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Posted: 8/31/2015 12:22:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 3:27:53 PM EDT by KCGunnr]
I'm looking to expand my HF capability and move my antenna out of my attic.  
No towers allowed. No HOA, but by gentlemans agreement antennas should be as close to invisible as possible.
I do have houses behind me. I don't have measurements, but lot size is 1 acre to give you an idea of size.
My main problem is no trees of any height. Two cedar trees toward the back that are about 20' high.
I've considered a vertical but my main concern is the invisible dog fence causing interference with ground radials. Anyone with any experience with this?
I *could* put a vertical in the center of the yard, but still then have to protect the antenna from our dogs as well as run coax underground.

Any ideas appreciated.

Link Posted: 8/31/2015 12:55:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 12:57:02 PM EDT by SimpleScout]
Dog fences run at like 10khz or something really low like that, so I doubt it would give you any troubles. I vertical isn't a bad idea. What about a big horizontal delta loop between the house and two trees?

 
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 1:37:33 PM EDT
+1 on horizontal loop. Shape is not a big deal,  try to maximize the enclosed area. Wavelength multiples yield lower takeoff angles so bigger can be better. Figure a tuner as part of the package (but the TS590 internal does just fine on mine with some help from a balun).

Nick
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 1:46:42 PM EDT
An End-Fed dipole is probably your best choice if you don't want to run a coax cable in the ground. You can buy one or build it yourself. Use 14-16 Gauge black, insulated, copper-clad steel antenna wire from the Cableguy. The antenna's feed point can be on top of the roof. Use one of the trees to support the other end. You can also place another mono-band End-fed and use the other tree to support it.
You may also be able to install a horizontal Delta-loop wire antenna (like mentioned in the previous post) with a feed-point at the roof. Use the trees for support.
Another good choice would be a 43' DXE vertical with in-ground verticals. You will need to bury the coax and the radials. Build a barrier from a large diameter PVC pipe at the bottom of the antenna to keep the dogs from damaging it.
Your best choice is to change your gentlemen's agreement and install a 70 ft tower. I don't know the details about your property boundaries and whether you need a permit to install a tower.
The tower does not have to be that tall. You can get by with a 33' tower for a 20-10m beam.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 2:48:55 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gyprat:
An End-Fed dipole is probably your best choice if you don't want to run a coax cable in the ground. You can buy one or build it yourself. Use 14-16 Gauge black, insulated, copper-clad steel antenna wire from the Cableguy. The antenna's feed point can be on top of the roof. Use one of the trees to support the other end. You can also place another mono-band End-fed and use the other tree to support it.
You may also be able to install a horizontal Delta-loop wire antenna (like mentioned in the previous post) with a feed-point at the roof. Use the trees for support.
Another good choice would be a 43' DXE vertical with in-ground verticals. You will need to bury the coax and the radials. Build a barrier from a large diameter PVC pipe at the bottom of the antenna to keep the dogs from damaging it.
Your best choice is to change your gentlemen's agreement and install a 70 ft tower. I don't know the details about your property boundaries and whether you need a permit to install a tower.
The tower does not have to be that tall. You can get by with a 33' tower for a 20-10m beam.
View Quote



I have a Rohn 40' tower and Mosely Tri-bander from my old house. I would love to erect it, but it won't happen here without 75% of the households approving it. (16 homes) on a 20 acre tract.
We are a rural subdivision and county regulations allow a tower but I value neighborhood harmony.

I've built quite a few wire antennas over the years, but always had good, high anchor points and never a dog fence to deal with. I've had both 20 & 40M dipoles in the attic for about 15 years and have experimented with loading up my gutters. The gutters seem to cause a lot of interference both in my house and neighbors. Grounding has never been an issue with indoors antennas but will be with an outdoors one. My shack is on the second floor, front of my house. I bought several 8' ground rods several years ago and need to drive them in....

I've been looking at the DXE 43' for several years and think it may be my best bet.
I may try a delta loop this week and se how it does. I've got the wire and insulators, just need balun and coax.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 3:07:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 3:09:21 PM EDT by KCGunnr]
Updated MSPaint with distances.

Originally Posted By SimpleScout:
Dog fences run at like 10khz or something really low like that, so I doubt it would give you any troubles. I vertical isn't a bad idea. What about a big horizontal delta loop between the house and two trees?  
View Quote


I thinks I'll give the delta loop a try. I've got an AA-54 so I can do a bit of experimenting.

Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:02:12 PM EDT
My vote would be for the vertical.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:35:23 PM EDT

I'd say, "get both"! Use both antennas with the idea that one may work where the other won't. I'd do the loop and the vertical. Feed the loop with ladder line and a suitable tuner. 73, Rob
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:14:50 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KCGunnr:



I have a Rohn 40' tower and Mosely Tri-bander from my old house. I would love to erect it, but it won't happen here without 75% of the households approving it. (16 homes) on a 20 acre tract.
We are a rural subdivision and county regulations allow a tower but I value neighborhood harmony.

I've built quite a few wire antennas over the years, but always had good, high anchor points and never a dog fence to deal with. I've had both 20 & 40M dipoles in the attic for about 15 years and have experimented with loading up my gutters. The gutters seem to cause a lot of interference both in my house and neighbors. Grounding has never been an issue with indoors antennas but will be with an outdoors one. My shack is on the second floor, front of my house. I bought several 8' ground rods several years ago and need to drive them in....

I've been looking at the DXE 43' for several years and think it may be my best bet.
I may try a delta loop this week and se how it does. I've got the wire and insulators, just need balun and coax.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KCGunnr:
Originally Posted By Gyprat:
An End-Fed dipole is probably your best choice if you don't want to run a coax cable in the ground. You can buy one or build it yourself. Use 14-16 Gauge black, insulated, copper-clad steel antenna wire from the Cableguy. The antenna's feed point can be on top of the roof. Use one of the trees to support the other end. You can also place another mono-band End-fed and use the other tree to support it.
You may also be able to install a horizontal Delta-loop wire antenna (like mentioned in the previous post) with a feed-point at the roof. Use the trees for support.
Another good choice would be a 43' DXE vertical with in-ground verticals. You will need to bury the coax and the radials. Build a barrier from a large diameter PVC pipe at the bottom of the antenna to keep the dogs from damaging it.
Your best choice is to change your gentlemen's agreement and install a 70 ft tower. I don't know the details about your property boundaries and whether you need a permit to install a tower.
The tower does not have to be that tall. You can get by with a 33' tower for a 20-10m beam.



I have a Rohn 40' tower and Mosely Tri-bander from my old house. I would love to erect it, but it won't happen here without 75% of the households approving it. (16 homes) on a 20 acre tract.
We are a rural subdivision and county regulations allow a tower but I value neighborhood harmony.

I've built quite a few wire antennas over the years, but always had good, high anchor points and never a dog fence to deal with. I've had both 20 & 40M dipoles in the attic for about 15 years and have experimented with loading up my gutters. The gutters seem to cause a lot of interference both in my house and neighbors. Grounding has never been an issue with indoors antennas but will be with an outdoors one. My shack is on the second floor, front of my house. I bought several 8' ground rods several years ago and need to drive them in....

I've been looking at the DXE 43' for several years and think it may be my best bet.
I may try a delta loop this week and se how it does. I've got the wire and insulators, just need balun and coax.


Try to keep your antennas at least 20 ft. from the house. Loading gutters or having an attic antenna may cause a lot of RFI issues in the house, even at 100 Watts.
You can install a vertical and have it partially hidden behind one of the trees. It will require longer coax. The signal loss will be relatively low at HF frequencies if you use a low loss coax. I would also suggest to have an antenna tuner mounted at the antenna's feed point if you choose an non resonant antenna.
You can also try to install a mobile, screwdriver type antenna at the ground level with ground radials. Look at the longest Tarheel antennas. You can add a longer whip with a capacitive hat to further improve efficiency. A Tarheel antenna can also be used as a coil for a base loaded long wire in a slopper configuration. You may even be able to make it work on 160 meters.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:35:03 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SimpleScout:
Dog fences run at like 10khz or something really low like that, so I doubt it would give you any troubles. I vertical isn't a bad idea. What about a big horizontal delta loop between the house and two trees?  
View Quote

I had horrible RFI from a dog fence in our yard (and occasionally the neighbors yards) on 160-40. Those transmitters are not clean.

My solution for that was to use an X10 lamp module and a remote to turn it off when i used those bands.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 11:02:02 PM EDT



Almost perfect!

270' for a full wave loop, fed with coax and a 2:1 current balun at the corner nearest the house.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 12:17:23 AM EDT
Thanks guys!! I'll let you know how the loop works out.
Just wanting to get a decent antenna up before winter time...
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:42:47 AM EDT
If going with a loop, if you haven't done so already, I recommend calculating or modeling directivity.

Yes, a loop *can* have nice low angle gain performance -  right to the middle of a ham-station-free azimuth, if you're not careful!.

Conversely , maximizing loop size and area produces some nice gain... and nulls - nulls right to the middle of those juicy DX entities that you've always wanted, if you're not careful...

Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:17:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2015 5:14:52 PM EDT by Jupiter7200]
Come off the two trees with rope to a pulley.  Then from insulators at the corners of the loop use rope to go through the pulleys to hanging weights to hold tension on the loop.

That way, when the trees sway in a storm the wire won't break.

Feeding the loop can also be done with 450 ohm "window line" or 600 ohm true ladder line and a balanced tuner.

If you go with coax and 2:1 balun make sure to use a CURRENT balun.  Some have reported better SWR on all bands using a 4:1 balun.  Read here.

https://www.qrz.com/db/N8CNP

Note the SWR for each band.  That's nothing a tuner can't bring all the way down to 1:1 without breaking a sweat.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 10:47:50 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KCGunnr:
Thanks guys!! I'll let you know how the loop works out.
Just wanting to get a decent antenna up before winter time...
View Quote

Waiting for winter weather, especially snow, to put up the antenna adds +6dB.

Link Posted: 9/1/2015 11:20:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Brundoggie:

Waiting for winter weather, especially snow, to put up the antenna adds +6dB.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Brundoggie:
Originally Posted By KCGunnr:
Thanks guys!! I'll let you know how the loop works out.
Just wanting to get a decent antenna up before winter time...

Waiting for winter weather, especially snow, to put up the antenna adds +6dB.



Quotes are finally coming in for the pool project...so the tower is coming soon!

Fewer bugs and cooler weather and time to climb.
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