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Posted: 1/19/2014 4:17:24 PM EDT
Does anybody have a method they use to mark maps that won't easily smear if it gets wet, but can somehow be removed? I found that on the waxy waterproof paper most maps are made on you can use highlighter and get it off with alcohol on a tissue, but if you rub too hard you can smear the inks the map was printed with. I'm just hoping there is something I have not thought to try yet.
Link Posted: 1/20/2014 9:16:38 AM EDT
In the army,
we kept our maps in a mapcase similar to this

Did all the marking with either a grease pencil (older days) or marker, and cleaned with alcohol pads.
map stays protected.
Link Posted: 1/20/2014 10:19:31 AM EDT
colored masking tape.
Link Posted: 1/20/2014 2:23:05 PM EDT
Laminate and use dry erase marker or like others suggested grease pencils, don't wipe off as easily.

Or what I usually do, color photocopy, or even black and white if you don't need the detail, not waterproof, but keeps my originals nice and neat, and I can make lots of copies to put everywhere or give out, and if I draw or write on it, no biggie, just grab another one if you need it clean, or burn if you trying to keep others from what you wrote down. Just my thoughts, and how I do it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2014 2:46:13 PM EDT
Look for military map laminate. You can use clear shelf liner as  a poor substitute
Link Posted: 1/20/2014 3:31:09 PM EDT
Im kind of in a pinch so i tried color pencil. It seems to erase ok so im going roll with that for now. Thanks for the replies.
Link Posted: 1/20/2014 5:05:39 PM EDT
Big ass ziplock bags and a grease pencil
Link Posted: 1/20/2014 5:26:05 PM EDT
I can't find them this second, but I had some markers I used to draw my course on the sectional charts, back when I was flying. They came in a few colors. You drew all over a paper map, and then used the other end to 'erase' it. Worked really great! Found them!. These are the shit, and I believe exactly what you're looking for.


Redman
Link Posted: 1/21/2014 11:51:35 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By JoeRedman:
I can't find them this second, but I had some markers I used to draw my course on the sectional charts, back when I was flying. They came in a few colors. You drew all over a paper map, and then used the other end to 'erase' it. Worked really great! Found them!. These are the shit, and I believe exactly what you're looking for.


Redman
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Those look like they are gone from that sight. I will stop by staples after work to see if they have them. Thanks for the tip.
Link Posted: 1/21/2014 1:04:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By benb:
Im kind of in a pinch so i tried color pencil. It seems to erase ok so im going roll with that for now. Thanks for the replies.
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You'll erase yourself right through your map if you do that a few times
Link Posted: 1/21/2014 1:08:37 PM EDT
I use laminated maps with Staedtler lumicolor permanent markers.
Link Posted: 1/21/2014 6:46:10 PM EDT
My dad used to laminate all his maps, charts, sectionals, etc. with contact paper. Use either the good old USGI Skilcraft grease pencil or the Staedler Lumocolors. Be warned that the Lumocolors can stain the map if left on for a long time. You can clean it off but you'll always be able to see a faint image of what you had written.
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 1:34:38 AM EDT
I bought a laminator a few years ago for a few bucks on amazon and have had a topo subscription forever, so nowadays I just laminate everything, but before that I would often put my map in one of the large map cases that someone linked to above. Either way I have always used a skilcraft pencil to mark it up with, then i take a dab of alcohol or bug spray and just wipe it all clean when done.





My uncle who first taught me Land Nav was a former Robin-Sage grad, (II/5). For him it was absolutely out of the question not only to dare make a mark of any kind on your map, but he got me into the habit of not even allowing yourself to fold the map down at all as it would still possibly give away your past or current location, hence the map case. Now I just print out my topo sheets online and then laminate the back to back, punch a whole through the set and throw a ring through the map pages, my grid protractor and grease pen tied to a length of dummy cord.





That way you also have a small length of cord available in case you want to take non linear measurements as well.

 
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 1:39:26 AM EDT
Laminate and use map pens, keep map in ziplock when not used.





ALTERNATIVE





Use a map overlay.  



Or use both.






Link Posted: 1/23/2014 1:07:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2014 1:08:57 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 1:49:48 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By raf:


Just remember that if you are using any sort of colored light to view your map, it will wash out the same colored marker.  For example, red light is a bad color for viewing a lot of maps, as some features on the maps are in red.



DIM light saves your night vision; the color is almost irrelevant compared to the intensity of light.  That's why some folks make a point of commenting on how dim some flashlights can be made to run.
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Red is used more for the fact the light is harder to detect (I.E. not as easy to pick up at distance), not to save night vision.    



 
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 3:49:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 3:53:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By raf:


Well, that speaks to light discipline.  USGI studies have shown that light intensity, and not color is the determining factor in night vision retention.
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Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By raf:
Just remember that if you are using any sort of colored light to view your map, it will wash out the same colored marker.  For example, red light is a bad color for viewing a lot of maps, as some features on the maps are in red.

DIM light saves your night vision; the color is almost irrelevant compared to the intensity of light.  That's why some folks make a point of commenting on how dim some flashlights can be made to run.
Red is used more for the fact the light is harder to detect (I.E. not as easy to pick up at distance), not to save night vision.    
 


Well, that speaks to light discipline.  USGI studies have shown that light intensity, and not color is the determining factor in night vision retention.

Your first post about color is 100% correct. Don't use red map markers if you're going to use a red lens and you won't be able to see red map features under red light.

Madcap is correct about the use of red lenses over green or blue.
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 4:00:15 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By raf:
Well, that speaks to light discipline.  USGI studies have shown that light intensity, and not color is the determining factor in night vision retention.

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Originally Posted By raf:



Originally Posted By Madcap72:


Originally Posted By raf:

Just remember that if you are using any sort of colored light to view your map, it will wash out the same colored marker.  For example, red light is a bad color for viewing a lot of maps, as some features on the maps are in red.



DIM light saves your night vision; the color is almost irrelevant compared to the intensity of light.  That's why some folks make a point of commenting on how dim some flashlights can be made to run.
Red is used more for the fact the light is harder to detect (I.E. not as easy to pick up at distance), not to save night vision.    

 




Well, that speaks to light discipline.  USGI studies have shown that light intensity, and not color is the determining factor in night vision retention.

That's not the whole story.



Red light in the dark allows us to see details using the cones, but does not effect rods.  The rods can remain dark adapted.  Too bright of red light leaves after images from the cones though, so there is that.





White light, effects both cones and rods.



 
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 4:15:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2014 4:19:16 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 4:24:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2014 4:30:57 PM EDT by Madcap72]



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Originally Posted By raf:
Read up, and see what you think:http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=60376
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Originally Posted By raf:
snip



 

Read up, and see what you think:http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=60376
I don't work on a submarine, and if I'm stomping around looking at maps and need to preserve night vision, I'm going to be a LOT more concerned about what happens AFTER 10 seconds (the limit of the test).
That report seems to have little bearing on what we're talking about, and in the introduction, it even states that red light allows faster dark adaptation over any other color. So, really, it supports my position, which is based on the knowledge of how rods and cones work, and what spectrum's are visible to them and cause reaction.
The entire write up is to support the use of low level white light so people can work inside, since only one person really needs to be able to look outside.
So to answer your question, after reading up and seeing what I think, I think that the report supports what I know, and have learned.  The report is centered around people that need light to work the majority of the time, and need to be dark adapted a minimum of time.



Map reading at night, is the inverse, dark adapted the majority of the time (using rods to see) and only needing to see well (cones) to read a map for a short period.  Red light allows the use of cones to see more detail on a map, while literally having no effect of the rods dark adaptation, meaning once the after image is gone from the cones (quickly), your night vision is the same as it was before you turned the light on.
 
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 4:36:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/23/2014 4:57:11 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By raf:
Agreed, except that red light washes out red details on a lot of maps, which was my main point way above,

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Originally Posted By raf:



Originally Posted By Madcap72:

snip

 




Agreed, except that red light washes out red details on a lot of maps, which was my main point way above,

Which is why you don't see a lot of red map pens used, and NVG/Redlight viewable maps in the military.



 
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 10:34:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 11:22:10 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By raf:


Well, that speaks to light discipline.  USGI studies have shown that light intensity, and not color is the determining factor in night vision retention.
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Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By raf:
Just remember that if you are using any sort of colored light to view your map, it will wash out the same colored marker.  For example, red light is a bad color for viewing a lot of maps, as some features on the maps are in red.

DIM light saves your night vision; the color is almost irrelevant compared to the intensity of light.  That's why some folks make a point of commenting on how dim some flashlights can be made to run.
Red is used more for the fact the light is harder to detect (I.E. not as easy to pick up at distance), not to save night vision.    
 


Well, that speaks to light discipline.  USGI studies have shown that light intensity, and not color is the determining factor in night vision retention.


When did this happen?
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 11:35:17 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By raf:
Fine for the Mil, but what about the non-Mil map user?  A lot of maps accessed and used by civvies have red details in them.  Forget about red light washing out a red map marker for a second.  The red light will also wash out red details contained in a lot of commonly used maps.  Can't avoid that problem by changing marker color.

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Originally Posted By raf:



Originally Posted By Madcap72:


Originally Posted By raf:


Originally Posted By Madcap72:

snip

 




Agreed, except that red light washes out red details on a lot of maps, which was my main point way above,

Which is why you don't see a lot of red map pens used, and NVG/Redlight viewable maps in the military.

 




Fine for the Mil, but what about the non-Mil map user?  A lot of maps accessed and used by civvies have red details in them.  Forget about red light washing out a red map marker for a second.  The red light will also wash out red details contained in a lot of commonly used maps.  Can't avoid that problem by changing marker color.

Critical thinking.





Familiarize yourself with the map in daylight, use a color that will show under red light to overlay key details for use at night, or, realize that maybe it's time to go bright, and use white light, and know that your night vision will be wrecked.  





If it's important enough to use light discipline, and to have to maintain night vision, it's probably important enough to know what's on the map already.



 
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 12:28:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 12:45:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2014 12:47:05 PM EDT by Madcap72]
Because the amount of white light that would allow you to keep your night vision is so low it's barely above ambient, and with red light, you can have it bright enough to see detail (cones), while having ZERO effect on night vision?





The irony, is if you use dim white light, you have to keep it so dim that everything appears grey in order to preserve night vision long term.    Anything above that level, is going to effect the low light sensitivity.





As said, red doesn't have that problem, and it literally can't be seen by the majority of your eye, specifically the part you would be using for stomping around in the dark.
 
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 10:43:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 3:14:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By raf:


Well, that speaks to light discipline.  USGI studies have shown that light intensity, and not color is the determining factor in night vision retention.
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Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By raf:
Just remember that if you are using any sort of colored light to view your map, it will wash out the same colored marker.  For example, red light is a bad color for viewing a lot of maps, as some features on the maps are in red.

DIM light saves your night vision; the color is almost irrelevant compared to the intensity of light.  That's why some folks make a point of commenting on how dim some flashlights can be made to run.
Red is used more for the fact the light is harder to detect (I.E. not as easy to pick up at distance), not to save night vision.    
 


Well, that speaks to light discipline.  USGI studies have shown that light intensity, and not color is the determining factor in night vision retention.


(all other things being equal), isn't there a correlation between color and intensity?
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:18:47 AM EDT
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