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Posted: 3/1/2017 1:49:48 PM EST
We're city folk moving to the country.  One of our hay fields is about 25 acres and is fenced on three sides but the fourth is a wooded, meandering creek with a tom of brush.  This creek floods heavily once a year and carries enough debris that it would wipe out the fence on that side most years.  Consequently we are just growing native grass for hay.  We have a farmer friend who is working the hay this year.  He has already applied a commercial fertilizer but we do not want commercial/chemical weed control applied.  There are some undesirable weeds but he says for cattle hay he can live with it for now.  After the first cut he said we might need to talk about it again.  We're very interested in getting things on the place to a natural state.  I know we could probably rotate cows through this pasture if we could properly fence it. We're letting our friend run cattle initially to keep our ag exemption.

Question - are there any organic, natural broad leaf weed killer options that we can use on this 25 acres. We really can't graze it.  We have a pretty decent coyote population in the area so staking goats is a no-go. (I'll be killin yotes as often as possible).  I'm not interested in getting any donkeys for herd protection yet.  Maybe in the future.

Open to suggestions - thanks.
Link Posted: 3/1/2017 2:01:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2017 2:06:28 PM EST
What broadleaves? Cows are good at not eating what they should not eat. 

So option A: You don't have a problem.

Option B is re-seed after plowing and "sterilizing" the seed bed of weeds. Google "false seed bed".

Killing targeted plants like that cannot be done without specifically made poison, which isn't organic.
Link Posted: 3/1/2017 3:18:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2017 3:26:36 PM EST by slankford]
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Originally Posted By cowboy:
Organic weed control doesn't even work on the small scale, much less on real weeds.

The best you can do without 2-4D is to heavily seed and fertilize he things you want to grow and help them stay ahead of the weeds. Pasture weeds thrive in bad dirt so you need to keep your soil in good shape. Chicken litter and lime are the only things I know of that would be natural if you don't want real fertilizer either.

Also to solve your creek/fence issue... run a heavy steel cable between two trees 5-20 feet on either side of the creek. Tie hog panels to the cable all the way across the creek. This lets the rising water and debris through without killing your fence. We've been doing it for 25 years and haven't replaced a fence over a creek since.
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I didn't explain that situation well, the creek gets WAY out of its boundaries.  Which is good for the pasture with the sediment eft behind but bad for the fencing.
The yellow line is the creek, the red line is the part of the field that floods with a heavy current near the creek.  It might be 4-5" deep in a real heavy rain once a year.

Link Posted: 3/1/2017 3:24:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2017 3:36:27 PM EST by slankford]
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Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
What broadleaves? Cows are good at not eating what they should not eat. 

So option A: You don't have a problem.

Option B is re-seed after plowing and "sterilizing" the seed bed of weeds. Google "false seed bed".

Killing targeted plants like that cannot be done without specifically made poison, which isn't organic.
View Quote

Ok, option A makes sense.  Farmer friend said it would not be "horse" hay, but could be "cow" hay.  We're just looking to graze his cattle on some of our pasture then provide some hay for his cattle at another location.  We'll add to the herd in the next few months and retain some of the hay for our own use.

If I could set up a fence that would withstand the floods I'd graze that 25 acre pasture also. 100' elevation drop between the house and the creek.  The creek is almost 100% in the floodplain, it only floods about once a year, only real bad every 2-3 years.
Link Posted: 3/1/2017 10:17:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2017 10:20:35 PM EST by Kitties-with-Sigs]
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 8:17:18 AM EST
2,4-D.  It has a short half life and is your best bet.  Just try not to apply it right before the field floods and you should be fine.
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 9:22:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 9:36:39 AM EST
Thanks for all of the insight, we're staying away from chemical treatments and we'll just put in the necessary work.  I'm thinking about maybe a modular electric fence on the creek side of the pasture so I could graze it during part of the year then move the cows and the fence in the rainy part of the year.
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 12:19:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/2/2017 12:20:27 PM EST by Kitties-with-Sigs]
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 12:47:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 2:50:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs:


Depending on the cattle you have, they can be kept in with a surprisingly light fence.

When we needed to move cattle to rotate hay crops, we used those very light stake-type (metal) fence posts, driven with a hammer, and strung smooth wire between them. The fence box was a good one, and it was pretty damn hot.

This was for docile Hereford and mixed breed beef cattle. Here's the key that made this work...

a-we did not have a bull
b-calves were sold young so they never go to the age where young bull calves started pushing boundaries and busting through fences.
c-If we had one that was a problem and wouldn't stay where he/she belonged, that animal got sold.

Some breeds jump like deer. (The Charolais crosses I've dealt with are awful. Damn near seven feet tall and can jump anything you put up. They could step over the fences we used to use)

Some breeds are just more laid back overall, I think, and the management can make a big difference.

Any cattle will sometimes get out, but if you get a nice hot fence box and walk your fence every few days to keep the weeds down and stuff from shorting it out, it can work without heavy posts or high-tension wire.

YMMV of course, but it might be worth a try for you.

Disclaimer: I have no experience with the smaller, "dairy/meat" animals that a lot of homesteaders are working with now. My experience is with cattle that are primarily EITHER dairy OR meat animals.
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All good input and ideas, I really appreciate your help.  I'm settling in for some OJT!  I'm 58 and have been wanting to get to the country for years.  I'll be 30 minutes away from my job in town but 100 miles out emotionally! 
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 4:58:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2017 5:00:54 PM EST by Vespid_Wasp]
Just to throw my 2 cents in....

The hysteria surrounding herbicides is largely unfounded.

It isn't 'poison' in the way that people think that it is. Most herbicides are actually just heavy doses of plant hormones. The same kind of hormones that they produce on their own.

Give a plant too much growth hormone, and it will grow until it uses up all it's available resources on growth, and then it dies.


This is exactly how 2-4 D works. It is a synthetic auxin. Auxins are plant hormones. It has a half life in the soil of approximately 6 days. Naturally occurring soil bacteria break it down.

Just let the guy spray 2-4 D.

If you can graze it, by all means graze it. Nothing keeps a pasture clean like cattle.
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 11:22:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Vespid_Wasp:
Nothing keeps a pasture clean like cattle.
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Sheep and goats eat anything but good grass.
Link Posted: 3/4/2017 12:10:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Vespid_Wasp:
Just to throw my 2 cents in....

The hysteria surrounding herbicides is largely unfounded.

It isn't 'poison' in the way that people think that it is. Most herbicides are actually just heavy doses of plant hormones. The same kind of hormones that they produce on their own.

Give a plant too much growth hormone, and it will grow until it uses up all it's available resources on growth, and then it dies.


This is exactly how 2-4 D works. It is a synthetic auxin. Auxins are plant hormones. It has a half life in the soil of approximately 6 days. Naturally occurring soil bacteria break it down.

Just let the guy spray 2-4 D.

If you can graze it, by all means graze it. Nothing keeps a pasture clean like cattle.
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http://midwestpesticideaction.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/MPAC_WhitePaper-final-12.11.15.pdf
Link Posted: 3/5/2017 2:22:22 PM EST
The first option is to identify the weeds you want to control.  Find out what is required to remove.  How dense is the weed population?  You may find out that you can spot spray, a backpack sprayer, and get good control of the weed(s) and limit the use of herbicides.  

If you spray, and get a good kill, you may only have to spray once every five or so years, depends on how fast the weeds move it.  Do some research on herbicides, you may surprise yourself that the hype is just that.

Have you run a soil test?  A ton/acre of lime will do wonders.  Liming is usually required every 3-5 years, depending on your area.   

Some weeds can be choked out by simply fertilizing. 

Sounds like you need to run a soil test and get help in identifying the weeds, then you can plan forward.  You may not need herbicide, but I would not rule out its use.
Link Posted: 3/5/2017 8:53:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Vespid_Wasp:
Just to throw my 2 cents in....

The hysteria surrounding herbicides is largely unfounded.

It isn't 'poison' in the way that people think that it is. Most herbicides are actually just heavy doses of plant hormones. The same kind of hormones that they produce on their own.

Give a plant too much growth hormone, and it will grow until it uses up all it's available resources on growth, and then it dies.


This is exactly how 2-4 D works. It is a synthetic auxin. Auxins are plant hormones. It has a half life in the soil of approximately 6 days. Naturally occurring soil bacteria break it down.

Just let the guy spray 2-4 D.

If you can graze it, by all means graze it. Nothing keeps a pasture clean like cattle.
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Who said hysteria?  Using the land the way God created it seems more natural to me than cooking up a special chemical compound to replace labor, grazing or management of the land. 
Link Posted: 3/5/2017 8:57:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JohnnyP:
The first option is to identify the weeds you want to control.  Find out what is required to remove.  How dense is the weed population?  You may find out that you can spot spray, a backpack sprayer, and get good control of the weed(s) and limit the use of herbicides.  

If you spray, and get a good kill, you may only have to spray once every five or so years, depends on how fast the weeds move it.  Do some research on herbicides, you may surprise yourself that the hype is just that.

Have you run a soil test?  A ton/acre of lime will do wonders.  Liming is usually required every 3-5 years, depending on your area.   

Some weeds can be choked out by simply fertilizing. 

Sounds like you need to run a soil test and get help in identifying the weeds, then you can plan forward.  You may not need herbicide, but I would not rule out its use.
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I agree, a soil test is a good start.  How is the lime applied?
Link Posted: 3/5/2017 8:59:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Vespid_Wasp:
Just to throw my 2 cents in....

The hysteria surrounding herbicides is largely unfounded.

It isn't 'poison' in the way that people think that it is. Most herbicides are actually just heavy doses of plant hormones. The same kind of hormones that they produce on their own.

Give a plant too much growth hormone, and it will grow until it uses up all it's available resources on growth, and then it dies.

This is exactly how 2-4 D works. It is a synthetic auxin. Auxins are plant hormones. It has a half life in the soil of approximately 6 days. Naturally occurring soil bacteria break it down.

Just let the guy spray 2-4 D.

If you can graze it, by all means graze it. Nothing keeps a pasture clean like cattle.
View Quote
Cornell Study
Link Posted: 3/5/2017 9:06:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2017 9:15:44 PM EST by Kitties-with-Sigs]
Link Posted: 3/5/2017 10:00:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2017 10:02:26 PM EST by Kitties-with-Sigs]
Link Posted: 3/6/2017 9:27:01 AM EST
Lot's of great information from many of you.  I appreciate all of it, I'm really looking forward to learning the ins and outs of this.  We have the luxury of working full time jobs while we learn the cattle and hay business.
Link Posted: 3/6/2017 7:09:14 PM EST
I reclaimed an neglected pasture by burning it off. You could mow a fire perimeter and then get that field hot enough to kill shallow roots and seed.

One thing I've learned while walking the property is always have a long shovel with you. There's always going to be something you want to smite or dig up.
Link Posted: 3/6/2017 7:21:50 PM EST
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Originally Posted By slankford:
Cornell Study
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Originally Posted By slankford:
Originally Posted By Vespid_Wasp:
Just to throw my 2 cents in....

The hysteria surrounding herbicides is largely unfounded.

It isn't 'poison' in the way that people think that it is. Most herbicides are actually just heavy doses of plant hormones. The same kind of hormones that they produce on their own.

Give a plant too much growth hormone, and it will grow until it uses up all it's available resources on growth, and then it dies.

This is exactly how 2-4 D works. It is a synthetic auxin. Auxins are plant hormones. It has a half life in the soil of approximately 6 days. Naturally occurring soil bacteria break it down.

Just let the guy spray 2-4 D.

If you can graze it, by all means graze it. Nothing keeps a pasture clean like cattle.
Cornell Study



That's not a study, it's a MSDS.

If you want to go the organic route, more power to you. I don't think people understand how little active ingredient is applied with modern herbicides. The vast majority of the spray is the carrier/water.

Hey it's your land! Do what you want.
Link Posted: 3/6/2017 7:22:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2017 7:53:33 PM EST by Vespid_Wasp]
double tap
Link Posted: 3/6/2017 8:05:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/6/2017 8:06:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/6/2017 9:48:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Panta_Rei:
I reclaimed an neglected pasture by burning it off. You could mow a fire perimeter and then get that field hot enough to kill shallow roots and seed.

One thing I've learned while walking the property is always have a long shovel with you. There's always going to be something you want to smite or dig up.
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Good advice and it makes you feel like you're doing something!
Link Posted: 3/7/2017 2:59:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By cowboy:


I saw it before the edit. I chuckled.
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Link Posted: 3/7/2017 7:51:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/7/2017 9:51:04 PM EST
LIme is generally put out in fall, it takes several months for it go go active, change the pH, in your soil.  Most lime trucks I have seen used carry six tons and usually a ton per acre is the standard broadcast rate.  On my place, they bring in the lime in 18 wheeler loads, dump it, then we load the broadcast trucks with tractor loader.

Get a soil test to start with, know your ground before you start making plans.  You should have a extension agent or conservation agency office in your county that can help.
Link Posted: 3/7/2017 10:13:18 PM EST
2-4-D


I wanted organic too. But you let acres get out of control and you'll regret it. There is a reason farmers and ranchers use so many chemicals and that's because they work. Failure to apply the right stuff will leave you with a serious mess and a lot of work. Go ahead though, try organic for a year and learn the hard way.
Link Posted: 3/7/2017 11:19:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/8/2017 5:52:52 AM EST
Just graze a couple of goats in with the cattle. Cows eat grass, goats clean up the brush and forbs.

Build good fence.

Other alternative is to burn it off, then manage for grass so it'll choke out the majority of the weeds. Will always have some, though, making seeds...
Link Posted: 3/8/2017 10:00:38 AM EST
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Originally Posted By midmo:
Just graze a couple of goats in with the cattle. Cows eat grass, goats clean up the brush and forbs.

Build good fence.

Other alternative is to burn it off, then manage for grass so it'll choke out the majority of the weeds. Will always have some, though, making seeds...
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Will coyotes attack a tethered goat?
Link Posted: 3/8/2017 10:06:09 AM EST
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Originally Posted By slankford:
Will coyotes attack a tethered goat?
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In a heartbeat.

Lost a goat like that, actually. Invested in some woven-wire fencing around the field we were working on clearing so we could keep loose goats in along with the steers we were grazing them with. They got things cleaned up really nice, but not before the goats figured out how to use a steer's back as a platform from which to jump over the fence.
Link Posted: 3/8/2017 10:14:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/8/2017 10:34:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cowboy:

And the best way to keep a goat in is to start with a container that is air tight.
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And then you still have to kill it.
Link Posted: 3/8/2017 11:53:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By midmo:

And then you still have to kill it.
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You will do that anyway after you've had enough 
Link Posted: 3/8/2017 12:06:29 PM EST
Hey OP: Organic can work. Emphasis on CAN. Here is what I mean:

We work organically, but on small acreage. HOWEVER, we have more than a few farmers we know that farm full scale organically. Its doable, and there are modern methods that have been developed that make it work. The big trade-off is more time in the fields. We are talking rotating fields, cultivating, modern seeding methods, weed-killing cover crops followed by fodder/pasture seeding at the right time of year, etc. We have taken some of those methods that scale down well and used them, but some methods only work at certain scales (some don't scale up, some don't scale down). You have to find your own butter zone.

It can be done, its just a matter of A) Wanting to do it, B) Committing the time to do it. 

And when it comes down to it, until the weeds get bad there is no reason to go crazy trying to get them all out of the pasture. Like I said, cows are good at only eating what they should. You can even "spot treat" weedy areas as in only cultivate/plow/burn that heavily infested area and re-seed. Quick electric fence keeps the cows out until the new pasture seeds get up to height.

Another key to pasture management is mowing the pasture before the grasses and weeds go to seed. Once they seed, they die, until the next generation comes in (some plants (many weeds) have more than 1 generation per year). If you keep mowing them down, they don't shoot to seed and keep putting energy in re-maturing. Now realize I'm not saying mow it down like you would your lawn, but cut the height in half or so. Dealer's choice if you bale your cuttings. On the one hand, you are getting hay. On the other, the more you drive and work on your pasture, the more you damage it. Small tractors doing the work are better than large ones obviously, but the work is slower with smaller/slower balers, etc. Burning the land every few years is also very beneficial. If you spend a few months every few years in the spring cultivating to sterilize the seed bed, that dramatically reduces weeds. Also remember that broadleaf weeds tend to prefer open, unoccupied soil. Keep SOMETHING growing to help prevent weeds. Releasing chickens to free range will also help as they will walk around all day eating up seeds they find. 

Humanity survived for eons without chemical pesticides, and we have developed organic methods within the last 15 years or so that rival if not out-produce chemical farming results. It is mostly a matter of knowledge.
Link Posted: 3/8/2017 12:15:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 9:14:41 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs:
I'm going to say something else here about cattle management in a situation like yours, because I'm not certain whether you have any experience managing cattle or not.

If I were in your shoes and that was my property, I would plan to feed the cattle a little something even if there's plenty of grass. You'll have to start this sometime other than spring, because in spring the grass is REALLY yummy, so it'll be harder to get them to care. Here's why I suggest doing this:

You're going to need to be able to move those cattle easily and at the drop of a hat because of the flood possibilities. Flooding is never going to come at just the right time. If those cattle are used to moving when you ask them to do so, your life will become WAY easier.

Ever wonder why cows come in to get milked and go oh-so-cooperatively into that milking stall?

It's because they get something out of it beyond offloading that tight udderful of milk. They get fed something they do NOT get any other time. They usually get a little scoop of feed they think is uber-yummy. When we were milking it was a small scoop of sweet feed. At the university farm where I milked as a student, they got either sweet feed or some kind of supplement the professors were testing. (The supplement wasn't very tasty, I'll tell you right now, cuz the cows scheduled to get the supplement were a PITA every damn time. They always tried to grab the wrong stall and eat the yummy stuff. NO COWS tried to steal the supplement. The professors, of course, did not care. We who actually milked the cows felt bad for the experimental subjects. )

Anyway....

So if you set your pasture up so that it is connected to an "uphill" pasture that will absolutely, positively have them safe even if Noah gets an encore, and then you FEED them something yummy in that pasture at least every couple of days--you get them used to coming WHEN YOU CALL--then when they do come up there, they get a treat.

So you keep them in the top pasture exclusively for a few days, where you feed them (same time every feeding is good) their little treat. You call them when you go down to feed.

Then after a few days, you open the gap (electric fence gate) and turn them into the bottom pasture. Close the gap. Then at "feeding time" go down there, calling the cows, open the gap (electric fence gate) between the bottomland and the top pasture, and keep calling until they come up to the top to get their treat.

Eventually you can leave that top pasture open if you want, but the point is that you can call the cows and they will easily come to the top pasture. At worst you could go down there and call/herd them up there, then close the gap and they are safe from flood water. What you don't want is for a flash flood to happen and have some of them trapped down there.

This also will help you with checking your cattle. You will know your cows. Say you have twelve, and one is close to calving and you'd planned to put her up close to the house before she calves, but you go down there, call the cows to feed them, and everybody comes up but her. Well...you've miscalculated her due date. She's off in the bottoms by herself, getting ready to calve. That's bad.

So since you see your cows all the time, you will know something's off before it goes bad. You can go down there and find her, get her up the hill and to a safe place to calve. If you didn't have this regular practice, you might not notice.

Other farmers ( @cowboy ) can chime in here...there are more ways than this to accomplish what I'm suggesting, and having farmers talk about this will help you...it might save your herd, and/or some heartache as if you're any kind of human person, you'll get attached to those animals and whether or not it costs you money, you will hate to see bad things happen to them.

I suspect you already know that good animal husbandry means caring about your animals, which means walking your land and counting your cattle.
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Any good publications you can recommend?  I have a good book from Texas A&M Extension service to identify weeds.  I'd like to read about the organic methods you have talked about.  Thanks for the encouragement, I want to make a good go of it!
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 9:26:13 AM EST
If you need help controlling weed in an organic manner just import a herd of hippies. They will eradicate all your weed.
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 10:35:19 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:


And when it comes down to it, until the weeds get bad there is no reason to go crazy trying to get them all out of the pasture.
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If you let the weeds get bad and build up the weed seed bank, you will exponentially increase the difficulty of controlling them organically.
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 10:42:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/9/2017 10:43:09 AM EST by Vespid_Wasp]
If I may for a moment advocate for the other side of the coin.



Tillage isn't exactly healthy for soil. Every tillage pass reduces organic matter. It disrupts natural soil structure. It kills earthworms. It leaves soil ripe for serious erosion.


No-till farming with herbicides has saved tons of soil from eroding and carrying nutrients into streams and rivers.


I understand what organic farmers are trying to do, and I applaud them for it. Things like cover crops are valuable tools that are being implemented industry wide in agriculture. But organic farming is simply not there yet in terms of returning favorable yields per the amount of effort it takes. And if tillage is in the program, you can make a good case that no-till with herbicides is more sustainable long term than organic with intensive tillage.

If you disc that pasture to kill broadleaves, and then reseed with grasses and legumes, and have a big rain before it is all established, kiss a few inches of top soil goodbye. Burn it down with 2,4-D, the grass doesn't die, and the roots hold when a big rain comes through.


There is a lady locally who is growing organic popcorn. Her weed control program is flaming off the fields with propane burners. Not exactly carbon neutral.
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 10:43:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 10:54:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/9/2017 10:55:24 AM EST by Kitties-with-Sigs]
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 11:46:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/9/2017 12:02:57 PM EST by Vespid_Wasp]
You could consider a heavy seeding of a forage blend this spring. That and some time out there with a hoe killing noxious weeds. A little bit of legume in the mix can provide some protein in the forage and some nitrogen to the grasses.


That's a big area to walk with a hoe though.......


I have implemented some cover crop into our cropping system.


I like covers that winterkill, or if they overwinter, I like fine-stemmed plants that are easy to kill, like crimson clover.


Established stand of oats, radishes and crimson clover behind fall applied manure:

Early establishment:



Late Stand:




Radishes sequester nutrients and enhance water infiltration:



Spring blooming crimson clover, weeds have been suppressed but not eliminated:


Link Posted: 3/9/2017 11:54:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 12:20:56 PM EST
Keep the info coming!

I'm working today and trying to fix a fence after work.  I'll get some detailed answers about question above later tonight (I hope).

I'm not afraid of work!
Link Posted: 3/9/2017 5:24:38 PM EST
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