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Posted: 11/29/2007 12:35:16 PM EDT
For all you out there that will only rely/use a GPS, consider this:

www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/china/asat.htm

The first thing they'll do is take out our GPS and communications satellites.
This may be a SHTF situation that "only" involves the dispute with Taiwan. But you
can bet they'll try to cripple our comms and take away our GPS. If they do, it'll
affect us over here. This could then easily escalate out of everyones' control.

These people are competing directly with us for resources. Reminds me of Japan
pre WWII.

Anyway, while one still can, get skilled on a map and compass. You won't regret
it.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 1:23:57 PM EDT
The Chinese took out a non functioning weather satellite at approximately 530 miles of altitude according to that article, supposedly close to the altitude of our reconnaissance satellites. Our GPS satellites are up around 12,600 miles according to Wikipedia, so they still have a ways to go.

Still good old fashioned land nav skills are a must have.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 1:39:19 PM EDT
Yeah they are flexing their muscles a bit, just gotta build up a little more ass now to take on a venture like Taiwan.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 1:43:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hrd2thecore:
The Chinese took out a non functioning weather satellite at approximately 530 miles of altitude according to that article, supposedly close to the altitude of our reconnaissance satellites. Our GPS satellites are up around 12,600 miles according to Wikipedia, so they still have a ways to go.

Still good old fashioned land nav skills are a must have.



SHUT THE HELL UP!



Seriously. I suck a lot at Land Nav so hardcore it's like I'm retarded.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 1:43:28 PM EDT
How will I get home?
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 1:59:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 2:01:34 PM EDT by Forest]
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 2:10:19 PM EDT
Land nav was fun, it's trying to get the maps that suck. Guess I'd better start ordering.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 2:18:57 PM EDT
Current-Resident,

The two easiest and fastest techniques for long distance land nav are Hand Railing and Backstopping.

To Hand Rail find a terrain feature such as a road or ridgeline that moves in the same direction as you would like to go, and just parallel it. Even if it is miles away as long as it gives you a visual reference. That way you dont have to stop and check your compass as often.

Backstopping is finding a significant terrain feature such as a road, ridge, river etc. that will let you know when you have gone far enough or overshot your distance on an azimuth. So instead of counting paces for 10k, find a linear terrain feature that crosses your path at around that distance and just move out. When you encounter your specific terrain feature, you know the distance you have covered, and can take a quick stop to terrain associate yourself with your map again for a solid fix and continue on the next leg.

Its the quick and dirty way to move long distances. Granted terrain can make it difficult in flat desert or extremely mountainous terrain, but it works most places.

Link Posted: 11/29/2007 3:21:54 PM EDT
They acquired the technology to accurately navigate/launch satellites
for "commercial" purposes. They can hit satellites over the horizon. All
it takes is a little pre positioning, some effective cyber-war and the take
down of the ground relay stations to blind us. They are spending more
of their GDP on defense than most will admit.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 3:32:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Edited due to a brain fart.

It would take the Chi-Coms quite a while to down ALL our satellites as they can only hit the ones over their country. They might not like the response we send them...


Their new ASAT weapon is limited, but in an emergency, they could put up several large-yield thermonuclear devices into orbit and detonate them. Most of the orbiting satellites in LOS would be fried. The Army War College runs war games frequently for executive level decision makers, and modern wars with Russia and China almost inevitably result in large-scale EMP/nuke strikes against all of our orbital assets.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 3:40:13 PM EDT
I know this is slightly off topic.

I don't rely solely on a GPS because of what I saw in the Army's Jungle School. One squad used only a GPS when they ran the land navigation course. These poor bastards stumbled in...LITERALLY stumbled in at 0400 hours.

Buy a high quality compass and learn how to use it.

Medicguy
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 4:18:35 PM EDT
Why bother trying to hit any of the 27 (including spares) GPS sats, when all you have to do is hit the primary or backup GPS contol centers. Lot more bang for the buck. Once the European system is up and running, there will be more sats, guess that may make it harder to take both systems down, or create a "dead" nav spot on the map. Once dual system handheld units hit the shelves I will get one, but in the meantime, time to brush up on my map reading skills.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 5:21:16 PM EDT
I bet we have back up sats ready to launch.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 5:41:05 PM EDT
I bet we have ground and air defensive measures to protect our satellite assets from attack. They are far to valuable to leave undefended.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 7:57:45 PM EDT
Analog in a digital world!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:24:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 8:35:34 PM EDT by Black-Tiger]

Originally Posted By runningman-2001:
They acquired the technology to accurately navigate/launch satellites
for "commercial" purposes. They can hit satellites over the horizon. All
it takes is a little pre positioning, some effective cyber-war and the take
down of the ground relay stations to blind us. They are spending more
of their GDP on defense than most will admit.


Isn't that the same thing the Russians did before they spent their way into the poorhouse in the 70s and 80s?

Well, nothing that a good compass (an M2 Artillery Compass), a protractor and a map won't fix. Beside, sniper rifles bullets don't need GPS guidance.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:52:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 8:54:30 PM EDT by Ziggy2c]


Isn't that the same thing the Russians did before they spent their way into the poorhouse in the 70s and 80s?

well yes but we weren't importing everything from the Russians.
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 7:02:11 AM EDT
I can actually turn off the GPS receiver and use it just as a maping device. Complete with sun rise and set, road maps, street addresses, topo and water navigation. I use a Garmin 76CS and couldn't be happier.
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 7:09:52 AM EDT
I really am amazed that in the survivalist world, people plan on relying on an electronic, satelite fed device. They sure are nice, but I consider these to be a luxury toy, compared to good maps and decent navigation skills.

I mean really, think of all the things that could make then junk:

EMP
Foreign agency takes them out
The military decides to scramble them to keep the enemy from using them
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 6:34:42 PM EDT
If the Chinese were to try EMP ON US, we'd EMP them - it's that simple. And I don't think they will be able to feed their 1.2 billion people as easily as we'll be able to feed our 330 million in an "blown back to 1890" world.

We have dozens of old coal fired locomotives sitting on tracks around the country that could be put into action...and dozens of cottage industries that could crank out spare parts for more in a 'pull out all the stops' action.

Then there are all our pre-1980 cars still sitting in collector's garages hither and yon. We won't be totally without cars in a post EMP world.

Plus we have the Amish. Who do the Chinese have?

Link Posted: 11/30/2007 6:55:47 PM EDT
[tin hat on] Don't the chineese make all of the gps units, couldn't they have programed them to shut down on december 7th 2007 [tin hat off].
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 7:19:38 PM EDT
Great timing on this thread...

I just bought a Silva Ranger. No batteries, no satellites, it always works.
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 8:25:58 PM EDT
Make no mistake, I have plenty of experience with both maps and navigating. Barring a failure of my GPS, I perfer all the extra information it allows access to. Even with NO satilite coverage, I still have a complete USA map and USA topo map in a floating water proof package smaller than a single AR magazine.
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 9:46:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
If the Chinese were to try EMP ON US, we'd EMP them - it's that simple. And I don't think they will be able to feed their 1.2 billion people as easily as we'll be able to feed our 330 million in an "blown back to 1890" world.

We have dozens of old coal fired locomotives sitting on tracks around the country that could be put into action...and dozens of cottage industries that could crank out spare parts for more in a 'pull out all the stops' action.

Then there are all our pre-1980 cars still sitting in collector's garages hither and yon. We won't be totally without cars in a post EMP world.

Plus we have the Amish. Who do the Chinese have?

I think you're off base on that, Jus...

China still has half a billion people who don't have electricity or running water. How would they even notice an EMP strike?

We might have a handful old coal locomotives on display somewhre, but they still use them as their primary mover. They got lots of em.

Do we have enough "pre-1980 cars still sitting in collector's garages" to continue anything close to our way of life when most < 20 year old cars are fried? Or would millions of Chinese on their bikes laugh at us?

Link Posted: 11/30/2007 9:56:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2007 9:57:46 PM EDT by mmx1]
Shit, I thought it was going to be about this:
www.winterson.com/2005/06/episode-iii-backstroke-of-west.html

Link Posted: 12/1/2007 9:18:53 PM EDT
It really won't surprise me if we end up at risk of war with the Chinese in my lifetime. If that happens, I fully expect it will be because they believe they have found ways to neutralize our primary advantages (like satellites), and to disrupt our key computer systems for military and power grid kinds of things, and they also have the ability to launch enough nukes at us to make the costs of battle unacceptable to us. I don't think they'll start anything unless and until they think they can "win," which probably means f-ing us up worse that we can f- them up. I'll leave it at that.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 9:54:01 PM EDT
Get skilled on a map and compass. You won't regret
it.


Sound advice.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 2:40:48 AM EDT
Ain't skeered. We've had this ability since the early 70's, as an unclassified technology. I'm sure we've spent mucho effort to protect the GPS constellation, as alot of our technology depends on it. The US .mil is aaaall about contingency planning....
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 12:30:15 PM EDT
The only issue I have with GPS is that the government can turn on Selective Availability again.

Remember when GPS was only good for about a 350 foot bubble? The Feds claimed it was for "National Security" interests.

Turning off the Selective Availability was the only good thing Clinton did. The GPS market took off after that.

On a side note, the US military has since developed a new system that provides the ability to deny GPS (and other navigation services) to hostile forces in a specific area of crisis without affecting the rest of the world or its own military systems.

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