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1/16/2020 9:48:49 PM
Posted: 10/8/2007 4:35:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 4:55:14 AM EST by robie1]
I already have several guns, However, I am thinking of adding a tazer to my defensive lineup. the reason is that I just don't feel that every defensive situation warrants killing the other person, but you don't want to risk injury going hand to hand. Sometimes you are just looking for compliance to back the other guy off. tell me what you think.


Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:08:53 AM EST
I think a gun pointed at someone should garner compliance. Surprisingly, many felons are not affraid of having a gun pointed at them.

I am too much of a valued assest to my family to risk hand to hand with a taser and I am not sending a fellow family member forward with a taser while I back them up with a gun. A taser is meant to be used by organizations who serve the public, I do not.

Your efforts would be better spent helping PETA free Brittney's dog then dicking with a taser.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:18:03 AM EST
Can you afford the tazer and practicing with it occasionally? I would prefer pepper spray for a non-lethal weapon. It's considerably less expensive and a single canister could allow you to engage multiple attackers without calling a timeout to reload.

However, keep in mind that either of these options means that you've allowed an aggressor to get within striking distance of you. Do you really want to train for an option where you're at a significant disadvantage if you miss or if there's more than one person?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:31:26 AM EST
Having maced about 30 people and tased about 6 (plus one dog) I think the taser is usually much more effective than mace. Tasers, like any weapon, or any thing, for that mattter, are not 100% effective. I was involved in one incident with a knife wielding suicidal woman advancing on us in which the first taser deployment failed, but the second worked. Taser usually works through clothing, but if it is extremely baggy or thick, it may not.

I think tasers would be a good choice for people who are reluctant to carry a firearm. Let's face it, a lot of people, especially women, just don't want to shoot someone. I think taser is a viable option for them.

The original poster is right when he mentioned that a taser can be used against lower level threats that do not merit the use of a firearm.

I have noticed that people are actually more compliant with the taser, rather than a firearm pointed at them, because they know the threshold for us to deploy the taser is much lower. They know we can't shoot them, but we can make them ride the lightning.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:31:26 AM EST
Cost is not much of an issue. My brother who is a LOE says the same thing that was just mentioned; that pepper spray does not work all of the time, and some people seem to be immune to the effects, while he has nwever had anyone defeat the tazer. He has sprayed and tazered several people.
I don't think "training" with the tazer is much of an issue. I will be getting one with a laser sight.
The reach of the tazer is 15 ft.. I think this is enough reach to stop an unarmed person. I would have a firearm for backup.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:00:51 AM EST
mrcornbread is correct a tazer is meant to subdue your a opponent to gain compliance to a order. most felons do not know the threshold of deadly force use therefor, if your pointing a gun at them ,they believe you will shoot them. pepper spray or mace a a defensive option is easy to use and will cause less hassles in a carry situation. police don't look twice at a pepper spray key chain. you going to get looks if you carry a full size tazer . Now a tazer for a bouncer in a bar...might be good idea.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:18:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 8:20:27 AM EST by MrCornbread]

Originally Posted By Mark_J:
I have noticed that people are actually more compliant with the taser, rather than a firearm pointed at them, because they know the threshold for us to deploy the taser is much lower. They know we can't shoot them, but we can make them ride the lightning.

You can't, I can. You are out being proactive doing a job to protect and serve the public. You have to take risks and evaluate all kinds of factors. You can not shoot a person in cold blood who is not a threat to you

I can just walk away from or avoid trouble, and leave it for the LEO's....AKA paid professionals, as we all should. A lower level threat is just that, not a threat. Why would a civillian zap a person? Expect to get your ass sued off if you do. That is real world survival there. Especially if you own and carry a gun. Carrying two weapons screams I am looking for trouble. Zapping your neighbor screams you are a out of control prick.

If you are not an LEO, people do not have to comply with you, plain and simple. If you are dumb enough to resist LEO's and escalate a situation, you should expect to be schooled by said LEO's, and justly so.

If trouble finds or follows me, it means they broke down my door, ignored verbal warnings or got too close to me or loved ones in a threatening manner. At that point it is over. A person has to work hard to get that close to me in an univited circumstance and I will be affraid for my life. I am not going into shades of gray about compliance. I do not start just shit, just finish it.

Tasers are scenario specific and of little value to the average person. Mace may allow a peson time to get to their baseball bat or gun and finish the job.

I am very curious as to when a civillian, not an LEO, would attempt to get compliance from another citizen as opposed to just walking away? If you want to get compliance from people already inside your home, car or hotel room, we just have to agree to disagree.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:22:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By robie1:
The reach of the tazer is 15 ft.. I think this is enough reach to stop an unarmed person. I would have a firearm for backup.

15' = 5 yards, do your homework here.

What you "think" may get you killed, especially since bad guys do not read, so they do not think, just act. A 9mm or .45 can go 50 yards.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:52:16 AM EST
I had to double check what forum I was in.

Survival, ok.

No, electric gizmo in SHTF no thanks, I'll take my Gun.

Non-Shtf diffrent storie and I have actualy thought abought getting one for the wife.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:07:26 AM EST
'most felons do not know the threshold of deadly force use therefor, if your pointing a gun at them ,they believe you will shoot them'

I can tell you for a fact that is an incorrect assumption.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:26:20 AM EST
Tazer-worst case scenerio=aggravated battery

gun-worst case scenerio=2nd degree murder

Remember when I said not every scenerio calls for shooting? Well I meant just that. I am not talking about someone kicking sown your door and breaking in. MY GOD! I mean, for pure example, as in the case of a guy I (really do) know after Katrina that had to evacuate with his preagnant wife, and inlaws throught the flood waters. He put his wife on an air matress and floated her on it. He is a LEO and had a pistol on him. He was approached and end result was someone did get the air matress his wife was on. Now, as I said...this is only an EXAMPLE. should he have shot this guy for an air matress?
It is obvious that some people like to fantacise about shooting anyone who looks at them cross eyed, but standing in front of someone and pulling a trigger is another matter. I have known 3 people in my life who have done it in a defensive, street scenerio. Only 1 of them were actually justified in the level of force.
I admit that I am not familiar with the laws in Ireland, but in the U.S., if you shoot someone unjustified, you are in a world of hurt.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:34:59 AM EST
There are 2 different tazers for 2 different applications.

The LEO version gives you a 5 second ride, and is used to garner compliance from the individual.

The civilian version gives you a 30second ride, and is used to provide ample time to get away.

You are not getting compliance using the civilian version, as a 30second ride is plenty of enough time to get away from someone...especially with all the pain they will be feeling.

Tazer also has a guarantee on it that if the tazer is gone when you return to the scene with LEO, they will give you another one for free.

All of this information is from my Tazer certified instructor, and is current as of July 28th of this year.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:04:31 AM EST
Imo it is nice to have options if you want one get one.

Different tools in your toolbox.Not every problem is a nail!
Why do so many people carry only a hammer,there are plenty of screws in life and bolts for that matter.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:40:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By robie1:
Tazer-worst case scenerio=aggravated battery

gun-worst case scenerio=2nd degree murder

Remember when I said not every scenerio calls for shooting? Well I meant just that. I am not talking about someone kicking sown your door and breaking in. MY GOD! I mean, for pure example, as in the case of a guy I (really do) know after Katrina that had to evacuate with his preagnant wife, and inlaws throught the flood waters. He put his wife on an air matress and floated her on it. He is a LEO and had a pistol on him. He was approached and end result was someone did get the air matress his wife was on. Now, as I said...this is only an EXAMPLE. should he have shot this guy for an air matress?
It is obvious that some people like to fantacise about shooting anyone who looks at them cross eyed, but standing in front of someone and pulling a trigger is another matter. I have known 3 people in my life who have done it in a defensive, street scenerio. Only 1 of them were actually justified in the level of force.
I admit that I am not familiar with the laws in Ireland, but in the U.S., if you shoot someone unjustified, you are in a world of hurt.

First of all, JESUS CHRIST MAN, reread your post here. Do you think a taser would have helped? Pick a bad area of town, go there with a raft, open a fire hyrdrant and flood the street. then yell racial slurs and get your ass beat really good, then if you live through it, the next day ask yourself if a taser would have helped?

Dude, I am currently not in Ireland and I know what it is like to be around gun fire and in front of it. I have seen plenty of violence in major cities and rural areas here in the USA and I know what I am capable of doing when confronted by it, with a weapon or my bare hands. You only lose once and if you live, you promise yourself that will never happen to you again. I was 6 when I made that promise to myself, right after the last stitches were taken out. I know my distances, I get nervous at 63 yards, I intend to shoot at 21 yards. 15 feet is out of the question in my tactics. No one comes near or touches my loved ones.

All 3 people you know felt they were justified and all lived to debate it.

So I guess what I am saying here is I only fantasize based on what I know I can do. I also know your strategy is fucking flawed in my world. It will get YOU in jail. There is no in between for civillains, either you are in fear for your life or not. Tasers are for cops. Aggrevated battery is not the worst case scenario and read up on civil law. While not directly causing death, tasers have contributed to a couple hundred of them.

A long time ago we use do threads in here called "prison tricks", they always got locked.

Go ahead and follow your logic but remember this, the best quote ever: If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

Thanks for sharing the scenario that drove your thoughts. For me, no matter what shithole I found myself in, no one would take anything out from under mine or any pregnant woman within my reach. That is just me. That is justified, it is not about the air mattress it is about a criminal with criminal intent. Can you say they would not have done harm to her? Can you read the minds of a criminal? Even in posts in here, people differ on the criminal mind. Mind reading will get you fucked up.

To go a step further on minds, your friend was hindered by the fact he is a cop, he thought and acted like a cop. Preserve his career, avoid liability. Shows how well training realy does work. He could not turn it off, he did not have an override button. That is what this forum is about, visualizing and palnning. Plenty of people got killed in Katrina aftermath, both good and bad, one more would not have been a problem.

FYI taser in water may not be a great idea, get a bang stick instead, sharks hate them. Also a single shot but at least lethal.

If you are gonna go this route, then get a serbu and less than lethal loads. You get more than one shot and at least you can jack in real ammo if need be, assuming you have not already been beat to death by the bad guy.

If I really knew you I would say "son you need to develop an edge to you. I am gonna take you hunting. I will wound a rabbit and then you will walk up and tear it 's head off to save on ammo. Grab his rear legs, put his head under your boot and pull. If you step too hard you will hear and feel his skull crush but just ignore it and pull."
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:18:58 PM EST
Mr. Cornbread,

I do hunt. used to box and took martial arts for 14 years when I was younger. I am not at all squeamish and have on two occasions had another man lying at my feet from my hands (although one landed me in trouble). If someone tried to break into my house they would leave in a bag. I was full of piss and vinegar when I was a young man, but life experiences have a way of making you a realist. I think the discussions that you and I have had back and forth have helped me make up my mind. Also, as another has mentioned, It's more "tools in my toolbox". It would also probably be good for my wife who thinks she could never shoot anybody.

P.S. If you find yourself in New Orleans and yell racial slurs in a bad neighborhood, even a gun won't help you. Remember when the mayour of New Orleans made that whole "chocolate city" comment? Well he wasn't just whistling dixie, and they all have a bad attitude!

Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:30:11 PM EST
I've considered this before but just can't see packing those big things around, plus I don't know which situation I would use it in.

I can see how helpful it is for police though.

Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:55:11 PM EST
You must be thinking about those guns that shoot the wires if you say 15 feet range. I didn't even know a civilian can get one of those.

I was thinking more along the lines of the hand held ones with the prongs. If you are close enough to touch him with an tazer you're close enough to stick him with your K-Bar.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:56:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 2:58:13 PM EST by Metalryder]
"Don't Taze Me Bro!"

Sorry..had to do it.

On second thought..since tazers are getting alot of attention lately, maybe just the threat of being tazed by one would be enough of a deterrent.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:02:32 PM EST
Any situation could escalate to the point of needing some firepower. Don't bring a tazer to a potential gunfight, your life isn't worth it. You could still use a less than lethal round like a 12 gauge rubber rocket with oc pepper and you still have the option of loading some 00 buckshot if he turns into a zombie!
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:11:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrCornbread:

Originally Posted By robie1:
Tazer-worst case scenerio=aggravated battery

gun-worst case scenerio=2nd degree murder

Remember when I said not every scenerio calls for shooting? Well I meant just that. I am not talking about someone kicking sown your door and breaking in. MY GOD! I mean, for pure example, as in the case of a guy I (really do) know after Katrina that had to evacuate with his preagnant wife, and inlaws throught the flood waters. He put his wife on an air matress and floated her on it. He is a LEO and had a pistol on him. He was approached and end result was someone did get the air matress his wife was on. Now, as I said...this is only an EXAMPLE. should he have shot this guy for an air matress?
It is obvious that some people like to fantacise about shooting anyone who looks at them cross eyed, but standing in front of someone and pulling a trigger is another matter. I have known 3 people in my life who have done it in a defensive, street scenerio. Only 1 of them were actually justified in the level of force.
I admit that I am not familiar with the laws in Ireland, but in the U.S., if you shoot someone unjustified, you are in a world of hurt.

First of all, JESUS CHRIST MAN, reread your post here. Do you think a taser would have helped? Pick a bad area of town, go there with a raft, open a fire hyrdrant and flood the street. then yell racial slurs and get your ass beat really good, then if you live through it, the next day ask yourself if a taser would have helped?

Dude, I am currently not in Ireland and I know what it is like to be around gun fire and in front of it. I have seen plenty of violence in major cities and rural areas here in the USA and I know what I am capable of doing when confronted by it, with a weapon or my bare hands. You only lose once and if you live, you promise yourself that will never happen to you again. I was 6 when I made that promise to myself, right after the last stitches were taken out. I know my distances, I get nervous at 63 yards, I intend to shoot at 21 yards. 15 feet is out of the question in my tactics. No one comes near or touches my loved ones.

All 3 people you know felt they were justified and all lived to debate it.

So I guess what I am saying here is I only fantasize based on what I know I can do. I also know your strategy is fucking flawed in my world. It will get YOU in jail. There is no in between for civillains, either you are in fear for your life or not. Tasers are for cops. Aggrevated battery is not the worst case scenario and read up on civil law. While not directly causing death, tasers have contributed to a couple hundred of them.

A long time ago we use do threads in here called "prison tricks", they always got locked.

Go ahead and follow your logic but remember this, the best quote ever: If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

Thanks for sharing the scenario that drove your thoughts. For me, no matter what shithole I found myself in, no one would take anything out from under mine or any pregnant woman within my reach. That is just me. That is justified, it is not about the air mattress it is about a criminal with criminal intent. Can you say they would not have done harm to her? Can you read the minds of a criminal? Even in posts in here, people differ on the criminal mind. Mind reading will get you fucked up.

To go a step further on minds, your friend was hindered by the fact he is a cop, he thought and acted like a cop. Preserve his career, avoid liability. Shows how well training realy does work. He could not turn it off, he did not have an override button. That is what this forum is about, visualizing and palnning. Plenty of people got killed in Katrina aftermath, both good and bad, one more would not have been a problem.

FYI taser in water may not be a great idea, get a bang stick instead, sharks hate them. Also a single shot but at least lethal.

If you are gonna go this route, then get a serbu and less than lethal loads. You get more than one shot and at least you can jack in real ammo if need be, assuming you have not already been beat to death by the bad guy.

If I really knew you I would say "son you need to develop an edge to you. I am gonna take you hunting. I will wound a rabbit and then you will walk up and tear it 's head off to save on ammo. Grab his rear legs, put his head under your boot and pull. If you step too hard you will hear and feel his skull crush but just ignore it and pull."


Try explaining to a jury that you killed someone because they took a mattress.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:32:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By EXPY37:
'most felons do not know the threshold of deadly force use therefor, if your pointing a gun at them ,they believe you will shoot them'

I can tell you for a fact that is an incorrect assumption.


Disagree with you. Just ask in the Bros of Shield forum.

Point a gun at a turd and they keep on comming. Pull out the stick and they know you will use it.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:45:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:18:24 PM EST
Well, to clarify a few things:

The standards of using force are the same for LE as for any other citizen in my, and most other, states. In order to use a firearm, there has to be a reasonable belief that a criminal is using or is about to use force that will cause serious physical harm or death. Someone said that while I can not use deadly force in a given situation as a cop, he can as a homeowner/ bystander/intended victim/whatever, and that is dead wrong. As in go to prison for over a decade wrong.

One caveat to that is that different people have different threat levels. An example is that I am a 6 foot 200 pound physically fit cop with 10 years of training, several instructor certifications and two tours in Iraq. A 5 foot, 105 pound elderly female would be justified in using a firearm earlier than I would in an identical, escalating situation.

Face it, we all know people who will not shoot someone because they are afraid of liability or they don't want to carry a gun for whatever reason. Tasers are viable options for them.

I'll admit, I don't carry a less lethal weapon (baton, mace, taser) off duty. That does of course limit my responses. I adjust my actions accordingly.

As someone alluded to;
Don't bring a taser to a gun fight
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:48:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 5:51:28 PM EST by Rogue-one]
As an LEO, the taser gives options and solutions that the police did not have before. The other LEOs that have spoke have said it best, but I will throw my 2cents in

Since moving to a high-risk patrol precinct, I have sometimes seen my squad use the taser several times during a shift and it worked well. As a Sgt I have to investigate each use of force, and I have one PO with over 15 uses in the last three years. I would put "the bad guy was stopped cold" rate of all this POs tasings at 90%. Our policy on their use is not as free as others and the bad guy must be in active resistance or active aggression. Another large portion of our policy is that "If possible lethal coverage should be utilized when deploying the Taser” Yes we have had some fail, but usually the problem was not getting good hits and or one of the probes falling off during the five second cycle. Just a few quick points to keep in mind. All Taser Inc X 26s or newer will record every time you pull the trigger, and only Taser Inc can erase the memory. Also there are identifiers in the taser cartridge itself that when fired will stay at the scene. They look like very small scraps of paper. Taser cartridges cost my department 25 a pop, and with about 750 POs I have seen the Taser and cartridges break in about every way possible. Some of the tasers also have a tendency to develop a delay when you pull the trigger. I have seen a lot of tasers have up to a 3 to 4 second delay after the trigger was pulled before the probes were launched. The solution has been to spark the problemed units before you begin your shift in order to keep the unit in what Taser Inc calls a pre-loaded stated. I could also talk for a long while about getting one of these things wet, but to sum it up avoid it if at all possible .

I think the taser is a great tool for LEOs, and are situation specific, but would not recommend one for an average citizen. Why you ask? First off you will not have a trained individual that has the software to diagnose problems with the unit. Second, for a citizen deciding when to use the taser, or for that matter just pulling it out, will not always be clear and will be very subjective. This could cause a good citizen to get in just as big of a legal problem as using a firearm. Sorry about the spelling an grammar. It’s been a long day
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:27:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By highdraglowspeed:

Originally Posted By EXPY37:
'most felons do not know the threshold of deadly force use therefor, if your pointing a gun at them ,they believe you will shoot them'

I can tell you for a fact that is an incorrect assumption.


Disagree with you. Just ask in the Bros of Shield forum.

Point a gun at a turd and they keep on comming. Pull out the stick and they know you will use it.


Uh, I think we are saying the same thing...
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:56:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 10:07:04 PM EST by j706]
A Taser is a effective weapon when used correctly. A Taser can be used along side of a handgun, if properly trained. (one in each hand) As a long time LEO, I can attest that many felons respect that Taser more than a firearm in some instances. Cost is a factor, practice with the Taser is not, its a point, align red dot and press the trigger. Your range is 21', training loads with a yellow blast door are 15' They will work just like the 21' loads. I believe there are new loads on the market that are 24' or 25'. Taser loads are about $15.00 to $20.00 per shot, you really need at least two.

A doctor friend of mine recently bought one to keep in his Dr.s office. It is open to the public, evenings, in a not so nice section of town. (He also has firearms) Tasers work, they work good, they are more reliable and effective than OC. If you can afford one, buy it. However, they are not a replacement to the firearm, rather a supplement to it. They are an option,IMO, you can not have too many options.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:31:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 2:35:16 AM EST by MrCornbread]

Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:
Try explaining to a jury that you killed someone because they took a mattress.

Try explaining to your wife's mom they killed her because I let them walk up and smash her fucking head in. "Gee I am really really sorry I was such a useless POS and let that happen even when I had a gun. Please forgive me. Now I need to go raise my daughter who no longer has a mom."

There would be no need for a jury, but if there was one, on my jury, they would ALL be parents. That is how jury selection works.

If I shot the guy, it would be my version versus whose? I would not shoot him AFTER he took a mattress out from under a pregnant woman. It would not be over a mattress as it would NEVER get that far. It would be over a fear for my life and that of my loved ones. He ignored my verbal warnings to stop, he ignored my verbal warning I would shoot, then I shot him. I assumed he was armed and dangerous.

No one said anything about any God damn mattress. You only know what he did after the fact, not before. People do not just wake one day and say "screw corp america, starting today I am a career felon." Crook today, crook yesterday.

I am not affraid to go to court over my decsions, been there, done that and won. It ain't rocket science, just law in a court run by humans, flaws and all. Ask OJ.

All this weapon talk in here and little prep on if and when to use them. Lordy. Food and law, both need more review in here over zombie bullshit and wandering the woods with a rifle
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