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Posted: 1/1/2012 5:21:43 PM EDT
Guys,

I'm broke and so I have had to avoid this forum for about a two years or so! I prepped my butt off and made hay while the sun shined.

But last night, I saw "After Armageddon" (I think that's what it's called) for the second time......and it got me thinking.

The only money I spend nowadays is on training. Tons of training. Rifle classes, pistol classes, etc.

It serves two purposes for me. It's a hobby––so it's enjoyable––and I get a lot of practical knowledge from it.

So.....

How much of a difference do you think firearms training might make in a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation?

I go back and forth with it. After all, low-life gang bangers can always get a lucky shot in there ......and a mob of dudes with shotguns probably will not be phased by a guy who can do really fast mag changes either.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:24:29 PM EDT
Training without mind set = dick
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:25:23 PM EDT
The best I can suggest is to share that training and do your best to create and maintain a community of prepared, like minded preppers.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:26:25 PM EDT
During stress we will fallback to our lowest amount of training. So if we have no training under stress we won't know what to do. Simple
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:27:53 PM EDT
I voted all the difference, but I am not thinking about gun fights, but confidence. A man with training, mindset, and skill can face dangerous situations with more ability and distraction.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:28:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


+1
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:32:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
During stress we will fallback to our lowest amount of training. So if we have no training under stress we won't know what to do. Simple


Right.

My thinking is that a gang of looters with shotguns and no training will still be nearly unstoppable.....even though I've trained my balls off these last few years.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:33:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


My instructor talks a lot about mindset too.

What do you consider to be "good mindset"?
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:34:16 PM EDT
Train in other areas. "Broaden your horizons"
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:35:34 PM EDT
I believe training will give you a place to fall back to when the SHTF, but having like minded friends increases your odds. One trained guy is not as intimidating as 5 trained guys with AR's. Wish I had some like minded friends near me.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:38:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2012 5:39:09 PM EDT by PATRIOT590A1]
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


My instructor talks a lot about mindset too.

What do you consider to be "good mindset"?


good mindset ? that's the ability to drop the hammer on someone with so much as thinking twice about it, the ability to take emotions out of the self defense equation...those that have ability to be cold hearted killers & or do what it takes at the moment of truth, will be the one that walk away from the gun fight alive & survive another day.....
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:51:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


My instructor talks a lot about mindset too.

What do you consider to be "good mindset"?


I would argue that good mindset often can simply be the ability to make a decision and implement it in a given survival scenario. Training of any kind reinforces this and gives you confidence. It is virtually always better to make a decision and get on with it than it is to waver and possibly crumple and give up from paralysis of action.

The specific firearms training itself may not come in handy unless you get in a confrontation, but the confidence you have built into yourself from it will!
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:12:09 PM EDT
the faster, more accurate man will win.
training makes you faster and more accurate.
if you train long and hard, then when SHTF, the training will take over.
when your gun runs dry, you will find that it will reload itself.
you will see the BG, and find you are already on target.

training makes all the difference.

Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:12:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2012 6:44:42 PM EDT by readyornot]
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


My instructor talks a lot about mindset too.

What do you consider to be "good mindset"?


a mind that has already made a list of what is worth killing for. A mind that is able to step up (and down) from white to yellow to orange all the way to black. A mind that won't freeze when it needs to act.

I suggest reading Meditations on Violence by Rory Miller
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:15:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MotherDearest:
Train in other areas. "Broaden your horizons"


Well, I haven't done a lot of knife or hand to hand training. A tiny bit......but not much.

I'm taking a low light pistol class next month.....

Is that what you meant?
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:15:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


My instructor talks a lot about mindset too.

What do you consider to be "good mindset"?

Always having a plan to kill everybody in the room.




Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:20:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick

Mindset without training = dick.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:24:30 PM EDT
if your getting into shootouts, you wont live long enough for it to make a difference...
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:30:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MattNificent:
if your getting into shootouts, you wont live long enough for it to make a difference...


Without training, you're certainly correct.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:32:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By MattNificent:
if your getting into shootouts, you wont live long enough for it to make a difference...


Without training, you're certainly correct.


especially since he also lacks the mindset...
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:34:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By J75player:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By MattNificent:
if your getting into shootouts, you wont live long enough for it to make a difference...


Without training, you're certainly correct.


especially since he also lacks the mindset...


Good point.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:36:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick

Mindset without training = dick.


I disagree. Many fights have been won by poorly trained individuals who seized the initiative and emerged victorious through mere violence of action.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:43:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By springermania:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick

Mindset without training = dick.


I disagree. Many fights have been won by poorly trained individuals who seized the initiative and emerged victorious through mere violence of action.


Exceptions aren't what I'm worried about. I'll take my chances with having the mindset AND the training.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 7:06:51 PM EDT
I hope that it makes all the difference. I've spent the money to take two classes this year and plan to do at least a couple more next year. Training and practice make for faster, more accurate shooting. Without speed and particularly accuracy, SHTF will be over quickly because you'll be DRT. My definition of SHTF covers both macro (econopocalypse) and micro (thug in parking lot), ergo, by definition (mine) training makes all the difference.


Link Posted: 1/1/2012 7:24:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By J75player:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By MattNificent:
if your getting into shootouts, you wont live long enough for it to make a difference...


Without training, you're certainly correct.


especially since he also lacks the mindset...


Good point.


sorry to dry out yalls shtf wet dreams..
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 7:32:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MattNificent:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By J75player:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By MattNificent:
if your getting into shootouts, you wont live long enough for it to make a difference...


Without training, you're certainly correct.


especially since he also lacks the mindset...


Good point.


sorry to dry out yalls shtf wet dreams..


Opinions vary.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 7:39:55 PM EDT
Depends on how SHTF works out. If your SHTF is a home invasion armed robbery, etc.. Training can make all the difference. If it is a continuation of the slow decline of the American way of life, with the dollar eventually buying jack shit and Americans not being able to depend on imported food. Well knowing how to grow your own eats may be a bigger factor. If you ever happen to use a weapon to defend yourself, then training and mindset will make all the difference.

As with anything else a ballanced aproach would probably be best. For instance have 3 tricked out high speed low drag rifles will not do you as much good as one KISS rifle and a course and regular range time. Having those without food and water stores will likely not do you much good either.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 7:42:28 PM EDT
Have you guys ever been to a security guard qualifying shoot, or noticed how the homies/thug types at the range shoot? Barely hitting
full-size silhouette targets at 15 feet......these people shoot pistols occasionally
and spray fire from the hip with long guns.... I agree mindset is a huge factor but if it was undisputable that the S had S the F.... most people like many on this board who can
fairly rapidly hit man-sized targets at 200 yards will have a huge advantage. Esp. those (of us) shooting .308.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 8:30:06 PM EDT
It won't hurt if you get all the training that you can. It's like taking algebra in high school and then taking all those redundant college courses. You may not use everything that they teach you but you did do the training and you will know what to do when the time comes...that or you will have a better idea of what to do than the guy that doesn't have the training.

The mindset isn't something that you can pay an instructor to get IMHO.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 8:40:05 PM EDT
It would absolutely make a difference.

I've seen the difference in competition (the closest any of us will get to a firefight hopefully without having been enlisted and deployed) when it comes to movement, reload, and transitioning between targets.

If there were a group of looters coming down my street with shotguns, even if I were armed only with a pistol, I don't think i'd be all that worried, all things considered. The amount of aimed fire I could put on them in a short time would deter all but the most determined group.

Looters aren't going to behave like a military unit most likely, once confronted with a greater level of violence, they aren't going to continue to advance, and the above mentioned violence of action is going to rule the engagement.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 8:43:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
During stress we will fallback to our lowest amount of training. So if we have no training under stress we won't know what to do. Simple


Right.

My thinking is that a gang of looters with shotguns and no training will still be nearly unstoppable.....even though I've trained my balls off these last few years.


Meh, you will get hit with some bird shot and it will probably hurt like hell, but at the end you should still be the one standing with a rifle. Find a medical professional who has your mind set so they can patch you up and pull out all the shot. Also invest in good eyepro, they should double as sunnies too so you will be wearing them when you need them.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 8:44:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Laryisgary:
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
During stress we will fallback to our lowest amount of training. So if we have no training under stress we won't know what to do. Simple


Right.

My thinking is that a gang of looters with shotguns and no training will still be nearly unstoppable.....even though I've trained my balls off these last few years.


Meh, you will get hit with some bird shot and it will probably hurt like hell, but at the end you should still be the one standing with a rifle. Find a medical professional who has your mind set so they can patch you up and pull out all the shot. Also invest in good eyepro, they should double as sunnies too so you will be wearing them when you need them.

Most shot won't need to be taken out, it will only cause more damage to do so. Agreed about the eye pro. All my shades are at least z87.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:06:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


My instructor talks a lot about mindset too.

What do you consider to be "good mindset"?


Got to be able to vizualize how nasty killing someone can be and accept it is a big part. We all know in an abstract way that we may need to do it but have you ever really thought it through?
Treat everyone like it's their birthday but handle them like they are about to puke on the cake.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:12:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By springermania:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick

Mindset without training = dick.


I disagree. Many fights have been won by poorly trained individuals who seized the initiative and emerged victorious through mere violence of action.


Yup. I'll take a rookie as backup with the right mindset over an highly trained admin puke any day
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:12:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MattNificent:
if your getting into shootouts, you wont live long enough for it to make a difference...



Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:24:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Originally Posted By springermania:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick

Mindset without training = dick.


I disagree. Many fights have been won by poorly trained individuals who seized the initiative and emerged victorious through mere violence of action.


Yup. I'll take a rookie as backup with the right mindset over an highly trained admin puke any day


Let me ask you a question. What, if any, professional firearms training have you had?
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:25:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By superjc:
Have you guys ever been to a security guard qualifying shoot, or noticed how the homies/thug types at the range shoot? Barely hitting
full-size silhouette targets at 15 feet......these people shoot pistols occasionally
and spray fire from the hip with long guns.... I agree mindset is a huge factor but if it was undisputable that the S had S the F.... most people like many on this board who can
fairly rapidly hit man-sized targets at 200 yards will have a huge advantage. Esp. those (of us) shooting .308.





Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:30:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By MotherDearest:
Train in other areas. "Broaden your horizons"


Well, I haven't done a lot of knife or hand to hand training. A tiny bit......but not much.

I'm taking a low light pistol class next month.....

Is that what you meant?


If the only thing you train with is a hammer.......then everything looks like a nail.

training is good, just keep in mind there are many different types of training.
Don't confuse square range marksmanship training (learning how to run a gun)
with learning how to fight.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:33:13 PM EDT
I think it's important to be able to run what you have proficiently, but I also think it's important to have other skills too. Can you find water and make it safe for drinking? Can you treat minor medical problems? What about when they become bigger problems? Can you ID any wild edibles? Do you know what veggies grow well in your area and how to plant them? Do you know how to hunt and dress animals? Can you mend your clothing or sew new ones? Can you sharpen your own tools? What about fixing your car or your house? Can you fight a fire ex. lightening strike on you property?

There are tons of useful skills you can work on besides just being a gunfighter.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:33:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By superjc:
Have you guys ever been to a security guard qualifying shoot, or noticed how the homies/thug types at the range shoot? Barely hitting
full-size silhouette targets at 15 feet......these people shoot pistols occasionally
and spray fire from the hip with long guns.... I agree mindset is a huge factor but if it was undisputable that the S had S the F.... most people like many on this board who can
fairly rapidly hit man-sized targets at 200 yards will have a huge advantage. Esp. those (of us) shooting .308.







Hey, seriously, their heads would explode if they knew the truth about that. It is funny though.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 10:15:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Originally Posted By springermania:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick

Mindset without training = dick.


I disagree. Many fights have been won by poorly trained individuals who seized the initiative and emerged victorious through mere violence of action.


Yup. I'll take a rookie as backup with the right mindset over an highly trained admin puke any day


Let me ask you a question. What, if any, professional firearms training have you had?


Well aside from toteing a pistol every day for the last 23 years. Cert POST instructor, SWAt level 1 and two, Patrol rifle instructor. Police counter sniper level 1 and two. And understanding that a firearm is not the end all be all I'm also a Haganah instructor, DT instructor, Gracie JJ instructor. I have been there and done that more than most but there are certainally some on here that would have a bigger dick than me if we all whipped them out.
I gave my opinion. Agree or not is fine with me
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 10:22:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PATRIOT590A1:
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


My instructor talks a lot about mindset too.

What do you consider to be "good mindset"?


good mindset ? that's the ability to drop the hammer on someone with so much as thinking twice about it, the ability to take emotions out of the self defense equation...those that have ability to be cold hearted killers & or do what it takes at the moment of truth, will be the one that walk away from the gun fight alive & survive another day.....

Shane? Is that u?
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 10:48:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Veracity:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick


My instructor talks a lot about mindset too.

What do you consider to be "good mindset"?


What makes the green grass grow?
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 12:49:21 AM EDT
I voted some difference because I think that there's a pretty small chance that you'll have to use it. Having said that when it's full on foo go time, it's go time and you have to handle business right fucking now. Training absolutely can help you do that. In SHTF the odds go up of a deadly force encounter I guess. Probably depends on what happened.
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 1:11:02 AM EDT
No difference at all.

Most people do not practice enough or have the right mindset to actually make a class worthwhile. On the other side are people who take multiple classes and get nothing out of them as the information/techniques conflicts with previous information.

It would be far better to examine what is actually needed (a couple techniques) then practice, practice, practice.
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 4:49:06 AM EDT
he who shoots first AND hits....wins. all the guns in the world won't made a difference if YOU don't hit. i see many, many shooters sitting on the bench with 10lbs of shit bolted on a 7lb gun shooting through a 20 power optic. they strive for tiny little groups and brag about them. if they are talking to me (i mind my own business until asked) i ask them to stand up and take the shot. they all look at me like i'm nuts.
i then tell that they will never need or use their tier 1 gear while sitting at a bench!
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 4:56:06 AM EDT
It makes a BIG difference. Police are trained for this reason. Military are trained for this reason. In SHTF who do you want toting a gun with you? your brother that is an accountant and has always hated guns? or you Marine brother that loves to shoot? Dont get me wrong. If you cant afford training at least watch shows about true gun handling techniques. Getting off the X, taking cover and returning fire or proper ambush set up is important to know. If you carry the prettiest AR-15 in Post Holocaust neighborhood but dont know crap about combat then your waaaaay behind the curve. As a Deputy... its always the x-serviceman that has gone off his rocker that solicits the greatest fear in me. He has been trained and if a combat vet then has been under fire.Way different than the Homey that only thinks he's bad and has something to prove.
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 6:05:24 AM EDT
Anyone that advises you not to invest in yourself, is not your friend. I avoid these kinds of people in real life. There are always naysayers, many of them are that way because THEY are either jealous that you are willing and able to invest in yourself or they are simply losers who have never accomplished anything of note themselves.

Good training is worth every penny and then some. The people that say otherwise have either never done it or they have had bad training. Most American men think they can drive like Tony Stewart, fuck like John Holmes and shoot like Carlos Hathcock. Having a Monte Carlo, watching porn and playing HALO every week doesn't make it so. Unless you know everything then you aren't operating at your peak ability, it's that simple. Ultimately, your mind is the best weapon, if it's not full of good information or if it's full of shit then you haven't done yourself any favors. If you do know everything then why aren't YOU teaching (and getting PAID enough to make a good living at it), endorsing products, have your own TV show?
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 6:26:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jakoury256:


Yup. I'll take a rookie as backup with the right mindset over an highly trained admin puke any day

Please no. These discussions always immediately gravitate to a ridiculous comparison of the extremes. Then we end up compairing Usain Bolt to Roy Nelson, and Ford Fiestas to Veyrons.

No one is going to have a rookie with a killer mindset, or a gunslinger who can't bear to hurt anyone. Everyone falls in between.

I voted that training may make some difference. Many attacks are sudden violent ambushes that you wont have a chance to react to. If you end up in a situation where you get to make a move, then your training will help.
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 7:14:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By springermania:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Training without mind set = dick

Mindset without training = dick.


I disagree. Many fights have been won by poorly trained individuals who seized the initiative and emerged victorious through mere violence of action.


Take into account who they were fighting. No way to know if their foe had training or not.

Bottom line, anyone can get the drop on anyone regardless of training. Good training however once engaged will make all the differance in the world when it comes to discipline. Train the way you fight, fight the way you train. You don't train, you're good for that first mag. Maybe.... Better make it count.
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 7:38:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jakoury256:

Well aside from toteing a pistol every day for the last 23 years. Cert POST instructor, SWAt level 1 and two, Patrol rifle instructor. Police counter sniper level 1 and two. And understanding that a firearm is not the end all be all I'm also a Haganah instructor, DT instructor, Gracie JJ instructor. I have been there and done that more than most but there are certainally some on here that would have a bigger dick than me if we all whipped them out.
I gave my opinion. Agree or not is fine with me


Ok, so you still speak in a manner in which training doesn't matter without mindset. A good instructor can instill a good mindset and give the confidence needed to over come anything. They can't do it with everybody, but they can usually do it with people that show enough of a desire to learn to fork over a lot of money for real classes.
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