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Posted: 2/9/2013 9:43:53 PM EDT
Is there any other sleeping bag systems out there that come close to the price of the ECWS military 4 piece system and does it (-30deg) for the cost of $100? I know the military system is heavy but it will keep you warm and dry. Just looking for options but want to maintain the warmth and waterproofness but could give up on the weight. I could go up to say $150-175 if the "other" bags can compare but do it with less weight.

thanks
Link Posted: 2/10/2013 4:44:19 AM EDT
If you check ebay, sometimes you can find the ECWS systems on there in that price range.
Link Posted: 2/10/2013 4:54:17 AM EDT
Perhaps a gently-used Wiggys or Snugpack system could be what you are seeking.
Link Posted: 2/10/2013 6:15:11 AM EDT
I see the ecws system on eBay for $100 or less all the time. Just asking for the money or a little more is there anything that beats it?
Link Posted: 2/10/2013 7:43:05 AM EDT
Not sure on what is good, but several surplus bags looked interesting to me here:


By the way, Im so low speed that my bag is LL Bean, and all I do is basement camping when the storms hit... Hopefully the stuff here is worth the click...

(PS: I have no affiliation with the site. Disregard if you've already been there.)
Link Posted: 2/10/2013 7:49:02 AM EDT
For $20 difference I'd just pick up a new bag at USRO.

I got a new bag for $119 a couple weeks ago. Last year I bought what was described as a lightly used bag from a Falfiler. I got his last bag and it was a bit more wear on it that I wanted for $100 plus shipping.

I also still have my old fat and heavy army Extreme Cold Weather Sleeping bag. The old style cotton outer bag, down and insulation in plastic tubes inside.

Anyone have an opinion on which bag is warmer in the winter? The old USGI Extreme cold weather bags or the later ECWCS system bags?

I hope to get a winter snowmobile camping trip in again this year and try out the new bag.
Link Posted: 2/10/2013 1:29:04 PM EDT
http://www.armygear.net/ag/store/search.html?tf=sku&bs=1&em=1&su=1&ml=15&fi=products&st=db&tf=prod_group&sf=category&se=Sleeping%20Bags

Probably the best prices.

I have slept in the old Extreme cold weather bag to -30F and been warm. at -15, I had to vent the bag as I was getting too hot but they are heavy.

DaveUSAF
Link Posted: 2/10/2013 1:40:16 PM EDT
Try campmor good prices
Link Posted: 2/10/2013 3:30:35 PM EDT
You won't get that peformance and versatility at anywhere near that price. Remember, you are getting two bags. You won't get two civi bags that will do anything close to the ecws for $200

The green bag is a good warmish weather bag, but the black one and the two together are really suck for backpacking

Go with a good down bag for the winter, but it will cost you

I used this to sleep in the blizzard this weekend, and have had it down lower before. By adjusting clothing it is versatile, but too warm in some winter weather. Your better bet would be to get bags that fit your area and your camping expectations, but you can not beat the ecws system for price.

This weekend-


Link Posted: 2/10/2013 3:51:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adluginb:
Is there any other sleeping bag systems out there that come close to the price of the ECWS military 4 piece system and does it (-30deg) for the cost of $100? I know the military system is heavy but it will keep you warm and dry. Just looking for options but want to maintain the warmth and waterproofness but could give up on the weight. I could go up to say $150-175 if the "other" bags can compare but do it with less weight.

thanks


Not just no, but heck no.

You can't buy a goretex bivy for what you can get the MSS.


Link Posted: 2/10/2013 4:48:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
You won't get that peformance and versatility at anywhere near that price. Remember, you are getting two bags. You won't get two civi bags that will do anything close to the ecws for $200

The green bag is a good warmish weather bag, but the black one and the two together are really suck for backpacking

Go with a good down bag for the winter, but it will cost you

I used this to sleep in the blizzard this weekend, and have had it down lower before. By adjusting clothing it is versatile, but too warm in some winter weather. Your better bet would be to get bags that fit your area and your camping expectations, but you can not beat the ecws system for price.

This weekend-

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr45/_matt_arf/image_zpsf9944fe5.jpg



Link Posted: 2/10/2013 5:36:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jeep903:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
You won't get that peformance and versatility at anywhere near that price. Remember, you are getting two bags. You won't get two civi bags that will do anything close to the ecws for $200

The green bag is a good warmish weather bag, but the black one and the two together are really suck for backpacking

Go with a good down bag for the winter, but it will cost you

I used this to sleep in the blizzard this weekend, and have had it down lower before. By adjusting clothing it is versatile, but too warm in some winter weather. Your better bet would be to get bags that fit your area and your camping expectations, but you can not beat the ecws system for price.

This weekend-

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr45/_matt_arf/image_zpsf9944fe5.jpg






What, the price?
Big agnes msrp is kinda high, stuff always seems to be on sale
I think I paid $275 or so. Now is not a good time to get deals on winter gear tho...
Link Posted: 2/11/2013 12:05:54 AM EDT
Well,

You can have lightweight and good quality, but not cheap!

I have a couple of marmot bags for I think -50 I've only used a few times...but, I wouldn't had it any other way, rather be to warm than cold.

I think they were like 6-700 each.

Now, they don't get used much...

Can't hike anymore.

Bret
Link Posted: 2/11/2013 3:49:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
Originally Posted By Jeep903:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
You won't get that peformance and versatility at anywhere near that price. Remember, you are getting two bags. You won't get two civi bags that will do anything close to the ecws for $200

The green bag is a good warmish weather bag, but the black one and the two together are really suck for backpacking

Go with a good down bag for the winter, but it will cost you

I used this to sleep in the blizzard this weekend, and have had it down lower before. By adjusting clothing it is versatile, but too warm in some winter weather. Your better bet would be to get bags that fit your area and your camping expectations, but you can not beat the ecws system for price.

This weekend-

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr45/_matt_arf/image_zpsf9944fe5.jpg







What, the price?
Big agnes msrp is kinda high, stuff always seems to be on sale
I think I paid $275 or so. Now is not a good time to get deals on winter gear tho...


Yesur. I wasn't expecting to see that when I clicked the link. I have the ECWS and its not that heavy anymore. Of course the bag weighs the same, but I lost weight. Probably from carrying the bag.
Link Posted: 2/11/2013 5:36:23 PM EDT
check egay for the Halo 3, Halo4 or Halo5 these are suppose to be the high speed low drag bags.....
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 7:16:15 AM EDT
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 10:01:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I've been stuck in Kuwait sleeping in a tent with a broken heater and my snugpak softee 3 has been keeping me warm with it being well down into the 40's. With a good ground pad, bivy cover, and a fleece liner I can imagine it being warm down into the 20's.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 1:42:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Saber7:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I've been stuck in Kuwait sleeping in a tent with a broken heater and my snugpak softee 3 has been keeping me warm with it being well down into the 40's. With a good ground pad, bivy cover, and a fleece liner I can imagine it being warm down into the 20's.


BTDT...I feel for ya brother! I think the MSS will do for the price, but the other considerations are ground insulation. The bivi cover will protect you from the wind, but you do have to watch for condensation.

ROCK6
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 4:35:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I have had the green and black bags with a good winter pad down to 20* and was comfortable, dressed only in long underwear. Are your bags in good condition? Good loft, etc?

While they are heavy, they certainly are warm

The military temp rating is while dressed in the proper ecws clothing and only for 4 hours of "sleep" I believe
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 5:47:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 5:49:51 AM EDT by PFC_Kramer]
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I have had the green and black bags with a good winter pad down to 20* and was comfortable, dressed only in long underwear. Are your bags in good condition? Good loft, etc?

While they are heavy, they certainly are warm

The military temp rating is while dressed in the proper ecws clothing and only for 4 hours of "sleep" I believe


They aren't warm. For a bag system that nearly weighs 10 lbs they should have a comfort rating well below -40, but that's not the case. They are dated, heavy as hell, cold for their weight, but cheap and durable. The -30 degree temp rating that you see mentioned is the survivability rating not comfort. You won't be comfortable at all if you try to use these bags in those temps. They will keep you alive but not all snugly comfortable at that temp.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 5:54:59 AM EDT
If its too cold for my Big Agnes 15 degree bag with a bivy and a liner, I'm not going there. With just the bag I was down to boxers and a headsock in the low teens.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 6:06:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I have had the green and black bags with a good winter pad down to 20* and was comfortable, dressed only in long underwear. Are your bags in good condition? Good loft, etc?

While they are heavy, they certainly are warm

The military temp rating is while dressed in the proper ecws clothing and only for 4 hours of "sleep" I believe


They aren't warm. For a bag system that nearly weighs 10 lbs they should have a comfort rating well below -40, but that's not the case. They are dated, heavy as hell, cold for their weight, but cheap and durable. The -30 degree temp rating that you see mentioned is the survivability rating not comfort. You won't be comfortable at all if you try to use these bags in those temps. They will keep you alive but not all snugly comfortable at that temp.


I'm wondering if the loft or insulation degrades over-time. I know down bags can degrade; my NorthFace Blue Kazoo is a 20 degree bag that I've had for over 20 years...it's still good, but not down to 20 degrees (or maybe it's me that's degraded and my pussy is just more sensative). I used the first generation MSS when I was out at NTC in the early 2000's...I slept on the hood of my HMMWV with temperatures dipping to 8 degrees (with windchill). I had all three parts and I could feel the wind pushing up agains the Goretex bivi bag. I was sleeping on a sleeping mat and was quite toasty. Not sure how well they hold up over time, but I would suspect rough use over time may be a factor...

ROCK6
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 11:37:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 11:38:11 AM EDT by PFC_Kramer]
I definitely tend to believe they lose their loft, all bags regardless of insulation type will eventually. With that said, whether it's due to age (these bags depending if you have a gen 1 set could be over 20 years old) combined with improper storage (who didn't keep there's compressed in its stuff sack ) play a huge roll in how well the insulation has held up which ultimately dictates how comfortable you might be out there.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 5:18:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 5:25:46 PM EDT by leeleatherwood]
Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I have had the green and black bags with a good winter pad down to 20* and was comfortable, dressed only in long underwear. Are your bags in good condition? Good loft, etc?

While they are heavy, they certainly are warm

The military temp rating is while dressed in the proper ecws clothing and only for 4 hours of "sleep" I believe


They aren't warm. For a bag system that nearly weighs 10 lbs they should have a comfort rating well below -40, but that's not the case. They are dated, heavy as hell, cold for their weight, but cheap and durable. The -30 degree temp rating that you see mentioned is the survivability rating not comfort. You won't be comfortable at all if you try to use these bags in those temps. They will keep you alive but not all snugly comfortable at that temp.



I have used the Army MSS down to 1F + wind chill (they say -35F when they factored in the wind chill) for an entire week.

With some waffle bottoms/tops and USGI socks I was fine. Feet were a little cold but I ended up stuffing the bottom with a fleece top and then it was perfect. The bivy basically nullified the wind and snow.

Its heavy, but it works. I would trust my life with it.

EDIT: The Army MSS is also very durable. My particular system was used basically every day for an entire year in Iraq, plus field exercises including a couple rotation of NTC. I would estimate a solid 1.5 years of use. (This is real use, not packed away in a rucksack most of the time) Many times I would bed down with my boots still on because we would only get a couple hours of sleep at times. The entire system held up very well with no rips or tears. Sometimes the zipper would get stuck but it was always fixable. I have also never heard anyone in my company having any major issues with their sleep systems either.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 10:35:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By leeleatherwood:
Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I have had the green and black bags with a good winter pad down to 20* and was comfortable, dressed only in long underwear. Are your bags in good condition? Good loft, etc?

While they are heavy, they certainly are warm

The military temp rating is while dressed in the proper ecws clothing and only for 4 hours of "sleep" I believe


They aren't warm. For a bag system that nearly weighs 10 lbs they should have a comfort rating well below -40, but that's not the case. They are dated, heavy as hell, cold for their weight, but cheap and durable. The -30 degree temp rating that you see mentioned is the survivability rating not comfort. You won't be comfortable at all if you try to use these bags in those temps. They will keep you alive but not all snugly comfortable at that temp.



I have used the Army MSS down to 1F + wind chill (they say -35F when they factored in the wind chill) for an entire week.

With some waffle bottoms/tops and USGI socks I was fine. Feet were a little cold but I ended up stuffing the bottom with a fleece top and then it was perfect. The bivy basically nullified the wind and snow.

Its heavy, but it works. I would trust my life with it.

EDIT: The Army MSS is also very durable. My particular system was used basically every day for an entire year in Iraq, plus field exercises including a couple rotation of NTC. I would estimate a solid 1.5 years of use. (This is real use, not packed away in a rucksack most of the time) Many times I would bed down with my boots still on because we would only get a couple hours of sleep at times. The entire system held up very well with no rips or tears. Sometimes the zipper would get stuck but it was always fixable. I have also never heard anyone in my company having any major issues with their sleep systems either.


my last 2 deployments I lived out of a rucksack for the majority and that sleep system would take up 90% of it,even with a huge ruck. A sleeping bag can be the best in the world but it does me no good if it's too big to take with me.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:41:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By daemon734:
Originally Posted By leeleatherwood:
Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I have had the green and black bags with a good winter pad down to 20* and was comfortable, dressed only in long underwear. Are your bags in good condition? Good loft, etc?

While they are heavy, they certainly are warm

The military temp rating is while dressed in the proper ecws clothing and only for 4 hours of "sleep" I believe


They aren't warm. For a bag system that nearly weighs 10 lbs they should have a comfort rating well below -40, but that's not the case. They are dated, heavy as hell, cold for their weight, but cheap and durable. The -30 degree temp rating that you see mentioned is the survivability rating not comfort. You won't be comfortable at all if you try to use these bags in those temps. They will keep you alive but not all snugly comfortable at that temp.



I have used the Army MSS down to 1F + wind chill (they say -35F when they factored in the wind chill) for an entire week.

With some waffle bottoms/tops and USGI socks I was fine. Feet were a little cold but I ended up stuffing the bottom with a fleece top and then it was perfect. The bivy basically nullified the wind and snow.

Its heavy, but it works. I would trust my life with it.

EDIT: The Army MSS is also very durable. My particular system was used basically every day for an entire year in Iraq, plus field exercises including a couple rotation of NTC. I would estimate a solid 1.5 years of use. (This is real use, not packed away in a rucksack most of the time) Many times I would bed down with my boots still on because we would only get a couple hours of sleep at times. The entire system held up very well with no rips or tears. Sometimes the zipper would get stuck but it was always fixable. I have also never heard anyone in my company having any major issues with their sleep systems either.


my last 2 deployments I lived out of a rucksack for the majority and that sleep system would take up 90% of it,even with a huge ruck. A sleeping bag can be the best in the world but it does me no good if it's too big to take with me.


I am not sure how that is possible.

The compressed sleep system easily fits in the bottom section of the MOLLE ruck (I had room for pillows and a towel too). The bottom section of the MOLLE ruck is smaller than the top section, therefor the max space it could take up is 50% (even assuming the top and bottom sections are the same size) Plus with the 2 sustainment pouches adding even more space, I would bet a properly compressed sleep system only takes up about 30% of a MOLLE Ruck.

If you were not using a MOLLE ruck then that's a different story.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 3:56:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2013 4:04:00 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 4:58:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf:
My uncompressed Full-Boat MSS occupies about 4/5 of a GI duffel bag. With the GI compression bag, it will fit in the MSS compartment of all the MOLLE GI-issued packs. Without the compression bag, forget about fitting it into the space allowed.

Now, I grant you that stuffing the whole enchilada into the compresion bag takes time, and that time might not be available sometimes.

As for types of fills, all fills will deteriorate over time, and become less efficient. the cheaper they are to start with, the faster they deteriorate. It used to be that high-quality down was reasonably available, and that is no longer so. I gave away an Eddie Bauer Kara Koram parka that I bought in 1970 to a friend. She was thrilled to wear it, as it was state of the art back then, and still better quality down than almost anyone but the most wealthy can buy nowadays. Prime Canadian Goose down, as opposed to disease-tainted Chinese mixed waterfowl feathers.

There's more to sleeping warm than just the bag. There's windproofing/shelter, dry insulating clothes worn within the bag, and most important, insulation below the bag. Screw up on any of these things, and you're chilly even with the best of sleeping bags. OTOH, if circumstances allow you to play your cards right, a 30 deg bag can be decent down to 0 deg. Depends on the operators skill, as with all things.


It's kind of surprising how much the insulation under you matters. I have had to use an Army foam pad on top of an Army air mattress in Northern Germany in February. Even that was barely enough.

Link Posted: 2/15/2013 5:49:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2013 5:55:05 PM EDT by daemon734]
Originally Posted By leeleatherwood:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
Originally Posted By leeleatherwood:
Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


I have had the green and black bags with a good winter pad down to 20* and was comfortable, dressed only in long underwear. Are your bags in good condition? Good loft, etc?

While they are heavy, they certainly are warm

The military temp rating is while dressed in the proper ecws clothing and only for 4 hours of "sleep" I believe


They aren't warm. For a bag system that nearly weighs 10 lbs they should have a comfort rating well below -40, but that's not the case. They are dated, heavy as hell, cold for their weight, but cheap and durable. The -30 degree temp rating that you see mentioned is the survivability rating not comfort. You won't be comfortable at all if you try to use these bags in those temps. They will keep you alive but not all snugly comfortable at that temp.



I have used the Army MSS down to 1F + wind chill (they say -35F when they factored in the wind chill) for an entire week.

With some waffle bottoms/tops and USGI socks I was fine. Feet were a little cold but I ended up stuffing the bottom with a fleece top and then it was perfect. The bivy basically nullified the wind and snow.

Its heavy, but it works. I would trust my life with it.

EDIT: The Army MSS is also very durable. My particular system was used basically every day for an entire year in Iraq, plus field exercises including a couple rotation of NTC. I would estimate a solid 1.5 years of use. (This is real use, not packed away in a rucksack most of the time) Many times I would bed down with my boots still on because we would only get a couple hours of sleep at times. The entire system held up very well with no rips or tears. Sometimes the zipper would get stuck but it was always fixable. I have also never heard anyone in my company having any major issues with their sleep systems either.


my last 2 deployments I lived out of a rucksack for the majority and that sleep system would take up 90% of it,even with a huge ruck. A sleeping bag can be the best in the world but it does me no good if it's too big to take with me.


I am not sure how that is possible.

The compressed sleep system easily fits in the bottom section of the MOLLE ruck (I had room for pillows and a towel too). The bottom section of the MOLLE ruck is smaller than the top section, therefor the max space it could take up is 50% (even assuming the top and bottom sections are the same size) Plus with the 2 sustainment pouches adding even more space, I would bet a properly compressed sleep system only takes up about 30% of a MOLLE Ruck.

If you were not using a MOLLE ruck then that's a different story.


I don't use a molle ruck. If you have ever had to walk 8-10 miles to your objective while wearing body armor you would know why. That said, even a ruck as large and open as the molle ruck the bag is still too big if you are carrying your gear for a month plus demo, metal detectors, radios, etc

The system is just too big to use if you need to bring it outside the wire on a regular basis.

In a survival context not compromising 1\2 to 2\3 of your ruck unnecessarily on a huge heavy sleep system.is definitely a good thing.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:51:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I just spent the last 5 days sleeping outside with an ECWS bag in the west Texas desert and I was freezing my ass off and it was only about 25 degrees out.

Add to that the fact that it's so large I can basically only fit that in my ruck and nothing else and im not happy at all. I'm getting a nice snugpack when I get back.


Get the Softie Elite 3. It has loops inside of it that you can use to tie your woobie into. Wear thin poly pro with this combo and an air pad beneath you and you'll be comfortable way into the teens. You can add layers to get you into the single digits. I have this bag and it has literally saved my life on a few occassions. Oh, and I never had a problem with the zipper or and of the other materials.The woobie and bag both fit into the supplied stuff sack and are about the size of a USMC MAC sack.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 4:14:35 AM EDT
Ive got the Improved USMC sleep system, its rated down to 5, weighs half of my ECWS, has a waterproof stuff sack from Sealine and compresses down to nothing. What I really like like about this setup aside from everything else I just mentioned is that the bivy has a built bug screen. Got mine on Ebay for 150.00 in excellent condition. Add a thermolite recator or reactor extreme and you can lower the rating another 15-25 and the reactors compress to the size of your fist.

http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php/65937-USMC-3-Season-Sleep-System
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