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Posted: 1/23/2014 11:13:58 AM EDT
I was wondering how many carry a high quality pepper spray in addition to their CCW.

I started thinking about how it would better to diffuse a situation and escape rather than

having only one force multiplier.

The thought came to mind after reading stats of how bear spray was much more effective

than a firearm in attacks. I think about all the situations where two to the chest and one to

the head is just not appropriate as in when no weapon is visible with the assailant.

This seems to be an option. Opinions? Better products?
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 11:24:10 AM EDT
[#1]
I'm not sure if you can get it down in the states, but most agencies up here in Alaska use UDAP brand for bear protection.  They also make some seriously mean units for personal defense
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 11:25:02 AM EDT
[#2]
Glock
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 11:28:01 AM EDT
[#3]
careful about having both spray and a firearm on your person at the same time. In MN anyway, we were warned NOT to carry pepper spray and our weapons simultaneously. If you end up using your firearm, you can easily get your a$$ in major trouble because you had the spray as an "option".



Also, a LOT of states/cities restrict pepper spray.
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 11:29:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Pepper spray can have a delayed effect, to the tune of 1 or 2 minutes, or it an be very quick.

Reactions are very idiosyncratic.

I do think it would work better as a break contact/ deter pursuit option than as a force option.

I.E. a shot in the face and run like hell. Or, nip into a doorway and contaminate the area so they have to go around.

From vast experience, unless you use it like a sniper, you will get a good ol' dose too.

Part of your training shoud be exposure, so you won;t think you're dying when you get a whiff.

Fox labs is pretty vicious.
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 11:30:18 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
Glock
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Glock makes oc now?

Is it "Perfection"

Link Posted: 1/23/2014 11:45:42 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
careful about having both spray and a firearm on your person at the same time. In MN anyway, we were warned NOT to carry pepper spray and our weapons simultaneously. If you end up using your firearm, you can easily get your a$$ in major trouble because you had the spray as an "option".

Also, a LOT of states/cities restrict pepper spray.
View Quote


That's horse shit IMO.

Carrying shows not the only tool I am carrying is a gun. Irate people acting afool don't require pistol work. I'd prefer pepper spray over breaking someone's jaw or orbital socket.
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 12:08:27 PM EDT
[#7]
For everyday use, it gives me an option not to have to put my hands on someone, and be able to retreat.

Pulling a gun on someone with the bet that they'll back off is a gamble. Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe they keep coming and pistol-whip or shoot you with your own piece. Maybe you end up shooting them first and then end up in the clink because the jury finds that deadly force wasn't authorized.

A face full of OC will usually work on everyone, with the TINY exception of those immune to it, by either natural or drug related causes.

Yes, you can train yourself to fight through it. I've done it. It still sucks donkey schlong. Target reacquisition is a bitch when satan's piss is burning a new hole through your face. A typical FSA soldier or criminal will probably retreat to find easier pickings, unless they're completely committed to murdering you. Even so, combat effectiveness is significantly reduced.

If I were a big city dweller, I'd keep a large canister handy as well. But if you happened to stumble into a situation that would require it's use, you've obviously done screwed up already and got yourself mixed up in a civil disturbance or the like.

Get one with a stream nozzle. You WILL dose yourself with a spray/mist model.
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 12:28:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Carry both.  Fox 5.1 is the best OC option, in my opinion.  

I agree it's BS to say you will get prosecuted for shooting someone if you had OC spray.  A good shoot is a good shoot.  If you shoot someone you COULD'VE pepper sprayed it was a bad shoot.  

Lesson:  If you carry OC, be prepared to use it.  Practice with it in your pocket (deploying it) and know what the difference is between a situation in which OC will work and which "No other lesser use of force would work"
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 12:33:16 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
For everyday use, it gives me an option not to have to put my hands on someone, and be able to retreat.

Pulling a gun on someone with the bet that they'll back off is a gamble. Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe they keep coming and pistol-whip or shoot you with your own piece. Maybe you end up shooting them first and then end up in the clink because the jury finds that deadly force wasn't authorized.

A face full of OC will usually work on everyone, with the TINY exception of those immune to it, by either natural or drug related causes.

Yes, you can train yourself to fight through it. I've done it. It still sucks donkey schlong. Target reacquisition is a bitch when satan's piss is burning a new hole through your face. A typical FSA soldier or criminal will probably retreat to find easier pickings, unless they're completely committed to murdering you. Even so, combat effectiveness is significantly reduced.

If I were a big city dweller, I'd keep a large canister handy as well. But if you happened to stumble into a situation that would require it's use, you've obviously done screwed up already and got yourself mixed up in a civil disturbance or the like.

Get one with a stream nozzle. You WILL dose yourself with a spray/mist model.
http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Alison-Brie-Runs-Into-Her-Own-Pepper-Spray-Attack.gif
View Quote


That GIF represents about a third of the police sprayings I've attended.

Hell, at least with a TASER only one of you is gonna get it!
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 12:34:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
For everyday use, it gives me an option not to have to put my hands on someone, and be able to retreat.

Pulling a gun on someone with the bet that they'll back off is a gamble. Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe they keep coming and pistol-whip or shoot you with your own piece. Maybe you end up shooting them first and then end up in the clink because the jury finds that deadly force wasn't authorized.

A face full of OC will usually work on everyone, with the TINY exception of those immune to it, by either natural or drug related causes.

Yes, you can train yourself to fight through it. I've done it. It still sucks donkey schlong. Target reacquisition is a bitch when satan's piss is burning a new hole through your face. A typical FSA soldier or criminal will probably retreat to find easier pickings, unless they're completely committed to murdering you. Even so, combat effectiveness is significantly reduced.

If I were a big city dweller, I'd keep a large canister handy as well. But if you happened to stumble into a situation that would require it's use, you've obviously done screwed up already and got yourself mixed up in a civil disturbance or the like.

Get one with a stream nozzle. You WILL dose yourself with a spray/mist model.
http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Alison-Brie-Runs-Into-Her-Own-Pepper-Spray-Attack.gif
View Quote


LMAO
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 12:42:04 PM EDT
[#11]
FWIW, most companies don't call it "less than lethal" because that implies that one cannot die from exposure to the weapon (taser, OC, etc).  People can die, it just happens very infrequently.  Usually, these weapons are called "less lethal".  Very minor wording change, but the difference is obvious.
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 7:44:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not sure if you can get it down in the states, but most agencies up here in Alaska use UDAP brand for bear protection.  They also make some seriously mean units for personal defense
View Quote



Da' good stuff
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 9:14:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
For everyday use, it gives me an option not to have to put my hands on someone, and be able to retreat.

Pulling a gun on someone with the bet that they'll back off is a gamble. Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe they keep coming and pistol-whip or shoot you with your own piece. Maybe you end up shooting them first and then end up in the clink because the jury finds that deadly force wasn't authorized.

A face full of OC will usually work on everyone, with the TINY exception of those immune to it, by either natural or drug related causes.

Yes, you can train yourself to fight through it. I've done it. It still sucks donkey schlong. Target reacquisition is a bitch when satan's piss is burning a new hole through your face. A typical FSA soldier or criminal will probably retreat to find easier pickings, unless they're completely committed to murdering you. Even so, combat effectiveness is significantly reduced.

If I were a big city dweller, I'd keep a large canister handy as well. But if you happened to stumble into a situation that would require it's use, you've obviously done screwed up already and got yourself mixed up in a civil disturbance or the like.

Get one with a stream nozzle. You WILL dose yourself with a spray/mist model.
http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Alison-Brie-Runs-Into-Her-Own-Pepper-Spray-Attack.gif
View Quote


Good post!  I might not always have a little can on my person but I always have one with in reach (in my EDC bag etc.)

ETA/ this is especially true living in such a CCW restricted state... My employment involves a correctional facility so that also restricts my CCW ability.  Many times pepper spray and a SAK is all I have.  Speaking of that its almost time for me to find some new spray to replace my old canisters with...  Several years now being a part of law enforcement agency however not as a "cop" and I have still never even came remotely close to using it...  Its all about situational awareness and not being in the wrong place at the wrong time... Your brain can do a lot for you, you just have to use it.
On that same note it is better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.  IMO emergency preparedness is everything.

Link Posted: 1/24/2014 5:36:31 AM EDT
[#14]
I carry OC on duty.  Never off duty.



I have a kubotan, which I really like.  And of course I also have my Judo and Jiu Jitsu.  But in a SHTF scenario I'd rely on Mr. Colt.  
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 5:52:16 AM EDT
[#15]

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Quoted:


Carry both.  Fox 5.1 is the best OC option, in my opinion.  



I agree it's BS to say you will get prosecuted for shooting someone if you had OC spray.  A good shoot is a good shoot.  If you shoot someone you COULD'VE pepper sprayed it was a bad shoot.  



Lesson:  If you carry OC, be prepared to use it.  Practice with it in your pocket (deploying it) and know what the difference is between a situation in which OC will work and which "No other lesser use of force would work"
View Quote
From what we were taught, and from reading the law I understand the logic:

 



In MN we have a duty to retreat. Also, lethal force MUST be our LAST option to save ourselves. If we had OC on our person, we had that option to "try", so the theory goes. I understand how a libtard leaning jury could say that you had "other" options before using a weapon. This is why our instructor said it best from a legal standpoint to avoid carrying OC and your EDC weapon simultaneously. I, for one, don't want to be a test case.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 9:15:11 AM EDT
[#16]
In my CCW course the instructor said about 14% of the population were immune to the effects of pepper spray.  For a couple of reasons, for instance the story of our friend in Minnesota, keeping a can of wasp and hornet spray in your vehicle can be beneficial.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 9:23:56 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
From what we were taught, and from reading the law I understand the logic:    

In MN we have a duty to retreat. Also, lethal force MUST be our LAST option to save ourselves. If we had OC on our person, we had that option to "try", so the theory goes. I understand how a libtard leaning jury could say that you had "other" options before using a weapon. This is why our instructor said it best from a legal standpoint to avoid carrying OC and your EDC weapon simultaneously. I, for one, don't want to be a test case.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Carry both.  Fox 5.1 is the best OC option, in my opinion.  

I agree it's BS to say you will get prosecuted for shooting someone if you had OC spray.  A good shoot is a good shoot.  If you shoot someone you COULD'VE pepper sprayed it was a bad shoot.  

Lesson:  If you carry OC, be prepared to use it.  Practice with it in your pocket (deploying it) and know what the difference is between a situation in which OC will work and which "No other lesser use of force would work"
From what we were taught, and from reading the law I understand the logic:    

In MN we have a duty to retreat. Also, lethal force MUST be our LAST option to save ourselves. If we had OC on our person, we had that option to "try", so the theory goes. I understand how a libtard leaning jury could say that you had "other" options before using a weapon. This is why our instructor said it best from a legal standpoint to avoid carrying OC and your EDC weapon simultaneously. I, for one, don't want to be a test case.


Your instructor can Monday morning QB it as much as you want, but I'm not going to NOT carry OC spray just so I can argue that shooting a person was my only option.  

If you have time to get your OC spray out and use it, it's likely the best option for you.  If you don't, then your firearm is likely your best option.
Using Col. Coopers color codes, you see a potential threat, you get your OC ready and practice avoidance.  If that does not work, you drop that OC and draw your pistol.  It's all about awareness.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 10:13:36 AM EDT
[#18]

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Quoted:
Your instructor can Monday morning QB it as much as you want, but I'm not going to NOT carry OC spray just so I can argue that shooting a person was my only option.  



If you have time to get your OC spray out and use it, it's likely the best option for you.  If you don't, then your firearm is likely your best option.

Using Col. Coopers color codes, you see a potential threat, you get your OC ready and practice avoidance.  If that does not work, you drop that OC and draw your pistol.  It's all about awareness.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

Carry both.  Fox 5.1 is the best OC option, in my opinion.  



I agree it's BS to say you will get prosecuted for shooting someone if you had OC spray.  A good shoot is a good shoot.  If you shoot someone you COULD'VE pepper sprayed it was a bad shoot.  



Lesson:  If you carry OC, be prepared to use it.  Practice with it in your pocket (deploying it) and know what the difference is between a situation in which OC will work and which "No other lesser use of force would work"
From what we were taught, and from reading the law I understand the logic:    



In MN we have a duty to retreat. Also, lethal force MUST be our LAST option to save ourselves. If we had OC on our person, we had that option to "try", so the theory goes. I understand how a libtard leaning jury could say that you had "other" options before using a weapon. This is why our instructor said it best from a legal standpoint to avoid carrying OC and your EDC weapon simultaneously. I, for one, don't want to be a test case.





Your instructor can Monday morning QB it as much as you want, but I'm not going to NOT carry OC spray just so I can argue that shooting a person was my only option.  



If you have time to get your OC spray out and use it, it's likely the best option for you.  If you don't, then your firearm is likely your best option.

Using Col. Coopers color codes, you see a potential threat, you get your OC ready and practice avoidance.  If that does not work, you drop that OC and draw your pistol.  It's all about awareness.
More power to you, and I don't disagree with you. I just don't want to be the one that sets precedence in court.

 
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 11:35:05 AM EDT
[#19]
I guess OC falls into my 'EDC' by virtue of occupation, but I don't bother with it off duty.
Here's a little bit of food for thought
-Check your laws. Some states may not allow you to conceal both OC and a firearm
-People fight through OC, and can become even more intent on harming you after being sprayed. Spray someones buddy? now you have to fight two guys
-OC freezes in cold conditions
-even when well trained if you deploy OC in a dynamic situation, you're probably going to get exposed yourself.

So as you can tell, I'm not an OC fan. It has its uses I guess, but I don't mess with the stuff. Less lethal options just don't have a place in my off duty EDC. Awareness, Avoidance, and numbers are your friends. Keep those areas covered and you'll be way better off than relying on OC, Tasers, batons, or what have you.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 11:57:12 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Carry both.  Fox 5.1 is the best OC option, in my opinion.  

I agree it's BS to say you will get prosecuted for shooting someone if you had OC spray.  A good shoot is a good shoot. If you shoot someone you COULD'VE pepper sprayed it was a bad shoot.  

Lesson:  If you carry OC, be prepared to use it.  Practice with it in your pocket (deploying it) and know what the difference is between a situation in which OC will work and which "No other lesser use of force would work"
View Quote


The part in blue, I agree 100%.  The part in red needs to be more clear.

This is mainly symantics but legal arguments often are.  It would be better to say "should" rather than "could" because, legally speaking, anyone you are justified in shooting certainly meets the threshold for using spray.  I don't think that is what you meant, I'm just pointing out that wording is important with legal issues like this.

I have a fair amount of experience dealing with force options.  I carry a gun, spray, taser, and baton daily at work and have used them all in various different situations.  A firearm and pepper spray are two different tools for two different applications.  If you are legally justified in spraying someone but not shooting them, not having spray won't make it acceptable to shoot.  If you are legally justified in shooting them, things are too dangerous to fool around with spray and trying it may well get you killed.  

Where things get tricky is when a situation presents initially as one type of incident and then escalates or de-escalates to another.  It is often hard, under the stress of a serious confrontation, to mentally switch gears and change with the situation.  I've seen officers continue to use a low level of force when a much higher level was justified simply because mentally they had already made the decision to use the lower level of force before the situation escalated.  I've also seen the opposite when an officer continues to use a higher level of force once the situation has become less dangerous.  Switching mental gears isn't an easy thing to do, but is often necessary.

Add to that the principle that the more options you have to choose from, the longer it will take to make a decision, and you can see where carrying too much can actually be detrimental.

Personally I find spray to be of limited usefulness and I don't carry it when not working.  YMMV

ETA:  Duty to retreat laws are among the worst ideas in legislative history, and that is really sayinig something.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 12:09:47 PM EDT
[#21]
I am headed out the door so I don't have time to type my thoughts out.



But I have a question.



What scenerio do you forsee where having pepper spray on your person would be something to use?



I work corrections and know what it can and can't do to some folks.



I know you can build up a tolerance to it.



I will be back tonight if possable to respond further.


Link Posted: 1/24/2014 12:11:17 PM EDT
[#22]
I was recently thinking I wanted to buy some OC paintballs in case I needed to get someone off my property without lethal force or risking myself and family.  Does anyone know where you can buy them?  Like a new gun out of something I already own....
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 12:37:16 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:
I was recently thinking I wanted to buy some OC paintballs in case I needed to get someone off my property without lethal force or risking myself and family.  Does anyone know where you can buy them?  Like a new gun out of something I already own....
View Quote


http://www.pepperball.com/projectiles/
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 1:12:54 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
I am headed out the door so I don't have time to type my thoughts out.

But I have a question.

What scenerio do you forsee where having pepper spray on your person would be something to use?  Road Rage?

I work corrections and know what it can and can't do to some folks.

I know you can build up a tolerance to it.

I will be back tonight if possable to respond further.
View Quote

Link Posted: 1/24/2014 1:36:12 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I was recently thinking I wanted to buy some OC paintballs in case I needed to get someone off my property without lethal force or risking myself and family.  Does anyone know where you can buy them?  Like a new gun out of something I already own....


http://www.pepperball.com/projectiles/


Just so you know, those ain't your kid's paintballs. They HURT substantially more too. I don't know how the chemical effects are, since all I've ever been hit with are the inert training powder rounds, but OW.

ETA: If anyone here knows, is it the round itself that causes more blunt trauma, or do they jack up the pressure on the "markers"? IIRC, most paintball markers top out at around 300fps.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 2:01:53 PM EDT
[#26]


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Quoted:
Just so you know, those ain't your kid's paintballs. They HURT substantially more too. I don't know how the chemical effects are, since all I've ever been hit with are the inert training powder rounds, but OW.





ETA: If anyone here knows, is it the round itself that causes more blunt trauma, or do they jack up the pressure on the "markers"? IIRC, most paintball markers top out at around 300fps.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:


I was recently thinking I wanted to buy some OC paintballs in case I needed to get someone off my property without lethal force or risking myself and family.  Does anyone know where you can buy them?  Like a new gun out of something I already own....






http://www.pepperball.com/projectiles/






Just so you know, those ain't your kid's paintballs. They HURT substantially more too. I don't know how the chemical effects are, since all I've ever been hit with are the inert training powder rounds, but OW.





ETA: If anyone here knows, is it the round itself that causes more blunt trauma, or do they jack up the pressure on the "markers"? IIRC, most paintball markers top out at around 300fps.
I have personally cranked my Tippmann up to around 500 fps for shits and giggles. (Never shot anyone with that speed though.) It does take mods.


 



ETA: Looks like they are using a re-branded and slightly modified Tippmann A-5 as their "launcher".
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 2:34:49 PM EDT
[#27]
That link is great but do they only sell to LEO?  My thought is that I can defend myself with everything from my Red Ryder bb gun, 22's, up to 12g slugs 7.62x54r, 308 and soon a 50bmg..  Why can't I take the high road and scare looters away with OC paintballs as a first choice?  I have 2 tippmans downstairs looking for a second job...
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 2:56:04 PM EDT
[#28]
I don't see road rage.





Messing with the windsheild and making it hard for dude to see makes me figure I will be in trouble for an accident he has.  If it gets into the vents of the vehicle I have a similar issue if dude can't control his vehicle.  Let alone the air turbulence for me to spray from a moving vehicle to hit a moving vehicle.





If we are playing bumper cars, we are at deadly weapon status and a vehicle is a deadly weapon.  





If we are not playing bumper cars a call to the local police or a stop in a crowded parking lot might work.  Having a half full tank of gas and knowledge of the local police and sheriff stations is a good thing.  





I lump pepper spray, bean bag rounds, pepper ball rounds, and similar stuff into the special training and special tactics areas.  Police and corrections and what not have a reason for having this stuff.





I am on my own out in the world, if I feel threatened I have yet to figure out a threat where I would use pepper spray instead of the firearm.
 
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 4:06:57 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
That link is great but do they only sell to LEO?  My thought is that I can defend myself with everything from my Red Ryder bb gun, 22's, up to 12g slugs 7.62x54r, 308 and soon a 50bmg..  Why can't I take the high road and scare looters away with OC paintballs as a first choice?  I have 2 tippmans downstairs looking for a second job...
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I don't know, you'd have to ask.  I did notice that the field for department info wasn't a required field in their form for more info.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 5:54:47 PM EDT
[#30]
My family consists of me, the wife and a 16 year old daughter.

People respond to threats in different ways.  Some use flight, some use fight.  My wife is one of those who freezes.  It's not great, but that simply is what it is.  Providing her with a firearm for defense is NOT a good option. If she pulls a firearm out, we both recognize that she will likely hesitate and or freeze.  The firearm will likely be taken from her and used on her.  This isn't ideal, but sometimes you simply need to recognize what is.  So, her next best available option is pepperspray.

The daughter is wired differently.  She's a fighter.  I think that she could use a firearm effectively, but I'm not quite prepared to make a firearm available to a 16 year old, particularly in this damned state.  Unlocking the safe and pulling one out is one thing.  Providing a daily carry handgun to a 16 year old isn't an option.   So, its pepper spray again.  In addition to the small personal sized units, we have the large 16 oz (I think) industrial sized bear spray can too.

Link Posted: 1/24/2014 6:46:40 PM EDT
[#31]
I've used pepper spray and handguns many times.

Handguns are effective with proper shot placement and bullet performance.
Results are not alway immediate.

Pepper spray is effective with "most" people if they get a proper (copious) dose.
In my experience, results are immediate with those it IS effective on.
Effectiveness on people under the influence of alcohol or drugs is "spotty".  It IS ineffective on people cross-using alcohol and pain medication.

Link Posted: 1/24/2014 11:01:55 PM EDT
[#32]
If someone is attacking me or my family I'm not fucking around with anything less than lethal. When the threat stops I stop. The quickest way to stop the threat is a center mass shot.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 5:36:05 AM EDT
[#33]
Think post SHTF and you see two tean agers at the edge of your property looking "scetchy".  20 OC balls their way out the window of your house...  Problem solved, no one needed to die..  A Gun is LAST choice...
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 7:35:41 AM EDT
[#34]
As others have pointed out, laws relating to the use of pepper spray/CS/Mace vary by state.





I advise you to research your states laws regarding pepper sprays and other less-lethal options, and how they relate to your self defense laws, as in many states the option of using pepper spray may or does remove your legal defense for using lethal force.





I advise my CCW/CPL students not to carry pepper spray along with their firearm due to the legal risk (either criminally or civilly).


If you are not comfortable with using lethal force, by all means carry less lethal tools with you instead, but as you do not have the force escalation protections a police officer does, do not carry both if there is any question about your state laws.





Remember, in cases of personal defense your only defense will be your ability to follow the letter of the law to mind numbing detail before and after the event. No lobbying group (NRA, or any state/local lobbying group), company or even public group will stand with you or defend you.

 
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 8:24:39 AM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
If someone is attacking me or my family I'm not fucking around with anything less than lethal. When the threat stops I stop. The quickest way to stop the threat is a center mass shot.
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I understand where you're coming from, just know that the law isn't always that black and white, even in Texas.  You still have to be able to explain why your actions were reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury or death or were reasonably necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.  

Most assaults don't qualify as felonious or result in serious injury or death.  Some do, but you need to be able to explain why you felt it was that kind of threat.  Absent a weapon or a clear intent to rob or kill this will usually be due to subject factors.  Your size compared to theirs, your numbers compared to theirs, behavioral clues, context, etc.

Self defense is a huge gray area with very little black and white at the extremes.  That is what makes it so difficult to teach and makes it legally risky.  The first rule is to avoid, the second rule is to win, after that you worry about legal stuff.  That said, it is wise to know the legal dangers ahead of time.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 8:58:06 AM EDT
[#36]
When referring to 12Ga, 37mm and 40mm its Less lethal not less than lethal.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 10:25:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Not sure what you're saying.  My 12g is Lethal, the 37mm is for flares and to summon help..  The OC is to stop things from getting out of control and taking the high road.  If someone is on your property, a crowd forms etc...  Start with the OC paintballs and end with the 12g/AR-15 with that as a final option.  If SHTF someone could loot your house if they thought you weren't home to provide for their family.  Does that mean they need to die?  Options are always good.  I have 2 paintball guns, and my son is 14 and wants one for himself.  If I already have the tool, why not add it to the tool chest? If they will sell me a case of OC balls I will add that to my prepared kit.  Even if I use them, another person in the family will be next to me with something lethal if option 1 doesn't work..  Options are good... Killing when scaring away is an option, is BAD...
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 11:31:08 AM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:
Not sure what you're saying.  My 12g is Lethal, the 37mm is for flares and to summon help..  The OC is to stop things from getting out of control and taking the high road.  If someone is on your property, a crowd forms etc...  Start with the OC paintballs and end with the 12g/AR-15 with that as a final option.  If SHTF someone could loot your house if they thought you weren't home to provide for their family.  Does that mean they need to die?  Options are always good.  I have 2 paintball guns, and my son is 14 and wants one for himself.  If I already have the tool, why not add it to the tool chest? If they will sell me a case of OC balls I will add that to my prepared kit.  Even if I use them, another person in the family will be next to me with something lethal if option 1 doesn't work..  Options are good... Killing when scaring away is an option, is BAD...
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If you ate referring the the post above yours, 12 ga bean bags, or 37 or 40 mm rounds (and for that matter, batons, tasers, etc) are not "less than lethal", because depending on circumstances you can still kill someone. Therefore, they are "less lethal" than, say, buckshot or regular ammunition.  The industry has gone away from saying "less than lethal" and towards "less lethal" because it more accurately describes the potential results of using that level of force.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 11:44:39 AM EDT
[#39]
My answers up to this point were for carrying pepper spray in today's world with someone who is using their ccw with a handgun and now considering also carrying pepper spray and the handgun at the same time.  This is what the original post started the thread as.



I don't mind thread drift but I wanted to be crystal clear on the above.



As far as bad times, local shtf or total end of the world stuff, having some options is possable but I would really think things through on any use of stuff.



I mentioned I have pepper spray at the house and I think one post said to buy some and play with it and see how you handle it.  It can be used against you so you should know what your reaction would be.



Having it as a tool in the tool box for shtf is one thing.



Carrying in today's world with today's lawyers and courts would give me pause.



I carry pepper spray at work.  I am required to carry it at work.



I don't carry pepper spray when I am outside of work and on my own time.
Link Posted: 1/28/2014 1:20:45 PM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:


The part in blue, I agree 100%.  The part in red needs to be more clear.

This is mainly symantics but legal arguments often are.  It would be better to say "should" rather than "could" because, legally speaking, anyone you are justified in shooting certainly meets the threshold for using spray.  I don't think that is what you meant, I'm just pointing out that wording is important with legal issues like this.

I have a fair amount of experience dealing with force options.  I carry a gun, spray, taser, and baton daily at work and have used them all in various different situations.  A firearm and pepper spray are two different tools for two different applications.  If you are legally justified in spraying someone but not shooting them, not having spray won't make it acceptable to shoot.  If you are legally justified in shooting them, things are too dangerous to fool around with spray and trying it may well get you killed.  

Where things get tricky is when a situation presents initially as one type of incident and then escalates or de-escalates to another.  It is often hard, under the stress of a serious confrontation, to mentally switch gears and change with the situation.  I've seen officers continue to use a low level of force when a much higher level was justified simply because mentally they had already made the decision to use the lower level of force before the situation escalated.  I've also seen the opposite when an officer continues to use a higher level of force once the situation has become less dangerous.  Switching mental gears isn't an easy thing to do, but is often necessary.

Add to that the principle that the more options you have to choose from, the longer it will take to make a decision, and you can see where carrying too much can actually be detrimental.

Personally I find spray to be of limited usefulness and I don't carry it when not working.  YMMV

ETA:  Duty to retreat laws are among the worst ideas in legislative history, and that is really sayinig something.
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Quoted:
Carry both.  Fox 5.1 is the best OC option, in my opinion.  

I agree it's BS to say you will get prosecuted for shooting someone if you had OC spray.  A good shoot is a good shoot. If you shoot someone you COULD'VE pepper sprayed it was a bad shoot.  

Lesson:  If you carry OC, be prepared to use it.  Practice with it in your pocket (deploying it) and know what the difference is between a situation in which OC will work and which "No other lesser use of force would work"


The part in blue, I agree 100%.  The part in red needs to be more clear.

This is mainly symantics but legal arguments often are.  It would be better to say "should" rather than "could" because, legally speaking, anyone you are justified in shooting certainly meets the threshold for using spray.  I don't think that is what you meant, I'm just pointing out that wording is important with legal issues like this.

I have a fair amount of experience dealing with force options.  I carry a gun, spray, taser, and baton daily at work and have used them all in various different situations.  A firearm and pepper spray are two different tools for two different applications.  If you are legally justified in spraying someone but not shooting them, not having spray won't make it acceptable to shoot.  If you are legally justified in shooting them, things are too dangerous to fool around with spray and trying it may well get you killed.  

Where things get tricky is when a situation presents initially as one type of incident and then escalates or de-escalates to another.  It is often hard, under the stress of a serious confrontation, to mentally switch gears and change with the situation.  I've seen officers continue to use a low level of force when a much higher level was justified simply because mentally they had already made the decision to use the lower level of force before the situation escalated.  I've also seen the opposite when an officer continues to use a higher level of force once the situation has become less dangerous.  Switching mental gears isn't an easy thing to do, but is often necessary.

Add to that the principle that the more options you have to choose from, the longer it will take to make a decision, and you can see where carrying too much can actually be detrimental.

Personally I find spray to be of limited usefulness and I don't carry it when not working.  YMMV

ETA:  Duty to retreat laws are among the worst ideas in legislative history, and that is really sayinig something.


i agree with your analysis 100%, brother!
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