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Posted: 3/27/2017 10:14:02 PM EDT
Hi Guys....

With Winter finally breaking, I've been infested with squirrels.  They do a fair bit of damage here, so the .22 and the air rifle get something of a workout.  Over the years I've seen a number of posts that ask "what about an air rifle?".  I thought I'd offer an opinion....

At times I end up with a squirrel in the "wrong tree".  Wrong tree is defined as one where the bullet would likely come down in a populated area.  When this happens, I use a RWS Diana 34 Panther in .177 to take the tree rat out.  The little 10 grain .177's simply don't go far enough to be a safety concern.  All other squirrels are safely engaged with various .22 LR rifles...  Over the years I've dispatched somewhere well north of 100 of the little buggers, using everything from the lowly .177, through to compound bows, .22 cg's, 20 gauge shot guns and the occasional .357 or .44 revolver shot load.  I think I've had enough time to accumulate a significant 'sample size'.

I suspect this isn't going to be anything earth shattering.  But here in SF it seems the question (air gun for SHTF?) comes up on a semi frequent basis.  So here it is, for better or for worse...

The .177:  I'm using an RWS Diana 34 Panther.  Its a full sized 46" long, 7.5 lb break barrel pellet gun.  It's advertised as a 1000 fps rifle, which it reportedly does with light weight pellets.  Undoubtedly there are fr better quality, more powerful, more accurate air rifles out there.  Those rifles are also often somewhere in the $1000.00 range.  This RWS is a modest, mid range model.  Its well above Walmart quality, but cn be found for about $250.  It does positively anchor squirrels and bunnies with good shot placement.  Typical cheapo walmart type pellets shoot like you'd expect: shitty.  I use RWS Supermag pellets, which are heavy 9.3 grain full wadcutters.  The full diameter meplat transfers good amounts of energy.  Overall, its a decent game getter.

The .22's:  I've got a bunch.  Over the years I've extensively used a Browning BL22 lever action, a Savage Cub G single shot, A ruger 10/22.  The primary go-to is now a Savage Fv-Sr.  Equipped with a modest quality Cabelas .22 rimfire 3-9X scope.  Given that this priced at nearly exactly the same price as the RWS .177, its a valid comparison.  The FV-SR is roughly a foot shorter, at least two pounds lighter, and uses a ten round magazine versus the single shot pellet rifle.

The observations:

The air gun wins in exactly two categories.  Just two.  And that is ammo cost and weight.  I pick up a tin of 500 quality RWS pellets for about $10.  A similar amount of .22 LR ammo is going to cost me something in the area of $50, more of less.  The .22 ammo is also heavier.

All other categories go to the traditional .22 LR.  But wait, what about noise?  Noise is often noted as the reason why people think about an air gun.  In my experience, the typical  air rifle is LOUDER than a normal .22 LR when fired with a low noise round.  Over the years I've fired dozens and dozens of various CB Caps, and CCI Quiets and they generate LESS noise than a quality, high-powered air rifle like the RWS.  

Cost:  .22 LR wins.  You can find a decent "real" .22 for $150-200.  Most similarly priced air rifles are junk.  Decent air rifles start at about $250 bucks, but of the truly capable ones seem to be far closer to $1000

Weight:  The decent .22's I've seen are significantly lighter than most high quality air guns.

Accuracy:  Its dependent on the rifle.  Yes, someone will claim that their $1000, 9.5lb air gun will outshoot most .22's.  This is true.  But if you want to put a rifle of that level into this test, lets run it head to head with an Anschutz .22 target rifle of the same price and weight.  Dollar for dollar, I suspect most .22 Lr will outshoot similar priced air guns.

Effectiveness: I can get 1000 fps out of my air gun.  But i need to use light pellets to do so.  The heavies seem to work better.  I'm getting about 820 fps with a near 10 grain wadcutter lead pellet.  I've getting about 15 ft/lbs energy at the muzzle, and a mere 10 ft/lbs or so at 50 yards....  the .177 is effective on small game at 25 yards ranges, but rely needs head shots to work well.

Lets compare to various .22 low-noise options.  CB cap is a 29 grainer a 710 fps.  Muzzle energy is 32 Ft lbs, and 28 at 50 yards.  Its significantly QUIETER, yet hits almost three times harder.  There's a bit more energy to work with, so head shots aren't as critical.    I do not have any means of testing noise level, but have seen published reports comparing a spring powered 177 at six feet (105 Db) versus a CB Cap .22 (92 Db).  

The real advantage with the .22 is flexibility.  A air gun is always just an air gun.  Yes, I know that there are .22, .25, .35 and even 45 cal air guns.  Again, they aren't quiet, they do cost more than a good deer rifle, and they are heavy.  The lowly .22, even a little single shot kids carbine like a Cricket or a savage Cub, is small, cheap, light, accurate and flexible.  its effective with Cb caps and CCI Quiet rounds.  And it can still fire minimag's, Stingers and velocitors.  A typical subsonic 22 is usually a 40 grainer at about 1040.    50 yard energy is 82 ft/lbs.  And the CCI Velocitor is a 40 at 1435 fps, with 134 ft lbs energy.  Thats 13 times more killing power than the air rifle.

I'd suggest that the old standby, a Ruger 10/22 or something similar, has a ton more to offer than any air rifle.  If you want quiet, load the magazine with CB Long rounds.  No, it will not cycle the action.  So what?  You now have a manually operated 10 round repeater.  Fire the rifle, then operate the bolt smartly.  You are ready to fire again.  10 times faster than the air rifle.  Find the situation is changed?  Remove the magazine with the CB's  or Quiets, and replace it with a mag full of CCI Velocitors.  You've just taken your quiet game collector/pest disposer and upped the power level by a factor of twelve.  The lowly 1000 fps air rifle with the heavy 10 grain bullet generates a lowly 10 Ft/lbs energy,  while those velocities generate 183 ft/lbs.  And there are at least ten more in the magazine (25 if you so opt) versus the single pellet in the air rifle.

If you haven't yet tried anything along the lines of CB longs or CCI Quiet .22, try some.  They really take your regular plain jane .22, and settle it right down in regards to noise.  they aren't powerhouses, but cleanly, effectively and quietly take out pests and small game without a lot of fuss.

Fro
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 7:53:11 AM EDT
[#1]
Nice write up,  thanks.
Have you tried .22 air rifles? I used to have one, break action. Killed some  pretty big birds and rats with that thing,  no doubt would do nicely on squirrels. Dynamite Noble used to make a heavy, pointed "magnum" .22 pellet.  That stuff was DEADLY. Man, you could sure see the difference between normal pellets and those heavier DN Mangum ones.  Never saw them again though and I remember saving up the last ones I had a kid,  saving them for special occasions. Anyway, you may want to give .22 air rifles a try.
FerFAL
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 8:31:52 AM EDT
[#2]
The 22lr will always win.

There is 22lr virtually everywhere, its cheap and can kill people as well as rodents.

air guns, niche limited capacity. A good airgun will have a higher intial cost. penetration for anything besides tree rats is lacking
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 8:53:26 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The 22lr will always win.

There is 22lr virtually everywhere, its cheap and can kill people as well as rodents.

air guns, niche limited capacity. A good airgun will have a higher intial cost. penetration for anything besides tree rats is lacking
View Quote
Then again 22LR isnt as cheap as it used to be, air gun pellets are much cheaper, and even with SS its not as silent as the air gun. He also mentions neighbours and the 22LR range, another concern.
This thread got me looking into 22 air guns again, some nice things out there.
The ammo I mentioned before was somewhat similar to this one.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 10:40:09 AM EDT
[#4]
I have spent years researching and trying different quiet guns.  At present my personal favorite in a 24 inch marlin 39a.  Its lever action so I don't need to worry about it feeding correctly.   It will feed s,l and lr.  .22 target shorts seem to be the quietest that still hit with good power.  Its much quieter than my .22 gamo whisper.

Op great write up!
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 10:52:43 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have spent years researching and trying different quiet guns.  At present my personal favorite in a 24 inch marlin 39a.  Its lever action so I don't need to worry about it feeding correctly.   It will feed s,l and lr.  .22 target shorts seem to be the quietest that still hit with good power.  Its much quieter than my .22 gamo whisper.

Op great write up!
View Quote
22 short is quieter than the .22 air gun? (just asking, never tried it with a 24inch barrel)
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 11:38:45 AM EDT
[#6]
I don't have shorts but a .22 long (not long rifle) in a longish barrel is awfully tame in the sound department.  In a marlin 39a I would expect them to have less of a snap than a .22 spring air rifle.    I have a side cocking rws 177 and it is a pretty loud snap.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 2:30:45 PM EDT
[#7]
Regarding .22 Air guns.....   At one time father in law ran a commercial fruit orchard.  At times the dogs would go nuts at night, and subsequent investigation would often show that coons were in the orchard.  He was concerned about firing a 'real rifle" at night and upsetting neighbors, so he bought a .22 air rifle.  He figured 'what the heck, the coons are treed and I've got time to shot them".  After trying the .22 air rifle on several such orchard raiders, and seeing truly dismal results, he went back to using regular .22 LR....

Apparently a similar RWS34 in .22 can push a pellet "up to 800 fps".  I don't personally have one to test and chrono, but that is very very likely when using lightweight pellets, likely in the 15-18 grain range.  Expect energy at about 20 ft/lbs....  There are heavier .22 pellets, some in the 20+ grain range, but I suspect that you aren't going to see anything like 800 fps out of a $200-300 air rifle.  Essentially, you are still getting performance that is significantly less than .22 short.  regular .22 CB caps will at least equal, if not outperform, the .22 air rifle.  And shorts will do significantly better.

The noise level of the .22 Air gun will be significant.  I'm seeing test results of 90-101 Db for the .22 air gun.  CCI advertises its .22 Quiet at 68 Db.  Velocities are likely similar, but the Quiet pushes a 40 grain bullet compared to the likely 15-18 grainers for the air rifle.

Essentially the .22 short uses a 29 gr at 710 in a short case.  The new Quiet uses a long case, a 40 grainer, but at the same 710 speed as the short.  

I just tried another purely unscientific test.  I loaded my Browning BL22 up with a .22 short Cb cap, a .22 short, and a .22 Quiet. I filled the tube in this way, so different loads were back to back to back. And I loaded my .177 RWS up and cranked off a bunch of rounds.  

Observations: The CB caps are quietest.  The .22 Quiets are a bit louder.  The .177 is louder than both the CB and the Quiets.  The only shorts I had on hand were an old box of CIL Brand, are listed as having a muzzle speed of 1125.  These are the loudest of the ones tested, and  definitely have the sonic "Crack".  I'm also getting a fair 'echo', which is telling me that the sound is traveling a good 60 yards to the tree line, then bouncing back to me with a fair bit of energy to still be discernible .  for what its worth, its a very damp, dreary day here, the air is  really cold and dense, and its a "loud" day.   Sounds if traveling much better than normal...  Barrel length on the BL22 is 20".  It would be quieter with a longer 24"
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 2:57:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
22 short is quieter than the .22 air gun? (just asking, never tried it with a 24inch barrel)
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I have spent years researching and trying different quiet guns.  At present my personal favorite in a 24 inch marlin 39a.  Its lever action so I don't need to worry about it feeding correctly.   It will feed s,l and lr.  .22 target shorts seem to be the quietest that still hit with good power.  Its much quieter than my .22 gamo whisper.

Op great write up!
22 short is quieter than the .22 air gun? (just asking, never tried it with a 24inch barrel)
Much quieter!  The long barrel really helps.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 8:32:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Used bolt action 22lr stuff should be found for 100 bucks or so.  Just make sure no one killed the barrel cleaning it.

I use cci mini mags for my regular ammo, cycles all my semi-autos and works pretty well for accuracy in everything.

I like cb long 22rimfire more than 22cb shorts, but during the ammo shortage I wound up with both.

The longs are quieter in my opinion and they both performed about the same on a telephone book when I bought the cb shorts and was wondering how they would do. 

I never found a 22 rimfire birdshot round I liked.  Part of it is such a small payload and the other part is the metal crimped versions generally got stuck in the rifle.  They come out easily enough but the extractor would rip through the rim instead of removing the shell.

I have all sorts of shorts, longs, and long rifles and will use em up.  I hope with trump in office that I will be able to just order in a case of cb longs at some point and a couple cases of minimags maybe.  To some extent the mini-mags might get tested against some other 22lr stuff like wolf and eley and what not.

I seriously considered a nice bb gun and I agree ammo is cheaper for them now and probably into the future.

Due to current laws in the towns I have lived in a bb gun shot in the yard is just like firing a firearm in the yard, so I just stuck to 22lr.

Favorite 22lr is a marlin bolt action that is tube fed and is factory labeled as being made for shorts, longs, and long rifle ammo.  I bought it new and while it can be a little tricky getting the tube loaded full of all shorts, it cycles them just fine.

The savage bolt actions use a 5 or 10 round mag and are plenty accurate for yard varmints.  I finally bought a cheap scope to put on one and plan to just use it with cb ammo. 
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 8:42:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Bolt action with long barrel + .22 BB caps (RWS)

They make a pointed version and a round ball. The ball seems to take game well.

They are short, so best in a bolt.

Try them, they are very quiet.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 10:23:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Thanks, I was just looking at some marked down air rifles at Academy Sports. I'm going to stick with 22lr. I have a bunch of squirrels also.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 10:44:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
22 short is quieter than the .22 air gun? (just asking, never tried it with a 24inch barrel)
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have spent years researching and trying different quiet guns.  At present my personal favorite in a 24 inch marlin 39a.  Its lever action so I don't need to worry about it feeding correctly.   It will feed s,l and lr.  .22 target shorts seem to be the quietest that still hit with good power.  Its much quieter than my .22 gamo whisper.

Op great write up!
22 short is quieter than the .22 air gun? (just asking, never tried it with a 24inch barrel)
CB Shorts and CB Longs are far, far quieter than any springer airgun.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 5:43:23 AM EDT
[#13]
I bought a break action crossman  .
I run few different pellets. Wads..points..hollow points and a ballistic tip style.
The wads hit harder..out of mine.
I normal drop dozen or so a year. Due to the hickory trees in our yard.
Itll do it's job...
But it's not a replacement for the 22 or 410 if bigger stuff gets in the area.

And they are loud. 
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 5:59:54 AM EDT
[#14]
.22LR is coming back down in price, just the other day at the local smith (not really a gun shop but they sell ammo and a few accessories) I bought a brick of 22LR for 0.078 cents a round after tax...My 9 yr old son is getting a good bit of use out of his new $114 Wal-Mart (meh we were there, and it was too) Cricket in the last couple days since he got it, and I love spending the time with him teaching him how to shoot it. The look on his face and excitement when he makes a difficult shot under my instruction is well worth it.

He has zero interest in the cheap .22 pellet rifle I have though because it's so big and heavy compared to the powder burner.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 10:08:38 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Regarding .22 Air guns.....   At one time father in law ran a commercial fruit orchard.  At times the dogs would go nuts at night, and subsequent investigation would often show that coons were in the orchard.  He was concerned about firing a 'real rifle" at night and upsetting neighbors, so he bought a .22 air rifle.  He figured 'what the heck, the coons are treed and I've got time to shot them".  After trying the .22 air rifle on several such orchard raiders, and seeing truly dismal results, he went back to using regular .22 LR....
View Quote
Coons take some killin'.  I tried to kill a big coon in a live trap with some Colibri quiet .22 rimfire ammo out of my Rem pump rifle at 1 foot distance.  2 head shots just upset both of us and I had to go back to a std. .22LR round to dispatch it.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 10:24:06 AM EDT
[#16]
I have a break action .22 air rifle, pump .22 air pistol and Savage FV-SR .22

The air guns are substantially louder than the savage using subsonic ammo.

Using CCI quiets and a Specter II is where the suppressed savage really shines.

The savage is constrained to a much smaller target engagement area due to safety concerns, so get both.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 10:47:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Great write up...

And nothing "lowly" about the .22LR; it deserves a lot more respect than it gets. Every man should own (at least) one, IMO.  ETA: with a can?  It's like magic.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 10:48:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Another good thing about the 22 short, my 39a holds like 25 of them.  That there is a lot of squirrel killing power!
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 4:12:21 PM EDT
[#19]
shorts are loud...no value
CB's are quiet but drop hard and are slow
BB caps are quiet and seam to fly a bit flatter...out of long barrel
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 4:46:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Air Rifle. Getting caught shooting one in the city limits comes with a smack on the wrist. Shooting a .22 in city limits is going to land you in court.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 6:16:26 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
Air Rifle. Getting caught shooting one in the city limits comes with a smack on the wrist. Shooting a .22 in city limits is going to land you in court.
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IMO that's about the only reason to own a air rifle. Other than when idiots are emptying the store shelves of .22lr or any and all ammo.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 7:05:34 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
Air Rifle. Getting caught shooting one in the city limits comes with a smack on the wrist. Shooting a .22 in city limits is going to land you in court.
View Quote
I guess the firearm would bring more laws into play.

Few decades ago as a kid I got to learn that town I was growing up in had a heck of a list of things not to be fired in the town limits.

bb gun, firearm, paintball gun, bow, cross bow, slingshot, and I am probably forgetting some other specifically named things.  Overall they had language to cover anyone trying to say a pellet gun was not a bb gun or a compound bow was not a bow or stuff like that.

Neighbor down the road did some serious hunting with compound bows.  They had a nice range.  Their property backed up onto a shut down gravel pit, so no one living behind them and just overgrown woods behind them.  Got in trouble for the bows and arrows. 
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 9:29:14 PM EDT
[#23]
I specifically bought the air rifle I have to shoot in my back yard since I lived in town a couple years ago. (not because I wanted too). One afternoon their was a knock in the door after I had come inside to get something to drink and to of the cities police officers informed me that, while it's not a firearm, it's against city ordnance. So I asked what COULD I "shoot" in my yard. Basically I was told nothing, not even a sling shot.  I told them I understood they're just doing their job, but wtf? They sympathized with me talking about how growing up they did the same...

I still shot it often. Just got more careful about being seen doing so and since it's not regulated on air rifles, made a suppressor for it. A BIG one.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 10:02:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Wish I had seen this a few years ago before I bought an airgun!  

I can confirm that a super colibri out of a CZ 453 is far quieter than a Gamo Whisper, and hits much harder.  Even though it is lower velocity, the super colibri is much heavier than a typical pellet (and heavier pellets won't be moving at maximum advertised fps out of the air rifle).  The Gamo is advertised at something like 1200 fps, but that is with super light pellets (which apparently go supersonic and are loud).
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 10:57:38 PM EDT
[#25]
My RWS Diana 34 panther is advertised as a "velocities up to 1000fps" air rifle.   I ran it over the chrono this morning.  I use RWS Supermag wadcutter .177" pellets, running 9.3 grains according to the label on the can.  Actual chronoed speeds are running an ave of about 780 fps.  Thats a far cry from 1000 fps.

The various .22 CB's typically push a 29 grainer, of larger diameter, to 710 fps.  Thats about 9% slower, but the projectile weight is more than three times heavier.  Yup.  The CB hits considerably harder than the .177 in this case.  And all calculations and measurements aside, years of popping pests with both the .177 air rifle and .22 CB caps has demonstrated this to me very graphically.
Link Posted: 3/30/2017 8:37:30 AM EDT
[#26]
very interesting thread. glad I never bought into the airgun craze. had a guy trying to get me into a 25 caliber pcp once.

22lr pre-Obama was my favorite cartridge bar none. after years of ammo drought and current prices (which seem to be the new norm?) it just doesn't have the same flair as it once had. I remember spending $35 for a brick of cci quick shot took a lot of persuading myself when I could buy federal 550 bulk for $13. but the impact it has on ground squirrels and the smiles it created was worth the cost. now bulk ammo is over that cost and I haven't seen quick shot in years and I'm assuming its probably doubled in price as well.

now days I'm looking to find a small 22 caliber centerfire that I can cast and load for to replace my 22's (not figuratively but in usage) a 22 hornet, 22 tcm, or a wildcat I'm going to try is more in the scope of my mind. aside from time (and initial investment of molds, dies, ect..) i'll be able to load a "brick" (500 rounds) of the tiny pip squeeks for $15 and best part is I could load them from cb levels with a grain or two of fast pistol powder on up to full power loads with jacketed bullets and everywhere inbetween. best part is i'll be in control of being able to make it as needed vs it being unobtanium. I did stack 22lr fairly deep (15K-20K rounds) pre Obama but that's has dwindled to sub 3k and sadly that's with rationing it these last couple years. I can stockpile small pistol primers and pistol powder as normal and it has a broader use.
Link Posted: 3/30/2017 11:47:50 AM EDT
[#27]
I might be paranoid but I'd be careful saying you kill squirrels online OP.

I saw a YouTube video and the author made a video of him using (maybe a .22, I forget) to dispatch a couple of squirrels that were ruining his attic and a viewer ratted him out to his local LEO's and they actually came out and harassed  him for it.  I gue$$ he didn't a$k permi$$ion from big brother and get hi$ permit$. Iirc.

There are some real douchebags out there.
Link Posted: 3/30/2017 11:51:26 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
very interesting thread. glad I never bought into the airgun craze. had a guy trying to get me into a 25 caliber pcp once.

22lr pre-Obama was my favorite cartridge bar none. after years of ammo drought and current prices (which seem to be the new norm?) it just doesn't have the same flair as it once had. I remember spending $35 for a brick of cci quick shot took a lot of persuading myself when I could buy federal 550 bulk for $13. but the impact it has on ground squirrels and the smiles it created was worth the cost. now bulk ammo is over that cost and I haven't seen quick shot in years and I'm assuming its probably doubled in price as well.

now days I'm looking to find a small 22 caliber centerfire that I can cast and load for to replace my 22's (not figuratively but in usage) a 22 hornet, 22 tcm, or a wildcat I'm going to try is more in the scope of my mind. aside from time (and initial investment of molds, dies, ect..) i'll be able to load a "brick" (500 rounds) of the tiny pip squeeks for $15 and best part is I could load them from cb levels with a grain or two of fast pistol powder on up to full power loads with jacketed bullets and everywhere inbetween. best part is i'll be in control of being able to make it as needed vs it being unobtanium. I did stack 22lr fairly deep (15K-20K rounds) pre Obama but that's has dwindled to sub 3k and sadly that's with rationing it these last couple years. I can stockpile small pistol primers and pistol powder as normal and it has a broader use.
View Quote
I know, right?  Where the fuck is the .22?  It's still not to levels it was and it's been over 8 freakin years!

W. T. F.
Link Posted: 3/30/2017 11:53:06 AM EDT
[#29]
For me they each have a place.  the .22 does the shooting and the "air gun" leans against the front door in case I get any knocks :-)  Perfectly legal to shoot an air gun where I live.
Link Posted: 3/30/2017 12:00:20 PM EDT
[#30]
I have a Diana 34 in 22, great lil pew-er.

Got it about 5 yrs ago when 22lr was impossible.  It's more accurate than 22lr when I do my part, though I don't have much experience shooting fancy match 22lr ammo.

I got a couple targets that can be shot at inside, that trap and deflect, so I can sit on the couch and plink at stuff 10 or 12 yards away while I watch TV .  Only problem is that it freaks the dog out.

Interesting post OP.
Link Posted: 3/30/2017 7:04:54 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:


Coons take some killin'.  I tried to kill a big coon in a live trap with some Colibri quiet .22 rimfire ammo out of my Rem pump rifle at 1 foot distance.  2 head shots just upset both of us and I had to go back to a std. .22LR round to dispatch it.
View Quote
Have killed a LOT of coons with CB caps.
Link Posted: 4/1/2017 8:41:19 PM EDT
[#32]
You might be correct when talking about a "standard" air rifle, but PCP air rifles are a whole different animal.  There are some very powerful air rifles and they are very quiet.

I have PCP rifles and they are cool, but at the end of the day a 22LR has more kenetic energy.  Guy on the air rifle forums that I belong to have killed plenty of wild pigs in HI using his 25cal PCP rifles.  Of course shot placement is very critical when hunting with PCP, but it's pretty awesome knowing a 25cal air rifle can kill pigs.

I go back and forth with PCP and 22LR suppressed...I have both and both have their merits.  End of the day, I'd grab my suppressor and subsonic 22LR ammo over my PCP rifles.
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 12:48:33 PM EDT
[#33]
I think your observations stand up to Walmart-type break-action airguns, but I disagree concerning mid and high-end PCP airguns.

My PCPs can be made much quieter than .22LRs when compared footpound to footpound. Now of course my PCPs are suppressed, my .22 rimfires are not. In SHTF, suppression laws won't matter. But as where we're not in SHTF, and I do not have firearm suppressors, my airguns win out due to not having to just thru legal hoops to get them quiet.

For example, I have a 110 fpe .30 airgun that at that power level shooting 63 grain hollowpoint bullets, shoots at the same sound level as the ears measure it as my long-barreled .22LR Savage shooting CCI quiets at 40fpe. I couldn't or shouldn't been too quick to shoot a whitetail deer in the lungs with CCI Quiets. Its a brain shot or bust. Yet I can take the 110 .30 airgun with the hollowpoint bullets and cleanly kill a deer with a lung shot. So if quiet harvest is my primary objective, my .30 airgun is going to be a more versatile game-getter than my .22 LR shooting weak subsonics. And if sound is no issue, my airgun is delivering the same energy as many normal velocity .22LR loads but with a bigger bullet that will do more damage. So even there I think the airgun wins.

Concerning accuracy, I haven't yet seen a .22LR that can match my PCPs. Even my $500 Crosman/Benjamin PCPs when are on the low-mid end of quality as the airgun spectrum goes. Hole in hole in hole at 50 yards over and over again. I'm sure there are .22s that can do it. My Walmart Savage is the most accurate .22 I own over the largest span of ammo. But nothing can beat those airguns.

Weight, I agree most PCP airguns are significantly heavier because they have to carry their air with them and its not practical to carry the refill-air source with you. They aren't the guns to bugout with. PCPs are the guns to go quietly hunt game with over a 2-3 day trip then come back to your homestead. My high-powered 30 caliber can get 20 full powered shots at 80fpe or 7 at 110fpe (and more shots at less than full power), and I could double my shot count at 80fpe if I added a regulator to the air tank that would let pack more air in to the tank without changing the pressure that is released each shot. That's enough shots for a hunting trip. If I were to switch my calibers out (which I can do on my .30 by popping the barrel off and changing it with the pellet probe), I could make the gun a 60-80 shot gun at 50-60fpe at .25 caliber, which would be great for squirrel hunting or brain-shooting hogs or deer.

Concerning which is actually more practical in SHTF, its a tradeoff. I have to maintain my airgun's air source or its useless. But if I have air, I have an infinite supply of propellant and ammo (I can cast my own bullets for the airgun and could case roundball and pellet if I wanted to). No gunpowder, shells, or primer needed. With the rimfire, don't have to maintain an airsource, but you have to scavenge ammo once you run out. Seems like either way both kinds of guns are going to depend on what you can gather or maintain.

I can fill my guns with either a hand pump or an electric high pressure compressor. The compressor can either fill the gun directly or fill an air tank I can then fill the gun from. I have generators to run the compressor and spare orings and lube for my hand pump. So I've got what I need to maintain my guns a while in SHTF. And before SHTF, I've got an arsenal of quiet game-getters that can let me quietly stock up on meat within everyone knowing by business.
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 2:16:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Good write up. 

I have mitigated the noise factor on my .22LR rifle with a Surefire suppressor. 
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 5:14:29 PM EDT
[#35]
22LRs have many different bullets to be quiet if necessary, including suppressing.  I went through the pellet phase and have not touch it since acquiring a few .22 suppressors.  You can single shot a 22/45 and hold the bolt close for those rounds that will not cycle the action.  (super colibris or quiets).
Link Posted: 4/3/2017 1:55:29 AM EDT
[#36]
This is ARFCOM...  Get both?

I am a 22LR guy, but I am lucky enough to live in a location where I can shoot from my deck without a second thought.  

If I need quiet at close range I go for the compound bow.  That said I think I am going to take up shooting slingshot.    No really... 22LR is to expensive now!
Link Posted: 4/4/2017 10:18:08 PM EDT
[#37]
I have a co2 22 pellet pistol coming in the mail... with a pellet gun "suppressor".

I also have a few 22 lrs around and a handful of 22 shorts and colibris.

My preference in my back yard is an air rifle. 22s are fun and quiet, but a pellet gun is IMO safer and just as effective at short distances. I'd break out the nice, quiet single shot 22 with a short round for a larger pest like a possum or coon, but my break barrel .177 has taken a lot of house sparrows and starlings, as well as a couple rabbits and squirrels. I'd say they are 2 different tools that serve 2 different purposes.


ETA there is no $200 tax stamp on on air rifle suppressor, but it cannot mount to a real firearm. A suppressed 22lr would be an amazing pesting rifle.
Link Posted: 4/5/2017 8:23:11 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have a co2 22 pellet pistol coming in the mail... with a pellet gun "suppressor".

I also have a few 22 lrs around and a handful of 22 shorts and colibris.

My preference in my back yard is an air rifle. 22s are fun and quiet, but a pellet gun is IMO safer and just as effective at short distances. I'd break out the nice, quiet single shot 22 with a short round for a larger pest like a possum or coon, but my break barrel .177 has taken a lot of house sparrows and starlings, as well as a couple rabbits and squirrels. I'd say they are 2 different tools that serve 2 different purposes.


ETA there is no $200 tax stamp on on air rifle suppressor, but it cannot mount to a real firearm. A suppressed 22lr would be an amazing pesting rifle.
View Quote
you have to be careful with this. the ATF does deem an air rifle suppressor as a NFA item If it's not a factory attached unit. I believe they deem the air rifle "suppressors" as "noise dampeners" which allows them to skirt the edge of the law. but know people have gone to jail for building air rifle suppressors or even paint ball gun suppressors. is it stupid? yes! but I for one do not want to mess with the ATF and they can make a example of your ass at a moments whim!

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-paintball-andor-airgun-sound-suppressers-nfa-firearms
Link Posted: 4/5/2017 10:43:57 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


you have to be careful with this. the ATF does deem an air rifle suppressor as a NFA item If it's not a factory attached unit. I believe they deem the air rifle "suppressors" as "noise dampeners" which allows them to skirt the edge of the law. but know people have gone to jail for building air rifle suppressors or even paint ball gun suppressors. is it stupid? yes! but I for one do not want to mess with the ATF and they can make a example of your ass at a moments whim!

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-paintball-andor-airgun-sound-suppressers-nfa-firearms
View Quote
Yup. IIRC, there was a thread a couple years ago about a guy getting busted for building and shipping an air rifle suppressor. I don't recall all the details but what I DO recall was that if the suppressor could in any way be mounted on a firearm and reduce the db level by any amount for even one shot, it's an unlicensed NFA item. The guy got hit with multiple federal charges, including mailing it via USPS.
Link Posted: 4/5/2017 10:53:09 AM EDT
[#40]
Oh, and in relation to the thread, I have a .22 air rifle and a few thousand pellets because pellets are light and cheap, but that thing isn't particularly quiet.

Those Polymag 16gr pellets hit pretty hard though.

For quiet shooting at small targets, I think I need to practice with a slingshot more. Used to be pretty good at it as a kid, but that was a long time ago lol.


Max
Link Posted: 4/5/2017 11:00:05 AM EDT
[#41]
More in-depth discussion of Air Gun Suppressors

Personally I stay away from anything that is remotely fringe when it comes to firearm laws. A friend of mine built an AR 'pistol'.
It had cheek weld on the buffer tube, etc. It looked just like a SBR without an adjustable stock.  ie: SBR with no Tax Stamp.
= STAY AWAY to me....
Link Posted: 4/5/2017 5:27:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
More in-depth discussion of Air Gun Suppressors

Personally I stay away from anything that is remotely fringe when it comes to firearm laws. A friend of mine built an AR 'pistol'.
It had cheek weld on the buffer tube, etc. It looked just like a SBR without an adjustable stock.  ie: SBR with no Tax Stamp.
= STAY AWAY to me....
View Quote
no kidding. all these moron's on youtube is what started that. they even revised the law for the sig tac brace and the like that if you improperly use the brace (ie. shoulder it) then you are in violation of the NFA and have a SBR in the eye's of the law.
Link Posted: 4/5/2017 6:21:44 PM EDT
[#43]
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html

All the discussion on this thread about suppressors being ATF items is outdated. The guy who was busted for that was named Crooker. The Federal Courts overturned  lhis conviction and expressly ruled airgun suppressors are not ATF items. It does not matter if the airgun suppressor can be fitted to a firearm. All the court looks at is whether there is intent to use an airgun only suppressor to a firearm. Absent intent to use an airgun suppressor on a firearm, ATF has no jurisdiction over airgun suppressors. Cooker was later awarded a large sum for his wrongful conviction. The case is linked above.

You'll find that articles dated pre-Crooker opinion have not been updated for two reasons. First, some big names in the airgun community who are anti suppressor had to eat crow when Crooker held ATF has no authority over airgun only suppressors. No one likes to be proven wrong. Neither does ATF.

Second, Crooker holds that Congress is free to make airgun only suppressors ATF items thru legislation. There's many who would rather not draw attention to the fact that airgun only suppressors aren't ATF items and would just let sleeping dogs lay.

One should note that the Crooker opinion did allow for the possibility that an airgun suppressor having the same size threadings as a firearm in someone's possession might be evidence of intent to use on a firearm.

None of my airgun suppressorsnhave starndard North American threadings so they won't fit any of my firearms.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:03:51 AM EDT
[#44]
From a longevity standpoint, I have no idea how long an air rifle or pistol will still be effective into the future. I have my grandfather's Remington 510 .22lr that was made in the 1930s that still functions well enough to hit paper at 50yds. I'd expect roughly the same with similarly built modern rifles.

Granted, if you store both the .22lr and the air rifle in your swimming pool, results will be poor, but I don't have confidence that the air rifle's usefulness would span possibly four generations.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 8:21:37 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html

All the discussion on this thread about suppressors being ATF items is outdated. The guy who was busted for that was named Crooker. The Federal Courts overturned  lhis conviction and expressly ruled airgun suppressors are not ATF items. It does not matter if the airgun suppressor can be fitted to a firearm. All the court looks at is whether there is intent to use an airgun only suppressor to a firearm. Absent intent to use an airgun suppressor on a firearm, ATF has no jurisdiction over airgun suppressors. Cooker was later awarded a large sum for his wrongful conviction. The case is linked above.

You'll find that articles dated pre-Crooker opinion have not been updated for two reasons. First, some big names in the airgun community who are anti suppressor had to eat crow when Crooker held ATF has no authority over airgun only suppressors. No one likes to be proven wrong. Neither does ATF.

Second, Crooker holds that Congress is free to make airgun only suppressors ATF items thru legislation. There's many who would rather not draw attention to the fact that airgun only suppressors aren't ATF items and would just let sleeping dogs lay.

One should note that the Crooker opinion did allow for the possibility that an airgun suppressor having the same size threadings as a firearm in someone's possession might be evidence of intent to use on a firearm.

None of my airgun suppressorsnhave starndard North American threadings so they won't fit any of my firearms.
View Quote
be careful with the information you give out. The ATF is constantly revising and adding new laws. if you read the link I posted https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-paintball-andor-airgun-sound-suppressers-nfa-firearms  it clearly states that they are NFA items. it also shows that it was revised September 23, 2016. so I would trust that over a 6 year old case.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 12:31:31 PM EDT
[#46]
Good write-up.

I recently debated whether to buy a $1500 Hatsan USA .22 PCP rifle, a $1500 quad-copter, or a $1500 subwoofer.  I chose the one that moved the most air. 

I still believe a .22 LR with a can, along with a brick of ammo, is a great (maybe best) choice for a survival firearm (I'm counting airguns as firearms.)
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 5:34:44 PM EDT
[#47]
For many years I had only pellet guns because where I lived at the time it just did not make any sense to have a firearm like a .22 Perhaps air rifles and pistols will always have a special place for me because that was all I shot growing up for the most part..

I have also dispatched many a mongoose in my time with a pellet gun and those things are about the size of a squirrel but much nastier. Your average consumer pellet gun is nothing to brag about but as some others mentioned there are many more serious models. My first real one was an RWS 34. Then I got a Gamo hunter extreme but that only lasted a month or so before I took it back because it was falling apart. Traded that it for an RWS 460 magnum that I still have. I never shoot the darned thing anymore but i do keep it around just because it can come in handy. Anyone thinking of a airgun I would advise pass on the .177 and get a .22 caliber. Even though mine is .177 I have had really great luck with the beeman kodiak extra heavy pellets in that gun and accuracy can be really quite good with a good gun and the right pellet.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 7:45:04 PM EDT
[#48]
I love 22 LR Super Colibri Powderless Cartridge Primer Fired 20 Grain Bullet at 500 FPS.
I shoot critters all day long and know one knows a thing.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 7:58:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


be careful with the information you give out. The ATF is constantly revising and adding new laws. if you read the link I posted https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-paintball-andor-airgun-sound-suppressers-nfa-firearms  it clearly states that they are NFA items. it also shows that it was revised September 23, 2016. so I would trust that over a 6 year old case.
View Quote
I'm very familiar with the link you posted. Its the same stance ATF had before the Crooker case and they've never changed their stance even after being overruled. They don't prosecute people anymore for airgun suppressors because the Crooker case says they can't. But as far as they're concerned the Crooker case is wrong and they still want you to comply with their interpretation of "firearm" to include airgun suppressors. In other words they're hoping they can get you to take just the stance that you are (that you're more scared of ATF than trusting of a court opinion that overrules them). And that's your call to make.

However, it doesn't change the fact that Crooker is the law of the land. Airgun suppressors are not ATF firearms. Period. Crooker clearly states that only Congress has the authority to make them ATF firearms. ATF does not have the authority in and of itself to define them as such. And there's been no act of Congress since Crooker that has changed to include airgun suppressors in ATF's authority.

If you need further evidence, take the time to read the Crooker case line by line and compare it to ATF's opinion you posted. You'll see that the Court's opinion very openly considers and then reject's ATF's argument in the link that says that any airgun suppressor that can be fitted to a firearm makes it a firearm suppressor. The test is not whether an airgun suppressor can be fitted to a firearm. The test is whether an airgun suppressor is intended to be fitted to a firearm.

Also, there's another Crooker case from 2014 where Crooker was awarded $172k specifically on the grounds that an airgun suppressor is not an ATF item and any conviction for such is a wrongful conviction of an "innocent" man. Don't take my word for it, read it here:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/250584800/Judge-Elaine-Kaplan-s-decision-on-Michael-Crooker

After reading the second case, it will become clear that there's more to ATF not acknowledging the Crooker case than simply pride about not admitting they were wrong about the law. Crooker himself is not a nice person. He's a criminal thru and thru. ATF prosecuted him for the airgun suppressor because that was one of the only charges they could make against him at that time. Like getting Capone on tax evasion. After Crooker got convicted he filed all sorts of frivolous lawsuits against the Feds that was thorns in their side. They even brought more charges against him for mail threats involving bio weapons that they tried to use as leverage to get him to drop his suits. In the end, Crooker ended up beating the conviction for the airgun suppressor and then basically got an apology and a wad of money for his efforts, not on any of the frivolous suits he filed, but because of the airgun suppressor conviction itself. That didn't sit well with ATF, and there's no reason for them to point everyone to the Crooker case to admit their defeat at the hands of dirtbag.

Everyone can decide for themselves whether they should trust in case law or a governmental agency that the case law contradicts. I'm not giving you legal advice. I'm just telling you what the law is based on my understanding of it. I cannot say how the law applies to you personally. Take my opinion for what its worth. I'm only a state level criminal prosecutor who only works with ATF on occasion. So call your local assistant US attorney if you want the skinny on how the Crooker case affects ATF's stance. I just want you to know that its out there and there's reason to be skeptical of ATF's website.

Edited to add: Just so I'm clear, there's some solid guys with ATF that are a pleasure to work with. Its not the field agents writing the website entries. But I have no sympathy for any Washington bureaucrat that's purposely ignoring law they don't like and knowingly giving bad info to the public to advance an agenda. Someone somewhere up in that establishment gave us Fast and Furious after all.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 4:55:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nice write up,  thanks.
Have you tried .22 air rifles? I used to have one, break action. Killed some  pretty big birds and rats with that thing,  no doubt would do nicely on squirrels. Dynamite Noble used to make a heavy, pointed "magnum" .22 pellet.  That stuff was DEADLY. Man, you could sure see the difference between normal pellets and those heavier DN Mangum ones.  Never saw them again though and I remember saving up the last ones I had a kid,  saving them for special occasions. Anyway, you may want to give .22 air rifles a try.
FerFAL
View Quote
I really like my Benjamin .22 pump. It is slightly better than a pointy stick at 25 yards
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