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Posted: 4/27/2016 12:07:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2016 12:20:41 AM EDT by Zak-Smith]
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 12:21:05 AM EDT
Way cool setup.

I'm digging that solar panel. Specs / Mfgr on that?
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 1:04:06 AM EDT
Neat. How much are those repeaters and how much power do they put out?
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 1:24:28 AM EDT
That's really neat.
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 1:41:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 1:45:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 7:02:32 AM EDT
Nice, DMR does have advantages over analog, though in marginal areas analog can be better. Are you running dual mode (Analog/Digital?)

I take it you went Itinerant on the freqs?

What type of time are you getting on the solar with traffic, what is the traffic levels you expect?

We run UHF and did some major improvements on our system and height is the answer on range as it should be. We are seeing portables doing 15-20 miles full quiet, with maybe an S3 noise level inside aluminum sided homes and basements at the same distance.

Nice setup. The DMR has to be amazing to hear.
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 12:10:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 2:01:34 PM EDT
That is freakin' cool. Nice job, thanks for sharing.
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 2:42:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2016 2:50:37 PM EDT by zapzap]
Awesome. As stated you can fairly easily network several repeaters together via a private wireless IP network. If going that way, I'd highly recommend Ubiquiti for radios (Rocket M series with RF Elements dishes are what I'd perform the backhauling with).

Also, may be worth checking out the Simoco Linx 200 (supposedly back in stock around June). Low cost Tier II only radio (32 channel with a 16 position rotary).

ASRM, did I ever tell you that I saw a 35% coverage increase on a XPR8400 (176W ERP) over a wideband Micor (176W ERP). Both had the antennas at the same location and height.
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 3:23:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By zapzap:
Awesome. As stated you can fairly easily network several repeaters together via a private wireless IP network. If going that way, I'd highly recommend Ubiquiti for radios (Rocket M series with RF Elements dishes are what I'd perform the backhauling with).

Also, may be worth checking out the Simoco Linx 200 (supposedly back in stock around June). Low cost Tier II only radio (32 channel with a 16 position rotary).

ASRM, did I ever tell you that I saw a 35% coverage increase on a XPR8400 (176W ERP) over a wideband Micor (176W ERP). Both had the antennas at the same location and height.
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I recall you had said you saw a bit better coverage. 35% is a marked difference!
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 3:23:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
The repeater can operate in simultaneous dual analog/digital mode, however we have that disabled right now.

I don't have the calculations handy at the moment but for the most conservative I believe we ran a 30% duty cycle (wildly overestimated) and the solar and batteries were rated to keep it up indefinitely
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That is pretty amazing! I like that result.
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 5:10:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ASRM:


That is pretty amazing! I like that result.
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Originally Posted By ASRM:
Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
The repeater can operate in simultaneous dual analog/digital mode, however we have that disabled right now.

I don't have the calculations handy at the moment but for the most conservative I believe we ran a 30% duty cycle (wildly overestimated) and the solar and batteries were rated to keep it up indefinitely


That is pretty amazing! I like that result.


I'm really gonna have to tell you about the P25 repeater I'm working on...
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 7:11:53 PM EDT
Zak,

Absolutely Killer setup.

Question, are you running any Hytera HT's along with the system? If so, the capabilities of your system can be fully unleashed.

I have nothing but positive things to say about both Hytera, and DMR.

While my project is based on the RD982, the setup you've got looks to be about as ideal as possible. And will be far more portable than the setup I'm working on.

What are you running, battery-wise?
Link Posted: 4/27/2016 8:03:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2016 4:02:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2016 9:41:46 PM EDT
I forget where I saw it, but a dude used an extension on his trailer hitch to mount a military guy pole/antenna mast. That would be badass for your setup.
Link Posted: 5/1/2016 1:37:53 PM EDT
dammit - now you have me thinking about DMR instead of D-Star...
Link Posted: 5/1/2016 2:43:14 PM EDT
Do it, and don't look back.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
dammit - now you have me thinking about DMR instead of D-Star...
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Link Posted: 5/1/2016 4:27:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Do it, and don't look back.


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Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Do it, and don't look back.

Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
dammit - now you have me thinking about DMR instead of D-Star...




Yup
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 12:50:29 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By gcw:



Yup
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Originally Posted By gcw:
Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Do it, and don't look back.

Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
dammit - now you have me thinking about DMR instead of D-Star...




Yup
Don't get me wrong. I think my 51a+ is a great radio. I just haven't had such good luck actually talking to anyone on D-Star. :-/
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 1:14:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Don't get me wrong. I think my 51a+ is a great radio. I just haven't had such good luck actually talking to anyone on D-Star. :-/
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Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Originally Posted By gcw:
Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Do it, and don't look back.

Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
dammit - now you have me thinking about DMR instead of D-Star...




Yup
Don't get me wrong. I think my 51a+ is a great radio. I just haven't had such good luck actually talking to anyone on D-Star. :-/

There's only one d-star repeater around here, and the crowd that hangs out on it is definitely one that I don't want to talk to.
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 2:12:36 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By phurba:

There's only one d-star repeater around here, and the crowd that hangs out on it is definitely one that I don't want to talk to.
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Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Originally Posted By gcw:
Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Do it, and don't look back.

Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
dammit - now you have me thinking about DMR instead of D-Star...

Yup
Don't get me wrong. I think my 51a+ is a great radio. I just haven't had such good luck actually talking to anyone on D-Star. :-/

There's only one d-star repeater around here, and the crowd that hangs out on it is definitely one that I don't want to talk to.
Opposite here. DMR repeaters are filled with gear queers and people jacking each other off about audio fidelity. I've been running a DVMega as a MMDVM host along with a TYT-390 for about 2 weeks now. I like DMR but it needs a major amateur radio company to get behind it. Someone needs to get out there like ICOM did with D-Star and sell it.
D-Star might inferior but it's got a huge user base, a shit ton of ways to use it including a very healthy market for smaller manufactures, the reflectors especially in the case of XRF can run a lot of traffic despite how many connected systems are linked, and it's a smidgen easier to use than DMR (not by much).
Plus, all the work in Europe to bridge D-Star and DMR is making the arguments between the 2 formats almost a nonissue except on a very localized basis.


Look at Kenwood. They sell DMR radios in the UK. There is no reason they couldn't put together a offering for the US amateur market but instead if rumors are correct, Kenwood is releasing a triband D-Star HT at Dayton this year. I'm really looking forward to this because it'll have 220. 220 is quiet and perfect for an older digital mode like D-Star.

TL;DR
I like DMR. It's been cool to experiment with but it needs time and a major amateur manufacture to support it before it makes any big waves. Hopefully it's not Yaesu.
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 2:22:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 2:23:05 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Don't get me wrong. I think my 51a+ is a great radio. I just haven't had such good luck actually talking to anyone on D-Star. :-/
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Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Originally Posted By gcw:
Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Do it, and don't look back.

Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
dammit - now you have me thinking about DMR instead of D-Star...




Yup
Don't get me wrong. I think my 51a+ is a great radio. I just haven't had such good luck actually talking to anyone on D-Star. :-/
You ain't trying that hard. I can scare up a call on REF001C anytime day or night. The same with 12A or 30C. Now if we're throwing just repeaters into the equation by themselves? Yup, no one is coming back to answer any call I put out unless it's Sunday night and then it's because there is a net to check into.

Link Posted: 5/2/2016 2:29:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By kinglou0:
TL;DR
I like DMR. It's been cool to experiment with but it needs time and a major amateur manufacture to support it before it makes any big waves. Hopefully it's not Yaesu.
View Quote

I'm not commenting about the tech or snobbery. It was a conventional repeater before it went d-star.
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 2:30:49 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:

Well, that's HAM for ya right there.

A lot of the problems with HAM radio is that it's amateur. Once you get it set up, you can't actually do anything useful with it* -- in the majority of cases anyway. Now that I have a couple buddies with Tech licenses we can use the repeaters along the front range on car trips, but that's about it. I've used my HAM license more testing out viability of different systems and capabilities of radios (all in amateur compliance) that I would later go on to use for something "real", which in most cases, is expressly forbidden by amateur rules. Not saying it should necessarily be any different, but there you go....

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Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
filled with gear queers and people jacking each other off

Well, that's HAM for ya right there.

A lot of the problems with HAM radio is that it's amateur. Once you get it set up, you can't actually do anything useful with it* -- in the majority of cases anyway. Now that I have a couple buddies with Tech licenses we can use the repeaters along the front range on car trips, but that's about it. I've used my HAM license more testing out viability of different systems and capabilities of radios (all in amateur compliance) that I would later go on to use for something "real", which in most cases, is expressly forbidden by amateur rules. Not saying it should necessarily be any different, but there you go....

I get more out of this hobby by experimenting than I do catching up on the local bunion reports. Don't get me wrong though. When I need a local recommendation on a restaurant, the guys on the local 2m repeaters never let me down
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 2:34:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By phurba:

I'm not commenting about the tech or snobbery. It was a conventional repeater before it went d-star.
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Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By kinglou0:
TL;DR
I like DMR. It's been cool to experiment with but it needs time and a major amateur manufacture to support it before it makes any big waves. Hopefully it's not Yaesu.

I'm not commenting about the tech or snobbery. It was a conventional repeater before it went d-star.
Well, that was dumb.

Should have left it the way it was. No reason to even put up dedicated D-Star repeaters these days with the explosion in DV4Mini's, DVMega's, etc.
I might not like hanging out on repeaters but there are plenty that do. No reason to alienate anyone.
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 2:38:51 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By kinglou0:
Well, that was dumb.

Should have left it the way it was. No reason to even put up dedicated D-Star repeaters these days with the explosion in DV4Mini's, DVMega's, etc.
I might not like hanging out on repeaters but there are plenty that do. No reason to alienate anyone.
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Originally Posted By kinglou0:
Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By kinglou0:
TL;DR
I like DMR. It's been cool to experiment with but it needs time and a major amateur manufacture to support it before it makes any big waves. Hopefully it's not Yaesu.

I'm not commenting about the tech or snobbery. It was a conventional repeater before it went d-star.
Well, that was dumb.

Should have left it the way it was. No reason to even put up dedicated D-Star repeaters these days with the explosion in DV4Mini's, DVMega's, etc.
I might not like hanging out on repeaters but there are plenty that do. No reason to alienate anyone.

They alienated everyone a long time before they went to d-star
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 9:17:59 AM EDT
Gospel.

The amateur stuff is typically toy/hobby-grade gear.

I didn't get into this shit to have QSOs about Golden Corral, and talk about the latest Hoveround mods.

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Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:

Well, that's HAM for ya right there.

A lot of the problems with HAM radio is that it's amateur. Once you get it set up, you can't actually do anything useful with it* -- in the majority of cases anyway. Now that I have a couple buddies with Tech licenses we can use the repeaters along the front range on car trips, but that's about it. I've used my HAM license more testing out viability of different systems and capabilities of radios (all in amateur compliance) that I would later go on to use for something "real", which in most cases, is expressly forbidden by amateur rules. Not saying it should necessarily be any different, but there you go....

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Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
filled with gear queers and people jacking each other off

Well, that's HAM for ya right there.

A lot of the problems with HAM radio is that it's amateur. Once you get it set up, you can't actually do anything useful with it* -- in the majority of cases anyway. Now that I have a couple buddies with Tech licenses we can use the repeaters along the front range on car trips, but that's about it. I've used my HAM license more testing out viability of different systems and capabilities of radios (all in amateur compliance) that I would later go on to use for something "real", which in most cases, is expressly forbidden by amateur rules. Not saying it should necessarily be any different, but there you go....


Link Posted: 5/2/2016 1:10:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kinglou0:
Opposite here. DMR repeaters are filled with gear queers and people jacking each other off about audio fidelity. I've been running a DVMega as a MMDVM host along with a TYT-390 for about 2 weeks now. I like DMR but it needs a major amateur radio company to get behind it. Someone needs to get out there like ICOM did with D-Star and sell it.
D-Star might inferior but it's got a huge user base, a shit ton of ways to use it including a very healthy market for smaller manufactures, the reflectors especially in the case of XRF can run a lot of traffic despite how many connected systems are linked, and it's a smidgen easier to use than DMR (not by much).
Plus, all the work in Europe to bridge D-Star and DMR is making the arguments between the 2 formats almost a nonissue except on a very localized basis.




Look at Kenwood. They sell DMR radios in the UK. There is no reason they couldn't put together a offering for the US amateur market but instead if rumors are correct, Kenwood is releasing a triband D-Star HT at Dayton this year. I'm really looking forward to this because it'll have 220. 220 is quiet and perfect for an older digital mode like D-Star.


TL;DR
I like DMR. It's been cool to experiment with but it needs time and a major amateur manufacture to support it before it makes any big waves. Hopefully it's not Yaesu.
View Quote


Kenwood made a PSA back in late February, early March that they will be bringing their DMR line to the US by the end of the year. They also stated at IWCE that there will be a firmware update for the NX line of radios around 3rd quarter this year to add support for DMR Tier II. So now you have a multi-mode radio in the sense it'll run on NXDN, P25 Phase I, P25 Phase II, DMR Tier II and analog...and you can chain multiple bands together. So yes, Kenwood is taking some big steps in both Amateur and LMR markets.

The biggest problem related to hams and digital modes isn't the commercial modulation methods but is the lack of general knowledge about the gear. There was once a time where you only had a few options if you wanted to play on FM repeaters...Motorola, General Electric, RCA, Standard Communications(now Vertex Standard). It actually took about 10 or 15 years to the amateur manufactures to "hop on" with FM. Hams want (demand) VFO when the number of channels that modern commercial radios will take is in the thousands. Modern hams demand dual band radios (which is still a bit of a relatively new novelty). Hams complain often about the price of the gear...the complaints never end. However, what it boils down to is the fact if it weren't for the LMR sides of the "Big 3", the amateur sides wouldn't have the R&D money to design new amateur gear. There is still a ton of money to be made in the commercial sector and by definition the amateur sector is just that...amateur (aka little to no profit).
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 1:33:13 PM EDT
Absolutely.

And if Yaesu turns you on, pick up a Vertex Standard EVX-539. If you squint your eyes at it, it's an FT-60R that does DMR.

The lack of general knowledge of the digital capabilities, also involves a lack of interest. The crotchety, old coots aren't happy, unless they've got something to bitch about. They're perfectly content with 60's era GE repeaters, and those of us under 50 are sons of bitches, ruining it for them.

Also, with the dedicated digital systems (D-Star/Fusion) two of the big three would be cutting their own throats by migrating to DMR. DMR, being a commercial standard, already has a mountain of resources, manufacturers, capital, and implementation behind it.

Sticker-shock is probably the biggest thing turning hams away from DMR.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
The biggest problem related to hams and digital modes isn't the commercial modulation methods but is the lack of general knowledge about the gear. There was once a time where you only had a few options if you wanted to play on FM repeaters...Motorola, General Electric, RCA, Standard Communications(now Vertex Standard). It actually took about 10 or 15 years to the amateur manufactures to "hop on" with FM. Hams want (demand) VFO when the number of channels that modern commercial radios will take is in the thousands. Modern hams demand dual band radios (which is still a bit of a relatively new novelty). Hams complain often about the price of the gear...the complaints never end. However, what it boils down to is the fact if it weren't for the LMR sides of the "Big 3", the amateur sides wouldn't have the R&D money to design new amateur gear. There is still a ton of money to be made in the commercial sector and by definition the amateur sector is just that...amateur (aka little to no profit).
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Link Posted: 5/2/2016 3:51:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Absolutely.

And if Yaesu turns you on, pick up a Vertex Standard EVX-539. If you squint your eyes at it, it's an FT-60R that does DMR.

The lack of general knowledge of the digital capabilities, also involves a lack of interest. The crotchety, old coots aren't happy, unless they've got something to bitch about. They're perfectly content with 60's era GE repeaters, and those of us under 50 are sons of bitches, ruining it for them.

Also, with the dedicated digital systems (D-Star/Fusion) two of the big three would be cutting their own throats by migrating to DMR. DMR, being a commercial standard, already has a mountain of resources, manufacturers, capital, and implementation behind it.

Sticker-shock is probably the biggest thing turning hams away from DMR.


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Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Absolutely.

And if Yaesu turns you on, pick up a Vertex Standard EVX-539. If you squint your eyes at it, it's an FT-60R that does DMR.

The lack of general knowledge of the digital capabilities, also involves a lack of interest. The crotchety, old coots aren't happy, unless they've got something to bitch about. They're perfectly content with 60's era GE repeaters, and those of us under 50 are sons of bitches, ruining it for them.

Also, with the dedicated digital systems (D-Star/Fusion) two of the big three would be cutting their own throats by migrating to DMR. DMR, being a commercial standard, already has a mountain of resources, manufacturers, capital, and implementation behind it.

Sticker-shock is probably the biggest thing turning hams away from DMR.

The biggest problem related to hams and digital modes isn't the commercial modulation methods but is the lack of general knowledge about the gear. There was once a time where you only had a few options if you wanted to play on FM repeaters...Motorola, General Electric, RCA, Standard Communications(now Vertex Standard). It actually took about 10 or 15 years to the amateur manufactures to "hop on" with FM. Hams want (demand) VFO when the number of channels that modern commercial radios will take is in the thousands. Modern hams demand dual band radios (which is still a bit of a relatively new novelty). Hams complain often about the price of the gear...the complaints never end. However, what it boils down to is the fact if it weren't for the LMR sides of the "Big 3", the amateur sides wouldn't have the R&D money to design new amateur gear. There is still a ton of money to be made in the commercial sector and by definition the amateur sector is just that...amateur (aka little to no profit).



I'm not against new repeaters...but there are some things that need to be changed with a few of the offerings. For example, Yaesu's Fusion repeater needs to be rated for 100% duty at it's rated power. It also needs RG-179 at a minimum to use as jumpers instead of the RG-58 that's being used currently. Granted, even Motorola has been guilty of the RG-58 jumpers on their business/consumer grade repeaters (including XPRs) but if you look at what most hams do when they install those...replace with better jumpers.

It's the little things that build a quality system that don't get done because amateur mfgs are trying to prove to their parent companies that the amateur market is profitable.
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 5:32:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
Sticker-shock is probably the biggest thing turning hams away from DMR.
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I don't know. I think it's the technical know-how that is keeping hams away from DMR. As much as hams like to brag about their abilities to understand radio technologies, that all flies out the window as soon as it's something that hasn't been around for awhile. Shit, even D-Star has been widely available since 2006 and 10 years later, guys still don't understand the difference between a local call and a gateway call. The mysteries of why someone would only hear one half of a conversation on a reflector escapes people.

No amount of cartoony ICOM manuals or YouTube videos seem to work.

DMR from my standpoint is very cheap to get into. Cheaper than any other digital mode. If Kenwood does make a push into North America with DMR along with the trend of more repeater operators using BrandMeister, I might just hang D-Star up relegating it to the occasional net check in.
Link Posted: 5/2/2016 6:33:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2016 6:45:59 PM EDT by OutlanderSystems]
If that is what's keeping them away...that's pathetic.

One of the biggest turn ons, for me, with DMR, aside from the cool dude shit, is the fact that everyone I've had a QSO with has been extremely cordial, and behave much better than the rag chewing shitheads on 2m/440 analog in my A.O.

Plus there's no freedbanders or 14 MHz nut jobs on DMR, either.

Hopefully, Kenwood will release a radio with a screen, or something comparable to their NEXEDGE radios for DMR. The TK-340V looked like a basic client radio.

I'm very curious to see what they release for the US Market.

Link Posted: 5/2/2016 11:06:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OutlanderSystems:
If that is what's keeping them away...that's pathetic.

One of the biggest turn ons, for me, with DMR, aside from the cool dude shit, is the fact that everyone I've had a QSO with has been extremely cordial, and behave much better than the rag chewing shitheads on 2m/440 analog in my A.O.

Plus there's no freedbanders or 14 MHz nut jobs on DMR, either.

Hopefully, Kenwood will release a radio with a screen, or something comparable to their NEXEDGE radios for DMR. The TK-340V looked like a basic client radio.

I'm very curious to see what they release for the US Market.

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I'll be basic mid-tier stuff. Unless you buy NX the Motorola, Simoco, and Hytera mobiles will mostly have better looking displays.
Link Posted: 5/3/2016 1:19:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 11:39:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 12:01:11 PM EDT
Cool! Glad it worked for your group. This thread has been very educational.
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 1:22:32 PM EDT
It would be cool to see that thing in action one day.
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