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Posted: 5/28/2010 7:44:00 PM EDT
Mr. Larue, I bought a Stealth 18" upper about a year ago and have been very happy with it except for one recurring issue. The accuracy seems excellent with the exception of I always get a first round flyer out of gun on EACH string. I started off shooting Black hills 77 grn SMK Blue box and the accuracy was excellent except for the 1st shot flyer problem. It manifested as a single shot flyer about 1-1.5 inches at 6 o'clock while the next four grouped very nicely at the POA. I kinda wrote off the flyer issue as shooter error, but as I improved and was able to shoot other precision rifles well without this flyer issue - I started to wonder if it really WAS me.
I had kinda put the gun on the shelf for a few months while I concentrated on my Rem 700 precison gun. But once I sorted that out, I started back in on working up reloads for the Stealth and noticed the 1st shot flyer issue was back with a vengence. No matter the load, I was always seeing the 1st shot low about 1.5" and the other 4 grouping about .6" together. I finally had 3 other extremely good competitive shooters try to replicate the issue and without fail all shot the same pattern. Thinking that maybe my reloads were the issue, I've been attempting to get my hands on some more Black Hills blue box to try to again relicate the problem. Being unable to find BHs, I instead purchased some Silver State Armory Mk 262 ammo to try to see if that would eliminate a potential source of error. I did see the same problem but instead with the SSA 5.56 ammo - the 1st shot was 1-1.5" high and the rest grouped nicely at POA. If I were to overlay the targets from today on top of each other - the flyers would be almost all on top of each other, so its not a random flyer. As far as how the 1st round is chambered or whether its a cold or hot bore - it seems to not matter. I get it on a clean/cold bore. I get it on a hot barrel when the next 5 shot string is maybe a minute after the last string. It happens if I let the bolt slam home using the bolt release paddle, holding the charging handle 1/3 of the way and then letting it go and I've even tried just easing the BCG forward and then using the Fwd assist to get it into battery to fire. All result in a 1st shot flyer. I'm at my wits end here. I love the Stealth upper as well as all my other Larue products I own. If you discount the 1st round flyer - the accuracy is great. But there's gotta be something going on if it happens with different shooters, different factory match and reloaded ammo. Can you help me troubleshoot what's going on? Should I send it back to have you guys look at it? With few exceptions, its been doing this from the beginning. I can provide a history of target pics if it helps. And FYI - its on an LMT lower with a 2-stage match trigger. I even swapped lowers with a guy who has an SPR with an 18" Denny's upper almost identical to the Stealth. He is VERY accurate with his gun and he shot my upper on his lower and saw the same exact pattern I've been describing. The only common denominator is if I wait more than about 30-45 sec between shots, the next shot out after the pause is always a flyer in the same spot. |
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Eagle,
Try loading 1st round by hand ... meaning place a single round in the chamber, then pull the mag and drop bolt on top of it, followed by replacing the mag. Lemme know. ML |
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Quoted: Eagle, Try loading 1st round by hand ... meaning place a single round in the chamber, then pull the mag and drop bolt on top of it, followed by replacing the mag. Lemme know. ML OK, will do. I assume you mean to shoot the rest of the mag normally, correct? And "drop the bolt" meaning from the bolt release and letting it slam closed or with the charging handle and holding it longer so the drop force is less? I just want to make sure I duplicate what you want. I've tried so many things but single loading the round by hand rather than stripping from the mag is about the only thing I haven't tried. If for some reason this "fixes" the accuracy and the 1st round goes into the same group as the rest - what is likely the culprit? Thanks! |
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Consider loading each round by hand and firing a group. (Like a single shot bolt action)
Also after loading a round, have you tried pulling it to check for damage? |
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Quoted: Consider loading each round by hand and firing a group. (Like a single shot bolt action) Also after loading a round, have you tried pulling it to check for damage? I may try that as well just to see. I thought it might be a case of bullet setback with my reloads and maybe not enough neck tension - because it was more pronounced than the factory loads. But the last factory ammo I just tried (the SSA Mk262) was crimped with a cannelure. So not sure if I'm getting setback with that. I think I'll go chamber a few rounds and measure with my calipers to see if anything is going on.... |
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My 18" Stealth does the same thing. Im going to try some of these suggestions.
Thanks. |
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Trying different magazines can be useful as well. I have traced similar problems in other semi autos to the magazines used.
- rck |
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Quoted:
Trying different magazines can be useful as well. I have traced similar problems in other semi autos to the magazines used. - rck Good tip, thanks. |
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Let me start this post by saying I like Larue products, own them, use them and I'm not trying to start a pissing match.
Mark, is there ANY way an LT railed forend or gas block could be installed improperly to cause this type of problem? A buddy of mine has the same problem and these two parts are the only thing in common with the stealth. Again, not picking a fight, just wondering if we screwed something up installing. |
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Quoted:
Let me start this post by saying I like Larue products, own them, use them and I'm not trying to start a pissing match. Mark, is there ANY way an LT railed forend or gas block could be installed improperly to cause this type of problem? A buddy of mine has the same problem and these two parts are the only thing in common with the stealth. Again, not picking a fight, just wondering if we screwed something up installing. Not that I am aware of ... but, hey, hardly a day goes by that I don't learn something new. ETA - I do know it's a habit of some competitive shooters to burn the first round - they must have their reasons. Another problem is we get an accurate rifle that stacks them after that first round, and it shows when compared to one that flings them everywhere, where no one would notice the first round seemingly separated from the rest. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Let me start this post by saying I like Larue products, own them, use them and I'm not trying to start a pissing match. Mark, is there ANY way an LT railed forend or gas block could be installed improperly to cause this type of problem? A buddy of mine has the same problem and these two parts are the only thing in common with the stealth. Again, not picking a fight, just wondering if we screwed something up installing. Not that I am aware of ... but, hey, hardly a day goes by that I don't learn something new. ETA - I do know it's a habit of some competitive shooters to burn the first round - they must have their reasons. Another problem is we get an accurate rifle that stacks them after that first round, and it shows when compared to one that flings them everywhere, where no one would notice the first round seemingly separated from the rest. Thank you, Sir. Just trying to rule out any/all reasons. His throws the first round 5-6" low....after that, its all good. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let me start this post by saying I like Larue products, own them, use them and I'm not trying to start a pissing match. Mark, is there ANY way an LT railed forend or gas block could be installed improperly to cause this type of problem? A buddy of mine has the same problem and these two parts are the only thing in common with the stealth. Again, not picking a fight, just wondering if we screwed something up installing. Not that I am aware of ... but, hey, hardly a day goes by that I don't learn something new. ETA - I do know it's a habit of some competitive shooters to burn the first round - they must have their reasons. Another problem is we get an accurate rifle that stacks them after that first round, and it shows when compared to one that flings them everywhere, where no one would notice the first round seemingly separated from the rest. Thank you, Sir. Just trying to rule out any/all reasons. His throws the first round 5-6" low....after that, its all good. 5" - 6" low seems out of bounds. We took back a rifle a few weeks back ... turns out the optic wasn't fastened on correctly ... take a good long look at all the links in the chain. |
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Quoted:
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Quoted:
Let me start this post by saying I like Larue products, own them, use them and I'm not trying to start a pissing match. Mark, is there ANY way an LT railed forend or gas block could be installed improperly to cause this type of problem? A buddy of mine has the same problem and these two parts are the only thing in common with the stealth. Again, not picking a fight, just wondering if we screwed something up installing. Not that I am aware of ... but, hey, hardly a day goes by that I don't learn something new. ETA - I do know it's a habit of some competitive shooters to burn the first round - they must have their reasons. Another problem is we get an accurate rifle that stacks them after that first round, and it shows when compared to one that flings them everywhere, where no one would notice the first round seemingly separated from the rest. Thank you, Sir. Just trying to rule out any/all reasons. His throws the first round 5-6" low....after that, its all good. 5" - 6" low seems out of bounds. We took back a rifle a few weeks back ... turns out the optic wasn't fastened on correctly ... take a good long look at all the links in the chain. yeah, its a real pisser....never seen a cold bore shot that low. been thru all the steps including those mentioned above. Dunno. He's off to a far away land for awhile so it'll have to wait. |
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If you only have one Colt 20 I would definitely try a few other magazines. Brownells makes a wonderful aluminum 20 that feeds the 77s nicely for me. Only $18 ea.
No magpuls with that bullet as I load max OAL. - RCK |
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Quoted: If you only have one Colt 20 I would definitely try a few other magazines. Brownells makes a wonderful aluminum 20 that feeds the 77s nicely for me. Only $18 ea. No magpuls with that bullet as I load max OAL. - RCK I'll see if I can try some different mags, but can anyone explain how a mag affects accuracy once the bullet is chambered? I'm not saying it can't... but Something is just not computing. |
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I changed powder in an AR that was giving me the same problem. My rifle shot first round 2 in. low in cold weather and just fine in hot weather. Changed from VV133 to Varget. All suggestion led me to think the mags were the problem in my case. Found out from an old gunsmith that these type rifles likes hot loads. Hope this helps.
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The explanation given to me some years ago is that the first round can chamber differently than the succeeding ones due to more spring tension etc. I have seen it personally in more than one weapon so I believe it, but have never spent the resources to do a proper study on it.
I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I do agree that it is a problem that is masked by the quality of most weapons and their users. The fact that you are demonstrating the problem repeatably tells me you are a darn good shot and using a darn good weapon. You have eliminated the ammo variable, so I have to follow the food chain back to the magazine. I don't think you mentioned how old your Colt mag is, but if it has seen a lot of use the feed lips are likely smoothed out enough, but the spring may be weak. If it does turn out to be a magazine issue, a dedicated and numbered set of magazines to go with that upper will be a good step forward to gaining the consistency it is mechanically capable of. As I mentioned in my other post last night, the sheer consistency of the Stealth continues to amaze me. I have had any number of 'better' rifles, but this puppy seems to be immune to weather, temp, my general ineptitude, you name it. - RCK |
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Good points!
The 77 Sierra does like to be pushed hard. I have had good results with Varget as well as the Hodgden and IMR 4895s. Settled on the IMR-4895 as it was tinge more consistent. -RCK |
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You might want to get something better than the SSA 77g ammo. You keep refering it is Mk262 which it is not. I've read several reviews of it and most are getting 1.25-1.5moa out of it. My 18" stealth loves the hornady 75gr match and fiocchi 77gr smk. It also likes the real MK262s but they are too hard to come by. I'm getting .5 moa with the hornadys.
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Quoted:
You might want to get something better than the SSA 77g ammo. You keep refering it is Mk262 which it is not. I've read several reviews of it and most are getting 1.25-1.5moa out of it. My 18" stealth loves the hornady 75gr match and fiocchi 77gr smk. It also likes the real MK262s but they are too hard to come by. I'm getting .5 moa with the hornadys. Thanks Ander, I missed that SSA Mk262. We somehow ended up with some of that ... ironic they name it after a .mil round known for accuracy. |
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Quoted: You might want to get something better than the SSA 77g ammo. You keep refering it is Mk262 which it is not. I've read several reviews of it and most are getting 1.25-1.5moa out of it. My 18" stealth loves the hornady 75gr match and fiocchi 77gr smk. It also likes the real MK262s but they are too hard to come by. I'm getting .5 moa with the hornadys. That's true, the SSA is not a true Mk 262. However, I thought the previous reviews showed it as a pretty hot actual 5.56 pressure round. Regardless, If you look at the pics I posted, it IS actually pretty accurate. With the exception of the consistant flyer, the remaining 4 are averaging around 3/4". Those grides are 1/2" squares. But regardless, this issue has been very consistant across several ammo types. I've shot .55" groups with Black Hills .223 77gr loads and it still exhibits almost the exact same pattern. I had a buddy who reloads for his Denny's 18" upper and he is a far better shooter than I am and his pet 77grn loads which are easily 1/2 MOA shot the EXACT same pattern I'm describing with his loads through my stealth, him behind the trigger and using his lower. The issue still replicates regardless of the ammo or the shooter. One thing I HAVE noticed is that the issue is most pronounced with the 77SMK bullets. I still see it to some degree with lighter bullets, but have never really shot a match quality lighter bullet load that shows the flyer and tight group pattern like the 77 grn loads do. So yes, there are obviously more accurate loads out there - but the issue isn't the overall accuracy. I feel the upper is VERY accurate if you discount the 1st round out of the mag. THAT is the issue I'm struggling with. |
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Quoted: The explanation given to me some years ago is that the first round can chamber differently than the succeeding ones due to more spring tension etc. I have seen it personally in more than one weapon so I believe it, but have never spent the resources to do a proper study on it. I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I do agree that it is a problem that is masked by the quality of most weapons and their users. The fact that you are demonstrating the problem repeatably tells me you are a darn good shot and using a darn good weapon. You have eliminated the ammo variable, so I have to follow the food chain back to the magazine. I don't think you mentioned how old your Colt mag is, but if it has seen a lot of use the feed lips are likely smoothed out enough, but the spring may be weak. If it does turn out to be a magazine issue, a dedicated and numbered set of magazines to go with that upper will be a good step forward to gaining the consistency it is mechanically capable of. As I mentioned in my other post last night, the sheer consistency of the Stealth continues to amaze me. I have had any number of 'better' rifles, but this puppy seems to be immune to weather, temp, my general ineptitude, you name it. - RCK RCK, Thanks for the explanation. I bought the colt 20 rnd mag as soon as the upper arrived - so its only about a year old too and is only used with this rifle. Its possible its bad, I'll have to try another one and see. It would be nice if that was the issue. I don't recall for sure though, but the more I think of it.... when I had my friend shoot my upper on his lower with his precision reloads - Its likely he used his own mag as well. But I can't say for sure so I guess I'm going to have to try a different one. Did someone say Pmags won't work on normal 77grn loads? Or was it just if you reload them longer than spec? Because I was thinking of picking up a Pmag 20 rounder anyway. |
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I use a 20rd pmag for my benchwork. I ran fiocchi 77smk, and BH MK262s without a problem along with a variety of other heavier grain otm ammo.
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1/2" grid makes the groups look better you might try loading the mag full. Shoot 4, drop the mag halfway out so the bolt locks back on next round, shoot #5, quickly reinsert mag and then see if it's a flier.
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don't know if it would matter but if the thought is that the mag might be the issue, what about loading 6 rounds in the mag, chamber the first and then manually eject the first round and fire the remaining five. you might also try loading up 20 rounds and fire four 5 shot groups and see if there are any differences in the groups.
just my $.02 i wish you well. my stealth upper has allowed me to shoot the tightest groups of my life. we'll see if that continues now that it's mated to a noveske lower ETA: my first page ownage and i had to edit to note it. i'm such a loser |
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Hey J,
I've got a few different brands of 20 rounders including a bunch of 20rd Pmags. Let me know if you want to try them. Joe |
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Quoted: Will do. I've probably used up all my kitchen passes to the range for a while this weekend but I'll probably take you up on it. I need some anyway, so I might pick up a 20rnd Pmag from NFA this week just to have.Hey J, I've got a few different brands of 20 rounders including a bunch of 20rd Pmags. Let me know if you want to try them. Joe |
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A stupid question, but have you "blown off" the first round down-range into the berm, and then fired your 5-shot group? It never fails for me that one of my five shots is odd (not a flier, just anti-social with the other shots), regardless of where in the mag stack that they are. Best group with a stealth was .562 with a 5 shot group, but with 4 of those shots it would have put me in the .375 range. Just a thought, not doubting your abilities at all.
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I'm wodering if his barrel has cooled off enough for the flier since he says it's the first in every mag. Since it sounds like he only has one 20rd mag, he has to reload it between sets. That's a good couple minutes to get back situated.
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Quoted: A stupid question, but have you "blown off" the first round down-range into the berm, and then fired your 5-shot group? It never fails for me that one of my five shots is odd (not a flier, just anti-social with the other shots), regardless of where in the mag stack that they are. Best group with a stealth was .562 with a 5 shot group, but with 4 of those shots it would have put me in the .375 range. Just a thought, not doubting your abilities at all. Yes, actually I have. And the remaining 5 shots are grouped nicely together - about .6 or less if I do my part. The issue seems completely related to the 1st round in the mag, and seems less an issue of barrel temp. When I manually loaded the 1st round - it didn't appear as noticeable. |
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Quoted: I'm wodering if his barrel has cooled off enough for the flier since he says it's the first in every mag. Since it sounds like he only has one 20rd mag, he has to reload it between sets. That's a good couple minutes to get back situated. I thought that too, but I tried an experiment where I shot another 5 shot string immediately after the previous (maybe a max of 30-45 sec to load the mag) and the issue still repeated. There is no way the gun was going to cool off enough in that short amount of time to make a difference. Conversely, I did another string experiment where I waited about 2-3 min between each shot to try to let it cool down between shots and it still didn't change. IMHO, it doesn't appear to be a heating issue based on all the permutations I've tried. |
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Can't say you are doing due diligence trying to pinpoint the issue. I'd try a new mag or a new BCG next.
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20 Rd P Mags, don't work for me with the Sierra 77s, at least at the OAL I use. But then again I developed the load around GI mags.
Which reminds me.... With some GI 20s I have had to take a file to them in order to drop the front edge a bit so the bullets don't drag on it on the way to the chamber. - RCK |
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I haven't tried and hand loaded 77smks in my pmag, just the fiocchi and bh mk262 seconds. Both of which worked fine.
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First: Just out of curiosity, how did you verify that the 1st round was set back and the others weren't? I'm not a handloader, and have a rudimentary understanding of the topic. I don't get how, short of measuring OAL before loading, then removing the bullet after it has chambered, you accomplished this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you did it, just looking for an explanation of how.
Second: It sounds like you may have found a variable with the setback on the manually fed round. It's my understanding that the Wylde chamber LT uses has a shorter throat. Maybe the throat on your particular barrel wasn't reamed out quite far enough by a twist or two (blasphemy, I am aware, but even the best have an occasional "oops") and the bullet is contacting it when manually fed. It's my understanding (though I may be misinformed; again, I'm no expert) that manually loading the first round by either dropping a locked-back bolt or pulling the CH back and releasing it exerts more forward force on the bolt, and consequently the cartridge than the firing cycle. Just wondering if maybe having the chamber inspected for proper dimensions might be appropriate? Edit: Disregard my first question; I should have read for content. |
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Quoted: First: Just out of curiosity, how did you verify that the 1st round was set back and the others weren't? I'm not a handloader, and have a rudimentary understanding of the topic. I don't get how, short of measuring OAL before loading, then removing the bullet after it has chambered, you accomplished this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you did it, just looking for an explanation of how. Yes, I did exactly that... measured the round with digital calipers before loading the round, chambered it and then pulled it and measured again. After I shot that measured round, I burned it into the berm so I could see if the next round that got picked up via normal cycling had any set back. So I measured the 2nd round in the mag before loading it, Once it chambered via normal cycle - I then pulled it and remeasued. No setback. I then put another throw-away round that I also burned on top of the mag so the #2 round would get picked up in the normal cycle so I could see if it grouped well and it did. Second: It sounds like you may have found a variable with the setback on the manually fed round. It's my understanding that the Wylde chamber LT uses has a shorter throat. Maybe the throat on your particular barrel wasn't reamed out quite far enough by a twist or two (blasphemy, I am aware, but even the best have an occasional "oops") and the bullet is contacting it when manually fed. It's my understanding (though I may be misinformed; again, I'm no expert) that manually loading the first round by either dropping a locked-back bolt or pulling the CH back and releasing exerts more forward force on the bolt, and consequently the cartridge. Just wondering if maybe having the chamber inspected for proper dimensions might be appropriate? Mmmm.... you may be onto something there. |
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Out of curiosity, have you loaded up 10 into your mag, shot one 5 shot group, then immediately shot another? I think that would eliminate the possibility of the barrel cooling off between groups.
If you're only shooting 5 (or now 3) shot strings, I could see where 30-45 seconds would be enough to cool the barrel off enough for a POI change. |
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Quoted: Out of curiosity, have you loaded up 10 into your mag, shot one 5 shot group, then immediately shot another? I think that would eliminate the possibility of the barrel cooling off between groups. If you're only shooting 5 (or now 3) shot strings, I could see where 30-45 seconds would be enough to cool the barrel off enough for a POI change. I don't think so mainly because I tried shooting two 5-shot groups back to back. Not quite as fast as loading up 10 in a mag but the barrel was very hot to the touch. My point is I see the same thing whether its a true cold bore 1st shot of the day or a hot barrel after many shots. My question is: Do all stealth uppers react the same way? If so fine, but if not (and I don't think they all do from what others have said) then something is not right. |
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You wrote that you measured the first "manually-loaded" round to be .002" shorter after chambering versus the automatically-chambered rounds. Have you considered shooting a group of all "manually-chambered" rounds? How are you holding your tongue?
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Tag. Nearly all of my AR's have this same issue. I just figured I sucked at shooting groups.
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J,
At this point. I'd be on the phone with someone at LaRue. In my experience, they are always willing to support their hardware. You'll probably have to ship it in, but I'm certain they'll send you back an upper without problems. Joe |
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Yepp as said above, cant hurt to give them a call and tell them all that you've done to try and correct the problem. They might have a couple more things for you to try, if they cant help you troubleshoot anymore, then i'd bet they'll have you send the rifle in so they can figure out the problem.
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Alfred was burning up the wires trying to help the OP - ERD out today...
Expect the best outcome as always, thanks LaRue. |
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Quoted: Alfred was burning up the wires trying to help the OP - ERD out today... Expect the best outcome as always, thanks LaRue. Yep, talked to Alfred from LT today and he was awesome to deal with! Plan is to get the rifle in the mail tomorrow and they will troubleshoot and fix as necessary. Larue was unable to contact me by phone (they tried) because I changed cell #'s since my last order. So instead of just giving up and waiting on me to call them, they called 308Sako so he could get a message to me to call Larue ASAP. Ladies and gentlemen, THAT is customer service! I have no doubt the outcome will be nothing but good. |
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Have you tried forward assist on the first round? Maybe there is a tiny bit of variance between hitting the bolt release and the rifle actually cycling? I know the AR won't fire out of battery, but maybe there is battery and slammed forward battery? Possibly a slightly weak buffer spring?
Just some guesses from an amateur, but I have not had this problem with my 18" stealth. |
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