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Posted: 11/2/2015 12:38:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2015 12:41:19 AM EST by HomeSlice]
Thanks for looking.
Does anyone here use this stuff as their choice for stored fuel for generators? I've has a few conversations recently with folks much more knowledgable then me re: small engines, with the thought originally stoked by a close relative.

The AV100-LL commands about a $1.50/gal premium over normal ethanol 87. That'd be a lot if I was running in a daily driver, but for 20-25 gal stored for a year or two it's not such a big deal.

I made a trip out to the local small airport today and got 5 gallons to test in the following devices: Honda EU2000i, Troy-bolt 5500, Champion 7/9k, stihl chainsaws and weed eater, Honda pressure washer, and a Mercury 9.8 hp outboard I bought new in the mid 80s.

I'm interested specifically in any damage that may be caused by lead or higher temps, changes in configuration such as spark plug gaps, and maintenance that would be extra, or more/less frequent, etc. and of course performance.

My local sources tell me that this is the best gasoline that can be found anymore, except maybe some racing fuels. I'm trying to figure out how the "best" vs average fuel will make a measurable difference with my suite of small engines. My normal MO for LTS of gasoline is sealed national cans with no "preservatives" added. Life expectancy 3-5 years stored in a barn in typical Indiana 4 season weather.

Please share your experiences and opinions.

ETA: please also share any useful ways you can think of to compare these fuels that would produce a meaningful result.
Link Posted: 11/2/2015 12:52:03 AM EST
I have this regularly available and don't see any reason to use it.

It does have lead in small amounts and I have heard the valves of small engines like some lead and I've run it in Briggs engines in tugs OK.

Link Posted: 11/2/2015 1:04:13 AM EST
You sound less than impressed. Did you perform any real "A/B" testing?
Link Posted: 11/2/2015 1:10:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2015 1:29:15 AM EST by EXPY37]
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Originally Posted By HomeSlice:
You sound less than impressed. Did you perform any real "A/B" testing?
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They both work...

I wasn't any more impressed than the regular old alcohol laced fuel from the gas station.

I've even bought that to put in them.

Can't tell any difference.

I've been running tugs for decades ---and will say the OLD GAS that left a lot of crap behind when it evaporated---- THAT was a reason to run Aviation gas. Especially when the tugs might not be started for long periods of time.

Those days are over thank God.


We have tugs, Honda gennies, post hole digger, chain saws, motorcycles, ATV's, Argo, etc, etc, and I always run regular old alcohol laced fuel.

Some stored for many years [properly] No snake oil...

No Issues.


If I wanted to run 100LL it would be as easy as buying the regular stuff, just more costly...


I think some folks get too nutty and worked up over this as we see repeatedly, and have such little technical knowledge about much of anything [just look at some of the posts in the water thread for gosh sakes], except irrational beliefs in old gasoline wives' tales handed down from one prepper to another...


With their lack of comprehension, lack of knowledge, and closed minds [and without Netflix and their social media], how some expect to survive and prosper in a real world SHTF is beyond me...


All this said, you can let a plane sit for years with 100LL and it will start right up and I have no issue flying them. Done it from time to time.



Link Posted: 11/2/2015 1:28:55 AM EST
I dont think I'm being nutty or worked up about it, though I did buy some to test.

Total waste of time? Meh, then I'm out about $8 -- oh well.

Any tests you would recommend that I run?

Link Posted: 11/2/2015 1:30:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2015 1:42:16 AM EST by EXPY37]
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Originally Posted By HomeSlice:
I dont think I'm being nutty or worked up about it, though I did buy some to test.


Total waste of time? Meh, then I'm out about $8 -- oh well.


Any tests you would recommend that I run?


View Quote



No, because your sample is too small to be meaningful. Just don't use a lot of it with something with a CAT. They say ---it will damage them and maybe O2 sensors as well... No sense finding out...

Try it in something and I think you will see little difference.

And I would NEVER consider you nutty Slice... To the contrary...

Some others are a different story...




Link Posted: 11/2/2015 9:37:35 AM EST
Personally I wouldn't store a fuel that I can only use in small engines. I haven't used avgas but I'm sure it would run fine in small engines. Of course, ethanol gas runs fine in my small engines too and lasts just fine.

You should never run avgas in a modern vehicle because the lead will destroy the O2 sensors and mess up the catalytic converter.

I'm sure it'll work fine but I see no reason to spend the extra money.
Link Posted: 11/2/2015 11:09:26 AM EST
man oh man I hate to step off into this.......

I have been using 100LL (avgas) in small engines for years.

The first priority in storing gasoline is doing it properly. Safety issues notwithstanding, the only way to store gas long term is in a metal, unvented can. Anything else will not work. Once you get a handle on that, you can explore the esoterics of using 100LL.

The advantages ---

It contains NO water - by law.
It contains no ethanol - which attracts water.

Water cause phase separation in gasoline.

When it evaporates (which it does more slowly than regular mogas) it leaves no residue ( gum ) behind.

I use it as the end of season gas in mowers, weedeaters, such as that that will be put away for months with no use. Same same for the Bobcat welder and multiple generators. The last run of these more expensive engines is always 100LL so that is what remains in the tank during periods of inactivity.
Link Posted: 11/2/2015 11:17:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2015 11:18:48 AM EST by forager]
As STX45 says, correct storage is the key. AVGAS will last much longer in proper storage than regular automotive gas. There will not be any benefit to running it in a generator or mower other than the fact you can leave it in the tank longer.

I buy leaded Sunoco race fuel for my 1970 car because it does not get driven a lot and it takes leaded gas anyway... I like fact I don't have to worry about my tank rusting while its parked.
Link Posted: 11/2/2015 2:25:50 PM EST

Thanks guys. We store it in sealed nato cans, and our cars are both diesel (other than my frankenjeep).

I wasn't expecting a lot, but I did buy it as an experiment because I'm a little propeller-headish.

Link Posted: 11/2/2015 2:43:19 PM EST
In a pinch, you could, but that stuff is costly. It would be cheaper to buy automotive reg gas and throw in some preservatives from Wall-Mart, Pep Boys etc.
Link Posted: 11/2/2015 3:16:28 PM EST
its great and will last a long time has a ton of lead and aircooled stuff loves led for the valves. will not absorb water as it has no ethanol it being 100 octain is a myth as it was rated using a different formula i add some boatgas to my genny to get some extra hp to start large motors like ac and pumps .65% 100 LL ,35% boatgas
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 7:58:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2015 8:00:21 AM EST by Blackoperations]
what octane is AV gas? Too high an octane will cause power loss (in low compression motors).....
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 9:02:36 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Blackoperations:
what octane is AV gas? Too high an octane will cause power loss (in low compression motors).....
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100 Octane
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 9:43:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2015 9:45:05 AM EST by jlficken]
I run 100LL in all of my small engines except for the lawn mowers since they can sit for 6 months with non-ethanol fuel just fine.

I just go out to the airport and fill up my gas cans with 100LL when needed. I have been using it for over 7 years now with no issues in my generator, snow blower, chainsaws, weed eater, etc. and see no reason to change.

A former friend of mine is in the airplane restoration business and he uses 100LL in all of his small engines and has for 30+ years. The shelf live of 100LL is at least a decade with reports of no noticeable deterioration after over 15 years in sealed tanks.
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 2:09:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By HomeSlice:

100 Octane
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Originally Posted By HomeSlice:
Originally Posted By Blackoperations:
what octane is AV gas? Too high an octane will cause power loss (in low compression motors).....

100 Octane

You'll be fine. The power loss due to too high of an octane rating is a small price to pay for added detonation/pre-ignition protection not to mention the storage issues with mogas.
When the alcohol in mogas becomes saturated with water it goes into phase separation (as mentioned above) and settles to the bottom of the tank. This solution is acidic and will corrode the fuel system rapidly.
This applies to storing mogas in an unsealed container like a boat fuel tank which I deal with on a daily basis.
I've always been against the Sta-Bil and other additives, but this is most likely due to the fact I see mostly unsealed fuel systems and bad/contaminated fuel issues alot in boats.
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 3:04:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Blackoperations: what octane is AV gas? Too high an octane will cause power loss (in low compression motors).....
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Never heard that before. How so?
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 8:09:37 PM EST
I've been thinking about doing the same thing OP.

I store both gas and diesel. Most of the gas ends up getting run through small engines.
One or two year old gas runs fine in something like a car or truck.
But I've had issues with small engines, they seem a bit more temperamental.
I switched over to storing Super for them but thinking about trying Av Gas.

Link Posted: 11/3/2015 8:56:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KB7DX:

You'll be fine. The power loss due to too high of an octane rating is a small price to pay for added detonation/pre-ignition protection not to mention the storage issues with mogas.
When the alcohol in mogas becomes saturated with water it goes into phase separation (as mentioned above) and settles to the bottom of the tank. This solution is acidic and will corrode the fuel system rapidly.
This applies to storing mogas in an unsealed container like a boat fuel tank which I deal with on a daily basis.
I've always been against the Sta-Bil and other additives, but this is most likely due to the fact I see mostly unsealed fuel systems and bad/contaminated fuel issues alot in boats.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KB7DX:
Originally Posted By HomeSlice:
Originally Posted By Blackoperations:
what octane is AV gas? Too high an octane will cause power loss (in low compression motors).....

100 Octane

You'll be fine. The power loss due to too high of an octane rating is a small price to pay for added detonation/pre-ignition protection not to mention the storage issues with mogas.
When the alcohol in mogas becomes saturated with water it goes into phase separation (as mentioned above) and settles to the bottom of the tank. This solution is acidic and will corrode the fuel system rapidly.
This applies to storing mogas in an unsealed container like a boat fuel tank which I deal with on a daily basis.
I've always been against the Sta-Bil and other additives, but this is most likely due to the fact I see mostly unsealed fuel systems and bad/contaminated fuel issues alot in boats.

Water in avgas also will stay separated if left alone. In my life, I have removed quite a bit of water from the sumps during preflight. If allowed to sit undisturbed in the aircraft for a time, the water in the fuel will precipitate and settle to the low drain point (the sump.) Not sure about the corrosive affect from that separated water. I would need to see some data supporting that idea.
Link Posted: 11/4/2015 9:17:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


Never heard that before. How so?
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By Blackoperations: what octane is AV gas? Too high an octane will cause power loss (in low compression motors).....


Never heard that before. How so?

Contrary to popular belief, Octane is the rating given to RESIST ignition...The higher the octane rating, the slower and colder the fuel burns. If you run too much octane in your engine, it won't run very well because the burn is way too slow. If the octane is too high, the piston might already be at bottom dead center (BDC) and the fuel might still be burning. Higher octane fuel is only beneficial in high compression motors.
Link Posted: 11/4/2015 11:01:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Blackoperations:

Contrary to popular belief, Octane is the rating given to RESIST ignition...The higher the octane rating, the slower and colder the fuel burns. If you run too much octane in your engine, it won't run very well because the burn is way too slow. If the octane is too high, the piston might already be at bottom dead center (BDC) and the fuel might still be burning. Higher octane fuel is only beneficial in high compression motors.
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At what point does it begin to cause damage?
Link Posted: 11/5/2015 8:28:31 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HomeSlice:

At what point does it begin to cause damage?
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Originally Posted By HomeSlice:
Originally Posted By Blackoperations:

Contrary to popular belief, Octane is the rating given to RESIST ignition...The higher the octane rating, the slower and colder the fuel burns. If you run too much octane in your engine, it won't run very well because the burn is way too slow. If the octane is too high, the piston might already be at bottom dead center (BDC) and the fuel might still be burning. Higher octane fuel is only beneficial in high compression motors.

At what point does it begin to cause damage?

I dont think it will, performance will suffer.
Link Posted: 11/5/2015 8:58:22 AM EST
Like any other GD question, the answer is "it depends". I use 100LL in everything that doesn't have have a converter. I use it in my Hussy mower, my chipper, my chainsaws (with oil), my weedwacker (with oil). my. pressure washer, my Case skidsteer, my plate compacter, and my jumping jack. Oh, yeah, and the airplane. Are you going to start your generator every month without fail? If so, I think 100LL is a waste. Will it sit around for a few months of good weather? Then I would do it. It's the closest to the old time gas small engines were designed for. Planes sit for weeks or months of inactivity. The tubing, which will include some rubber compound tubing or fittings, rarely go bad because of exposure to the fuel. They may deteriorate, but they would have deteriorated at about the same rate if they sat on a dealer's shelf in a plastic bag.

I have never heard of an aviation accident caused by bad fuel. Yes, water gets in the gas, and foreign material can wind up in tanks and block plumbing, but I've never heard of a problem caused by the degradation of the fuel itself. Most of the fuel-related aviation accidents are caused when it stops flowing.

100LL does have lead in it, and a lot of it. It has four times the lead of the gas that it replaced. In our feel good world, they addressed that issue by calling it 100 Octane Low Lead. It may foul spark plugs, especially if the plugs are lower in the combustion chamber. The lower plugs in horizontal opposed engines often wind up with little lead BBs surrounding the electrode. If that's a problem, add a little tricresyl phosphate to the gas, and it will be fine.
Link Posted: 11/5/2015 2:47:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/5/2015 2:48:00 PM EST by SR712]
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Originally Posted By Sundowner08L:
I have never heard of an aviation accident caused by bad fuel. Yes, water gets in the gas, and foreign material can wind up in tanks and block plumbing, but I've never heard of a problem caused by the degradation of the fuel itself. Most of the fuel-related aviation accidents are caused when it stops flowing.
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Ummmm. no. Water contaminated fuel will cause an accident. We spend a lot of attention during training and every flight getting the water out of our tanks.

FAA

Another one

There are many ways water can kill you in aircraft fuel. Water sits on the bottom of the tank, gets sucked up when you go full power on takeoff. Water doesn't burn, even though it technically is still flowing. Engine stops. I hope you have a clear field ahead. Water will also turn solid at subzero cruise altitudes and block the fuel lines. Engine stops. So, yes, it is a major concern in certain parts of general aviation. I read about several accidents every month from the NTSB concerning water contaminated fuel.

Here is a fun little site that tries to deal with this issue.

Fuel Awareness Pamphlet, its a big deal in aviation.
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