Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 4/15/2014 12:32:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2014 12:56:49 PM EDT by pdm]
I'm rethinking my carry rounds for hiking here in FL and in the southern Appalachians. My usual carry load in anything above a .380 is some type of HP, usually a Hydra-shok or Gold Dot. If hiking with family I usually hike with a G19 loaded with 18 rounds of Federal goodness or if hiking alone I occasionally a J frame air weight. I may throw in an extra stripper for the J frame as well.

The HPs are sufficient for the two legged threats but I'm starting to lean towards ball ammo to increase the odds of mitigating the 4 legged potential threats, particularly black bears. Odds are slim that I'll mix it up with one but I've certainly crossed paths with bears and cubs in the past.

Not sure that I want to try punching holes in a black bear with HPs if it came to it or a 9mm for that matter. For an upcoming walk in May in Va/Tenn area I'm thinking my G27 with the extended mag and loaded with straight 180 gr ball ammo.



Thoughts or comment?
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 12:43:05 PM EDT
I'm no hunter, but bears are soft skinned and I would think that for all but the great bruins, HPs would work the same way on the black bears, as they would on humans?

Still, you wouldn't want to shoot a bear with a .32acp HP, but if you're carrying a big bore weapon, HPs might be the way I'd want to go. Now, alligators might pose a different problem, but as I said, I'm no hunter.

Bigger diameter, more mass and expanding bullets might be the way I'd pack out and about.

Chris
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 12:49:19 PM EDT
I think you're on the right track path OP.

Go with the heaviest hardball you can get.
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 1:26:55 PM EDT
I don't feel undergunned with 9mm +P gold dots when I'm around black bear. They go about 200-250lbs for a full grown adult female. Around the farm they very skittish around humans, even with cubs.
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 2:15:26 PM EDT
You are more likely to have a confrontation with people than bears. In the woods I carry 9mm Speer LE Gold Dot 124gr. +P HP in my G19. For black bear I would worry more about how to act around bears and shot placement than bullet.
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 3:00:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By psdavi01:
You are more likely to have a confrontation with people than bears.
View Quote

Actually, you're more likely to have a confrontation with a fall or with hypothermia.

Neither hardball or HPs. Since nothing that will be attacking you is likely to stand still or run in a straight line, go with the heaviest hardcast rounds in a caliber you're comfortable shooting fast. If you have to conceal, remember you're unlikely to get it out in time anyway. Don't get too wrapped up worrying about bears; they're shy and unlikely to attack you unless you try to steal a cub. A gun is reactive, and thus the last resort. Be proactive and learn the ways to avoid violent encounters with the wildlife.
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 3:24:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2014 3:27:14 PM EDT by pdm]
Thanks guys. Appreciate the commentary but wasn't looking for advice on staying safe in the woods. I'm well aware of the degrees of likelihood of the various dangers to include injury.

Specifically I was asking opinions on ammo types that folks routinely carry in the woods. I'm not convinced that a HP, especially the newer rapid expansion designs, are effective against large mammals (Bears). I'm thinking .40 cal ball covers all the bases nicely.

Link Posted: 4/15/2014 4:36:57 PM EDT
I have taken down a grizzly bear with .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ ball ammo. I would have preferred Hard Cast Flat Nose because of the penetration the load offers...
If you already have access to a .40 I would recommend these 40 S&W 200 gr. Hard Cast Flat Nose
My family has a lot of experience hunting black bears in Ontario and shot placement is very important to bringing down a black bear.
Best Kill Shot for Bear.
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 3:00:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2014 3:05:09 AM EDT by pdm]
Thanks all.

After posting this I googled the topic and lo and behold other folks have had the same question

Tons of info out there. I just ordered some 200gr hard cast flat tips from Double Tap. I'll see how they run.

THR

Some snips:

The thing is, sometimes in town you can still encounter a fairly large black bear. Local logic has it that the best way to load for bear is JHP and heavy solids, alternating. The JHP is for pain and trauma, the heavy solid is in the hope you can actually penetrate enough to kill the bear.

Note that I'm not into mixed loads in general, although I try to stay open-minded and adaptable, depending on the circumstances. I think in this case it's more like splitting the difference between effectiveness against bears and humans (or other predators). The penetration of most JHPs against even relatively small bears is already rather questionable, and I think they'd be next to useless against large bears unless you hit their skulls just right or the bullets cause enough pain to deter them, which is hard to say, as I've never been a large bear that got shot with underpenetrating JHPs. Basically, only every other shot will have a chance of punching deep enough to cause some real damage, which is a major disadvantage, in my view (although I'm no expert on this topic).

It may be better overall to stick with only solid (i.e. non-hollow-point) bullets if bears are a real concern in town, as they are in some areas. I'm sure that hard-cast WFNGC load from DoubleTap would do a pretty good number on humans as well (they sure knock the stuffing out of teddy bears ;)). It's a compromise, to be sure, but i think that it may be a better one than using a mixed load.

In my area, mountain lions are more common, and while I seriously doubt that there would ever be an occasion for me to have to shoot one (although there have been two in-town sightings in recent years within a couple of miles of my place :eek: ), I'm sure that my 180 grain PDX1 JHPs could do the job. My 200 grain WFNGC rounds are for the black bears that I have yet to see even in the wild, but do live in the area and have occasionally been spotted in a nearby town. I never expect to have to shoot one, either, but I like to be prepared anyway.

1) What's the heaviest bullet you've seen in a .40 S&W and where can I get them.

200 grains is the heaviest weight that I've seen so far in this caliber.

Just to clarify, no one is trying to advocate the .40 as a bear gun. It is just something you should plan for if you live in his little town.

It's better than nothing, especially if you use the right loads. Even far more powerful handgun calibers can really only poke holes against large bears, in my opinion--they're more effective, but only by so much.

For me:
The ballistics of a .40 SW with a 135 grain bullet is about the same as a .357 mag.

That's more or less true in terms of external ballistics for typical factory loads, but .40 S&W has relatively poor sectional density at 135 grains. 200 grains for .40 S&W and 158 grains (or even 180 grains or more) for .357 Magnum are more to my liking for use against large creatures. They may still be less than optimum, sort of like using .22 LR against humans, but with the right loads they can penetrate and kill.

That said, there are issues. Both are not good calibers for a bear greater that 250 lbs (IMO, although there are several anecdotal stories where this was true). A bear's heart beats slower and a hit to the blood supply will not disable them as quickly as it would for a similarly sized human. Their central nervous system is protected by more bone mass..so it is harder to short their nervous system out. The bigger the bear, the bigger the problem.

Sure, but there isn't much that can stop the really big ones quickly. I've read stories about brown bears that died from gunshot wounds from service-caliber pistols before they could kill the shooters, but unfortunately the shooters got mauled some. :uhoh: I'm not convinced that even a .454 Casull packs enough of a punch to stop a large bear quickly, short of a direct CNS hit--it may not even do that with humans, for that matter. From my perspective, bigger is always better to some degree, but if a bullet can penetrate deeply enough, then it can kill.
Manco
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 6:14:36 AM EDT
Wild hogs are an issue in this area, I have only seen them when cruising around at night one night but they are all over the place from what people hunting them and dealing with them have said.

Gonna want some solid rounds and bit of oomph behind that round.

Link Posted: 4/16/2014 8:06:20 AM EDT
Not to hijack, but I'm looking for hard hitting .40sw for backcountry for a G22...
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 9:57:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2014 11:11:44 AM EDT by pdm]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Not to hijack, but I'm looking for hard hitting .40sw for backcountry for a G22...
View Quote


This is what I just bought for my G27. A G22 will only increase the wonderful goodness Doubletap

Edit:

Just got back from the range and did some testing with the G19 and the G27. Sort of interesting...

G19- 5 shot drill from 7 yards with 147gr rounds took about .8 sec total from high ready. .25 sec for presentation and 1st round and approx. .15 secs on the splits between rounds + or -. All rounds in 6" circle.

G27- Short mag- Same drill as above using 180 grain ball and the short mag took about 2.5 secs. 1st round at .3 secs and splits at about .45-.5 secs.

G27- Long mag- Same drill with the extended grip 13rd mag took about 1.5 secs for the 5 rounds in a 6" circle. .3 sec first round and .3 splits.


It looks like I could dump 10-12 rounds into something with the G19 using 147s in the same time as I could with G27 (short grip config) shooting 5 rounds of .40SW 180 grains. I have to assume that the 200 grain .40 cal rounds will require an even longer follow up time for subsequent shots.

Confirmed what I thought and I'll be carrying the G27 with the 13rd mag. It seems to be a nice balance in power, size (1/2" less than the G19), weight, round count (14) and controllability.


Link Posted: 4/16/2014 11:11:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2014 11:12:31 AM EDT by ChrisGarrett]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Not to hijack, but I'm looking for hard hitting .40sw for backcountry for a G22...
View Quote


I've had my G22 since '91 and I reload for it.

I would think that anything in the 180gr class would be sufficient in penetration and energy for some of the bigger animals that you might find. Whether you like Hornady XTP bullets, Speer Gold Dots, Winchester's Ranger SXT, or HRT from Federal, that's up to you.

My thought is absent some hard skeletal matter that needs punching through by a FMJ projectile, modern defensive hollow points should work the same way on some of these man sized critters, especially at typical pistol distances, as they do on humans.

Chris
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 11:20:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2014 4:02:06 PM EDT by pdm]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:


I've had my G22 since '91 and I reload for it.

I would think that anything in the 180gr class would be sufficient in penetration and energy for some of the bigger animals that you might find. Whether you like Hornady XTP bullets, Speer Gold Dots, Winchester's Ranger SXT, or HRT from Federal, that's up to you.

My thought is absent some hard skeletal matter that needs punching through by a FMJ projectile, modern defensive hollow points should work the same way on some of these man sized critters, especially at typical pistol distances, as they do on humans.

Chris
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Not to hijack, but I'm looking for hard hitting .40sw for backcountry for a G22...


I've had my G22 since '91 and I reload for it.

I would think that anything in the 180gr class would be sufficient in penetration and energy for some of the bigger animals that you might find. Whether you like Hornady XTP bullets, Speer Gold Dots, Winchester's Ranger SXT, or HRT from Federal, that's up to you.

My thought is absent some hard skeletal matter that needs punching through by a FMJ projectile, modern defensive hollow points should work the same way on some of these man sized critters, especially at typical pistol distances, as they do on humans.

Chris


I think that's the real issue. The degree of likelihood that you'll have to punch through bone is pretty high with bears and pigs. Read the post from psdavi01 and follow those links. Also, the links that I posted above. Pretty clear to me that HPs aren't best solution for this particular set of problem variables. If a pistol is the weapon of convenience then it looks like heavy flat-point hard cast is the way to go with as much sectional cross density as you're willing to carry.

More data from archives .45 vs 40 for hiking
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 12:45:44 PM EDT
127gr Ranger SXT +p+ 9mm in my Glock 17 or 140gr Barnes VOR-TX/158gr hard cast SWC .357 magnum (I carry both types, using the SWC for hunting along the way) in my Ruger Security Six.
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 3:19:11 PM EDT
I would stay away from all the HP designs out there, and second the ball or hardcast suggestions.

(biting my tongue on use of a pistol when camping/hiking).

Reasoning? Ammo is designed to meet the FBI specs, ie, penetrate approx 12 inches. Therefore, if your approaching aggressive animal has greater distance to penetrate than that, you're SOL
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 7:37:45 PM EDT
Interesting data. I really have nothing to contribute other than to say the last 2 bears I killed was with a .22 magnum.

Both head shots at less than 5 yards, both one shot kills.

I'll see if I can find some pics....
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 2:09:18 PM EDT
I carry a Colt 1911 when I hike.
I usually stagger one ball then one Hydra-shok.

YMMV
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 6:10:19 PM EDT
My solution to your question was a G20

180hp for the first three followed by 200 solids
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 6:20:26 PM EDT
I too would recommend the G20 if you are really concerned about bears. I bought mine just for that reason, when I go hiking out west. It is really fun to shoot and I also plan on whitetail hunting with it, but if I had it to do over, I'd probably just get a G22 and load it up with some Underwood 180gr solids and be content. Regardless, whatever pistol and round you carry is better than nothing.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 9:42:42 PM EDT
I carry 158 SWCs that cook out of a 6" GP100 for hiking/woods stuff. A human is likely to duck/run/give up after being hit with one or two of those I'd warrant, a bear would probably take all 6. I have three belt pouches with speed loaders. An additional with the 158s and then two with 158 JSPs that'll do slightly better on a person, slightly worse on a bear, but would be great for taking a deer.

Link Posted: 4/23/2014 1:29:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MK4Mod0:
I carry a Colt 1911 when I hike.
I usually stagger one ball then one Hydra-shok.

YMMV
View Quote


THIS! In GD tradition, my answer to this question is: BOTH!

I carry my magazines alternating HP and hardcast. You're not trying for a one-shot stop, are you? If you are in the unfortunate situation of having to shoot something, you might probably shoot more than once. In which case, at least one of those rounds is going to be the "right" choice for the situation.

Seems to be conventional wisdom.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 2:20:31 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveSpud:


THIS! In GD tradition, my answer to this question is: BOTH!

I carry my magazines alternating HP and hardcast. You're not trying for a one-shot stop, are you? If you are in the unfortunate situation of having to shoot something, you might probably shoot more than once. In which case, at least one of those rounds is going to be the "right" choice for the situation.

Seems to be conventional wisdom.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveSpud:
Originally Posted By MK4Mod0:
I carry a Colt 1911 when I hike.
I usually stagger one ball then one Hydra-shok.

YMMV


THIS! In GD tradition, my answer to this question is: BOTH!

I carry my magazines alternating HP and hardcast. You're not trying for a one-shot stop, are you? If you are in the unfortunate situation of having to shoot something, you might probably shoot more than once. In which case, at least one of those rounds is going to be the "right" choice for the situation.

Seems to be conventional wisdom.


I've never been a fan of mixing ammo in the same mag but to each his own. My thoughts are I want consistent recoil so if I run the gun fast my recovery is also consistent. I'm just a real big fan of shot placement...I'm not being a smart ass. I've had long conversations with a few guys that I trust and we've all agreed, depending on your training level, that ball ammo is generally preferred in the larger calibers.

The 200gr Hard Cast that I ordered arrived the other day but I haven''t had a chance to run them through the pistol yet. I did cycle a few and they seemed to feed just fine. I am interested to see what the recoil is like in the G27 short mag configuration...it's going to be snappy and I think I'll use the 11 rd mags or the 13s though I want to keep the pistol small enough to conceal. We'll see.

Top Top