I know this has been asked many times, and I know that BCM does outsource some of their products (at their stringent QC demands,of course) but is BCM an actual 007/Manufacturer of anything that goes into their great rifles? I've always been curious, and now there are some FFL retail shops in California who assemble AR15's from products ordered from outside sources and call them their own by selling them as their own and putting their FFL shop's logo on these rifles (and they claim BCM does the same/ is no different). I just want to clear this up once and for all. I sure would be appreciative of a response. Also, I can't find that thread anywhere that breaks down all the specs (barrel/bolt steel/proof testing/etc.) - it was put out by the BCM owner/rep if I'm not mistaken. If you guys could provide me with a link to the thread, I'd sure like to read that again (it's been a while).

Well, all you BCM experts and "gurus," give me your best! Thanks so much, I really appreciate it.

PF










Still a mystery so far? Because I could have sworn BCM had their own machine shop and fabricated a lot of their own parts. If not, the video on the new version of their website is pretty misleading, to say the least.

Huh?

I like pie.

Nobody knows what you are talking about.

My first post was "mysteriously" deleted. On that note, I was trying to confirm whether or not BCM manufactures any of their own parts "in-house" (do they have their own machine shop & machinists who fabricate rifle parts that go into BCM weapons). After getting zero replies for over 24 hrs (IIAC), I emailed the company myself and got the answer. If anybody knows the answer to my original question and would like to answer it honestly and seriously (with actual knowledge to boot), I will be happy to share what Bravo sent me.

No it wasn't.  It's right here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_138/226898_Just_to_Clarify____.html

Ooops! My bad. Well I guess I should thank you for the copy&paste as I was able to paste the link (in its entirety) into the first post, plus change the title of the thread (for clarity). Now it can be understood by most and answered with actual knowledge by some. Thanks again!

How about you just share your info now?

Or are you one of those "i know a secret, nana nana boo boo" types?

My question is this... what difference does it make? I guess from an academic perspective it's mildly interesting, but as long as the quality of product and excellence in customer service model remain as they are, who cares...!? If it says "BCM" anywhere on the product, or the invoice, you know you're good to go. And whatever the case may be, it's obviously not a secret, or they sure as hell wouldn't have told you... right...?

I was hoping to get some other views from people (preferably the BCM Industry "GUY" here) before I put down what (presumably) another BCM employee emailed me, so that the thread wouldn't die or "fizzle out" once I posted it, that's all.

And as far as your clever comment about "what type I am," I am the type who only gives respect where it is earned (and likewise, I don't expect someone to respect me without my earning it, which has never been a problem. However, for YOU, those smartassed words you made a decision to type earned you zero respect from this camp. And now, everyone can thank you for your cute post. And because of your inability to earn respect, I will PM exactly what BCM emailed me to anyone who PM's me. Everyone, that is, except......guess who?

Your reply just affirmed my previous post.

I guess if you've been put in your place with such a swift sweep of the backhand, your only reproach is to attempt to come up with some kind of clever "comeback" - which you also failed miserably at.


Either way, YOU willl be the only one who will be missing out on seeing the BCM email simply by pm'ing me (or by any other means as well) So there is really only ONE "loser" in this thread. And you only have yourself to blame.

I think what he's asking is pretty clear. Allow me to rephrase...



He's asking if BCM is outsourcing the manufacturing of all or some of their components, and then simply slapping them together with a BCM logo on them. If that were so, how does it distinguish BCM from the multitude of other shops that are basically doing the same thing.



But mostly it's about asking which components are made by someone else (if any).



That's my guess anyhow....



 

Post up the e-mail content!


If I had to guess, I'd assume they are like many others - machine receivers in house and outsourse parts like barrels and bolts.  Just guessing though...

They have couple drill presses.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_4CskJJxvY

Pretty much my interpretation of the OP's post.



Why it was confusing for some, I'm not sure.

I'm still not sure why it matters who makes the stuff, as long as it's made to Paul's spec, and continues to be of the quality that everyone has come to expect / respect. And what sets them apart, is them. Their reputation for providing quality (regardless of the hardware's origin), not only in parts but in service as well. The breadth of selection in their offerings (not just BCM branded stuff, but stuff from many other respected brands). Endorsements from guys like Haley and Rogers (which also suggests that they (BCM) does it right). You sure as hell don't see outfits like PSA getting that kind of support from industry players. In fact I almost feel guilty mentioning PSA in a post about BCM, dare anyone think that I could, or would even be able to compare the two.

Taken from a different industry, when Dell (of PC fame) started out they were simply a systems integrator like so many others, building C.O.T.S. based computer systems. But they did it better. Picked / commissioned better parts. Provided better service. Built a reputation around those fundamentals and turned it into a legitimate, better brand that at the end of the day, provides a better product than the hoards of also-rans.

Related?  Plucked from another site (I have no idea of the background so it may just be smoke...):

Lewis Machine & Tool

LMT
Lauer
DS Arms
PWA
Eagle
Armalite
Knights Armament
Barrett


Continental Machine Tool

Stag
Rock River Arms
High Standard
Noveske
Century (New)
Global Tactical
CLE
S&W
MGI
Wilson Tactical
Grenadier Precision
Colt


LAR Manufacturing (85% of the industry)

LAR
Bushmaster
Ameetec
DPMS
CMMG
Double Star
Fulton Armory
Spike's Tactical


JVP

Double Star
LRB
Charles Daly


Mega Machine Shop

Mega
GSE
Dalphon
POF
Alexander Arms


Olympic

Olympic
SGW
Tromix
Palmetto
Dalphon
Frankford
Century (Old)


Sun Devil

Sun Devil forged billet receivers


Superior

Superior Arms
Lauer (New)


Aero Precision

Aero Precision
Surplus Ammo and Arms
Palmetto State Armory

That list pertains only to stripped lowers.





 

Why the need for any mystery as to where a weapons parts come from?
Paul's got a well deserved reputation for high standards and quality in the industry....but he aint the friggin' messiah.
Again, why the mystery? Where are the parts from that go in to BCM rifles, and which of them are actually made by Bravo and which are outsourced?
You'd think by some of the reactions to such basic, simple questions people were asking to bang the guys wife.
Tell me this, what's the logic that a weapons parts and their origins are better off shrouded in mystery in respect to the consumer?
That being said, I own a BCM rifle and 2 other AR's have BCM uppers and BCG's. Great stuff....but I don't buy in to the "Paul's a guru, and you don't need to know what's behind the magicians curtain" bullshit.
 

A couple things...

Firstly - I pay homage to no guru... and I'm not defending, nor am I an apologist for, BCM. They sell me good shit, I buy it, and I for one don't care where they get it.

Secondly - I ask again, what difference does it make where the stuff comes from? Are you NOT going to buy any more of it if you can't discern its source? If that's the case, than you're missing out on high quality gear for a low quality reason. If you were able to determine where it comes from, would you buy MORE from BCM than you do now?

Do you care where your lgs gets your favorite product from? Have you asked them to tell you where they get it from, and if so, did they / would they tell you? My guess is no, they wouldn't. Why? Because it wouldn't be smart business. It's not just users like us hanging out here. All the peeps that BCM competes with are here... and they would love to know just as much, if not more, than you would who BCM's trade sources are. That, for a whole host of reasons, would be bad business.

Why do you want to know where they source from? What will you gain from the knowledge? IMO, It would simply be grist for the mill... nothing more.

"Endorsements from guys like Haley and Rogers (which also suggests that they (BCM) does it right). You sure as hell don't see outfits like PSA getting that kind of support from industry players"

Maybe OT but...

Having been in the business for a while, and having owned/ shot/ observed most of what is out there (and what has been for 30+ years).

We have better guns, magazines, sights and associated equipment now than ever before.
Most (but not all) of the makers/ sellers have viable stuff.

This uptick has been incremental.

Maybe 7-10 years ago we had a lot of problems with crappy guns holding back the class because stupid/ unknowing people brought "just as good as" guns to class, and they weren't.
We spent a lot of time working on guns in order to get them functional, which cost us both time and money.

We have seen trends develop. One of those is Bravo Company.
Paul started off as a student and became a close friend. That is because of his work ethics, and his passion for what he does.

His guns flat worked, which makes my life easier.

I am at the point in my life where i don't want to waste time trying to figure out what works. In fact, i stopped doing weapons evals for SWAT a few years back.
I only run BCM guns.
The only student guns we use are BCM.

That does not mean that other makers guns suck (although in some cases, it does mean just that). I still recommend other makers guns to students.

What it does mean is  that i am satisfied in the consisitent QA/QC that is exhibited in his guns.


That is all...

Nice summary, Pat.

In manufacturing, most folks don't openly admit who their vendors are, and it is for a multitude of reasons. Get over it, or don't buy the product.

Heck of an endorsement, Mr. Rogers.



Ultimately, the majority of customers just want to know that they're buying a quality product and that seems to be the case here.


 

Mr Rogers was my Dad- please call me Pat...

I'd like to think most want a quality item. Some don't want/ need that quality, and opt for less expensive to purchase.

That is of course false economy, and a better track would be Best Value

At the end od the day one has to determine mission requirements. Once that is defined, you need to get the equipment that best fulfills the mission requirements.

From my perspective, BCM meets my reqs  better than others. It wasn't a difficult decision...

With regards to knowing who makes every component in a rifle, I would ask the following:

Do you know who produces every component in the car you drive or the plane you fly in for work/vacation?  I would argue that either of those two instances would be infinitely more important than knowing every company that produced a part for BCM.  

In my mind, the most important part are the requirements/specifications to which the vendor must build and how rigid of a QC/QA program the buyer sets up and adheres to on received product.  This is where, I believe, BCM shines.

Thanks for Posting here , "Pat" appreciate you taking the time to chime in.

Final quality control is much more important than where the parts come from. Anyone who believes that building rifles is simply a matter of assembling parts does not truly understand rifles or riflemen. A great manufacturer has to start with quality parts, but using quality parts alone does not make anyone a great manufacturer. A great manufacturer has to understand his customers and how they are going to use his products. He has to align his long term interests with his customers long term interests in a way that most people find difficulty understanding.

PSA Doesn't need to pay for any endorsments.
That is all....

There are several possible conclusions that can be drawn from this post Glock031:

1. You're making a joke... in which case, ha ha...
2. You haven't seen the 164+ page thread in PSA's forum entitled "The Official- Where is my order thread", and are thus misinformed regarding the notion that PSA is at all customer oriented...
3. You're insinuating that BCM has to pay for its endorsements, in which case you best be able to back your shit up...
4. You're stupid... or;
5. You're casting aspersions on Pat's integrity, in which case you're brave, and stupid...

So, which is it...?

Cheap shot glock.

No, i do not get paid by Bravo Company for endorsements. I do those because i want to.

I do have a business relationship with BCM as they build/ sell two types of EAG Carbine.

Endorsing BCM is not in the contract. I do that because i want to.

Note that i also recommend other makers AR's as well, to include Colt (and i don't like the company), LMT, LWRCI, Defensive Edge, S&W, KAC, Noveske and Larue.
Those recommendations are based on personal experience as well as observations of multiple articles over an extended period of time.
None of them pay me though many in those companies are- like Paul- friends.

There are other makers of AR's whose guns i would not touch if they came with a years supply of blow jobs.

Sinister - while I compliment you for posting that here (any information - whether confirmed or not - is still interesting), but you are partially correct in your assumption about it just "being smoke." Well, not all of it is. (Just as an example, JD Machine out of Southern California manufactures the majority (if not ALL) of the forged aluminum parts for Noveske - who don't, by the way, manufacture jack for their rifles. I don't believe they even have their own spec sheet with their own standards/tolerances they demand from all their vendors. PLUS they are notorious gougers. Another one is Aero Precision, who manufacture forged aluminum parts for ArmaLite/Eagle. These are just 2 examples of the inaccuracies).  However a lot of the items in that list are, if fact, correct. Thanks for the post!



M4 - as far as your post about "stripped lowers ONLY," that's not correct in the farthest stretches of the imagination.

I will  tell you this, though: Your post above hit the nail on the head. X-Mark, my man! What you say above is, by far, one of the few posts I have ever read on a firearms forum (about this very subject) that made me say to myself "WHY has nobody pointed this out before. (maybe someone has in the past, but I've never seen it) It is brilliance mixed with pure, unadulterated common sense. Period. Bravo for coming out and saying it, because this whole "mysterious vendor/manufacturer" thing is nothing but a counterproductive clusterfuck. Makes ya' wonder who the "genius" was who came up with the ridiculous idea in the first place! Here's one for you from personal experience: I had heard a "rumor" that Lone Wolf aftermarket Glock barrels were made in China. Now, since I happen to own 2 of these (plus I have been on the unfortunate end of seeing and finding out about today's Chinese QC and general poor workmanship more than twice). So, I decided to call Lone Wolf and inquire where their barrels were made.Not who the vendor is; not if LW manufactures them "in house;" etc. The operator's response was as follows:

"It is a Lone Wolf company policy not to give out any information about where we source our parts and barrels That policy also includes not divulging the country of origin in which our items originate from." Like so. When I asked to speak with a supervisor or manager, I was told that those "key personnel" were not available, and was switched over to some CEO/manager's voicemail..........I've been waiting on that callback for 2 months now.

And to Mr. Rog------ er........I mean "Pat" - your information was amazing and really gave me a good view of weapons evaluation. And, yeah, that was a cheap shot about you being paid to tout a product. Don't take it personally, these forums are just crawling with trolls looking to get a rise out of just about anyone. On another note, from personal experience, I have had every ArmaLite M-15 I have tested out-of-the-box work just as flawlessly as BCM's, Colt's, LMT's, and a few others. I would give the ArmaLite line of fighting carbines a good, thorough look if I were you. Just a suggestion.

And to everyone else who is bitching and moaning saying things like "Why does it even matter where that parts are sourced from?" and the true "gem" "Why does anyone care if company "A" manufactures their own weapons in their own shop?" To you guys that got your panties in a bunch over my original post, here is (are) your problem(s) in a nutshell: You are taking this WAAAAAAAY too seriously! Wake up, it's only the internet! All I posted  was a simple question because I wanted a .....wait for it........simple answer. It ain't rocket science. This is a "chat board," and that's what people tend to do on these: chat. And if one doesn't like the question being asked (as long as it's not offensive or hurtful to others), just move on and don't waste everyone's time and all the thread's space with your complaining. Simple. Done. End of story.


BTW, the offer still stands about sending me a PM to get BCM's "inside story" (response)

Paul- re Armalite.

I get to see a lot of guns wielded by students coming through my classes.
I cannot recall if we have seen a complete Armalite rifle in class in the past 12 years. Maybe longer.
I *think* we had 2 lowers with someone else's uppers, but not complete guns.

Re giving them a look? 4 years ago, maybe. Now that Bravo Company makes/ sells EAG carbines, it would be a conflict of interest, so no go.

I depend on observing what others use and while what is gleaned is anecdotal, it is better than nothing.

Anyone like the stag arms uppers?  I noticed that bcm does sell a stag upper.  

I am patiently waiting for the EAG upper (the 700$ one) to be in stock again at bcm.  It looks very nice.

nvmnd

Sorry. Carry on

Excuse me? How do I delete a post?

I had a long and thoughtful response written out detailing how your post made no sense but I decided to change it to nevermind when I realized your reply in your own thread didn't answer any questions.

Sorry. Carry on.

Dude, there's no need to be a dick. This whole thread and all of your responses in it are nothing more than thinly veiled, pathetic attempts at self-aggrandizement. And, you're obnoxious.

Agreed.

I'm trying not to feed the troll but I did tag this thread because I was interested in answers.

As far as deleting the post via the report button I am already aware of that...and I am not going to cause unnecessary work for the mods everytime I decide to redact a response.

So far there haven't been any answers...I suppose in will wait a little longer to see if anything comes out.

I have a BCM Midlength Upper Assembly and love it...so I am not knocking BCM at all.

However, I did think it was weird that BCM was under the Dealers subsection here on the forum.

I guess you guys are correct to some extent. I apologize for being a self-aggrandizing, obnoxious, dick.  Didn't mean for the thread to turn out that way, so I will take full responsibility for this. My bad.

Peace,

PF

EDIT: I reported both of my last 2 posts (which were unnecessary and out of line - which I also said in my report to the mods). Hopefully it will only take a minute or two - once they find the reports - to get rid of them. I know that they will still exist in a few of your posts' quoting me for comment, but I took a real hard look at my originals and realized they never should have been posted by me in the first place. I, in fact, wasted people's time and thread space. Again, I am sorry, as I am usually a stickler on insulting and name-calling (which is one thing I never lower myself to do on a public forum). Again, completely my bad and I'm sorry to all who were offended. I must say that I'm a bit ashamed at taking a cheap shot like that. That just isn't me. Maybe it's the last few horrible days I've been having. I don't know.

No harm done.

I, like you, have the same questions as your OP.

I doubt we will ever get the answer we want so perhaps we will just have to settle for the fact that they always make a quality product like Pat said.

I did, however, consider this thread when purchasing a barrel last night. My options were a BCM standard barrel or a Daniel defense hammer forged for the same price...I chose the DD this time. Perhaps it will be BCM next time (as it has been in the past).

I basically "shot myself in the foot" by lowering myself to insults (JUST like a kindergartener does on a kindergarten playground). Essentially I did something similar to what "MisterPX" lowered himself to do (minus the name-calling, of course). If he wants to Man the Fuck Up and admit his shit, we'll all see if he has the balls and integrity to do so.

Now, since I went ahead and made that poor choice, I have Manned Up, admitted my wrong-doing, and now I feel so bad that I also feel I owe it to you guys to post what Bravo Company sent me in an email. Remember - I was only trying to get some other thoughts/opinions/information from other industry insiders before I was going to post this anyway. Things only went South when one person decided personal attacks/insults were the way to "make" me post this.

Now, without any further ado, here it is in its entirety (copied & pasted from the email message original):







Thank you for contacting us.  We do appreciate your business and support of our products.  BCM (Bravo Company Manufacturing) was founded in 2005 by a Veteran United States Marine, in Hartland, WI which is where the company is located and maintains its headquarters today.  We build weapon systems that are manufactured, reinforced and tested to meet the demands and unforgiving needs of law enforcement, military, security and peace keeping professionals.  Your information is not accurate.



The parts and weapon systems are manufactured and assembled right here at our facility.  (Lowers, uppers, parts, testing, test firing, cleaning, assembly, designing, all the way down to grease nuts and bolts).  We do not just simply stamp our name on the side of a part.

We are a manufacturer of firearms, and are a FFL holder.

Our parts and weapon systems are built to mil-spec but also include our reinforced specifications.  You have ordered from us using this email so you are familiar with the Bravo Company USA website, but here is a little more information about the company itself in the link below.  There are videos and other helpful information.



http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/about/index.php



Thank you for choosing BCM.



[email protected]

Bravo Company USA, Inc.

www.Bravocompanyusa.com

www.bravocompanyMFG.com



cid:[email protected]

Good info here.

Just an FYI for all that read this.



If you screw up or change your mind about a post, please edit the information yourself. I'm not going to do it for you. Normally when I have to edit your post, I take formal action against your account as well.



Now, please end the nonsense in here and get back on topic.


 

Here is just a "feeling" I have that I bet we will see in the very near future: BCM manufactures pretty much everything that goes into their rifles except barrels and bolt carrier groups. I would imagine that the type of equipment and machinery needed to produce those items (to BCM's own standards as they are now) are going to be on their way soon, and we will have a true in-house-made-from-scratch Bravo Company weapon system. The only reason I can see for that not going down is that Paul's bean-counters/money-crunchers have proven it to be more cost-effective to do it the way it is done now via outsourcing to their own specs.

However, if you know what Paul and his team of designers and engineers have already gone out of their way to do (and that is to instill "above mil-specs" and put their own kind of quality into their product - regardless of cost ), I think this may very well happen.




-PF

Having an 07 FFL does not mean all parts or receivers are made in house. A marking variance from the ATF easily allows receivers to be outsourced. In the video, I saw a lot of endorsement, but no real manufacturing capabilities.

 

It doesn't matter if the part is made at BCM's facility or if it comes from somewhere else.  They are selling quality parts - where they are sourced from is of no consequence to me.  The parts work and are reasonably priced.  

WGAF if they source the forward assist spring from another company rather than make it in Wisconsin?  I bet they don't mine the iron ore for the barrels from beneath their own building either.  The expectation that they'll tell you where they get anything from is ridiculous - it's confidential and proprietary information, a trade secret.  It's the secret sauce on their sandwich.    

If you think you can assemble a better rifle by getting parts elsewhere, go ahead and try.  No one is stopping you.

Paul....I thought you asked a legitimate question, and one that I, and probably many others here, have pondered many times.
But, in true AR15.com fashion, the snarky comments ensued, and then the normal, condescending criticism of you for even asking.
No wonder the rest of the firearms on-line community use us as the brunt of most of their jokes.
And yes gang, they do. And it's threads like this one that drive their point home.
After all, how dare you, or I, or anyone else, ask a legitimate question of a respected vendor?
How dare you!
Just pay the going price, kneel and bow as expected, shut up, and move on.
After all, would you ask who supplies the flour in the bread you buy...or where does the hops come from in the beer you buy......or who grows the cotton for the shirt you're wearing...or....?
Sheesh....this place really amazes me some times!
Un-freaking-believable.

I'll shut up and move along now.
Let the snarky comments intended to belittle me for having an opinion begin....as I know they will.