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Originally Posted By mettee:
I do, indeed. It's a warm winter and on top of tired eyes all the AZ crap is in bloom again and the allergies are killing me. Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: You're quoting and talking to yourself, you need a break. Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. |
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Defender3 What material do they run those bullets out of ? Asking for a friend ... View Quote Sorry Mark, but I couldn’t locate a single definitive answer on the Warners. One review said they were a copper alloy, another said they were a copper solid monolithic, a third says they are monometallic, but later calls them a solid “copper alloy,” and a fourth says alloy. So, it’s 3 to 1 that they are an alloy. I creeped their Facebook page, but there was just too much stuff on there and I didn't find an answer. FWIW: Announced here, but no details on composition: A clue here from a South African producer of monolithic projectiles. But here they say they are the only solid red copper monolithic bullet used for long range shooting. Long range only said they were monometallic, but when you go down to “load development,” they call them a copper alloy. Here's a picture from the end of the article showing a flowered flatline. I’m not a metallurgist so I can’t tell you if that’s was solid copper looks like or not. Great data in the article though. Cutting edge states they are making rounds from solid bar stock: A guy making solids on his CNC: CNC Bullet Turning Cutting Edge Bullets - Maybe the Swiss lathe referenced in the Peregrine article?: Bullet Being Machined On A Swiss-Style CNC Lathe Or maybe this one? Match/Tactical Bullet being machined on a Swiss-style CNC Lathe Bonus – AR 15 Bolt machining: Swiss CNC AR-15 Bolt Demo made on a Swistek AB42 complete ETA - Let's see if Mark's OCD has been triggered and he has to go out and buy a Swistek. |
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Originally Posted By Defender3: @LaRue_Tactical Sorry Mark, but I couldn't locate a single definitive answer on the Warner's. One review said they were a copper alloy, another said they were a copper solid monolithic, a third says they are monometallic, but later calls them a solid "copper alloy," and a fourth says alloy. So, it's 3 to 1 that they are an alloy. I creeped their Facebook page, but there was just too much stuff on there and I didn't find an answer. FWIW: Announced here, but no details on composition: A clue here from a South African producer of monolithic projectiles: But here they say they are the only solid red copper monolithic bullet used for long range shooting. Long range only said they were monometallic, but when you go down to "load development," they call them a copper alloy. Here's a picture from the end of the article showing a flowered flatline. I'm not a metallurgist so I can't tell you if that's was solid copper looks like or not. Great data in the article though. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/Flowered_flatline-449101.jpg Cutting edge states they are making rounds from solid bar stock: A guy making solids on his CNC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZeAVrXpS_g Cutting Edge Bullets - Maybe the Swiss lathe referenced in the Peregrine article?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfDObdkxFOA Or maybe this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IC6gYPlWUg Bonus AR 15 Bolt machining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkn3P2Z5m5U View Quote |
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A good starting point for finding out which alloy, is a hardness test
I am thinking this because I highly doubt that they heat treat bullets. I would have to inspect the surface finish on a flatline for post heat treat cosmetic finishing, to eliminate that(heat treat). They look like they have a machine finish.... |
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Originally Posted By mettee:
I do, indeed. It's a warm winter and on top of tired eyes all the AZ crap is in bloom again and the allergies are killing me. Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By mettee:
I do, indeed. It's a warm winter and on top of tired eyes all the AZ crap is in bloom again and the allergies are killing me. Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. Originally Posted By DuneShoot:
With all of your recent bullet/cases/o-give OCD nerdness why haven't you take these bullets to a lab to have them sliced/diced/analyzed? Originally Posted By mettee:
A good starting point for finding out which alloy, is a hardness test I am thinking this because I highly doubt that they heat treat bullets. I would have to inspect the surface finish on a flatline for post heat treat cosmetic finishing, to eliminate that(heat treat). They look like they have a machine finish.... |
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I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel, and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML |
Originally Posted By Defender3: I can only imagine the cost! Supposedly the lathe was $200,000; amortize that, operating costs then profit, which adds up to (in Warner’s case) $1.30 a projectile. Seems Mark could tinker around with the concept and make a run for himself, but flat lines probably can’t be used for hunting since they don’t expand, so they are longer range only. On the other hand, a FL supposedly shoots like a bullet in the next lower weight class with the next higher BC. I’ll have to leave that to a more industrious OCD’er. Look at the video of the solids being made; it looks like they’re using a copper stock. I would assume you would spec the stock from your supplier and then process it. I would doubt you’d need any other processing, except a QC step. View Quote I think the flatline in a gasser would be a great combo. Or a bullet with those parameters so to speak. Yes, I agree, it has to be sourced in rod form. I was reading a little bit about the various copper alloys last night and there are a few ranges that seem to have properties that would work. |
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Originally Posted By mettee:
What did frank from the hide use at 1000 for a hold, it was 6 or less mills, so that tells me its moving. And if my memory serves me right the drift was low as well. I think the flatline in a gasser would be a great combo. Or a bullet with those parameters so to speak. Yes, I agree, it has to be sourced in rod form. I was reading a little bit about the various copper alloys last night and there are a few ranges that seem to have properties that would work. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: I can only imagine the cost! Supposedly the lathe was $200,000; amortize that, operating costs then profit, which adds up to (in Warner’s case) $1.30 a projectile. Seems Mark could tinker around with the concept and make a run for himself, but flat lines probably can’t be used for hunting since they don’t expand, so they are longer range only. On the other hand, a FL supposedly shoots like a bullet in the next lower weight class with the next higher BC. I’ll have to leave that to a more industrious OCD’er. Look at the video of the solids being made; it looks like they’re using a copper stock. I would assume you would spec the stock from your supplier and then process it. I would doubt you’d need any other processing, except a QC step. I think the flatline in a gasser would be a great combo. Or a bullet with those parameters so to speak. Yes, I agree, it has to be sourced in rod form. I was reading a little bit about the various copper alloys last night and there are a few ranges that seem to have properties that would work. |
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It will be interesting to see where it lands in the gasser, BTO vs COAL
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Today's update is a new arrival, albeit probably one that will have to be sold off. I agreed to buy an older model Ohaus 10-0-5 precision beam scale (also sold by Lyman as the M-5) before deciding to ditch the Chargemaster and go with an A&D. This beam scale has two positives, the first being it was made in the USA (models shifted to Mexico and then China) and it's been fine tuned by Scott Parker. This beam scale is good to a kernel of powder! I was going to use it to verify my Chargemaster, but I've since purchased the A&D FX-120i combo, so I think the Ohaus is, sadly, OBE.
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@LaRue_Tactical
Mark, I had some extra time and finally found Projectile with Enhanced Ballistic Efficiency. The USPTO application is here. Click the Images link and then click Full Pages to see all with diagrams. Over to you; I'm back to wasting time, but put me down for a couple hundred. |
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DoubleTap
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Originally Posted By Defender3:
Today's update is a new arrival, albeit probably one that will have to be sold off. I agreed to buy an older model Ohaus 10-0-5 precision beam scale (also sold by Lyman as the M-5) before deciding to ditch the Chargemaster and go with an A&D. This bean scale has two positives, the first being it was made in the USA (models shifted to Mexico and then China) and it's been fine tuned by Scott Parker. This beam scale is good to a kernel of powder! I was going to use it to verify my Chargemaster, but I've since purchased the A&D FX-120i combo, so I think the Ohaus is, sadly, OBE. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6625_JPG-447737.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6627_JPG-447738.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6628_JPG-447733.jpg View Quote |
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I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel, and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML |
Alright, today's update is a bit of a cop out as I had a job offer, then not, then again, then not, so I've been busy actually trying to score employment!
Here's a good reminder of the .260's abilities from none other than The LaRue Accuracy Report; where you can see a one mile 260 shot on steel on the cover and .260 goodness on pages 36 and 60. Passive dehumidifier doing its job in the safe: |
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Originally Posted By Defender3:
Alright, today's update is a bit of a cop out as I had a job offer, then not, then again, then not, so I've been busy actually trying to score employment! Here's a good reminder of the .260's abilities from none other than The LaRue Accuracy Report; where you can see a one mile 260 shot on steel on the cover and .260 goodness on pages 36 and 60. Passive dehumidifier doing its job in the safe: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6629_JPG-450968.jpg View Quote |
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Squire
Without blood, it doesn't count! I survived ARFbortion2016 and all I got was this stupid sigline |
checking in
I like those types of driers as well. I put three in there, with the amount of material that soaks up moisture in a safe, I wanted to be safe carpet, drywall, wood... |
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Squire
Without blood, it doesn't count! I survived ARFbortion2016 and all I got was this stupid sigline |
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Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store.
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Originally Posted By Defender3:
I leave the thread for a minute and look what happens. Costco rules BTW - hot dog and a coke for a buck sixty-five: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6289_JPG-394595.jpg View Quote |
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Squire
Without blood, it doesn't count! I survived ARFbortion2016 and all I got was this stupid sigline |
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:
No peppers, no celery salt, no onions, no pickle. And "Coke" in a Pepsi cup. View Quote Oh, and Mark needs to stop teasing us on his Instagram page with 1911 /2011 stuff! @LaRue_Tactial Mark, didn't you make a run of small 1911 parts at some point? |
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Originally Posted By Defender3:
I don't care what it is, it's a "coke," plain and simple. Oh, and Mark needs to stop teasing us on his Instagram page with 1911 /2011 stuff! @LaRue_Tactial Mark, didn't you make a run of small 1911 parts at some point? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Defender3:
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:
No peppers, no celery salt, no onions, no pickle. And "Coke" in a Pepsi cup. Oh, and Mark needs to stop teasing us on his Instagram page with 1911 /2011 stuff! @LaRue_Tactial Mark, didn't you make a run of small 1911 parts at some point? |
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Originally Posted By SecretSquirell: I'll stick my dick in a WorkSharp before I let you try to sharpen anything of mine.
NRA Benefactor Member 2nd Amendment Foundation Life Member |
Originally Posted By Defender3:
I leave the thread for a minute and look what happens. Costco rules BTW - hot dog and a coke for a buck sixty-five: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6289_JPG-394595.jpg View Quote That aint no coke Costco screwed the pooch on that one bringing pepsi in. The dogs, they are still good though. |
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Originally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By Pjatton:
Don't give a damn! View Quote |
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Rainy day here, makes me wish I had everything set up to load already.
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Originally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. |
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Originally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. View Quote This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it |
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~Wolf
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Today's installment is another precision tool, the Bob Green Comparator. I found one on a site for sale at a great price and jumped on it as I thought there could be benefits from having a precision tool that would enhance BTO accuracy so I could better seat the bullets.
Knowing that the bore of a .260 barrel is 0.256 and the groves are 0.264, I decided to measure the Hornady comparator against the BGC: Hornady: BCG: Hopefully the BGC will allow a more precise BTO so when I do seating, I can better control the jump. I then measured the Warner Flat Lines for BTO with the BGC. As you recall, I previously weight sorted all the WFLs to gauge consistency. Bryan Litz commented on the bearing surface of the .260 in a weight sorting thread: "The problem will be in the BC variation that accompanies the shape variation. Typically, if the bullets have less than 3 to 5 thousandths of variation in base to ogive, it's very difficult to tell the difference in group size at 1000. If the variation is greater than 0.005", then you might see some benefit in vertical group size from sorting them. Best of luck, -Bryan" So, in terms of weight sorting, you may not notice any significant differences at distance, of course, unless there was a real outlier. I'm going to continue to weigh bullets, but more to find the flyer in the group rather than weight sorting them. I took all the WFLs to BTO sort with the exception of the one WFL that was well under the average of the others. The WFLs varied from a -.003 to a +006 from the zero I established. The majority fell within .003 of +.003 so I think I have some good data for when I do seating using a soon to arrive Whidden click adjustable micrometer seating die and a check using a soon to arrive Redding Instant Comparator (which I got on sale at a great price). It's Valentine's Day and still not too late: |
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Originally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
bad time to tell you that I know how to build that for a lot less lol This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
Originally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg I heard your production schedule was "two-weeks," I just couldn't wait....... |
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Originally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
bad time to tell you that I know how to build that for a lot less lol This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg View Quote |
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Originally Posted By mettee:
Deal. Are you getting rid of the Uhaus? Might be interested, always wanted a non electronic scale View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Originally Posted By Defender3: Probably, but you should know it's pretty pricey due to it's desirability (older US model) and the Scott Parker tuning. Not trying to scare you away, but this isn't a $50 eBay scale. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
bad time to tell you that I know how to build that for a lot less lol This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
Originally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg |
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Squire
Without blood, it doesn't count! I survived ARFbortion2016 and all I got was this stupid sigline |
Its 23:53, so that makes it like 0300 in D3 land, where is todays update already
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Back the Blue
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Okay, here's an update for the early birds. It's a facebook post by the Army Marksmanship Unit dealing with weight sorting brass. Basically they said, after sorting and shooting 50,000rds of LC, that they're comfortable with a 1gr total variance.
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Originally Posted By Defender3: Working overnights again? Sorry, just can't get off east coast time. Be patient, todays update will be posted this afternoon, then I take the weekend off! View Quote Im patiently waiting to see what happens with your BTO on the gasser. The bolt portion is good to know as well, but my skin in that game is thin. |
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Originally Posted By mettee:
Oh yeah, I always have to turn in those TPS reports. Im patiently waiting to see what happens with your BTO on the gasser. The bolt portion is good to know as well, but my skin in that game is thin. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: Working overnights again? Sorry, just can't get off east coast time. Be patient, todays update will be posted this afternoon, then I take the weekend off! Im patiently waiting to see what happens with your BTO on the gasser. The bolt portion is good to know as well, but my skin in that game is thin. I ordered a 5/16x32 tap so I can take a fired case and drill and tap it to use on the Hornady tool to see if there are differences in the measurements as the case would then be fire formed and fit the throat better. |
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Back the Blue
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Originally Posted By Defender3: I may work the BTO with the new tools on the bolt gun as I think it would be easier. Then I was going to take what I learned and apply it to the gasser. Even using the Hornady tool, trying to get the bullet in the lands measurement correct is a b$tch. I ordered a 5/16x32 tap so I can take a fired case and drill and tap it to use on the Hornady tool to see if there are differences in the measurements as the case would then be fire formed and fit the throat better. View Quote Has anyone done any loading with the 143 ELD-X? I dont think I have seen it. |
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Originally Posted By Defender3:
Alrighty then, it's time for today's update, which is a fail. The Redding Instant Indicator arrived at the ranch and I thought I'd clean it up and give it a test drive. It arrived well packed and I opted for version that comes with the dial indicator as I got it on sale for the price of the version without! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6668_JPG-453795.jpg I unpacked it, cleaned it and noted it performs a variety of different measurements, not just the finished BTO I had intended. It even comes with a spec 260 case that is very beefy for headspacing. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6669_JPG-453796.jpg I decided to check some of the Hornady 130gr ELD-Ms and set the die in the Forster press and sum-of-a-b$tch, I never accounted for the design of the Forster against the operation of the Redding. Gosh darn, ^%$#%$#%$#^$%^. Now what, I need to go buy a Redding Turret press? I looked on-line and a single stage press is like $140 and there are none for sale on the local used forums. Son of a ^*&%*^%$&^%(&^(*^)*(%%^$&^%$..... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6670_JPG-453794.jpg View Quote |
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