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Posted: 10/21/2013 5:51:36 AM EST
Good morning guys, I have a general firearms/survival question. My wife and I have gotten the preparedness bug (well I’ve had it, I was raised in a prep house) and we have amassed a considerable amount of assets to include a full plan 3mo, 6mo, 1 year, and out plans that include everything from water to seeds to a couple head of cattle. This is by no means everything we have and we do have it in two locations. We have acquired all of this debt free never putting anything on a credit card we didn’t pay off that month.

A major gap in our prepping has been on the firearms side. We each have our pistols and I have a 7mm-08 hunting rifle but that’s it. I have a duty rifle but I check it out and turn it in to the armorer at the beginning and end of every shift. I’ve been a bit of a gun nut my whole life but went through a divorce several years ago then a long stent of unemployment and I ended up selling all my firearms. My wife is now shooting, in fact she begged me to take her shooting yesterday morning. We both have recognized the need for a good fighting rifle and we’ve decided to purchase two quality AR-15s, two quality AK-47s, kit them out and amass some ammo.

My wife suggested last night that we get a credit card and “pick them up while we still can”. Some of this stuff is starting to come back on the shelves and the prices aren’t insane (well they are insane but significantly less insane than a year ago) and as all of you know that could change tomorrow, so we are both very nervous about availability down the road. I’m struggling because I am really anti-debt but I know we need the rifles. I also know we will have the funds to make the purchases around April/May 2014, so the card would be paid by then, or we could just roll the dice and hope it’s all available in the spring/summer. My wife suggested that I ask the group here and see what y’all think.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 6:01:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 6:54:50 AM EST by PA22-400]
IN

brb

DO NOT GO INTO DEBT TO BUY GUNS

Originally Posted By Joeshwa24:
Good morning guys, I have a general firearms/survival question.
View Quote

Welcome to the SF
We have answers....

My wife and I have gotten the preparedness bug (well I’ve had it, I was raised in a prep house) and we have amassed a considerable amount of assets to include a full plan 3mo, 6mo, 1 year, and out plans that include everything from water to seeds to a couple head of cattle. This is by no means everything we have and we do have it in two locations. We have acquired all of this debt free never putting anything on a credit card we didn’t pay off that month.

A major gap in our prepping has been on the firearms side. We each have our pistols and I have a 7mm-08 hunting rifle but that’s it.
View Quote

Very good for staying out of debt.
I do not see a problem with your firearms.

I have a duty rifle but I check it out and turn it in to the armorer at the beginning and end of every shift. I’ve been a bit of a gun nut my whole life but went through a divorce several years ago then a long stent of unemployment and I ended up selling all my firearms. My wife is now shooting, in fact she begged me to take her shooting yesterday morning. We both have recognized the need for a good fighting rifle and we’ve decided to purchase two quality AR-15s, two quality AK-47s, kit them out and amass some ammo.

My wife suggested last night that we get a credit card and “pick them up while we still can”.
View Quote

So you are LEO? If so then you will be expected to go to work if there is an emergency...So I bet you will get your duty rifle to use for any emergency.
DO NOT GO INTO DEBT TO BUY FIREARMS
Yes I shouted.
Yes I will stick to my story.

Some of this stuff is starting to come back on the shelves and the prices aren’t insane (well they are insane but significantly less insane than a year ago) and as all of you know that could change tomorrow, so we are both very nervous about availability down the road. I’m struggling because I am really anti-debt but I know we need the rifles. I also know we will have the funds to make the purchases around April/May 2014, so the card would be paid by then, or we could just roll the dice and hope it’s all available in the spring/summer. My wife suggested that I ask the group here and see what y’all think.
View Quote

Thanks for respecting us Mrs. Joeshwa24.
DO NOT GO INTO DEBT TO BUY GUNS

You two need a gun plan:
Guns are kinda like shoes or underwear because you gotta have a gun that fits you.

2 ARs and 2 AKs is a waste of money IMO
Pick the type that is most comfortable for you and get 4 of that type, or 3 and a basket of spare parts

More random thoughts of mine about survival guns
>ARs are easier to mount optics onto. You get a day older each day, and you may wake up one day and realize that glass is nice
>The AK and the 30-30 have the same horsepower, so if a 30-30 will not get the job done then an AK won't either. Also anything an AK can get done in 6 shots or less the 30-30 can do cheaper.
>In before someone tells you to sell the 7mm08 and get a cheap Savage 308 bolt gun.....Imma at that
>I know a guy that posted a rant about survival guns...I might find a copy and repost it.

And
DO NOT GO INTO DEBT TO BUY GUNS

ETA2 found one version of the rant....Enjoy...And Don't go into debt for guns.


Posted by PA22-400 a while back:

This is a survival forum, so you must understand that there are some answers that you get that have been standard for decades because some famous survivalist wrote it down in a famous survivalist book.
You must have that following weapons:
1) An AR or AK for each member of the household capable of shooting (individuals over about 6 years of age). A 30-30 will not do.
2) A shotgun to go with each rifle in 1. It does not matter if you have no use for a shotgun.
3) a handgun to go with each rifle in 1
4) ammo stocked for 1, 2 , and 3.
5) A long range rifle in 308. SPR can't count. 30-06, 300mag, 338mag, 270, etc. just will not do, and it doesn't matter that the terrain will not allow a clear 250 yard shot.
6) SKS handout guns. Nope can't count a 30-30 here either. It doesn't matter if you have nobody that you would trust to hand out to.
7) Ammo stocked for 5 and 6.

So now that you know the rules you may not sell your 308, you should keep your AK, you need a shotgun, and your ammo stocks have been measured and found lacking.
View Quote






Link Posted: 10/21/2013 6:23:40 AM EST
Personal suggestion - just go with the AR/M4 style rifle and don't bother with the AK's. You'll save money in the long run on keeping with one ammunition, one magazine type, one set of kit instead of buying seperate things. Don't fall for the whole, buy this caliber because if you run out of that caliber you can switch. Seriously, if TSHTF and you need your carbine you will be standing in front of the safe going... well, should I take the AK or AR. I have one of each and every month I go to our carbine club shoots I spend a good half hour trying to decide if I take the AK or AR.

I wouldn't suggest getting a credit card for prep use to pay it off in installments if you don't have the money for it. It has a way of growing quickly and before you know it, it's maxed out and struggling to pay it off.
If your funds are very low build your own rifles to your own liking,
5.56 is still the standard for US military and US Police dept,
AR/M4 weighs less than the AK,
Recoil is lighter than AK,
AR/M4 is more accurate,
erogromics make the AR easier to shoot/carry
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 6:24:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 6:28:44 AM EST by whollyshite]
1st, let me start by saying that I am a "lurker" in the SF but not a normal contributor, so the opinions you get may be very different from mine. This is only my .02.

On the national front, it does not look like gun control will pass any time in the immediate future under the immediate conditions, barring a major event that changes the national mood. That type of event could happen, but it could happen at any time. My point is that I do not know if I would alter my course to buy a firearm on the thought process that you may not be able to get one soon. I definitely wouldn't decide to go throw $3-5k worth of guns and gear on a credit card because I was worried. I will say that 2014 could change everything, so I would have it in my short term plans (< 1.5 years) as a must.

I'm showing that, per your flag, you live in NM. NM is, normally, a pro-gun environment, but is also a blue state. Basically, from my previous statement, you'll have to figure out if your state government is looking to pass gun control.

Per your OP, I'm going to assume that you're reasonably good with your finances, so you should be able to get 3k together for the firearms in a matter of months. This is another reason I wouldn't think it would be good financial advice to go throw it on a card, but it would be a top priority.

What I would do if I were you is start with the ARs and slowly build up, while not breaking the bank. I would start with ARs because, inside the U.S., they're the most popular battle rifle, so parts and ammo should be obtainable and there's plenty of good choices out there. Make sure ammo and mags are on the short list.

The AKs would be moved to the 2nd tier item because, while they are popular, I think the .223/5.56 round is more common than the 7.62x39. If we were talking about other areas of the world, such as Africa, ME, or former Warsaw Pact areas, I would advise you to go with the AK. In CONUS, I think you're best served with the AR. Plus, EOs and UN treaties could end up hurting the availability of parts and ammo on AKs. It's possible, but I don't think it's impacting them yet.

Buy the ARs, buy ammo and mags, and then work on the AKs later.

Once again, just my .02.

Edit for typos and another suggestion: If you're really worried about getting the battle rifles, get the ARs (plus mags, ammo, and gear) only and get them paid off before going to the AKs.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 6:27:16 AM EST
I would look to the availability of ammunition ... ie. 5.56 vs 7.62x39 ... with the signing of the UN treaty on the international spread of weapons, I would think that it is just a matter of time until the importation of less expensive foreign (Russian) military ammunition is targeted... I shoot 3 gun, and the M4 style platform suits my needs better than the AK...I don't have a need for another caliber .... YMMV
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 6:43:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 7:12:13 AM EST by SharnPenndroen]
Originally Posted By Joeshwa24:
Good morning guys, I have a general firearms/survival question. My wife and I have gotten the preparedness bug (well I’ve had it, I was raised in a prep house) and we have amassed a considerable amount of assets to include a full plan 3mo, 6mo, 1 year, and out plans that include everything from water to seeds to a couple head of cattle. This is by no means everything we have and we do have it in two locations. We have acquired all of this debt free never putting anything on a credit card we didn’t pay off that month.

A major gap in our prepping has been on the firearms side. We each have our pistols and I have a 7mm-08 hunting rifle but that’s it. I have a duty rifle but I check it out and turn it in to the armorer at the beginning and end of every shift. I’ve been a bit of a gun nut my whole life but went through a divorce several years ago then a long stent of unemployment and I ended up selling all my firearms. My wife is now shooting, in fact she begged me to take her shooting yesterday morning. We both have recognized the need for a good fighting rifle and we’ve decided to purchase two quality AR-15s, two quality AK-47s, kit them out and amass some ammo.

My wife suggested last night that we get a credit card and “pick them up while we still can”. Some of this stuff is starting to come back on the shelves and the prices aren’t insane (well they are insane but significantly less insane than a year ago) and as all of you know that could change tomorrow, so we are both very nervous about availability down the road. I’m struggling because I am really anti-debt but I know we need the rifles. I also know we will have the funds to make the purchases around April/May 2014, so the card would be paid by then, or we could just roll the dice and hope it’s all available in the spring/summer. My wife suggested that I ask the group here and see what y’all think.
View Quote


Well first of all, I want to congratulate you on your efforts thus far. A lot of people are opposite you, i.e. have guns, but only about a month of food and a water filter. So good for you.

I would not recommend going into debt for this. You have been smart up to now, continue to do so.

I am an AR15 guy, but I also have AK-47s. Due to ammo costs, I have more 7.62x39 ammo than anything else. It is cheaper than pistol ammo. Since you are not invested in either platform right now, my recommendation would be to get two AK47s (one for you and the wife unit). Get 20-40 magazines. Buy enough ammo that your comfortable with it. and buy some to train with. Once you feel good and set on that front, then if you still wanted to, get some AR15s, magazines, and ammo for them too.



She may be ugly but she is set up like I like her.

Edit: Also forgot to mention, that your other limited resource other than money is time. Training on these weapon systems takes time. I shoot both AR15s and AKs, I like shooting a lot, so it doesn't bother me that I have to dedicate time to running both of them, and the major differences between the two can be practiced without expending a lot of ammo. Reloads, and safety on/off is where you will see a lot of difference.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:00:39 AM EST
good suggestions above. i'd follow the thought process of 1 type of rifle, 1 type of ammo.

you can buy a basic AR for 700-800 bucks, spend the rest on training and ammo. knowing how to use your rifle is more important than anything, the more of the basics you know the more advanced you are. all of the "cool guy" stuff hanging off of rifles just makes the basics a bit easier. you can easily spend more money on accessories than you can on the rifle, but you wont know what you need until you use it and use it a lot. learn your irons first and spend most of your "gun budget" on training, training, training.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:05:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 7:15:44 AM EST by urbanredneck]
Palmetto State Armory has a lot of specials.

Just got an ad for blem lowers again. They run $59.99 + $7 shipping. Pick up 2 and have them shipped to your FFL. If they are out, then check AIM Surplus for their current specials, they are not much more for their various lowers.

If you have the $ then order one or two of the PSA kits of your choosing, some of their complete kits run $400...

Regardless if you get the kits now, the lowers are plenty cheap. It's a good time to pick up some extras to set aside.

As far as your question about caliber, you are in the US, 556 is the way to go if you are only going to have 1 gun. Plus you may have access to mags and accessories in the future through work.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:18:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By Joeshwa24:
Good morning guys, I have a general firearms/survival question. My wife and I have gotten the preparedness bug (well I’ve had it, I was raised in a prep house) and we have amassed a considerable amount of assets to include a full plan 3mo, 6mo, 1 year, and out plans that include everything from water to seeds to a couple head of cattle. This is by no means everything we have and we do have it in two locations. We have acquired all of this debt free never putting anything on a credit card we didn’t pay off that month.

A major gap in our prepping has been on the firearms side. We each have our pistols and I have a 7mm-08 hunting rifle but that’s it. I have a duty rifle but I check it out and turn it in to the armorer at the beginning and end of every shift. I’ve been a bit of a gun nut my whole life but went through a divorce several years ago then a long stent of unemployment and I ended up selling all my firearms. My wife is now shooting, in fact she begged me to take her shooting yesterday morning. We both have recognized the need for a good fighting rifle and we’ve decided to purchase two quality AR-15s, two quality AK-47s, kit them out and amass some ammo.

My wife suggested last night that we get a credit card and “pick them up while we still can”. Some of this stuff is starting to come back on the shelves and the prices aren’t insane (well they are insane but significantly less insane than a year ago) and as all of you know that could change tomorrow, so we are both very nervous about availability down the road. I’m struggling because I am really anti-debt but I know we need the rifles. I also know we will have the funds to make the purchases around April/May 2014, so the card would be paid by then, or we could just roll the dice and hope it’s all available in the spring/summer. My wife suggested that I ask the group here and see what y’all think.
View Quote


It sounds like you have the discipline to handle your credit situations, and I to do not have a cc balance either.
I think you answered your own question as highlighted above.
Assuming your duty weapon is an AR I would first buy some ammo and a single AR with spare mags 6 or so 30 rnd
on credit simply because the dollar is in more trouble than people care to admit.
You now have peace of mind that you need and not a very large amount of cc debt to lose sleep over, I would lose
more sleep over not having the fire power.
I would also get a $200. 12 gauge and some slug and buck for the short range and on the road scene

Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:29:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 7:33:44 AM EST by Emt1581]
I agree with NOT going into debt to buy the guns. Honestly, there's no need to at this point. You are on the opposite side of a panic and the market is flooded with guns. So the "buy them while we still can" notion sort of applies but no more than yesterday or tomorrow. Buy them as your surplus of funds allows for.

Personally I'll suggest the M4/AR-15 platform because you can start with two stripped lowers and add $100 or so to the pile each month and have a pair of nice AR's in 6-12 months depending on how fancy you want them.

I used to be a die hard AK fan and despised the AR...really out of ignorance. Now I have a bunch of each and I feel differently. For me, the AK's are sort of like the wheel guns in my collection. Great guns!...But can't really hold a candle to the semi-auto's/AR's in the weight, recoil, ease of use dept. Plus there's things like after market, part swapping/upgrading, etc. that can be either only slightly more difficult or significantly more difficult on an AK (with rivets) vs. and AR (with pins)...again, a rare issue though.

EDIT: Forgot to add that I used to have an AK as my bedside gun, GHB gun (Draco), and focused on them more for project guns...especially converting Saiga's which can be fun. EVERY AK I own is now on "the wall", and has been relieved by an AR or 5.56 varriant...MSAR at the bedside (for hallway/stairs work), SU-16C in the GHB, and AR's are now my project guns.

Now if money is tight and you need a long gun for HD TODAY, go to wal-mart with $200 and buy a pump 12ga.

If not, save up or spend little by little and build yourself a pair of AR's.

Good luck!

-Emt1581
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:29:18 AM EST
I'll buck the trend by saying "get the rifles now." If you can be responsible, as you've established you can, debt can be a blessing and not a curse if used correctly. Today's dollar is tomorrow's 99 cents, and that inflationary trend isn't about to end anytime soon, so on a 0% card that you know that you'll pay off before you start paying the interest, you're coming out ahead. Again, it's about discipline, and knowing yourself enough to know that you'll do what you need to do, and only buy exactly what you said you'd buy, etc. Furthermore, if you experience a major SHTF that those rifles would be an effective tool in dealing with before you've saved up enough wouldn't it have been a better idea to have them and only have to worry about sending a check each month?

As far as selection, I'd duplicate whatever rifle you have as a duty rifle(ar15?), and forget about the other type(ak?).
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:33:55 AM EST
Thank you for the replies gentlemen! As my wife and I have been reading this we have made the decision to hold off on the AK’s until a later date.

We are very financially stable and both make a very good income and the only debt we have is the House and Her Truck (2012 Dodge 2500 Cummins) that we only owe 15,000.00 on. My truck and my Bike are paid off.

I will be called on to respond and be issued my Rifle if the SHTF however I will not take it home. I am extremely opposed to the idea of taking anything that isn’t mine. If TSHTF theft or “permanently borrowing” things may be the order of the day but it won’t be the order of MY day. I believe my honor is all I have so I guard it ferociously. I will also be away from my wife so she will definitely need something.

As far as training is concerned, there is no question in my mind on this. WE WILL TRAIN HARD WITH OUR WEAPONS. It’s actually our favorite thing to do together.

I don’t see the debt as a crisis issue as we have the finances to pay it off rapidly, and we may be able to get a new card through our bank that will be interest free for a year. The danger of maxing it out is certainly something that worries me, however, we both have immense amounts of self-control, if not we wouldn’t be almost completely debt free now.

Oh and I’m never selling my 7mm-08, it’s an heirloom piece that my grandfather put together for me in the 90’s and he is gone now so it will be in the family safe for as long as I am alive at least.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:34:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 2:40:36 PM EST by yankee43]
I am a AK guy, but if I were you I'd get AR's.

The reason I say this is because parts and accessories as EVERYWHERE.
While AK accessories are "almost" everywhere, AK shooters are more vulnerable to "panics" than AR shooters because parts, magazines and ammo generally comes from over-seas.

I'm particularly fond of .223 caliber AK's, but reliable magazines are very hard to come by if you've got Chinese or Romanian guns. Spare parts in this caliber are even harder to find.
Yeah, the 7.62x39 5.45 caliber stuff is very prevalent, but .223 is even more so, and varied- especially if you get into reloading your own. Reloading components are easier to find and brass can be "scrounged" at the range.

You don't have to have rifles in both platforms.
Remember, you're talking preparedness. Save the money you might spend on AK's and AK ammo, parts, mags, accessories and stock up elsewhere.

I'd recommend keeping the AR's short, light and manageable. Put a decent light on them (I use Streamlight TLR-1's) and maybe tritium sights. Optics are a matter of preference. (I prefer none).


Also, don't poo-poo your 7mm-08. It's an excellent cartridge.
You don't need a 15lb. heavy-barelled, .308/.300 Win. Mag./.338 Lapua, etc. with a "ginormous" optic.
A decent (meaning practical, not necessarily expensive) hunting rifle chambered in just about any caliber with a practical scope (4x,6x,3x9) is fine. Iron sights with quick detachable mounts/rings for a scope is a good idea too.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:34:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tonto_Ohio:
Personal suggestion - just go with the AR/M4 style rifle and don't bother with the AK's. You'll save money in the long run on keeping with one ammunition, one magazine type, one set of kit instead of buying seperate things. Don't fall for the whole, buy this caliber because if you run out of that caliber you can switch. Seriously, if TSHTF and you need your carbine you will be standing in front of the safe going... well, should I take the AK or AR. I have one of each and every month I go to our carbine club shoots I spend a good half hour trying to decide if I take the AK or AR.

I wouldn't suggest getting a credit card for prep use to pay it off in installments if you don't have the money for it. It has a way of growing quickly and before you know it, it's maxed out and struggling to pay it off.
If your funds are very low build your own rifles to your own liking,
5.56 is still the standard for US military and US Police dept,
AR/M4 weighs less than the AK,
Recoil is lighter than AK,
AR/M4 is more accurate,
erogromics make the AR easier to shoot/carry
View Quote


This.

I would get 2 AR's, set them up to your liking and then consider a 3rd as a back-up but I would completely forego the AK.

Reasons for this are, you have an AR through work so you are at least somewhat familiar with the platform, if TFHTF and you pull a rifle out of the safe for use it's better to be what you are most familiar with. No reaching for an AR mag release while holding an AK, or anything like that. Yes, training will overcome this but why not train with 1 rifle and not 2 so you are more proficient with it?

The AR has less recoil, is more ergonomic, more accurate, more "mainstream" for spare parts and accessories, and easier to mount optics to (red dot sight, etc). Spend the money to stock up on 1 caliber instead of what you would've spent on 2, you're more likely to be killed before you run out of ammo and I never really bought into that "I'll pick up ammo along the way, it's what .mil/leo use". Yes, it's what they use, but you aren't getting any of it. If a soldier or someone is down he's not alone, his guys are taking him back and if they're not they're not leaving him with any ammo and there is no way in hell the .mil is going to be handing out ammo to civilians at some checkpoint or something.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:43:17 AM EST
Around here AR's are everywhere and shops are desperate to sell. Buying 2 at once I would want a even better deal. It is possible you could get a better deal now than waiting till later even if nothing happens.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:54:45 AM EST
If your duty rifle is an AR stick with that platform. You are already trained on it and if your department provides anything resembling quality training you have built muscle memory with it. Stick with what you know.

On the flip side, if your department doesn't offer good training and you get the AK and train on your own you will develop muscle memory for that rifle and may screw up when it counts using your duty rifle at work. You are much more likely to have to shoot someone at work so your training should be geared toward what you carry there.

There are other reasons I prefer ARs (several have already been mentioned) but that one is the biggest for your situation.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 8:05:20 AM EST
I picked up a Romanian AK in .223 to streamline my ammo supply. The .223 rounds fit nicely in the 7.62x39 AK mags that are still flooded on the market. The AK was cheap compared to the AR, and it is the "suppressive fire" rifle for my son to use in bad situations. Then start reloading!
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 8:13:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By minnhawk:
I picked up a Romanian AK in .223 to streamline my ammo supply. The .223 rounds fit nicely in the 7.62x39 AK mags that are still flooded on the market. The AK was cheap compared to the AR, and it is the "suppressive fire" rifle for my son to use in bad situations. Then start reloading!
View Quote


Not to hi-jack but I've always found .223 AK's to be an interesting animal.

Helps to use ammo on hand if you've stocked up on .223 for AR's.

However, what's the recoil like compared to a x39? Seems like, other than streamlining ammo, you've be getting all the downsides of the AK and none of the advantages of the AR. But again, I have absolutely ZERO experience with a .223 AK.

Thanks!

-Emt1581
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 8:14:14 AM EST
Skip the ak variants. Spend the money on ar carbines and something that shoots .22lr.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 8:42:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 8:43:21 AM EST by ariesfromhell]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tight-group:


It sounds like you have the discipline to handle your credit situations, and I to do not have a cc balance either.
I think you answered your own question as highlighted above.
Assuming your duty weapon is an AR I would first buy some ammo and a single AR with spare mags 6 or so 30 rnd
on credit simply because the dollar is in more trouble than people care to admit.
You now have peace of mind that you need and not a very large amount of cc debt to lose sleep over, I would lose
more sleep over not having the fire power.
I would also get a $200. 12 gauge and some slug and buck for the short range and on the road scene

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tight-group:
Originally Posted By Joeshwa24:
Good morning guys, I have a general firearms/survival question. My wife and I have gotten the preparedness bug (well I’ve had it, I was raised in a prep house) and we have amassed a considerable amount of assets to include a full plan 3mo, 6mo, 1 year, and out plans that include everything from water to seeds to a couple head of cattle. This is by no means everything we have and we do have it in two locations. We have acquired all of this debt free never putting anything on a credit card we didn’t pay off that month.

A major gap in our prepping has been on the firearms side. We each have our pistols and I have a 7mm-08 hunting rifle but that’s it. I have a duty rifle but I check it out and turn it in to the armorer at the beginning and end of every shift. I’ve been a bit of a gun nut my whole life but went through a divorce several years ago then a long stent of unemployment and I ended up selling all my firearms. My wife is now shooting, in fact she begged me to take her shooting yesterday morning. We both have recognized the need for a good fighting rifle and we’ve decided to purchase two quality AR-15s, two quality AK-47s, kit them out and amass some ammo.

My wife suggested last night that we get a credit card and “pick them up while we still can”. Some of this stuff is starting to come back on the shelves and the prices aren’t insane (well they are insane but significantly less insane than a year ago) and as all of you know that could change tomorrow, so we are both very nervous about availability down the road. I’m struggling because I am really anti-debt but I know we need the rifles. I also know we will have the funds to make the purchases around April/May 2014, so the card would be paid by then, or we could just roll the dice and hope it’s all available in the spring/summer. My wife suggested that I ask the group here and see what y’all think.


It sounds like you have the discipline to handle your credit situations, and I to do not have a cc balance either.
I think you answered your own question as highlighted above.
Assuming your duty weapon is an AR I would first buy some ammo and a single AR with spare mags 6 or so 30 rnd
on credit simply because the dollar is in more trouble than people care to admit.
You now have peace of mind that you need and not a very large amount of cc debt to lose sleep over, I would lose
more sleep over not having the fire power.
I would also get a $200. 12 gauge and some slug and buck for the short range and on the road scene


THIS!!! imho. a bird in the hand...
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 10:08:32 AM EST
When a "quality" AK was available for $350 then it was an easy decision but now that they are $500+ an AR15 wins in my book. I saw complete PSA AR15's locally for $749+tax and they have sat on the shelf for 3-4 months now. That is CHEAP for a good rifle.

I personally would not choose a 7mm-08 as my only bolt action rifle but it will work and you may actually be able to find ammo since not many others will be using it.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 10:32:32 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Joeshwa24:
Thank you for the replies gentlemen!

I will be called on to respond and be issued my Rifle if the SHTF however I will not take it home. I am extremely opposed to the idea of taking anything that isn’t mine. If TSHTF theft or “permanently borrowing” things may be the order of the day but it won’t be the order of MY day. I believe my honor is all I have so I guard it ferociously.
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Originally Posted By Joeshwa24:
Thank you for the replies gentlemen!

I will be called on to respond and be issued my Rifle if the SHTF however I will not take it home. I am extremely opposed to the idea of taking anything that isn’t mine. If TSHTF theft or “permanently borrowing” things may be the order of the day but it won’t be the order of MY day. I believe my honor is all I have so I guard it ferociously.

I may have been unclear. If your job issues you a rifle and expects you to deal with an emergency, then you will have your duty rifle to do your duty. Once your job is done you then the emergency will be over and you will be able to leave the duty rifle at the office. Just like how firemen leave the fire hoses at the station.

I will also be away from my wife so she will definitely need something.

There are many many ways to solve this. Many many ways to do it on the budget down-low too.
Garage sale 30-30 and add a good red dot sight (Eotech, Trijicon, etc). You could probably hold this to under $700, the recycle the sight when you trade the rifle up.
Some AR M4 clone from WalMart. Yea a bit over $700 and no sight
Build your own AR. You are run a very real risk of project cost escalation, but you can assemble an AR that fits HER: Purple furniture...no problem. Ultralight barrel and ultralight carbon fiber fore end...no problem. Custom fitted length of pull...no problem. And on and on.


Oh and I’m never selling my 7mm-08, it’s an heirloom piece that my grandfather put together for me in the 90’s and he is gone now so it will be in the family safe for as long as I am alive at least.

Good
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 10:36:02 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jlficken:
Snip
I personally would not choose a 7mm-08 as my only bolt action rifle but it will work and you may actually be able to find ammo since not many others will be using it.
View Quote




I knew a post like this was gonna happen



Link Posted: 10/21/2013 10:40:11 AM EST
Lots of good information already in this thread, but I would agree with the go ahead and get it now crowd.

My only addition to the information here would be to get a mid length gas system. They are overall just a better rifles (IMO)However a carbine length system is nothing to sneeze at. In fact if you bought from the too links below you would have a great rifle.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-blemished-bullet-pictogram-lower.html
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/16-m4a1-chrome-lined-mp-tested-rifle-kit.html

You want to spend a bit more money, and want to mount optics, then get something like this

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/psa-16-chf-m4a1-ss12g2-premium-rifle-kit.html

Or you can get a kit from another dealer, PSA usually just has great deals and good quality. These are just some options I wanted to point out.

BCM makes some great uppers too.

If you can, and you have the ability, I would always "roll your own".

As for the AK, get a Saiga and a bunch of 7.62X39 after you get a good shotgun, and enough .22 ammo to collapse a donkey.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 10:46:34 AM EST
You'd be better served with one AR and one 12ga.

Ultra versatile for every situation. You both can't carry several rifles.


And for the 12ga. One 18" smooth bore and an extra 28" vent rib with chokes for any thing with wings to 4 feet.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 11:06:58 AM EST
Another vote for a couple of ARs. As others have said you can get some good deals on blemished lowers. Search online for complete parts kits (vendor links above are a good place to start.) You could most likely put together 1 rifle (no fancy accessories) for about $600. I would also vote against going into debt to buy them....unless you can follow thru on a plan to pay it off in a few months. I am assuming as a LEO they trained you on your duty rifle (field stripping, cleaning/maintenace, etc...) and with your first rifle you could show your wife the basics. Get mags, ammo, and load bearing gear. When you have one set up get the next together.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 12:13:01 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RANGER_556:
You'd be better served with one AR and one 12ga.

Ultra versatile for every situation. You both can't carry several rifles.


And for the 12ga. One 18" smooth bore and an extra 28" vent rib with chokes for any thing with wings to 4 feet.
View Quote


One is for his wife who will be training with him. Ergo, the two of the same gun.

Rules of a gun fight: 1) Bring a gun. 2) Bring enough gun. 3) Bring your friends with guns. 4) Bring all of their friends with guns.

But yes, I would agree in getting a 12 gauge also. The 870 is one of my favorite firearms.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 12:49:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 1:56:32 PM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 1:53:44 PM EST
Two PSA ar's first. I'd buy 14.5" middays but that's totally subjective
Do this first if you're worried about Obungo or congress.
Then magazines and spares parts, maybe even two PSA blem lowers for the safe.
Next is a .22 - CZ bolt action or 10/22 take down. Magazines and optics
Then a 12g with short and long barrels. Pawn shop or cabelas.
Then go into "pimping" the ARs. Aimpoint and a 4-12x on the other, etc

200 rnds for the 7.08

Good luck

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 2:30:17 PM EST
I will advise you get them now.
Just ask yourself: If SHTF tomorrow, are you ready? You are relatively low on debt, and can pay it off quickly. You can budget built a couple ARs, some mags and ammo for around 2K. This doesn't give you a lot of ammo, but it gets you going.

Going to mirror lots of spare parts, tools, training.

How would you feel if you were lying on the ground bleeding out thinking if that AR that you didn't want to buy yet would have saved your life.

I will tell you I plan on buying 2 more ARs along with a dozen mags for each and 1K of ammo. The idea is to be able to give one to each of my children some day. I want this all by the 2014 elections..
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 3:50:05 PM EST
One thing I haven't seen you mention are sidearms/pistols. Chances are that in most emergency situations where you may need a weapon a pistol will be what would serve you best. Do you already have one for you and your wife, as well as spare magazines, ammo, and spare parts?
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 4:23:09 PM EST
Meh, relax. I saw a ton of ammo at the local walmart today. It had been coming in dribs and drabs and now it's finally starting to come in a steady stream. Be patient, save some money first. Heck you can get a pretty decent starter AR at walmart for what, under $700? The gun ban push is done for now as it's clear the the grabbers that it's a political dead end for now.

However, when you are ready to buy, build your own. It's easy, fun and you will never be at the mercy of a gunsmith to repair it with a few parts and tools.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 5:08:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 5:30:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Chris0013:
Another vote for a couple of ARs. As others have said you can get some good deals on blemished lowers. Search online for complete parts kits (vendor links above are a good place to start.) You could most likely put together 1 rifle (no fancy accessories) for about $600. I would also vote against going into debt to buy them....unless you can follow thru on a plan to pay it off in a few months. I am assuming as a LEO they trained you on your duty rifle (field stripping, cleaning/maintenace, etc...) and with your first rifle you could show your wife the basics. Get mags, ammo, and load bearing gear. When you have one set up get the next together.
View Quote


This is the direction I would go.
Essential Arms (personal preference) or the like, lowers are great if your not hung up on a name or logo. I bought 4 lowers at $85 each (volume discount).
I would work on getting at least one up and running pretty quick so that you have a useful tool while working on the others. Both you and your wife can practice
with it then when you build the others you can branch off into what works best individually. And remember KISS, half the crap people put on their rifles they will
be shedding if they have to pack it very far. Learn to use the iron sights, they work really well when you know how to employ them.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 5:35:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 5:56:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Forest:

Unless it's dark, or your aging...

Optics are force multipliers - red dots in particular allow for faster shots and work in all light conditions.

Like I said, people need to get out and get some professional training, as many shooters don't know what they don't know.
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Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By HEIT_APDST:
Learn to use the iron sights, they work really well when you know how to employ them.

Unless it's dark, or your aging...

Optics are force multipliers - red dots in particular allow for faster shots and work in all light conditions.

Like I said, people need to get out and get some professional training, as many shooters don't know what they don't know.
Yes, but you do need to first master the basics of marksmanship. If you can't use irons, you should not be on optics.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 6:07:25 PM EST
General rule of thumb, dont go into debt for guns. That being said I have done layaway a time or two... i started a layaway in november of last year and paid it off in january... the price of the one next to it on the shelf practically doubled but I locked mine in on the prepanic pricing not expecting a panic to happen. If you have a good dealer you like to use this may be something to consider but dont pay interest on a layaway item or a layaway fee.

The way I look at a lot of this is odds and probability. Its easy to feel pressure to "do something" and accelerate plans instead of stay the course. Id say odds are good theres not going to be another real push until late spring and early summer of next year at the very earliest. Mostly based on trends of politics and election schedules. Theres always a bit of a run whenever elections get close. Id suggest socking some extra cash away until spring and buy two ARs.

A quality handgun and some good training will probably handle the bulk of what youd likely encounter especially indoors. The bolt gun is no slouch eather to handle some of the longer range stuff that may present itself for the time being. We can all play "what if" and it can be fun and terrifying to do but I think you might be better off thinking of "odds are..." i generally put emp, nuke strike, zombie apocalypse farther down on the list than say job loss, civil unrest, inflation, economic collapse.

Youve dont an outstanding job of managing your debts and getting yout crap together and ready for most events and youre more than likely doing better than the bulk of this board (definitely better than I so far) the advice here has been pretty solid so far.

I definitely vote ARs, quality optics (practice with irons too as Ive had batteries die on an optic when I really needed it), magazines, ammo, illumination, and lots and lots of training. Spare parts too, a basic punch set will handle the bulk of what goes wrong on an AR as far as parts go. The more specialized tools you canbpick up later as time and funds permit. Keep up the good work. 1*
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 6:10:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 6:11:36 PM EST by HEIT_APDST]
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Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Yes, but you do need to first master the basics of marksmanship. If you can't use irons, you should not be on optics.
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Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By HEIT_APDST:
Learn to use the iron sights, they work really well when you know how to employ them.

Unless it's dark, or your aging...

Optics are force multipliers - red dots in particular allow for faster shots and work in all light conditions.

Like I said, people need to get out and get some professional training, as many shooters don't know what they don't know.
Yes, but you do need to first master the basics of marksmanship. If you can't use irons, you should not be on optics.


My point exactly. Optics have their place, I have them on all my AR's in some form, but they are (for the most part) quick detach and co-witnessed by irons.
Irons always work, quickly adjustable for range (if you know how), don't require batteries, etc. The .mil used aperture sights on their M-16's for about 4 decades
before optics became common place.

Not to mention, I take no small amount of pride in confidently hitting targets at +300 meters with open sights.

Sorry OP, not trying to hijack the thread, please, continue.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 6:33:51 PM EST
You have a paid for bike ( I assume a motorcycle of some sort ) that is likely worth $2000 and up, but you want to go into debt to buy guns and ammo? The world probably won't fall apart at the end of the month, but the CC bill will definitely be in your mailbox.


Sell the bike and blow the proceeds on a multitude of bad-assery

OR

Save your pennies and accumulate over time, as I assume most here have done
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 7:16:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 7:18:08 PM EST by fisterkev]
I want to commend you for taking care of the other - more important - preps like food and water before you turned to guns. Most people do it the other way around and end up with more guns and ammo than they can use and not enough food to eat. Kudos to you for that.

Truth be told, you don't need much. You can only carry/use one AR at a time. Forget about handouts, that's fantasy. Grab yourself and wifey an AR15-type and call it a day (I highly recommend BCM, quality without spending an arm and a leg). Add a good RDS and some spare parts (at least one extra bolt) and you're golden. Where you will run into problems is with ammo - it's still pricey right now. But truthfully, you don't need to amass 50k of .223 to be solid. Grab enough to train with and a case for each rifle extra and you're good. Yes, you will spend more on the ammo...

Hoping wifey and yourself have CCW. That is a higher priority than rifles.

Rifle use will range from sparing to never. Food is used every day.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 8:53:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2013 8:56:59 PM EST by Recusance]
Whatever you decide to do, i would look into a 5.56 carbine and a 300 blackout carbine.

Both are the same platform and use all the same parts, but the blackout will give you some better hunting options when used with super sonic ammunition. and get into reloading. even if you don't do it as a major hobby, having the tools to make your own ammo is priceless. I make my own Blackout ammunition from spent 5.56 cases, all the components are the same except powder type and projectile.

And I am not afraid of debt. I have the things I want now even though I put them on a CC.

If the the SHTF, Credit Cards would be the least of my worries and when times are good i can afford my CC payments as I usually swap zero interest cards for the ones that accrue interest.

<-----825 credit score.......low balance on high limit cards.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 9:04:20 PM EST
I'd get two ars mags and ammo. Plus I'd get a SW mp15-22. It will make training the wife cheaper. Soon 22s will be inexpensive again. For a couple hundred you can put thousands of rounds away.

If you watch the sales you can find ar lower receivers for $60-80. Buy one and build it out later. Mags are sellling at $9 a unit. Dsg, Aim, bcm and palmetto have good sales.

Get a reloader for the 7mm08. Lee makes some nice one caliber boxed sets. This will save a boatload of money.
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 9:21:57 PM EST
It sounds like you're financially responsible. If you have some room in your budget, I don't see a problem with debt, as long as you can pay off your balance in a timely manner.

Rifles built with a hodge-podge of parts don't really keep their value, so if you'r ever in a position where you need to sell, it may be difficult to get your money back. It might be wise to look at brands that are not too expensive, but are more sought after. A good example is Colt. Find some nice 6920's, and you'd only be in the hole a bit over $2K. They also keep their value well.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:01:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2013 6:08:34 AM EST by WantsAnRRA]
M&P Magpul carbine
I'd take a look at these. S&W seems to build a decent AR for the money.

If your buying on credit, I would buy something that can easily be sold. A factory rifle is easier to do that with.

The Sport model is a great value as well.

A Sport with 10 mags, Aimpoint PRO and 1000 rounds of 5.56 isn't anything to snuff at.

$650 M&P Sport
$400 Aimpoint PRO
$425 case of ammo
$125 10 MOE Pmags
$100 Inforce WML
$50 for MOE handguard and illumination kit

$1750 for a fully outfitted fighting carbine. Just add a sling of your choice. You can upgrade to a better rifle down the road and the mags, ammo, Aimpoint and WML will swap to it.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 8:56:42 AM EST
Another vote for the fewer calibers the better. Consolidate needs to multi-duty rifles and pistols as much as possible.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 9:22:19 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WantsAnRRA:
M&P Magpul carbine
I'd take a look at these. S&W seems to build a decent AR for the money.

If your buying on credit, I would buy something that can easily be sold. A factory rifle is easier to do that with.

The Sport model is a great value as well.

A Sport with 10 mags, Aimpoint PRO and 1000 rounds of 5.56 isn't anything to snuff at.

$650 M&P Sport
$400 Aimpoint PRO
$425 case of ammo
$125 10 MOE Pmags
$100 Inforce WML
$50 for MOE handguard and illumination kit

$1750 for a fully outfitted fighting carbine. Just add a sling of your choice. You can upgrade to a better rifle down the road and the mags, ammo, Aimpoint and WML will swap to it.
View Quote


All good recs regarding the Inforce and Aimpoint especially. And the MOE handguard with the illumination kit is one of the most cost effective and lightweight ways to mount a light on the AR. Also definitely agree with the Pmags, they are the most reliable AR mags I have used. I would say that it may be hard to find them at $12.50 a pop now.

One of my arguments for the AK47 if cost is an issue has to do with ammo cost as well. I'm not arguing that you may be getting 5.56 for $425/1000rds, but I can't find it for that right now. I just checked where I usually get ammo from and 5.56 is running around $500/1000rds (which is getting better, was much higher than this months back) while 7.62x39 is running a little under $300/1000rds. While $200 may not be a lot of dough in the long run, it adds up when you are training and shooting a lot and when you are building up to around 10,000 rds to have back. Feeding two rifles when training can go through a lot of ammo.

As I said before, I love the AR15 and it is probably still my go to rifle, but if I were limited more financially and looking to get into a weapon system quickly, I would go AK47.

Not trying to make this an AR vs. AK thread. I have both. I like both.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 9:42:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2013 9:48:31 AM EST by Lohe]
You can do it for cheap. PSA has a upper and lower build kit here for $490
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ptac-16-m4-1-7-5-56-nato-melonite-yhm-diamond-rifle-kit.html
Then get a Blem stripped lower for $60
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/psa-blemished-bullet-pictogram-lower.html

$550 plus shipping you have a rifle
You can get a set of PSA or Magpul flip up sights for $90

Go on over to primaryarms.com and get a red dot 110 you can get a red dot with riser or for 170 get it with a quick remove lever.

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-Arms-Micro-Dot-With-Removable-Base-p/md-06.htm

Total 810 plus shipping and FFL transfer fee


Plus building the lower you learn how your rifle functions and can fix it if it breaks.... you both could build them together

Edit: and I dont know why people cant find ammo PSA also has that 1K for $419 ammo

Link Posted: 10/22/2013 10:40:07 AM EST
BB gun.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 10:55:35 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lohe:
Edit: and I dont know why people cant find ammo PSA also has that 1K for $419 ammo

View Quote


I stand corrected. As I said, wasn't saying it couldn't be done, just saying that I hadn't found a source that cheap. I just know it is cheaper to shoot my ak47 than my Glock 19.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 11:52:03 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dragynn:
BB gun.
View Quote
That that to GD.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 12:11:33 PM EST
Question for OP...what do you have to support an AR now. Do you have your own mags, cleaning kit, etc.... or are they issued by the dept?

Also....can you take a tax deduction on any of this as you are LEO??
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