover vehicles, you don't park them out fron in spaces marked "reserved for official vehicles"  If Delta force deployees, you don't want all the wives havign a girls night out at the local male strip joint.  Loose lips sink ships is the perfect example of OPSEC.  Or the media watching for the lights on late at the white house.

COMSEC is securing the channel, including authiniticating  the remote user.  Typical COMSEC might be encryption of phone, text, fax or radio messages, user of SIPRnet, red vs black phone systems..  GPS key material and radar IFF codes are typically considered COMSEC also.  COMSEC doesn't  prevent (in most cases) sharing of knowledge, it just ensures that the user is only sharing it with the person they intend to, and even that can be weak in some cases.  I remember installing a STU-III in a government official's house, only to find his wife kept the CIK in the kitchen drawer.  With the phone on the desk, and the CIK inserted, anyone calling would see their display show top secret and the officials name.


COMSEC is kind of a narrow field practiced by geeks for the use of others.  Security of hand carried documents, flash drives, stored documents, verbal conversations, etc is usually considered INFOSEC.



Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:46:34 PM EDT
[#41]
.

Anybody else remember when a CEOI became an SOI?

Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:46:55 PM EDT
[#42]
In before the lock
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 8:48:36 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
If you had a fallout/underground secret shelter would you be tight lipped about it or not.
I for one couldn't help but tell all of my friends. I wouldn't advertise it to the world but it would be far too cool to keep to myself!


Good thing you don't have a security clearance
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 9:30:55 PM EDT
[#44]
I would tell a select few.  My girlfriend (someone has to carry that shit down the stairs) and my best friend and his wife.  Depending on where it was built 2 more people might be told.

On the other hand I would never talk about it on line.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 12:00:23 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
notwithstanding that, please now explain to all of us your definitions of OPSEC and COMSEC, and how they differ.


I shouldn't have to instruct a jedi knight in basic subjects, but since you asked:
COMSEC involves securing communications or safeguarding information. It could mean using encrypted communications. It could mean refraining from communicating information - "Loose lips sink ships" is a time worn example.
When an operation is planned or when an operation is occurring, COMSEC is a subset of OPSEC. As examples, before it occurs one refrains from discussing the operation with those who have no need to know. As another example, while it is occuring, one tries to prevent those without a need to know (or the opposing force!) from listening in on necessary communications.
When an operation is completed, COMSEC is refraining from communicating with those without a need to know about the operation. In other words COMSEC can begin before an operation starts and continue both during the operation and well after the operation is over.

To give a specific example, building a shelter is an operation. Concealing the fact that you are building a shelter is an example of OPSEC. Refraining from communicating  to those who have no need to know the fact that you have built the shelter once it is complete is COMSEC.
Or to make it simpler - while on patrol avoiding being seen is OPSEC. Keeping one's mouth shut about the planned route of the patrol before hand or maintaining radio silence/using only encrypted radio communications during the patrol is COMSEC.
In other words, OPSEC is about doing - (OPERATING). COMSEC is about (not) talking (COMMUNICATING) about what you do or intend to do or sometimes, what you have done.
This ain't rocket science for anyone who can distinguish between doing and talking about doing.

that's what i thought –– you don't have any idea what you are talking about, and have definitively shown that you have no formal training in this domain.  you know neither what OPSEC nor COMSEC is, and your definitions/examples above are incorrect.

ar-jedi












Link Posted: 8/13/2011 5:07:22 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

- snip -






Link Posted: 8/13/2011 5:57:25 AM EDT
[#47]
I voted not to show or tell.  I don't try to convert anyone to be preppers or survivalists.  

I like to maintain OP/COM-SEC.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 7:00:30 AM EDT
[#48]
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 7:00:50 AM EDT
[#49]
Locked to preserve OPSEC
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