User Panel
Quoted:
@871JZ Pics via Jj of the port door side: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181221_205934-780751.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181221_205904-780753.jpg View Quote Quoted:
It's likely not going to be solved here man . At least it's out in the open, guys will have to form their own opinions/make their own decisions. Better than flying blind. View Quote |
|
This whole thing doesn't make sense. Also weird that the seller won't specifically state they're Colt uppers, just that they are "genuine DoD contract uppers", even though it's obvious they're supposed to be Colt uppers, unless there's some other "DoD contractor" that marks their uppers identically to Colt. Just keeps making less and less sense. View Quote INtegrity arms is a legitimate vendor who does not play games. |
|
Quoted:
Mila Kunis and THICC Hilary Duff. Those are my 2 "Colt's" View Quote Here ya go, man. Attached File |
|
Quoted:
@MILSPEC556 Here ya go, man. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/363550/20181221_220625_jpg-780853.JPG View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Mila Kunis and THICC Hilary Duff. Those are my 2 "Colt's" Here ya go, man. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/363550/20181221_220625_jpg-780853.JPG Ill be in my bunk. For a while.... |
|
Quoted:
Lawd Hammercy! Ill be in my bunk. For a while.... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Mila Kunis and THICC Hilary Duff. Those are my 2 "Colt's" Here ya go, man. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/363550/20181221_220625_jpg-780853.JPG Ill be in my bunk. For a while.... I could post better pics for you, but this isn't GD. |
|
very nice.
i am going to make sure and do the fingernail test on any i send out from here out. it seems like the ones I have are not the ones having the issue at least. i tested a couple more and all were ok. |
|
Quoted:
I could post better pics for you, but this isn't GD. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Mila Kunis and THICC Hilary Duff. Those are my 2 "Colt's" Here ya go, man. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/363550/20181221_220625_jpg-780853.JPG Ill be in my bunk. For a while.... I could post better pics for you, but this isn't GD. |
|
It would be interesting if someone that has one of these uppers that the C has come off could take it to a local scrap yard and have it hit with a metal analyzer to see if it is at least 7075. May have to call a few yards, I am not sure if everyone has one.
|
|
Quoted:
I bet its stated as such because they were probably contract overruns (or rejects perhaps) and were supposed to have the forging markers machined off (like a couple in the batch I got) but they were instead anodized and sold off. That may explain the lack of dry film lube also (cutting cost for commercial market sales) but then again I have had several colt rifles which did not have the lube. INtegrity arms is a legitimate vendor who does not play games. View Quote Colt fanatics and all. |
|
Quoted:
Once again, speculation and assumptions. Not things that jive well with $100+ stripped upper receivers or guys who want authentic Colt components. Colt fanatics and all. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I bet its stated as such because they were probably contract overruns (or rejects perhaps) and were supposed to have the forging markers machined off (like a couple in the batch I got) but they were instead anodized and sold off. That may explain the lack of dry film lube also (cutting cost for commercial market sales) but then again I have had several colt rifles which did not have the lube. INtegrity arms is a legitimate vendor who does not play games. Colt fanatics and all. Chris (who probably sells hundreds of Colt receivers a week) already backed us up that they're clearly fake, as I'm sure will Geno who also sells tons of real Colt receivers, once he sees I tagged him and gives it a look. Lipstick on a pig fellas. It ain't that hard |
|
@semperfiws6 I know you said you didn’t want to get into a back and forth in this thread but maybe you can clear some things up since it is your web page and things are a little vague.
Are these Colt uppers? Were they sold to you as Colt uppers? Where did you source these from? |
|
Once again, speculation and assumptions. View Quote |
|
Quoted:
well yea, i was never stating it as fact. just joining in the discussion and giving my opinion and ideas on what the issue could be. I am still waiting to hear back to see if it could be from the supplier I think it is from. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Once again, speculation and assumptions. Just as a whole. So far all we have to go on are undocumented statements and subtle variances in samples. Along with a bunch of C forge code markings falling off. Nothing wrong with thinking out loud. |
|
Quoted:
Nah, not aimed at you specifically man. Just as a whole. So far all we have to go on are undocumented statements and subtle variances in samples. Along with a bunch of C forge code markings falling off. Nothing wrong with thinking out loud. View Quote |
|
Quoted: I can't help but laugh at the absurdity. Absolutely ridiculous that these things are claimed to have 100% spot on dimensions and specs, yet they have "Colt" forge marks literally popping off. I guess the forge marks aren't part of these "100% spot on dimensions and specs". Never heard of such nonsense. View Quote of the die, causing a fragile 'cold joint' ". Just not buying it. I've been wrong many times though. Eta: Read a little on aluminum casting in molds, "cold joint" is not an industry term used. Cold shuts and misruns are the terminology used when describing defects in mold pouring of aluminum. "Pouring metal defects include misruns, cold shuts, and inclusions. A misrun occurs when the liquid metal does not completely fill the mold cavity, leaving an unfilled portion. Cold shuts occur when two fronts of liquid metal do not fuse properly in the mold cavity, leaving a weak spot. Both are caused by either a lack of fluidity in the molten metal or cross-sections that are too narrow |
|
Quoted:
And I do not think it's a case of "aluminum didn't flow into the 'C' inclusion of the die, causing a fragile 'cold joint' ". Just not buying it. I've been wrong many times though. Eta: Read a little on aluminum casting in molds, "cold joint" is not an industry term used. Cold shuts and misruns are the terminology used when describing defects in mold pouring of aluminum. "Pouring metal defects include misruns, cold shuts, and inclusions. A misrun occurs when the liquid metal does not completely fill the mold cavity, leaving an unfilled portion. Cold shuts occur when two fronts of liquid metal do not fuse properly in the mold cavity, leaving a weak spot. Both are caused by either a lack of fluidity in the molten metal or cross-sections that are too narrow View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: I can't help but laugh at the absurdity. Absolutely ridiculous that these things are claimed to have 100% spot on dimensions and specs, yet they have "Colt" forge marks literally popping off. I guess the forge marks aren't part of these "100% spot on dimensions and specs". Never heard of such nonsense. of the die, causing a fragile 'cold joint' ". Just not buying it. I've been wrong many times though. Eta: Read a little on aluminum casting in molds, "cold joint" is not an industry term used. Cold shuts and misruns are the terminology used when describing defects in mold pouring of aluminum. "Pouring metal defects include misruns, cold shuts, and inclusions. A misrun occurs when the liquid metal does not completely fill the mold cavity, leaving an unfilled portion. Cold shuts occur when two fronts of liquid metal do not fuse properly in the mold cavity, leaving a weak spot. Both are caused by either a lack of fluidity in the molten metal or cross-sections that are too narrow |
|
Quoted:
And I do not think it's a case of "aluminum didn't flow into the 'C' inclusion of the die, causing a fragile 'cold joint' ". Just not buying it. I've been wrong many times though. Eta: Read a little on aluminum casting in molds, "cold joint" is not an industry term used. Cold shuts and misruns are the terminology used when describing defects in mold pouring of aluminum. "Pouring metal defects include misruns, cold shuts, and inclusions. A misrun occurs when the liquid metal does not completely fill the mold cavity, leaving an unfilled portion. Cold shuts occur when two fronts of liquid metal do not fuse properly in the mold cavity, leaving a weak spot. Both are caused by either a lack of fluidity in the molten metal or cross-sections that are too narrow View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: I can't help but laugh at the absurdity. Absolutely ridiculous that these things are claimed to have 100% spot on dimensions and specs, yet they have "Colt" forge marks literally popping off. I guess the forge marks aren't part of these "100% spot on dimensions and specs". Never heard of such nonsense. of the die, causing a fragile 'cold joint' ". Just not buying it. I've been wrong many times though. Eta: Read a little on aluminum casting in molds, "cold joint" is not an industry term used. Cold shuts and misruns are the terminology used when describing defects in mold pouring of aluminum. "Pouring metal defects include misruns, cold shuts, and inclusions. A misrun occurs when the liquid metal does not completely fill the mold cavity, leaving an unfilled portion. Cold shuts occur when two fronts of liquid metal do not fuse properly in the mold cavity, leaving a weak spot. Both are caused by either a lack of fluidity in the molten metal or cross-sections that are too narrow |
|
|
@871JZ check the URG-I thread. Trust me, you're gonna want to see this.
|
|
|
Quoted:
Those are absolutely, without any shadow of a doubt, fake Colt receivers. And before chhorton pipes up again, real forge marks can't be scraped off with your thumb nail. View Quote The cut where the rail terminates by the charging handle cutout isn’t proof of anything. |
|
Quoted:
Excuse my language, but fuck me. I bought 2 from the seller linked above, and two others from a small online gun store. I'm afraid they are the same. After seeing this post, i had to pull them out and examine much closer. I noticed more than what is mentioned here. The two are in the mail on the way to me, I've asked the seller for a refund via email and will ship them back. I'm hoping he's honest and will refund the money. Will report back on that. Anyway, let's walk through this in detail. I feel like an idiot already, so i'm doing this for the benefit of others. If it looks too good to be true, it is. My first thought after having these in hand is they are too nice, for the price I paid (online store was $100 ea, above EE post i bought from was $300/2. I thought they were NOS, which is why I was willing to ante up) Needless to say let's put this to bed. They are fake. I was able to knock the raised C mark off after using my thumb nail, running over it. Also note keyhole forge mark does look suspect upon closer inspection. https://i.imgur.com/Et3nOIs.jpg Can confirm the actual forgings are different, Tig has a good eye: https://i.imgur.com/ktBYrH0.jpg Anodizing looks totally wrong side by side vs real colt: https://i.imgur.com/loqMdcU.jpg What else? Notice the machining ends abruptly on the fake, and continues to the charging handle cutout: https://i.imgur.com/1Gu10fT.jpg What else? Notice the M4 marked front font is different, and appears to be laser etched possibly? The M4 on colt real is stamped. https://i.imgur.com/dVAi0mX.jpg Well, don't get taken like me. Lesson learned, and hopefully will only be $200 out of pocket as the online retailer never advertised them as Colt, thus i really don't have a leg to stand on. Hopefully the EE seller is a stand up individual, and will refund accordingly. View Quote You are also comparing two uppers that have 4 other forging suppliers and 5 to 6 forging dies inbetween them. |
|
Quoted:
It is clear that just as in any market, the genuine Colt part(s) market has been infiltrated with copies. Liars gonna lie and just goes to prove another example of buyer beware and be knowledgeable about what you are hunting for. @barrelnutz, you did us all a favor and I am really impressed at how people put their heads together on this site and brought the lies out into the light. @cthorton, any change in your assessment of the information provided? View Quote |
|
Quoted:
What happened to @cthorton? He hasn't been back in here (not surprisingly) since two different members were able to scratch the "C" off their uppers. Curious what he has to say about that since he was so sure this thread was a waste of time and full of nothing but misinformation prior to this. I've had some uppers with imperfect forge marks, but I can guarantee you that they wouldn't pop off with my fingernail. View Quote |
|
Quoted:
The response he sent you is extremely unprofessional if you ask me. I am getting the professional vibe from you though, worth noting. But I simply have to disagree with your last paragraph unless Colt has gone off the deep end with cost cutting, to the point of making their brand a joke. The machining does not look Colt, there is no dry film lube applied, the T marks appear to be engraved and aren't even white, the anodizing does not look Colt, the C is able to be scraped off with a thumb nail, the M4 engraving above the gas tube channel is not only relocated but also in a different font. All new production Colt uppers have been coming with Colts CAGE code where the C used to be. All things considered, I think you got duped. View Quote |
|
|
Quoted:
And I do not think it's a case of "aluminum didn't flow into the 'C' inclusion of the die, causing a fragile 'cold joint' ". Just not buying it. I've been wrong many times though. Eta: Read a little on aluminum casting in molds, "cold joint" is not an industry term used. Cold shuts and misruns are the terminology used when describing defects in mold pouring of aluminum. "Pouring metal defects include misruns, cold shuts, and inclusions. A misrun occurs when the liquid metal does not completely fill the mold cavity, leaving an unfilled portion. Cold shuts occur when two fronts of liquid metal do not fuse properly in the mold cavity, leaving a weak spot. Both are caused by either a lack of fluidity in the molten metal or cross-sections that are too narrow View Quote |
|
Quoted: Sure they can if the aluminum didn’t flow correctly in the forging. The cut where the rail terminates by the charging handle cutout isn’t proof of anything. View Quote |
|
|
|
Quoted:
Yes it did. Anodizing is a ceramic. This is brittle. It hardens the surface of the aluminum and makes it brittle. That is why you can chisel off the forge code. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
|
Quoted: Even if the aluminum didn't flow correctly into the forging die, it would simply create a short (not to full height) "C". It would still be fully connected (read: one piece) to the aluminum making up the rest of the receiver. You can't scrape a normally marked "C" off an upper, so why would you be able to scrape a short/shallow "C" off an upper? Just because it didn't flow all the way into the die doesn't mean it's now compromised. It just means it won't be a perfectly formed mark. View Quote |
|
|
Quoted:
Because the C is only about .005” in height and has been hardened by the anodizing which penetrates into the base metal. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Even if the aluminum didn't flow correctly into the forging die, it would simply create a short (not to full height) "C". It would still be fully connected (read: one piece) to the aluminum making up the rest of the receiver. You can't scrape a normally marked "C" off an upper, so why would you be able to scrape a short/shallow "C" off an upper? Just because it didn't flow all the way into the die doesn't mean it's now compromised. It just means it won't be a perfectly formed mark. |
|
Quoted:
If they are glued on, why is there bare pure aluminum underneath them? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
|
Quoted: Then please explain why some of the C's that popped off were fully formed. This eliminates the explanation of an issue with the material not flowing into the die since it's obviously fully formed and intact. Why would these be any different than any other raised C Colt upper after anodizing? Unless I'm missing something, you can't pop those off with a fingernail. These are the only ones with this problem. View Quote Look, I have about 50 post sample 2003-2004 Colt M4s sitting in front of me that have the exact same forging with white T marks and dry lube. They have the same ugly C keyhole marking. Even the font style on the T marks is the same. The T mark font style should have been an immediate clue these were genuine. Like you said. You are very familiar with colt uppers. I also have two engineering degrees and one in metalugry. People in this tread have no clue between cast and forged. Not one of you has attempted to maybe contact an actual expert like Ken Elmore to weigh in on this. Instead you take the word of Colt dealers who are actually second hand resellers. |
|
Quoted: Because maybe they were in the anodizing tank too long. Look, I have about 50 post sample 2003-2004 Colt M4s sitting in front of me that have the exact same forging with white T marks and dry lube. They have the same ugly C keyhole marking. Even the font style on the T marks is the same. The T mark font style should have been an immediate clue these were genuine. Like you said. You are very familiar with colt uppers. I also have two engineering degrees and one in metalugry. People in this tread have no clue between cast and forged. Not one of you has attempted to maybe contact an actual expert like Ken Elmore to weigh in on this. Instead you take the word of Colt dealers who are actually second hand resellers. View Quote As far as their brittleness, it seems they would be more likely to crumble versus pop off in perfect form if your theory is correct, but who knows. It also doesn't help that these were claimed to be 100% in spec, etc., yet they don't match the typical Colt specs all the way around, and at a minimum are unfinished, cosmetic blems. I can see why people had questions about these uppers. Everything about them was off. The raised C isn't even current, yet there's suddenly a massive batch of unfinished, cosmetic blem, vaguely marketed, inexpensive, available from relatively little known vendors, Colt uppers. Then add in the fact that other issues started to arise after more owners started digging in (literally), it only makes sense to question what they have. What I don't understand is if you're such an uber engineering/metallurgical mastermind, why didn't you explain the issue as you see it from the beginning instead of coming into the thread and posting useless sarcastic replies? You really offered nothing of substance until now. |
|
Fascinating thread. I've looked all over my 6720 upper to compare markings and machining
|
|
Quoted: I have seen Colt and non Colt uppers with matching and non matching fonts, as well as many different fonts between different Colt uppers, and even no font at all. Same with the M4 marking. So, the font isn't a dead giveaway, but I'll admit it could be a clue depending on how you're viewing this situation. As far as their brittleness, it seems they would be more likely to crumble versus pop off in perfect form if your theory is correct, but who knows. It also doesn't help that these were claimed to be 100% in spec, etc., yet they don't match the typical Colt specs all the way around, and at a minimum are unfinished, cosmetic blems. I can see why people had questions about these uppers. Everything about them was off. The raised C isn't even current, yet there's suddenly a massive batch of unfinished, cosmetic blem, vaguely marketed, inexpensive, available from relatively little known vendors, Colt uppers. Then add in the fact that other issues started to arise after more owners started digging in (literally), it only makes sense to question what they have. What I don't understand is if you're such an uber engineering/metallurgical mastermind, why didn't you explain the issue as you see it from the beginning instead of coming into the thread and posting useless sarcastic replies? You really offered nothing of substance until now. View Quote |
|
Quoted: They are forged, not cast. View Quote of the die, causing a fragile 'cold joint' " is derp. A forging: "Various material such as steel and aluminum can be forged. In the forging process, to make a receiver for example, an aluminum ingot or billet is heated to between 800 and 900 degrees Fahrenheit depending on the alloy and then pressed (forged) in a precision-machined closed die press to produce the final shape. One of the key advantages of a forged part is that it requires less machining since it is already near or at the final shape/dimension after the forging process." And like I stated, it'll likely not be resolved here, as facts and confirmation of details is constantly overshadowed by cryptic hit and run posts and cock measuring. I'll wait it out and buy from reputable, known trusted sources. You all have a good holiday. |
|
Nah, not aimed at you specifically man. View Quote The T mark font style should have been an immediate clue these were genuine. Like you said. You are very familiar with colt uppers. View Quote Yes. So the explanation of "aluminum didn't flow into the 'C' inclusion of the die, causing a fragile 'cold joint' " is derp View Quote |
|
I heard back from integrity and he is going to refund me on both uppers.
Jj |
|
What I find interesting is if the “C” is indeed added on via some sort of glue it is done before anodizing as evidence of bare aluminum on the ones that have been scratched off.
While I have never done anodizing before there is some fairly harsh chemicals involved. I also know that to achieve the same colors in the finished piece the alloys have to be the same or very similar. This tells me if these were glued on C’s it would have to be glued on with something resistant to the anodizing process, something that won’t interfere with color consistency, and the C would also have to be made of similar material to the upper. I am beginning to think that these uppers are possibly rejects from the forging process where the C did not form properly and something caused it to become brittle and come off. Like stated this would be a ton of work for someone to make and pour a casting of a C and possibly a forging mark out of 7075, then find a glue resistant to anodizing, and the actually glue them on when they could have just stamped a C into the upper and called it good. Also considering that the raised C hasn’t been used in years, a stamped C would be more with the times. Are these Colt uppers? I doubt it. Did they start out as a upper that had a raised C planned from the beginning and not added in later? I would say yes. It would still be interesting if someone could get one analyzed for what alloy these are. It would also be interesting to know if these are actual forgings or someone took a raised C upper and sent it out to be copied and these were cast. |
|
This thread has been very interesting to follow, there is something amiss with these uppers, I do hope we can come to a conclusion as to what it is we're all seeing. And it just reaffirms why when it comes to anything Colt, Shark Arms and Arms Unlimited get my money; too much questionable stuff of unknown origin out there floating around...
|
|
|
Quoted:
Because maybe they were in the anodizing tank too long. Look, I have about 50 post sample 2003-2004 Colt M4s sitting in front of me that have the exact same forging with white T marks and dry lube. They have the same ugly C keyhole marking. Even the font style on the T marks is the same. The T mark font style should have been an immediate clue these were genuine. Like you said. You are very familiar with colt uppers. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Because maybe they were in the anodizing tank too long. Look, I have about 50 post sample 2003-2004 Colt M4s sitting in front of me that have the exact same forging with white T marks and dry lube. They have the same ugly C keyhole marking. Even the font style on the T marks is the same. The T mark font style should have been an immediate clue these were genuine. Like you said. You are very familiar with colt uppers. I also have two engineering degrees and one in metalugry. People in this tread have no clue between cast and forged. Not one of you has attempted to maybe contact an actual expert like Ken Elmore to weigh in on this. Instead you take the word of Colt dealers who are actually second hand resellers. I mean, aren't you curious about the uppers at all? Is the c-mark the end of the question, or would that be a sign of something more? Or do you just see that many c's fall off uppers that it doesn't faze you? |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.