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Posted: 6/11/2016 11:59:28 AM EDT
When I was a child, most of our food was grown here. There were plenty of farms, orchids in California and espeically the SF Bay Area. Much of that area is developed today. Even the rice paddies tha were between Vacaville and Sacramento are gone (and hence the less rainfall in Califironia). I cannot help but notice the fruits that come from South/Central America.

So, what percentage of food is produced here? I ask because if there is a currency crisis, no ship is coming here loaded with the food we are accustomed to eating.
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 12:17:24 PM EDT
I don't know the exact figure, but I wouldn't worry.

There are still lots of farms in my area, and in surrounding states.

Specific foods might rise in price, but there will be enough corn and wheat, and chicken,pork, beef to provide the average American with his diet of choice.

They are even planning to grow hops in my state!

From what I see, most Americans could reduce their caloric consumption considerably, and improve their health.
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 12:23:51 PM EDT
Part of it depends on the season. You can't get fruit that isn't growing in our climate depending on the time of year.
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 12:49:01 PM EDT
Alot, I believe that the US is a net exporter of food.
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 10:27:54 PM EDT
90 some % of all chem fertilizer is made in China.

Then think of all the tools, supplies made in China.

China may not physically grow our food, but I would venture modern chem agriculture would grind to a halt without Chinese imports.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 10:58:48 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
90 some % of all chem fertilizer is made in China.

Then think of all the tools, supplies made in China.


China may not physically grow our food, but I would venture modern chem agriculture would grind to a halt without Chinese imports.
View Quote

I am disheartened to learn this. We were pretty self-sustaining back during the Great Depression and we still had a large segment of our population living in rural areas. Not so much today and very few people are capable of growing their own food.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 11:55:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 4v50:

I am disheartened to learn this. We were pretty self-sustaining back during the Great Depression and we still had a large segment of our population living in rural areas. Not so much today and very few people are capable of growing their own food.
View Quote



I don't know the actual percentages regarding fertilizer made in the US vs. China, but I'm willing to bet if we had to, the US could make fertilizer without too much issue. We're just using our resources to produce something that gives us more value - like FSA leeches Seriously though, while not many people can grow their own food, the vast majority CAN harvest and do manual labor. Just like in the old days. Not everyone had the means to grow their own food, but everyone could work a field to feed themselves/ their family. For sure, more people as a percentage had gardens or produced some food, but it's pretty miserable. Fortunately trade and barter exists.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 12:26:55 PM EDT
The US as a Country has more air able land than any other Country. What this means is .. usable land to grow or raise something to eat.
If I remember correctly we are in the 70% range.
This means if SHTF we can sustain our own population while others slowly starve.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 12:49:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2016 12:51:50 PM EDT by 155mm]
Part of the reason that the USDA gives out billions of dollars in market support, loans, etc. to farmers (other than the obvious lobbying of congress) is for "food security." The argument is that through government planned and subsidized overproduction, the country can withstand unexpected supply reductions (i.e. drought, warfare, tariffs, etc.)

The Farm Bill is massive and is as important to agricultural businesses as DOD budgets are to defense contractors.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 2:53:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Nicodareus:

<snip> but I'm willing to bet if we had to, the US could make fertilizer without too much issue. <snip>
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with what? It would take a great many months or YEARS to bring factories online to deal with all the little vital things that are in one way or another made in China.

A major reason for the actual chemicals being made there is environmental. It would either be VERY expensive to do it here with our environmental laws, or impossible to do in a clean way. Who wants that in their back yard?

Farming USED TO BE local. Tractors did bring in a wave of imported tools, but all that was made in the US with US tooling and materials. Not so anymore. Need a new control module for your tractor? Oops, it has major components that were made in China. Not available. Need a new valve? Same thing.

The more you think about how not just the finished product, but the tooling/supplies required to make the finished product is sourced from over-seas (China in particular), the more you will freak out as to how vulnerable we truly on and completely dependent on imports. See Britain, WW2
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 6:28:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
90 some % of all chem fertilizer is made in China.

Then think of all the tools, supplies made in China.


China may not physically grow our food, but I would venture modern chem agriculture would grind to a halt without Chinese imports.
View Quote

Not sure how true that is, because we ship phosphate fertilizer to china from my area.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 6:47:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Banditman:

Not sure how true that is, because we ship phosphate fertilizer to china from my area.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Banditman:
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
90 some % of all chem fertilizer is made in China.

Then think of all the tools, supplies made in China.


China may not physically grow our food, but I would venture modern chem agriculture would grind to a halt without Chinese imports.

Not sure how true that is, because we ship phosphate fertilizer to china from my area.
I read that figure in an article a while ago. I honestly don't have the link anymore.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 6:49:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
I read that figure in an article a while ago. I honestly don't have the link anymore.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
90 some % of all chem fertilizer is made in China.

Then think of all the tools, supplies made in China.


China may not physically grow our food, but I would venture modern chem agriculture would grind to a halt without Chinese imports.

Not sure how true that is, because we ship phosphate fertilizer to china from my area.
I read that figure in an article a while ago. I honestly don't have the link anymore.

The plant I used to work at produces 5 to 10 thousand tons of fertilizer a day.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 7:20:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Banditman:

The plant I used to work at produces 5 to 10 thousand tons of fertilizer a day.
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Originally Posted By Banditman:
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
90 some % of all chem fertilizer is made in China.

Then think of all the tools, supplies made in China.


China may not physically grow our food, but I would venture modern chem agriculture would grind to a halt without Chinese imports.

Not sure how true that is, because we ship phosphate fertilizer to china from my area.
I read that figure in an article a while ago. I honestly don't have the link anymore.

The plant I used to work at produces 5 to 10 thousand tons of fertilizer a day.
I'd LOVE to be wrong. We, as the most powerful country in the world, should at least be able to feed ourselves.

I still worry about all the tooling and supplies that DOES come from China that we are dependent on though.
Link Posted: 6/13/2016 7:25:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2016 7:28:44 PM EDT by Rat_Patrol]
Interesting link here.

From the link:
Q. Does the United States import or export fertilizer?

A. It depends on the nutrient. For nitrogen, the United States both imports and exports, though ends up a significant net importer. As the largest importer of nitrogen in the world, most of the nitrogen imported into the United States is in the form of anhydrous ammonia and urea. It is important to note that some nitrogen (in the form of anhydrous ammonia) imported to the United States is used in the production of ammonia phosphates such as DAP and MAP, which are then typically exported.
The United States is the world’s largest exporter of phosphate, typically exporting 40-45 percent of its production. The top importers of U.S. phosphate fertilizer are India, Brazil and Canada.

In potash, the United States imports the bulk of its domestic needs. The world's largest potash reserves are just north of the border in Canada, the source of most of the potash used in the United States.

TL/DR version:
A "significant" amount of our nitrogen is imported.
We export phosphate.
We import the "bulk" of our potash from Canada.


ETA:

Link Posted: 6/13/2016 7:29:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2016 7:34:48 PM EDT by Banditman]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Interesting link here.

From the link:
Q. Does the United States import or export fertilizer?


A. It depends on the nutrient. For nitrogen, the United States both imports and exports, though ends up a significant net importer. As the largest importer of nitrogen in the world, most of the nitrogen imported into the United States is in the form of anhydrous ammonia and urea. It is important to note that some nitrogen (in the form of anhydrous ammonia) imported to the United States is used in the production of ammonia phosphates such as DAP and MAP, which are then typically exported.
The United States is the world’s largest exporter of phosphate, typically exporting 40-45 percent of its production. The top importers of U.S. phosphate fertilizer are India, Brazil and Canada.


In potash, the United States imports the bulk of its domestic needs. The world's largest potash reserves are just north of the border in Canada, the source of most of the potash used in the United States.
View Quote


TL/DR version:
A "significant" amount of our nitrogen is imported.
We export phosphate.
We import the "bulk" of our potash from Canada.

DAP production is being cut at my old workplace. I produced over a million tons of it
in my time there. They are switching to a granulated MAP. We sold plenty of fertilizer
to customers in the Midwest. The Anhydrous Ammonia was produced in Louisiana.
It is made from natural gas.
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 11:28:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Banditman:


TL/DR version:
A "significant" amount of our nitrogen is imported.
We export phosphate.
We import the "bulk" of our potash from Canada.


DAP production is being cut at my old workplace. I produced over a million tons of it
in my time there. They are switching to a granulated MAP. We sold plenty of fertilizer
to customers in the Midwest. The Anhydrous Ammonia was produced in Louisiana.
It is made from natural gas.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Banditman:
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Interesting link here.

From the link:
Q. Does the United States import or export fertilizer?


A. It depends on the nutrient. For nitrogen, the United States both imports and exports, though ends up a significant net importer. As the largest importer of nitrogen in the world, most of the nitrogen imported into the United States is in the form of anhydrous ammonia and urea. It is important to note that some nitrogen (in the form of anhydrous ammonia) imported to the United States is used in the production of ammonia phosphates such as DAP and MAP, which are then typically exported.
The United States is the world’s largest exporter of phosphate, typically exporting 40-45 percent of its production. The top importers of U.S. phosphate fertilizer are India, Brazil and Canada.


In potash, the United States imports the bulk of its domestic needs. The world's largest potash reserves are just north of the border in Canada, the source of most of the potash used in the United States.


TL/DR version:
A "significant" amount of our nitrogen is imported.
We export phosphate.
We import the "bulk" of our potash from Canada.


DAP production is being cut at my old workplace. I produced over a million tons of it
in my time there. They are switching to a granulated MAP. We sold plenty of fertilizer
to customers in the Midwest. The Anhydrous Ammonia was produced in Louisiana.
It is made from natural gas.


The reason your production is being cut is because the exchange rate sucks for exporting anything.

The statement that all our Ag equipment is coming from China is ridiculous.

Maybe the little podunk shit we use in our gardens, but, not the Case or John Deere or even the orchard harvesting machinery produced locally.

Tom

Link Posted: 6/17/2016 8:35:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2016 8:39:04 AM EDT by PointBlank82]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Banditman:


TL/DR version:
A "significant" amount of our nitrogen is imported.
We export phosphate.
We import the "bulk" of our potash from Canada.


DAP production is being cut at my old workplace. I produced over a million tons of it
in my time there. They are switching to a granulated MAP. We sold plenty of fertilizer
to customers in the Midwest. The Anhydrous Ammonia was produced in Louisiana.
It is made from natural gas.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Banditman:
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Interesting link here.

From the link:
Q. Does the United States import or export fertilizer?


A. It depends on the nutrient. For nitrogen, the United States both imports and exports, though ends up a significant net importer. As the largest importer of nitrogen in the world, most of the nitrogen imported into the United States is in the form of anhydrous ammonia and urea. It is important to note that some nitrogen (in the form of anhydrous ammonia) imported to the United States is used in the production of ammonia phosphates such as DAP and MAP, which are then typically exported.
The United States is the world’s largest exporter of phosphate, typically exporting 40-45 percent of its production. The top importers of U.S. phosphate fertilizer are India, Brazil and Canada.


In potash, the United States imports the bulk of its domestic needs. The world's largest potash reserves are just north of the border in Canada, the source of most of the potash used in the United States.


TL/DR version:
A "significant" amount of our nitrogen is imported.
We export phosphate.
We import the "bulk" of our potash from Canada.


DAP production is being cut at my old workplace. I produced over a million tons of it
in my time there. They are switching to a granulated MAP. We sold plenty of fertilizer
to customers in the Midwest. The Anhydrous Ammonia was produced in Louisiana.
It is made from natural gas.


The Chinese export a lot of Urea (derived from ammonia). They can make it cheaper from coal than we can from natural gas (especially with no emissions controls).

I think the US doesn't have to worry about fertilizer, as long as we retain good trading relations with Canada.

I'd be more worried about the groundwater situation in much of the arable lands; we've used up much of our aquifers (even worse is China and India) and one day there will be a reckoning.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 10:37:12 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 4of5:



The statement that all our Ag equipment is coming from China is ridiculous.

Maybe the little podunk shit we use in our gardens, but, not the Case or John Deere or even the orchard harvesting machinery produced locally.

Tom

View Quote
I used to think that as well.

But when you see something that is "Made in USA", it is usually made of "US and globally sourced parts".

We get a lot of electronics from Japan, for example. A lot of SMD components come out of China as well.

Then think about all the tooling it takes to make stuff, and all the tooling it takes to make the tooling. The supplies, the contractors that support the US manufacturer, is EVERYTHING they use/consume from the US?

So while the bulk of things may be made here, enough little things are NOT. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Are we capable of manufacturing everything we need? Absolutely! We are America, the greatest manufacturing and economic powerhouse the world has ever seen! My point is that if we lost all imports (or enough vital imports) today, can we flip a switch and make up for it tomorrow? Not a chance. It would take significant time to get production going, and we may have to start new product lines to accommodate the US made parts.

Can we supply our own fertilizer needs? Sure! But it may take a enough time that we see massive chem crop failure for a year/possibly two depending on timing.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 10:50:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2016 10:51:55 AM EDT by Banditman]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
I used to think that as well.

But when you see something that is "Made in USA", it is usually made of "US and globally sourced parts".


We get a lot of electronics from Japan, for example. A lot of SMD components come out of China as well.


Then think about all the tooling it takes to make stuff, and all the tooling it takes to make the tooling. The supplies, the contractors that support the US manufacturer, is EVERYTHING they use/consume from the US?


So while the bulk of things may be made here, enough little things are NOT. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.


Are we capable of manufacturing everything we need? Absolutely! We are America, the greatest manufacturing and economic powerhouse the world has ever seen! My point is that if we lost all imports (or enough vital imports) today, can we flip a switch and make up for it tomorrow? Not a chance. It would take significant time to get production going, and we may have to start new product lines to accommodate the US made parts.


Can we supply our own fertilizer needs? Sure! But it may take a enough time that we see massive chem crop failure for a year/possibly two depending on timing.
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Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Originally Posted By 4of5:



The statement that all our Ag equipment is coming from China is ridiculous.

Maybe the little podunk shit we use in our gardens, but, not the Case or John Deere or even the orchard harvesting machinery produced locally.

Tom

I used to think that as well.

But when you see something that is "Made in USA", it is usually made of "US and globally sourced parts".


We get a lot of electronics from Japan, for example. A lot of SMD components come out of China as well.


Then think about all the tooling it takes to make stuff, and all the tooling it takes to make the tooling. The supplies, the contractors that support the US manufacturer, is EVERYTHING they use/consume from the US?


So while the bulk of things may be made here, enough little things are NOT. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.


Are we capable of manufacturing everything we need? Absolutely! We are America, the greatest manufacturing and economic powerhouse the world has ever seen! My point is that if we lost all imports (or enough vital imports) today, can we flip a switch and make up for it tomorrow? Not a chance. It would take significant time to get production going, and we may have to start new product lines to accommodate the US made parts.


Can we supply our own fertilizer needs? Sure! But it may take a enough time that we see massive chem crop failure for a year/possibly two depending on timing.

We have a big plant here that is permitted and is idled. Would take very little time to put
in service and would be able to produce at least 3 to 5 thousand tons a day. We have the raw materials
here. Phosphate here in central FL, ammonia in LA, potash out west and in Canada.

I just don't see it as something to be concerned with for at least 40 years. After that it
might be an issue with phosphate ore supplies.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 5:17:39 PM EDT
All that corn you see growing is NOT human edible. So don't go looking there.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 5:41:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SShockwave:
All that corn you see growing is NOT human edible. So don't go looking there.
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Ground in to flour, it sure is. Albeit most of it will go as animal feed, then fuel.

My favorite is when it's turned into bourbon.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 5:47:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SShockwave:
All that corn you see growing is NOT human edible. So don't go looking there.
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Field corn is edible.
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