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Posted: 11/22/2017 11:31:00 PM EDT
Some of you have probably been following the thread about my excursion to Puerto Rico over in the ham forum: https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Heading-to-Puerto-Rico-with-my-radio-Wish-me-luck-/22-690608/?page=1

I wanted to also spawn a discussion from a survival perspective. I saw a lot of bad, SHTF kinds of things down there. It made me think, "How would I respond to this situation?" Problem is, I haven't been able to figure out any real good answers. Let me first set the stage for the discussion. Let's assume that you have chosen to live in the mountains. It's not all that far to the city, but you're remote enough that city problems like noise and traffic clogs don't reach you. You live in a tropical area where the temperature is within a fairly narrow range all year long. There are rainy seasons that can cause problems but otherwise, it's generally just hot and humid year round. You and your spouse have jobs in the city that you commute to every work day. Maybe you have a kid or two in school. You and your wife make decent money and are saving up to buy a house. Life is good.

Catastrophic hurricane comes along. Some of your neighbors houses are destroyed. Maybe your house suffers some damage, too. The power grid everywhere is completely down. Cell is not working. Land lines are dead. The water has shut off. Maybe you live close enough that you have sewer service but it's offline as well due to no power. There are no functioning radio or television stations because all the transmission towers were damaged or destroyed. You have no idea how bad the storm was, whether your area was hard hit and everywhere else is fine, and you are totally unaware that everything is broken everywhere. Days without power or running water start turning into weeks. Neighbors are saying that the roads out of the area were destroyed or buried under a mud slide. You can't get out and no one can get in. After a month's time, the road is finally able to be used. Information starts flowing. You are told your house will be without power or water for 3-6 months. Since you work by the hour, neither you nor your spouse have been getting paid. Since the road is open again, you try to go to determine whether you have a job to go back to. Perhaps the business you or your spouse works in has been destroyed or will take at least a few more weeks to re-open. (This is precisely the scenario that the lady working at the hotel shared with me as I was checking out on Sunday. It's not a hypothetical for her, it's her reality.)

Now, you may be thinking that if you live in, say, Arizona, that you really don't have to worry so much about hurricanes so it's a non issue. But suppose that entire grid down, comms offline situation is because of a CME, Nork EMP, or Chinese hacking of the grid in retaliation for some perceived slight. Arizona would be in precisely the same situation as Puerto Rico faced with the exception that the scale would be bigger (nationwide vs. island-wide).

I know in my situation, I have enough gas to power my generator for a couple of weeks, but probably no more than that. I do not have a second source of water. Truth is, we can't live without utility service for very long. Food we could stretch out for a couple of months. Recent events have forced me to re-evaluate how prepared for a really major disaster I am. And, I've found that I'm not really, particularly if my house is destroyed and all my preps with it. Down there, many of the houses are made with concrete. They seemed to do fairly well with only minor damage. Stick-built houses were destroyed. Many steel frame, sheet metal buildings were also destroyed. The frame was mostly still there, just the sides and roofing torn off. A guy that was selling turned wood objects at the mall I went to showed me pictures of his now-destroyed shop. It simply wasn't there any more and his equipment was in a pile of rubble.

Other than maybe getting a well put in and a solar setup, what else would you recommend to be able to go 3-6 months without utilities? Is there an inexpensive way to "harden" a stick-built house?

BTW, the locals I spoke with down there weren't complaining about their situation. They were explaining their situation the way you and your neighbor would talk about cutting the grass last week. Very matter-of-factly, and just treating it as all part of normal life. Tremendous attitudes they have. And, they were just as warm, friendly, and welcoming as they could be. I felt a little ridiculous when folks there would tell me "Thanks for your service". Um, I've never put on a uniform and got shot at. That to me is service. What I did, I consider what my Texas roots would call "being neighborly", albeit the neighbors are 2,000 miles away.

Thoughts?
Link Posted: 11/22/2017 11:54:08 PM EDT
[#1]
"To witness titanic events is always dangerous, and often fatal"

"The best place to be when something bad happens, is somewhere else"

-- the wisdom of Larry Niven.

1. Don't live near the coast, in a flood plain, on an earthquake fault, in or near a city or in Oklahoma or California.

2. Be prepared for everything.

3. You will die anyway.

Given reality, yes, you can still live a sensible prepper life. Simpson strong tie products, the south Dade county building code, DHS on EMP recovery, and basic homesteading skills are good places to start.

Start.

Now.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 12:04:18 AM EDT
[#2]
not necessarily in any order...
hand operated deep well pump depending on water level.... filter capability... pool shock for chlorination... rainwater collection system
septic tank sewer if ground will percolate
long term storage of beans and rice... ability  to sprout beans to supply green vegetables... ability to grow bean plants for the next season
natural(preferred) or man made pool for raising fish to augment the stored carbohydrates
power options... a hydro electric turbine generating system...wind mill power generation...  small solar panel system to maintain or charge communication equipment
solar cooker
solar food dehydrator
clay pot evaporation cooler

I would suggest you look a YouTube for a ideas... many of my suggestions came from "LDS Prepper" channel and a Wendy DeWitt food storage vid
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 5:59:15 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm fortunate as we're doing some major renovations to our house.  We may sell it eventually, but the more work we do, my wife is liking the idea of staying despite the size (both kids moved out).  The benefit is we have a lake about 150 feet from our house (high enough and with a built in over-flow area at the outlet to avoid flooding); it's about 11 acres and stocked the bass.  Our well is shallow and since the house was previously a barn, the well is located "inside" the house.  I need to get a more permanent generator hookup, but I also want to install a manual pump for tertiary backup.  We also have a new septic tank, so manual flushing wouldn't be a problem.

While I don't think we would be "cut off" for six months, Puerto Rico does hammer home the importance of having at least 60-90 and maybe even 6 months worth of food on hand; beyond that, you better start considering a diverse garden.  I just don't have the time for a garden, but I have the room for it.  I need to pick up a rototiller and stock some seeds regardless. The big question is generator fuel and how long can you run essentials.  Other than the freezer and water pump, and recharging tool batteries and basic rechargeable batteries, we can get by with very little on the power side.  I was thinking a couple 30 gallon caddies along with the half-dozen 5 gallon gas cans...at best we could stretch generator power 4-6 weeks.  We have a decent stove insert for winter heat, but I would really like to install a gas stove. I'm kicking myself because we had to replace our ECU A/C-heating units and ripped out the gas units for electric...big mistake hindsight.

Food would be our only issue and biggest priority.  While the kids moved out (well, one is in college and comes home a couple times a month), we have more storage room...but I would expect the kids to head-home if the disaster was extended beyond the immediate region.

Unfortunately the biggest threat would be our own population.  I doubt many would act like the Puerto Ricans you met...I would suspect if those kinds of living conditions went beyond a week or two, theft, assaults, and murders would likely increase.

That situation really makes you (or should make you) assess your own posture and preparedness.  Sad, but still a valuable lesson for those that will pay attention...

ROCK6
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 8:32:36 AM EDT
[#4]
My input.

We moved 40 miles from town.
After Irma, It was mandatory for us to be at work.  Stupid imho as my area was hit harder that where my work is. 40 miles can make or break how bad a cane is to your area. Anyway.
Roads,electric and sewer were down. Last year in Matthew sewer was down for 7 days.

Ok.
This is the list of grid down projects at our place we started ASAP once we moved in.

Removed broken electric well pump. Installed manual pump and hose bib fittings and shut off to the well.
Started a garden.
Built raised beds
Planted fruit trees
Got chickens.
Got generator.
Built outdoor shower area.
Invested in portable led lighting.
Purchased large water tote for more water storage.
Elevated and portable grow boxes .

There' s other things I'd love to do like solar etc.
And since part of my property is low lying I've even thought of building a crawfish farm/pond..or the likes for extra food sources. The tree rats only last so long.

Comms I'm set on this,but eventually will upgrade to allow me greater range of communication vs just listening.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 9:07:02 AM EDT
[#5]
I think the ideal situation is to be set up to be renewable, at least as much as possible. I have rain barrels that automatically fill themselves and flush every time it rains, so I currently have 250 gallons of that, plus another 75 or so instantly drinkable. but every time it rains even a little, I fill back up.

As far as gas, I only have a way to store about 50 gallons, but working on that. I would think extreme rationing is needed if you plan to be out a while. run the AC/freezer just enough, then stop.

I would like to get a solar panel or 3 just enough for charging devices, but I already have a bunch of solar garden lights. just charge all day, bring inside at night.

not sure what to do as far as food. I have a small stock pile but no garden set up really, so once that was gone I'd have to figure it out. harder here in the suburbs, that's for sure.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 9:15:59 AM EDT
[#6]
dont live in the 3rd world
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 10:11:56 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
dont live in the 3rd world
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Not yet anyway.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 10:44:19 AM EDT
[#8]
Great observations! At my hospital it’s against policy to use any outdated medical supplies on our patients, so we put them in an outdated box and they are subtracted from inventory quarterly. Then we throw them in the trash. One of my Doctors has family and medical contacts in Puerto Rico. So in our spare time we’ve been getting everyone’s outdated stuff and he’s been shipping it off to villages where it will do some good, instead of just throwing thousands of dollars of stuff in the trash.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 10:52:42 AM EDT
[#9]
this video is long, but produced by the "Pros from Dover"... after watching, I changed to vacuum sealing staples in mason jars, and storing in the original jar cartons under my bed

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=wendy+dewitt+food+storage&view=detail&mid=FC86E40CCEAB93356EB8FC86E40CCEAB93356EB8&FORM=VIRE
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 1:18:50 PM EDT
[#10]
I actually felt that PR would be an excellent model of how things would fall apart in the US if we had a disaster that brought the electric down and water supply.

Look forward to what you saw and how things were managed, how LEO dealt with matters and if FSA types behaved or took advantage.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 4:04:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I actually felt that PR would be an excellent model of how things would fall apart in the US if we had a disaster that brought the electric down and water supply.

Look forward to what you saw and how things were managed, how LEO dealt with matters and if FSA types behaved or took advantage.
View Quote
Maria hit PR on September 20th and I arrived on Oct. 13th, so about 3 weeks after. The story I got was during the first week, nobody knew anything. There were some opportunistic A-holes that decided since 911 was offline, it would be OK to start looting. Not everywhere, but enough places that people started chaining their generators and being on edge. There were precisely ZERO gas stations with fuel. Zip. No cell or land lines, no running water anywhere. The second week appeared to be an "assessment" and engagement in actually responding to the event. They started getting generators going at the water departments in the big cities. Only about half the hospitals were open during week 2. Around the 28th-29th, the group of 22 hams that ARRL recruited for the Red Cross arrived and got dispatched to their assigned locations. Some of those guys had it hard, some not so much. Truth is, they were the only ones who could communicate more than 3-4 miles for the first couple of weeks.

When I got to San Juan, there were <hundreds> of guys with guns wandering around in the Joint Field Office. It wasn't clear to me whether FEMA was paranoid or whether these guys were there for some other reason. About a week later, they started moving some of those guys out to parts of the island to help the local police with law and order. Some looting, but mostly generator and fuel thefts. Some of the cell repair crews stopped going out briefly because they were being robbed at gun point or their shit stolen. About 4 days after I got there, there was a group of Army folks that was in Vieques that was doing survivor contact going into neighborhoods and talking to individuals to see how they were doing. In one remote area, they came under fire from drug runners. They managed to unass the area without getting anybody killed but they had no way of communicating back to HQ. They managed to find a local Puerto Rican ham that helped them contact San Juan to get help. A few hours later, there was a big, armed strike team dispatched to go clean house.

After I got to Ponce, the public safety repeater that had been brought on-line for police, fire, and EMS to use went down. Yep, some POS stole the generator at the repeater site. Before I left, it happened again and both the generator and the two guards went missing. The day that I left, a lady told me a story about when she had gone up into the mountains with her team, they came across a small neighborhood where there were three houses fiarly close together. She said the first house was only lightly damaged but within a few days, somebody stole their generator. The second house had a little old lady that was on oxygen and had a generator. Her house had gotten badly damaged, and her generator got stolen, too. The third house was damaged but they took their generator to the first house and moved the little old lady there. They also stood watch to make sure it didn't walk away.

Before I left, it was common for folks from around the city and the surrounding towns to come to the working shopping malls that had power, A/C, water, and food, and stay there from the time they opened to the time they closed. I saw dozens of folks who brought a power strip, plugged it in to an outlet, and were charging half a dozen cell phones and tablets. The whole time I was there, people would be driving down the road and suddenly would get a cell signal, they'd pull off to the side of the road and use the phone. Cell service was spotty when I got there, and just as spotty when I left. Power restoration initially was directed towards banks (so people could cash their FEMA checks or use ATMs) and shopping centers followed by government buildings. People's homes were way, way down on the list for getting power restored. Quite the opposite of what you'd expect to see here on the mainland.

It took a month to get the 911 center operational and another 2 weeks to be able to contact the various municipal police/fire/EMS departments to actually <dispatch> anybody. About 2 days before I left, we got word that on Vieques, there was a fire station that had no comms still. If there was a fire at your house, you had to drive to the fire station and tell them your house was burning down yourself.

I blame FEMA for having their head up and locked on comms. Giving a hospital a satphone and saying they have "comms" now is beyond ridiculous. Any moron would have realized that (a) satphones have to be used outside, (b) satphones aren't usable indoors where all the doctors and nurses were so they wouldn't receive any calls, and (c) nobody had a list of satphone numbers so if you wanted to call to the hospital across town, you didn't know their number to do so. But hey, they had comms, right?

I will say that the vast majority of folks down there took it all in stride. Everybody I met was very warm, friendly, and would tell me their disaster story like we'd talk about beer and football, very matter-of-factly. They adopted an expression "Puerto Rico Se Levanta" or "Puerto Rico is rising" in English. They truly are emerging from the 3rd world conditions that existed right after the hurricane. All of the 3.4 million inhabitants down there were impacted in some way. On the other side of that coin, driving became Mad Max. No such thing as a four-way stop when the lights don't work. Whoever had the biggest balls or the most beat-up hoopdee would get thru first. Sometimes, traffic would lock up because they'd be having a "Puerto Rican standoff". I guess it was considered cowardly to let someone else go first. At this intersection, it took almost 5 minutes before somebody backed up and traffic started flowing again:

Link Posted: 11/23/2017 4:21:37 PM EDT
[#12]
so we have the basics of shelter food-water and energy/ heating.

food is about storage look at the Mormon preparedness manual , it will help you get organized and is the best basic food storage text i have seen and it is free to download:

lds preparedness manual

i do as they recommend with a combo of canned food and long term storage food.    i get my dehydrated foods from honeyville they have been in business for a long time and ship any order for 4.49 .
honeyville

water storage is up to you how do plan on getting water? well stream, storage, roof runoff all need to be investigated, i have a 12 volt rv pump to run water from an outdoor source to my indoor plumbing ,get a drinking water safe hose from the rv department in a store or on line to use for your drinking water.

next we have shelter,  covered in the manual , but what type of catastrophes will happen in your area, a tornado, localized and remainder of country is unaffected,  so plan for what has happened in your area of the country.  if you have basic preparedness done you will be able to weather any storm.    have an alternate place to shelter that you can go to. an rv, someones home , a vacation cottage.

energy/heating  can you run your house with  the power shut off?  what is your available water/sewage situation , will it function without grid power?  if not figure out how to maintain your utilities.  i have a multi-fuel generator, solar panels and a 12 volt battery/inverter system available to me , i have built these over time.

if you don't have power your house will be unlivable in short order.

i built my power  system piecemeal, i had first bought a large generator but they are short term and are thirsty beasts, so i bought a small generator , then i realized that the generator makes more power than i need at one time , so i bought a couple 12 volt deep cycle batteries at wal-mart hook them up in parallel and got a 1750 watt inverter that i hooked to some jumper cables, so now i can store power when the generator is not running, i can add batteries to increase capacity if i need to.  i have a 30 amp fully automatic battery charger  that keeps the battery bank fully charged at all times,   then solar panels became economically viable so i added 2 100 watt panels built into a portable frame to stretch my battery power and recharge without gasoline.  i can hook the generator or the inverter to my house to energize circuits in the house, i have been changing over to led bulbs to further conserve energy on lighting.   the deep cycle batteries last about 5 years and cost about $80 dollars each.  i keep two of the harbor freight 800 watt generators to act as battery chargers and will run for 6 hours on a gallon of gas and power my battery charger.  have thought about getting a honda 2000 watt as this is the gold standard.  i have built this over about 20 years.  my harbor freight generators have always started and ran easily , i keep  about a gallon of 2 cycle oil for them, my large genrator has always started and ran , i recycle 30 gallons of gasoline every 6 months i add stabil to the gas , it has always ran the cars and mowers and generators without problem.

i had a power outage for about 4 hours when it was raining hard, i knew i would need to run my sump pump in the basement so i hooked to inverter to the batteries and ran an extension cord to the pump, took about 2 minutes and it ran the pump easily for 4 hours until power cam back on.

i test my system every 6 months
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 5:29:35 PM EDT
[#13]
One of the PR hams that I worked with told me he would get up and crank up the generator for about 4 hours in the early morning and shut it down. Then he'd go off to do what he could for the relief effort. Then in the evening, he'd run the generator for another 4 hours, turn it off, and go to bed. That gave him light when he needed it at home, he could charge his batteries for the ham radio at his house, a fan and portable A/C to cool the bedroom down, and kept his fridge and freezer cold. He said luckily after the first couple of weeks, fuel became easy to get. But, he said he kept a month's worth of fuel and would refill as often as he could so he always had a month's power.

Not having city sewer pumping would make the house here unusable. We're pretty near sea level so there isn't any way for gravity to help. Everything needs to be pumped. In the last couple of hurricanes here, the city had generators at the pump houses. They only had about 3 days worth of fuel in them, though so they had to refill it twice in the week or so the power was out here.

In PR, they could expect to get deliveries by sea in a few days after the event. In the case of a nation-wide grid down, nothing is going anywhere. Disasters are always "come as you are" parties. If you don't have something when the disaster hits, you're unlikely to be able to get it if you need it. Another big lesson for me. We've grown accustomed to clicking the link and stuff gets delivered in a day or two. When that falls apart, there is a world of hurt coming.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 5:38:12 PM EDT
[#14]
What's the current death toll down there.

And yes, OP, you have served.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 5:43:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Maria hit PR on September 20th and I arrived on Oct. 13th, so about 3 weeks after. The story I got was during the first week, nobody knew anything. There were some opportunistic A-holes that decided since 911 was offline, it would be OK to start looting. Not everywhere, but enough places that people started chaining their generators and being on edge. There were precisely ZERO gas stations with fuel. Zip. No cell or land lines, no running water anywhere. The second week appeared to be an "assessment" and engagement in actually responding to the event. They started getting generators going at the water departments in the big cities. Only about half the hospitals were open during week 2. Around the 28th-29th, the group of 22 hams that ARRL recruited for the Red Cross arrived and got dispatched to their assigned locations. Some of those guys had it hard, some not so much. Truth is, they were the only ones who could communicate more than 3-4 miles for the first couple of weeks.

When I got to San Juan, there were <hundreds> of guys with guns wandering around in the Joint Field Office. It wasn't clear to me whether FEMA was paranoid or whether these guys were there for some other reason. About a week later, they started moving some of those guys out to parts of the island to help the local police with law and order. Some looting, but mostly generator and fuel thefts. Some of the cell repair crews stopped going out briefly because they were being robbed at gun point or their shit stolen. About 4 days after I got there, there was a group of Army folks that was in Vieques that was doing survivor contact going into neighborhoods and talking to individuals to see how they were doing. In one remote area, they came under fire from drug runners. They managed to unass the area without getting anybody killed but they had no way of communicating back to HQ. They managed to find a local Puerto Rican ham that helped them contact San Juan to get help. A few hours later, there was a big, armed strike team dispatched to go clean house.

After I got to Ponce, the public safety repeater that had been brought on-line for police, fire, and EMS to use went down. Yep, some POS stole the generator at the repeater site. Before I left, it happened again and both the generator and the two guards went missing. The day that I left, a lady told me a story about when she had gone up into the mountains with her team, they came across a small neighborhood where there were three houses fiarly close together. She said the first house was only lightly damaged but within a few days, somebody stole their generator. The second house had a little old lady that was on oxygen and had a generator. Her house had gotten badly damaged, and her generator got stolen, too. The third house was damaged but they took their generator to the first house and moved the little old lady there. They also stood watch to make sure it didn't walk away.

Before I left, it was common for folks from around the city and the surrounding towns to come to the working shopping malls that had power, A/C, water, and food, and stay there from the time they opened to the time they closed. I saw dozens of folks who brought a power strip, plugged it in to an outlet, and were charging half a dozen cell phones and tablets. The whole time I was there, people would be driving down the road and suddenly would get a cell signal, they'd pull off to the side of the road and use the phone. Cell service was spotty when I got there, and just as spotty when I left. Power restoration initially was directed towards banks (so people could cash their FEMA checks or use ATMs) and shopping centers followed by government buildings. People's homes were way, way down on the list for getting power restored. Quite the opposite of what you'd expect to see here on the mainland.

It took a month to get the 911 center operational and another 2 weeks to be able to contact the various municipal police/fire/EMS departments to actually <dispatch> anybody. About 2 days before I left, we got word that on Vieques, there was a fire station that had no comms still. If there was a fire at your house, you had to drive to the fire station and tell them your house was burning down yourself.

I blame FEMA for having their head up and locked on comms. Giving a hospital a satphone and saying they have "comms" now is beyond ridiculous. Any moron would have realized that (a) satphones have to be used outside, (b) satphones aren't usable indoors where all the doctors and nurses were so they wouldn't receive any calls, and (c) nobody had a list of satphone numbers so if you wanted to call to the hospital across town, you didn't know their number to do so. But hey, they had comms, right?

I will say that the vast majority of folks down there took it all in stride. Everybody I met was very warm, friendly, and would tell me their disaster story like we'd talk about beer and football, very matter-of-factly. They adopted an expression "Puerto Rico Se Levanta" or "Puerto Rico is rising" in English. They truly are emerging from the 3rd world conditions that existed right after the hurricane. All of the 3.4 million inhabitants down there were impacted in some way. On the other side of that coin, driving became Mad Max. No such thing as a four-way stop when the lights don't work. Whoever had the biggest balls or the most beat-up hoopdee would get thru first. Sometimes, traffic would lock up because they'd be having a "Puerto Rican standoff". I guess it was considered cowardly to let someone else go first. At this intersection, it took almost 5 minutes before somebody backed up and traffic started flowing again:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/191393/20171113_144812-363958.jpg
View Quote
Thanks for the report. I was a mile from the Tornado that took out Washington IL a few years back, I had an appointment that took me right thru the middle of the carnage, it was surreal and made me take stock of how I would be prepared next time.

The wife and I have an earnest prep plan in place, 6 mo of food with 1 mo of stored water, but we have a well and are on a gravity bed septic system, plus a propane/gas fueled genny that can run  80% of the homes needs, electric heat so if a disruption in natural gas happened we would still have basic heat. We just relocated to a more obscure location that if you didn't know it was there you would never drive down that road.

Again great reporting and definitely reading your other post on the radio net you worked. That was the other item we invested in, UHF comms with a repeater for 3 county coverage and local repeater as well as a mix of VHF/UHF comms, analog/P25 and encrypted plus all LEO and Fire with RX and TX if needed (we are with EMA so get a little okay on TX access-Plus a XTS5000 FPP) Everyone should be ready with alt comms and preps.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 8:46:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What's the current death toll down there.

And yes, OP, you have served.
View Quote
Last number I saw before i left was around 100. Problem is, evidently they can't declare someone deceased until the medical examiner has given an official cause of death. So, since the ME is backed up, they are only reporting the "processed" casualties. There will most likely be many more unless they really step up their game to get provisions in to the remote areas.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 9:38:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Good info.

Take note those who believe a EMP event would shut down the grid and 90% of the US population would die.
Link Posted: 11/24/2017 7:32:36 AM EDT
[#18]
One good thing to have is the biolite thermoelectric generator cook stove. It’s tiny and fits in your backpack. When your iPhone or iPad with all your coms and survival manuals goes down from lack of power. You take the little cook top off. Throw some trash, pine cones, small sticks, etc...in it. Light it up and keep feeding it slowly. When it has enough heat to make electricity a little fan comes on and the flames turn into a little tornado. Keep feeding the flames with pinecones. After another minute a green light comes on and then you charge your iPhone, etc... and make some lunch. It’s great fun on camping trips and pretty cheap to add to your preps.
Link Posted: 11/24/2017 3:01:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One good thing to have is the biolite thermoelectric generator cook stove. It’s tiny and fits in your backpack. When your iPhone or iPad with all your coms and survival manuals goes down from lack of power. You take the little cook top off. Throw some trash, pine cones, small sticks, etc...in it. Light it up and keep feeding it slowly. When it has enough heat to make electricity a little fan comes on and the flames turn into a little tornado. Keep feeding the flames with pinecones. After another minute a green light comes on and then you charge your iPhone, etc... and make some lunch. It’s great fun on camping trips and pretty cheap to add to your preps.
View Quote
I've been looking at those and wondering how good they are. What I ended up taking with me down there was a Bioenno PowerPack 400 and an ACO Power 105W folding solar panel. The PowerPack was the shiznit. It has a built-in solar charge controller, a 300W cont/500W surge pure sine wave inverter, DC and USB output, and has a 35Ah LiFePO4 battery inside. The ACO Power folding panel folds into thirds, which made it just narrow enough to fit in a rolling duffel. When I was down there, I drained the Bioenno battery to about half capacity. In full sun, the solar charge controller was putting in 81W back to the battery from the solar panel.
Link Posted: 11/29/2017 9:32:31 AM EDT
[#20]
i am taking the ARRL emcomm course and your posts have been well received.  i have passed on links to your posts so that others can share your experience

alex
Link Posted: 11/29/2017 5:29:44 PM EDT
[#21]
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i am taking the ARRL emcomm course and your posts have been well received.  i have passed on links to your posts so that others can share your experience

alex
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Excellent! Glad to hear this info is being used by the broader ham community. I hope that the experiences of myself and the other hams that went there can be used to encourage more hams to take a more active part in their community's emergency response. In addition, I hope more hams get to the point where they can be grid-power independent, at least for the first week or two. The few down there that had the ability were extremely busy and worked very long hours, particularly right after the storm.

Our local emcomm group was just talking about the newly re-released ARRL emcomm course. I asked if living it for 6 weeks counted as credit. He said I didn't pay ARRL money, so no.

I got asked to put together something for our local city council by the emcomm liaison. Seeing the reality on the ground there was a real eye-opener about how quickly all the ultra-modern digital stuff can tank so very badly. I'm going to suggest that the city make Amateur Radio an integral part of the city's emergency response plan rather than an ancillary add-on only when needed. I'm sure a lot of the city leaders down there thought they had a good plan in place. Turns out they didn't, and things fell apart rather rapidly.
Link Posted: 12/2/2017 10:20:47 PM EDT
[#22]
About 5 years ago, at our ham club, we had a presentation done by a local Red Cross rep. He basically said that they did not need any help from hams (amateur radio operators) during emergencies. It makes you wonder why he even showed up to make the presentation. He said that they would rather have IT professionals during grid down situation. Perhaps they think their high dollar computer networks will be running just fine, as long as there is an IT guy on each end who can magically fix it, like in the movies.
I'm glad that guy is no longer responsible for our area. The new lady called us to help them set up a ham station at their Red Cross building here in town. I was helping them to come up with a budgetary numbers to make it happen. We did a site survey to find out what they need. I was surprised that they don't even have a backup generator for the building.

Another thing worth mentioning. Our club also had a presentation by a guy who is the emergency coordinator for the county. He was very knowledgeable but one thing he said, really surprised me. He basically told us that if anything major happens, they will do nothing until a national emergency is declared. They have no funds for anything like that. They only get funds from the feds if a national emergency is declared by the president. Makes you wonder, huh?
Link Posted: 12/4/2017 11:28:26 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:
About 5 years ago, at our ham club, we had a presentation done by a local Red Cross rep. He basically said that they did not need any help from hams (amateur radio operators) during emergencies. It makes you wonder why he even showed up to make the presentation. He said that they would rather have IT professionals during grid down situation. Perhaps they think their high dollar computer networks will be running just fine, as long as there is an IT guy on each end who can magically fix it, like in the movies.
I'm glad that guy is no longer responsible for our area. The new lady called us to help them set up a ham station at their Red Cross building here in town. I was helping them to come up with a budgetary numbers to make it happen. We did a site survey to find out what they need. I was surprised that they don't even have a backup generator for the building.

Another thing worth mentioning. Our club also had a presentation by a guy who is the emergency coordinator for the county. He was very knowledgeable but one thing he said, really surprised me. He basically told us that if anything major happens, they will do nothing until a national emergency is declared. They have no funds for anything like that. They only get funds from the feds if a national emergency is declared by the president. Makes you wonder, huh?
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That's actually pretty sad. The notion you don't need those "old-fashioned radio thingies" is precisely why the Red Cross, FEMA, local municipalities, and even the National Guard got caught so flat-footed in Puerto Rico. We've become so accustomed to having cell and internet that we can't imagine doing without and don't know how to recover from their loss. As for funding, it takes time to get a disaster declaration. So, unless the declaration is done beforehand (typical for hurricanes, takes time for things like earthquake, CME, etc.) then the local governments need to have some interim ability to start the response and recovery process, particularly initial search and rescue. If they don't they need a new emergency manager.
Link Posted: 12/4/2017 1:04:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 12/4/2017 2:04:04 PM EDT
[#25]
Puerto Rico is Puerto Rico.  If you live on a Caribbean island, you'd better be prepared for 160 mph winds and the entire electrical grid & comms to go down.  Evac plan is a boat that will probably be destroyed by the same storm that ripped off your solar panels and your roof, and dropped a tree on your generator and pump house.

New Orleans and Houston are pretty good recent examples of total SHTF.  If you live below sea level, best to have a 2 story house, and a good evacuation plan.  Electrical in and around Houston got restored pretty quickly.  Some of the smaller municipal water supplies (Beaumont) took weeks.  All the sudden having a hot tub or pool isn't such a bad idea.

Do most municipal codes prohibit urbanites from drilling water wells?  There's generally not room for a septic system in town; if you have enough land for a septic system in town, you've got enough money to have a bug-out location w/ one.

Keep in mind that big solar panel systems go down w/ the grid unless you have a big battery backup.  In full sunlight they're generating 10s of KWs, so when the grid goes down they turn off unless they have a big battery bank to dump it into.

ETA:  the crime in the Houston area after the storm was rather low.  Some National Guard units were sent w/ weapons & ammo, and most of it sat in improvised arms rooms.  Most folks pulled together, pretty remarkable given the millions of folks affected.  The Cajun Navy was a remarkable and greatly appreciated achievement.
Link Posted: 12/4/2017 10:53:03 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
Puerto Rico is Puerto Rico.  If you live on a Caribbean island, you'd better be prepared for 160 mph winds and the entire electrical grid & comms to go down.  Evac plan is a boat that will probably be destroyed by the same storm that ripped off your solar panels and your roof, and dropped a tree on your generator and pump house.

New Orleans and Houston are pretty good recent examples of total SHTF.  If you live below sea level, best to have a 2 story house, and a good evacuation plan.  Electrical in and around Houston got restored pretty quickly.  Some of the smaller municipal water supplies (Beaumont) took weeks.  All the sudden having a hot tub or pool isn't such a bad idea.

Do most municipal codes prohibit urbanites from drilling water wells?  There's generally not room for a septic system in town; if you have enough land for a septic system in town, you've got enough money to have a bug-out location w/ one.

Keep in mind that big solar panel systems go down w/ the grid unless you have a big battery backup.  In full sunlight they're generating 10s of KWs, so when the grid goes down they turn off unless they have a big battery bank to dump it into.

ETA:  the crime in the Houston area after the storm was rather low.  Some National Guard units were sent w/ weapons & ammo, and most of it sat in improvised arms rooms.  Most folks pulled together, pretty remarkable given the millions of folks affected.  The Cajun Navy was a remarkable and greatly appreciated achievement.
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The solar farms I saw in Puerto Rico were totally destroyed. It looked like confetti fields. I would say the majority of the windmills probably are still in working condition from what I could tell although none of them were turning due to the transmission line failures making there no place for the power to go. I remember when I was in high school, going down to South Padre Island in Texas and hearing my dad talking with builders down there. Even back then, they'd have no "living space" below 12 feet above mean high tide. And everybody built their houses on massive wood pilings that they'd put down 30-40ft to get to bedrock. I wonder if the building codes are as strict now.

I guess it just boggled my mind that any Americans would have to wait almost a month to see any real help from anybody. Granted, that was on an island, but still. My next door neighbor has a decently deep well but I don't know if is functional or not. Other folks in the neighborhood have very shallow wells and they are the ones with the rust on the sidewalks because their shallow well water has so much iron in it. Rule of 3s says getting water is a top priority. Figuring out a place for waste when the sewer stops working could be just as important if you live in the city or suburbs. A month's food is trivial to store but that assumes your house survives whatever disaster you're prepping for. CME/Solar Flare, EMP, probably not an issue. Cat 5 hurricane or 8.9 earthquake, definitely an issue.
Link Posted: 12/4/2017 11:45:11 PM EDT
[#27]
The threat in north Texas is tornadoes.  Nothing you can build, short of a solid concrete shelter dug into the ground, is gonna survive a tornado.  All your food preps?  Gone.  Bug out vehicle?  Gone.  Propane tank and generator?  Gone.  What are you better off having?  3 years of food preps, a whole house generator & a propane take to feed it, or a tornado shelter?  Clearly, the tornado shelter.

So it depends on your AO.  Puerto Rico & New Orleans you're clearly best evacuating @ the 1st sign of a hurricane - which for Puerto Rico is probably half the year.  Houston?  2 story house, generator, bottled water or hottub/pool, some gas/diesel/propane for the generator, a few weeks of food preps.  Dallas to Kansas City?  You're wanting a tornado shelter, which you can expand into your fallout shelter if you want, & store your food preps & bottled water in it.  California?  Maybe you want to live in a bouncy house?  
Link Posted: 12/5/2017 10:34:16 AM EDT
[#28]
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Look at the pics of Hiroshima. The bridge that is still standing was supposedly the aiming point for the drop. There was a large concrete and steel building (church or something from the looks of it) within a few hundred meters of the bridge that was still standing, most everything else was gone.

How are prisons typically built? Block poured solid with rebar.

Worst case scenario you may have a poured solid wall structure left (even if roof was gone) that you could camp inside of with the walls still providing cover, while you rebuilt.

Interesting story a lot of new "preppers" should read, as the  prevailing mindset with new preppers seems to be BS like "you can always buy food" and "no one needs a year supply of food." I used to say things like you may be out of work for six months and being able to dip into your food storage will help with the bills. People poo poo'ed that saying "no one is out of work for six months."  Not long after the economy went to shit with the housing bubble popping and it was an everyday occurrence to hear of people that had been "out of work" for 8-12 months. People stopped poo'pooing the idea of a year supply of food storage after that. But alas, as Amerikans, we have a very short memory span.....
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There is a difference between old school Survivalists and "Preppers"- we don't talk about it much in the "kinder gentler" internet age...but its' a real thing.

Personally, I'm a survivalist, raised on the idea that the Russians were going to drop a shit ton of nuclear weapons on us and pretty much destroy the infrastructure of the entire country in an almost permanent and unrecoverable fashion. That is what we prepared for. Being out of work for a year or a hurricane or earthquake are by comparison, not that big of a deal vs. the collapse and destruction of an entire civilization.
Link Posted: 12/5/2017 2:16:22 PM EDT
[#29]
From a prepper perspective, what worked in my situation here in Puerto Rico was being prepared for the catastrophic event with a lot of anticipation.

I had water in storage before the hurricane season began.
The fuel cans for the generator were filled at the moment that tropical storm Irma watches were posted by the NHC. Food we had enough of the canned stuff, like corned beef, vienna sausages, tuna and vegetables and beans, rice and pasta. Perishable foods we had enough for two weeks in the fridge.
The area where I live is not prone to flooding or landslides and the coast is about 4000 thousand feets away. Also, the house is constructed of concrete walls and roof with security and storm windows and doors.
The hurricane season starts in june and ends on the 30 of november, so that is a long span of time where the Island is susceptible to be affected by a major hurricane. By preparing with time, I never had to do long lines to get fuel or food or water.
The only thing that took me offguard, was the complete shutdown of the communication infrastructure. We had no means to communicate with family or friends.
Link Posted: 12/5/2017 2:43:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Tell us more about your roof.  Do you know how fast the sustained winds were @ your location, and do you remember how long the storm lashed you?  Glad you were prepared and I hope your extended family & friends are doing well.  Obviously you've got internet back - what are you using?
Link Posted: 12/6/2017 2:14:35 PM EDT
[#31]
The roof is a concrete slab reinforced with rebar. I guess that after the concrete and cinder block outside and inside walls are done, the roof slab is poured.
The strong winds of the hurricane started to be felt by midnight and they lasted up until10 am. As to the wind speed I have no idea, all I can say is that rain was coming horizontally and hitting the windows as if a pressure washer was being used. Water was pouring trough the unions of the windows louvers. That night I spent my time betwen swabbing all the water that was coming through the windows and checking that the front door and garage door were ok.
The winds torn from its hinges a double door steel gate on the back of the patio. First, the wind pressure bended the 1/2 inch steel rods that anchor the doors to the ground and the one that latches the halves together until it opened and then the wind started flapping them until they detached from the wall. I saw one of the halves floating on the air in the middle of the street, and that thing is 5 X 7 feet.
In regard of the communications, I think that for one and a halve week we have no celular signal. Then the celular providers authorized the use of the available cell towers to be used by everyone. For example my cell provider is ATT, I had no signal from ATT but was able to get signal from CLARO. That was limited to voice and text. Also, in the local police station ATT deployed a mobile antena with limited coverage range and you could connect via WIFI to the internet as long as you were close to the station.
Then my wife bought two phones from TMOBILE which have had signal, with everything included and we have been able to make regular contact with the rest of the world.
Link Posted: 12/6/2017 3:11:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Sounds like a concrete roof is the ticket down there.  Glad you and yours are ok.
Link Posted: 12/7/2017 9:33:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Seems like the concrete bunker type houses fared pretty well, the stick built structures not so much. If I move back to Texas, I may have to think about such a thing. There were some supposedly "tornado proof" houses that have been built in both Texas and Oklahoma that were concrete and foam bead walls that would absorb impacts.

I had a FEMA-issued iPhony and my personal T-Mobile Android phone. T-Mobile by far had the more reliable connection, although both they and Claro would drop, sometimes simultaneously. I had one or the other stop working in the middle of a call and I couldn't call back. I had a couple of times where I was replying to an email and the internet would die before I could send the message. And there were still quite a few places where neither phone would have any service at all.

It was somewhat of an eerie sight to be going along on a freeway and you'd come up on 25 cars in a line up along the side of the road. Once folks would spot they had service, they'd all dive off the road to use their phones. Crazy.
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