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Link Posted: 1/17/2022 12:52:14 AM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:


@Vne

14.313Mhz = 14313Khz.  

HF voice is typically single sideband

LSB for 160, 80, and 40 meters

USB for 20-6meters

I doubt your HT can receive SSB signals, probably just AM and FM modes

you need an HF rig or shortwave radio that has SSB capabilities


Lots of cool and interesting stuff to listen to on HF, 14.313 is not one of them

.
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Quoted:

Nope. Totally serious. I'm a moron when it comes to this stuff. I'm still a brand new ham so I've got a lot to learn. Finally realized you guys are talking Mhz and I'm still way up in KHz range. So then I discovered the SW frequencies programmed in this thing. They seem to be in the correct range but I can't change them. Oh well.


@Vne

14.313Mhz = 14313Khz.  

HF voice is typically single sideband

LSB for 160, 80, and 40 meters

USB for 20-6meters

I doubt your HT can receive SSB signals, probably just AM and FM modes

you need an HF rig or shortwave radio that has SSB capabilities


Lots of cool and interesting stuff to listen to on HF, 14.313 is not one of them

.

Gotcha! Thanks for all that. This is gonna cost me a bunch of money. All because I want to hear crazies ranting live.

Here's the next question I've got (which I'm a little afraid to even ask as it'll likely reveal my deep ignorance of the subject). I have access to a pretty good HF radio mounted in the airliner I fly and it's common that we practice various radio skills in cruise. My first time using such equipment I got to call my family with a radio/telephone call on Christmas Eve from over the Atlantic. It was of a non-official nature but done for practice. But most of the HF stuff isn't allowed with a Technician's license. Obviously, a tech's ticket isn't required as an airline pilot. So would I or would I not be violating some rule if I attempted to make an HF contact with the aircraft's HF radio that wasn't strictly work related? I still need to figure out exactly what that radio's capabilities are. I've used such radios for voice communication in the past talking with New York, Shanwick, San Francisco, Honolulu, etc... But I wonder if I could use it to listen to 14.313. These kinds of questions were half the reason I got my technicians license. I want a better understanding of what's going on. Most of us pilots are pretty clueless about the radios we're using, their bandwidth, capabilities, etc. I'm just trying to put it all into perspective.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 8:25:47 AM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted: I have access to a pretty good HF radio mounted in the airliner I fly and it's common that we practice various radio skills in cruise. My first time using such equipment I got to call my family with a radio/telephone call on Christmas Eve from over the Atlantic. It was of a non-official nature but done for practice. But most of the HF stuff isn't allowed with a Technician's license. Obviously, a tech's ticket isn't required as an airline pilot. So would I or would I not be violating some rule if I attempted to make an HF contact with the aircraft's HF radio that wasn't strictly work related? I still need to figure out exactly what that radio's capabilities are. I've used such radios for voice communication in the past talking with New York, Shanwick, San Francisco, Honolulu, etc... But I wonder if I could use it to listen to 14.313. These kinds of questions were half the reason I got my technicians license. I want a better understanding of what's going on. Most of us pilots are pretty clueless about the radios we're using, their bandwidth, capabilities, etc. I'm just trying to put it all into perspective.
View Quote
The following discussion leaves aside any company policies regarding allowable cockpit activities, so bear in mind any corporate restrictions.

First of all, you can always listen legally per the FCC and FAA. If the radio can tune 14.313 then you are GTG. Note that aircraft radios use USB (upper side band) modulation, which is the default on that frequency in the 20M ham band, so no problems there, either. If you wanted to listen to the 40 and 80M ham band you'd have problems because the default there is LSB (lower side band). So most of your listening will wind up being restricted to the 20M ham band (I'll leave it to you to Google what that means )

Second, your aircraft radio license permits you to do things that are aviation related, like communicate with ATC, make radiotelephone calls (I didn't know that any radiotelephone shore stations still existed--when did you do that last?), etc.

Third, your aircraft radio license does NOT permit you to operate on amateur radio bands. For that you will need an appropriate amateur radio license, "General Class" or higher.

I've worked a number of bored pilots who are amateur radio operators and who were playing at that while airborne using the aircraft HF radio. It's rare, but not crazy rare. Mostly it comes down to what your company will allow in the cockpit.

Link Posted: 1/17/2022 10:13:22 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
The following discussion leaves aside any company policies regarding allowable cockpit activities, so bear in mind any corporate restrictions.

First of all, you can always listen legally per the FCC and FAA. If the radio can tune 14.313 then you are GTG. Note that aircraft radios use USB (upper side band) modulation, which is the default on that frequency in the 20M ham band, so no problems there, either. If you wanted to listen to the 40 and 80M ham band you'd have problems because the default there is LSB (lower side band). So most of your listening will wind up being restricted to the 20M ham band (I'll leave it to you to Google what that means )

Second, your aircraft radio license permits you to do things that are aviation related, like communicate with ATC, make radiotelephone calls (I didn't know that any radiotelephone shore stations still existed--when did you do that last?), etc.

Third, your aircraft radio license does NOT permit you to operate on amateur radio bands. For that you will need an appropriate amateur radio license, "General Class" or higher.

I've worked a number of bored pilots who are amateur radio operators and who were playing at that while airborne using the aircraft HF radio. It's rare, but not crazy rare. Mostly it comes down to what your company will allow in the cockpit.

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Quoted:
Quoted: I have access to a pretty good HF radio mounted in the airliner I fly and it's common that we practice various radio skills in cruise. My first time using such equipment I got to call my family with a radio/telephone call on Christmas Eve from over the Atlantic. It was of a non-official nature but done for practice. But most of the HF stuff isn't allowed with a Technician's license. Obviously, a tech's ticket isn't required as an airline pilot. So would I or would I not be violating some rule if I attempted to make an HF contact with the aircraft's HF radio that wasn't strictly work related? I still need to figure out exactly what that radio's capabilities are. I've used such radios for voice communication in the past talking with New York, Shanwick, San Francisco, Honolulu, etc... But I wonder if I could use it to listen to 14.313. These kinds of questions were half the reason I got my technicians license. I want a better understanding of what's going on. Most of us pilots are pretty clueless about the radios we're using, their bandwidth, capabilities, etc. I'm just trying to put it all into perspective.
The following discussion leaves aside any company policies regarding allowable cockpit activities, so bear in mind any corporate restrictions.

First of all, you can always listen legally per the FCC and FAA. If the radio can tune 14.313 then you are GTG. Note that aircraft radios use USB (upper side band) modulation, which is the default on that frequency in the 20M ham band, so no problems there, either. If you wanted to listen to the 40 and 80M ham band you'd have problems because the default there is LSB (lower side band). So most of your listening will wind up being restricted to the 20M ham band (I'll leave it to you to Google what that means )

Second, your aircraft radio license permits you to do things that are aviation related, like communicate with ATC, make radiotelephone calls (I didn't know that any radiotelephone shore stations still existed--when did you do that last?), etc.

Third, your aircraft radio license does NOT permit you to operate on amateur radio bands. For that you will need an appropriate amateur radio license, "General Class" or higher.

I've worked a number of bored pilots who are amateur radio operators and who were playing at that while airborne using the aircraft HF radio. It's rare, but not crazy rare. Mostly it comes down to what your company will allow in the cockpit.


Just woke up this morning and read this and it dawned on me that that wasn't a radiotelephone call at all. It was sat-phone. My last radio-telephone call was closer to 20 years ago. My memory is so foggy on all of this stuff. That satphone call I mentioned was about 8 years ago when I first started flying international and I haven't messed with an hf radio in about 4 years when I stopped flying international. I just checked out on a new aircraft that'll have me doing that kind of stuff regularly again though. Right now I'm just sitting around waiting for the company to schedule the remainder of my training that actually takes place in the plane (which will be heavy with the hf procedures.) I'm guessing I'll be able to mess with this stuff easily on domestic legs when the hf isn't required. It'll be busy as a backup to CPDLC on overwater routes though. I need to look it up but it's possible this aircraft will have 2 HF radios. Maybe I can play with the standby if it does. I recall from the ham tech training that there's limited HF bandwidth techs are allowed to work. I need to look up what that is and see if any is accessible with the aircraft radio.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 10:24:28 AM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 11:13:00 AM EDT
[#5]
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I've been meaning to print that so I can pin it up in my hobby area. I need a big one I can see without readers.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 12:34:50 PM EDT
[#6]
I finally looked it up and this aircraft does have 2 HF radios. I couldn't for the life of me recall what a typical HF frequency looked like in the aircraft so I looked that up too. Attachment Attached File

So, right off the bat I see 2869 to 21964. It doesn't say it but that's obviously in kHz. So it looks like it oughta work for 14313. I found this too...
Attachment Attached File

So apparently I can communicate via AM too. I just wonder what the purpose of that would be.

Anyway, I'm optimistic I'll at least get to hear the 14.313 nutter soon. I haven't found anything yet suggesting I'm not allowed to do this. At least not from the company.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 12:38:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


@Vne

14.313Mhz = 14313Khz.  

HF voice is typically single sideband

LSB for 160, 80, and 40 meters

USB for 20-6meters

I doubt your HT can receive SSB signals, probably just AM and FM modes

you need an HF rig or shortwave radio that has SSB capabilities


Lots of cool and interesting stuff to listen to on HF, 14.313 is not one of them

.
View Quote


Some of the better HT's do receive SSB. My Kenwood F6a will receive USB, LSB, CW, FM and AM.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 1:02:25 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:

Anyway, I'm optimistic I'll at least get to hear the 14.313 nutter soon. I haven't found anything yet suggesting I'm not allowed to do this. At least not from the company.
View Quote



just go here and tune it in

http://rx.linkfanel.net/

. . .better yet, upgrade to general and get a nice 100 watt HF rig
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 1:35:50 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:



just go here and tune it in

http://rx.linkfanel.net/

. . .better yet, upgrade to general and get a nice 100 watt HF rig
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Anyway, I'm optimistic I'll at least get to hear the 14.313 nutter soon. I haven't found anything yet suggesting I'm not allowed to do this. At least not from the company.



just go here and tune it in

http://rx.linkfanel.net/

. . .better yet, upgrade to general and get a nice 100 watt HF rig

Yeah, I keep thinking about that. I like that setup you've got in your vehicle.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 1:36:06 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted: So apparently I can communicate via AM too. I just wonder what the purpose of that would be.
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AM (amplitude modulation) is a less sophisticated, more power hungry and bandwidth intensive form of radio modulation. It is still in use by hams, most of whom have delusions of being AM broadcast stations It used to be the only way you could transmit a signal with a "high fidelity" audio signal. That has since changed with the advent of more modern radios that can increase the audio bandwidth on USB or LSB beyond the traditional 3KHz limit.

I had never seen an airborne HF radio that was capable of AM, I had thought them all restricted to USB. That by itself is quite interesting and smacks of a OLD radio.

On the amateur HF bands it is traditional to use USB on 20M and higher in frequency, and LSB on 40M and 80M. There are actually some legit reasons for this that came from how old time ham radios were designed but now it's just the way things are even in the face of modern radio designs. Like I said, tradition!

If you decided you wanted to make airborne mobile contacts on 40 and 80M frequencies, by all means have at it using USB. It will work better than AM. You will garner a crowd all ready to yell at you that you are using the "wrong sideband". The tradition is so ingrained that some will even tell you it's illegal. It's definitely NOT illegal. Once they find out that you are air-mobile and that USB is all the radio will do they will be very happy to put you in their logbooks.


Link Posted: 1/17/2022 2:09:07 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:...., by all means have at it using USB. It will work better than AM. You will garner a crowd all ready to yell at you that you are using the "wrong sideband"...
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yep

Years ago, when the T32C expedition was going, I worked them on 10 meter mobile.  busted into a HUGE pile-up

I figured they might be on 12m also, so I went down, adjusted the TARHEEL SWR and tuned around.

I found a signal, but could not tune it in.

After a bit, I tried LSB and sure enough it was T32C calling CQ with no takers.

I keyed up and said something like -- "You'd probably have a huge pile-up if you were on upper sideband"

He laughed and said he had just come up from a low band or something.

we both laughed and I got some rare DX with my then FT857 and TARHEEL II

that was a good evening



Link Posted: 1/17/2022 2:09:08 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
. . .better yet, upgrade to general and get a nice 100 watt HF rig
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Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 1/17/2022 2:26:38 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:



just go here and tune it in

http://rx.linkfanel.net/

. . .better yet, upgrade to general and get a nice 100 watt HF rig
View Quote

That site is fascinating. And confusing.
Am I setting this thing up right?

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 2:42:48 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:

That site is fascinating. And confusing.
Am I setting this thing up right?

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/261993/20220117_122511_jpg-2243790.JPG
View Quote
Frequency and mode are right, now you just have to catch him on.  You can also select different locations on the map, which is where the receiver is located.  Depending on propagation at any given time, some stations may not hear him while others will.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 3:15:57 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Frequency and mode are right, now you just have to catch him on.  You can also select different locations on the map, which is where the receiver is located.  Depending on propagation at any given time, some stations may not hear him while others will.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

That site is fascinating. And confusing.
Am I setting this thing up right?

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/261993/20220117_122511_jpg-2243790.JPG
Frequency and mode are right, now you just have to catch him on.  You can also select different locations on the map, which is where the receiver is located.  Depending on propagation at any given time, some stations may not hear him while others will.

Gotcha. I chose the station at Whitby Island, right across the bay from this guy.

Now I wait...

Link Posted: 1/17/2022 3:37:08 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:

Gotcha. I chose the station at Whitby Island, right across the bay from this guy.

Now I wait...

View Quote
Depending on propagation for 20 meters, if the listening station is real close it might hear him, but there the skip-zone where you're too far for shortpath/groundwave and not far enough for atmospheric skip.  So i'd also check stations in the Eastern, Southern, and SE US.  The NW quadrant of the country might not hear him so well.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 6:28:29 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
Depending on propagation for 20 meters, if the listening station is real close it might hear him, but there the skip-zone where you're too far for shortpath/groundwave and not far enough for atmospheric skip.  So i'd also check stations in the Eastern, Southern, and SE US.  The NE quadrant of the country might not hear him so well.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Gotcha. I chose the station at Whitby Island, right across the bay from this guy.

Now I wait...

Depending on propagation for 20 meters, if the listening station is real close it might hear him, but there the skip-zone where you're too far for shortpath/groundwave and not far enough for atmospheric skip.  So i'd also check stations in the Eastern, Southern, and SE US.  The NE quadrant of the country might not hear him so well.


Yep, ideally depending on his TX antenna, anything within 600 miles could be completely deaf.


Link Posted: 1/17/2022 7:34:09 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:


Yep, ideally depending on his TX antenna, anything within 600 miles could be completely deaf.


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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Gotcha. I chose the station at Whitby Island, right across the bay from this guy.

Now I wait...

Depending on propagation for 20 meters, if the listening station is real close it might hear him, but there the skip-zone where you're too far for shortpath/groundwave and not far enough for atmospheric skip.  So i'd also check stations in the Eastern, Southern, and SE US.  The NE quadrant of the country might not hear him so well.


Yep, ideally depending on his TX antenna, anything within 600 miles could be completely deaf.



My God, how did people ever figure this stuff out?
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 7:52:38 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:

My God, how did people ever figure this stuff out?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Gotcha. I chose the station at Whitby Island, right across the bay from this guy.

Now I wait...

Depending on propagation for 20 meters, if the listening station is real close it might hear him, but there the skip-zone where you're too far for shortpath/groundwave and not far enough for atmospheric skip.  So i'd also check stations in the Eastern, Southern, and SE US.  The NE quadrant of the country might not hear him so well.


Yep, ideally depending on his TX antenna, anything within 600 miles could be completely deaf.



My God, how did people ever figure this stuff out?



Take-off angle of RF radiation of some antennas...  

5-10 degrees off the horizon will go a lot further, but be deaf regionally. If you are within 300 miles or so of me, I cannot hear you. And you likely cannot hear me.

For close HF comms you want a NVIS (Near vertical incidence skywave) type antenna which radiates vertically, and bounces off the ionosphere and back down within roughly 300 mile radius of the AO.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 8:38:26 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:

My God, how did people ever figure this stuff out?
View Quote


experience

.....from playing radio

if you heard "CQ PARKS ON THE AIR..." a few hours ago, that was me, not the crazy guy


Link Posted: 1/17/2022 8:56:18 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:


experience

.....from playing radio

if you heard "CQ PARKS ON THE AIR..." a few hours ago, that was me, not the crazy guy

https://i.imgur.com/l9B0B3k.png
https://i.imgur.com/XupBUMj.jpg
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Quoted:
Quoted:

My God, how did people ever figure this stuff out?


experience

.....from playing radio

if you heard "CQ PARKS ON THE AIR..." a few hours ago, that was me, not the crazy guy

https://i.imgur.com/l9B0B3k.png
https://i.imgur.com/XupBUMj.jpg



I heard you.....

Link Posted: 1/17/2022 9:01:36 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:



I heard you.....

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Did I work you ?

it was a short activation, made 22 contacts and headed back home.  Saw some bald eagles too.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 9:08:37 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:



Did I work you ?

it was a short activation, made 22 contacts and headed back home.  Saw some bald eagles too.
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Quoted:
Quoted:



I heard you.....




Did I work you ?

it was a short activation, made 22 contacts and headed back home.  Saw some bald eagles too.



Nope, I heard you calling after idiot stopped talking and I was losing 20m fast. So I went down to 40m and hunted a few POTAs.
Link Posted: 1/17/2022 9:13:09 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:



Take-off angle of RF radiation of some antennas...  

5-10 degrees off the horizon will go a lot further, but be deaf regionally. If you are within 300 miles or so of me, I cannot hear you. And you likely cannot hear me.

For close HF comms you want a NVIS (Near vertical incidence skywave) type antenna which radiates vertically, and bounces off the ionosphere and back down within roughly 300 mile radius of the AO.
View Quote

NVIS is pretty much limited to 160M 80M and 60M. 40M is rarely NVIS usable, above that in frequency, no NVIS at all. A long time ago I did work a military plane on 15M SSB, they were in the air somewhere over the Dakotas, I was in the mid west.
73,
Rob
Link Posted: 1/25/2022 7:41:43 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:

NVIS is pretty much limited to 160M 80M and 60M. 40M is rarely NVIS usable, above that in frequency, no NVIS at all. A long time ago I did work a military plane on 15M SSB, they were in the air somewhere over the Dakotas, I was in the mid west.
73,
Rob
View Quote


NVIS can sometimes go as high as 10 meters but like you said, 80m is probably your best and most practical choice for semi-local and regional comms. Heck, most 80m ham antennas are low enough to do a lot of NVIS radiation patterns. Having an amp really helps too but 100 watts is quite sufficient if both parties have decent antennas (not a tiny, shortened vertical).

As for shortened verticals, I have routinely checked into regional 80m nets from my mobile station (IC-7000 and Tarheel 75A antenna). Of course, only the guys with full size antennas could hear me well.
Link Posted: 1/25/2022 8:59:01 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
Karol is useful as a propagation beacon to the PNW.
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I have actually done it.

Another Arfcommer in WA wanted a QSO with me. I told him to give me his cell number. Then I left the rig on 14.313 and when Karol was booming I gave our guy a call and told him to man his rig. BAM! 5x9!

Ya just gotta remember that you can make lemonade out of lemons.
Link Posted: 1/25/2022 9:00:33 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
This sort of shit should be covered on the general class exam in order to protect new, innocent, unsuspecting general class hams.
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The reason it is not covered is so we can all laugh at you when you fall into the tar pit.
Link Posted: 1/30/2022 3:37:21 PM EDT
[#28]
LOL, I accidentally stumbled into a contact today.  I was wondering why QRZ had no log button for the call but had his name and qth up.  I think I know why.


I received a harmless soliloquy from the guy.  Claimed to have toured motorcycles all over Europe, Africa, Asia while on weekend pass in the military.  OK, sure.

Failing band conditions saved me.
Link Posted: 1/30/2022 4:33:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Need to start and arfcom WAW award.
Worked All Wacos.

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