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1/16/2020 9:48:49 PM
Posted: 7/17/2008 9:45:42 PM EST
Where would I find out if it would be legal to place a stock on a pistol?

To be clear here, I'm not talking about an AR, and the collapsible stock would be permanently collapsed. The "intent" would not be to use it as a shoulder fired weapon, or even to use the stock at all. It would genuinely be attached to the pistol for cosmetic reasons.

Any ideas?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:59:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 9:59:42 PM EST by JAFO]
Forget your intentions. Could it be fired from the shoulder? Would the arresting agency think it was intended to fire from the shoulder? If so is the barrel at least 16" and OAL 26"?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:12:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By JAFO:
Could it be fired from the shoulder? Could should not be applicable, or AR pistols would be SBRs.

Would the arresting agency think it was intended to fire from the shoulder? This is kinda what I'm wondering. I know WA uses intended in the defition of a rifle, pistol, or a shotgun, but I'm not so good at looking up federal law. I was hoping that permanently disabling the extension of the stock (it'd be pretty compact, a fraction of the receiver length) before attaching it to the pistol, would be evidence that it wasn't designed or remade to be fired from the shoulder.

If so is the barrel at least 16" and OAL 26"? Nope, not long enough. If it fit these dimensions, it would be pointless as a pistol.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:24:19 PM EST
Please let us know where the ATF takes you so we can send you ghey pron.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:47:28 AM EST
There have been several "pistol" versions of carbines sold with the folding stock permanently welded in the closed position. At such point, the "stock" is nothing more than decorative dead-weight as it does not provide the ability to shoot from the shoulder.

You should see the banter that goes back and forth on the AR recoil spring tube blah blah blah
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:05:03 AM EST
The bear is over there.....................................here is your stick.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:44:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:44:25 AM EST




Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:10:45 AM EST
ATF calls that a short barreled rifle
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:17:24 AM EST
NOTHING IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!

­

.... Until you get caught! Then you are royally screwed!!!
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 9:13:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By JAFO:
Could it be fired from the shoulder? Could should not be applicable, or AR pistols would be SBRs.


AR pistols do not have a stock permanently collapsed or otherwise. If it did have one even just behind the receiver a person could fire it from the shoulder. Then it would likely be argued that it was intended to work that way.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 9:20:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 9:40:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 10:14:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 10:20:47 AM EST by BusySquirrel]

Originally Posted By JAFO:

Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By JAFO:
Could it be fired from the shoulder? Could should not be applicable, or AR pistols would be SBRs.

AR pistols do not have a stock permanently collapsed or otherwise. If it did have one even just behind the receiver a person could fire it from the shoulder. Then it would likely be argued that it was intended to work that way.

You're asking if the stock could be used as a stock. I thought you were asking if the part behind the receiver could be used as a stock, which is why I used the AR as an example. So, you're right, ARs aren't a good example.


Originally Posted By mordecai:
There have been several "pistol" versions of carbines sold with the folding stock permanently welded in the closed position. At such point, the "stock" is nothing more than decorative dead-weight as it does not provide the ability to shoot from the shoulder.

Does anyone know of legal precedent in these cases?



I'm asking about either a fabricating a buttplate that looks like a stock (unweildy pistol part) OR a stock that has been neutered and then attached in place of a buttplate.

If either one is legal, I could get the parts and customize the pistol. For ease of manufacturing, the second option would be better.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 10:58:00 AM EST
Depending on the type of stock you use you could end up making an AOW. I saw a guy with a Ruger Charger and a welded closed Butler Creek folder on it. Looked cool and the stock could not be used as a stock, but given the shape and style of the stock he had inadvertently created a vertical pistol grip. Not sure what he did with it after that.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 2:21:37 PM EST
How about a sketch or photoshop of what you are talking about?

I can't figure out how buttplate (of a pistol)/stock mix. Is this buttplate of the stock flat or curved as to be positioned against something, like a shoulder, and will it be perpendicular to the bore such as a rifle buttplate? If you are talking about just a really short stock I don't see how you could convince a rabid agent (or a jury) that it wasn't intended to be used as a stock regardless of the cheekweld you might get.

I'm only trying to piece together enough to know what you are talking about.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 2:34:00 PM EST
Colt, Model 1911 pistol, cal. .38 Super, S/N 16212, accompanied by an original "Multi-Shot Riot and Anti-Bandit" shoulder stock as originally mfd. by Monarch Arms Sales Company, Los Angeles, California, in the early 1930's

I want this one!!
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 2:35:52 PM EST
"designed to be fired from the shoulder"
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 2:43:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Please let us know where the ATF takes you so we can send you ghey pron.


Yep!
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 3:38:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 3:41:00 PM EST by BusySquirrel]

Originally Posted By JAFO:
Is this buttplate of the stock flat or curved as to be positioned against something, like a shoulder, and will it be perpendicular to the bore such as a rifle buttplate?

I think the side of the buttplate farthest from the muzzle would be concave vertically. Hopefully that makes sense.



Originally Posted By Stumps:
Depending on the type of stock you use you could end up making an AOW....the stock could not be used as a stock, but given the shape and style of the stock he had inadvertently created a vertical pistol grip.


This might work. It might be able to be used as a second vertical grip, but it wouldn't be a forward grip, it'd be rearward. Kinda like an extended beavertail could be used as a grip (except a beavertail that came that far backwards from the receiver would be ALOT more usable as a stock than my idea).

But, hmm, I DO already have a trust for that kinda AOW stuff...



Originally Posted By JAFO:
How about a sketch or photoshop of what you are talking about? I can't figure out how buttplate...

These pistols all have buttplates:







Originally Posted By JAFO:
I'm only trying to piece together enough to know what you are talking about.

I know I'm being vague. If it turns out to be legal to use the part I'm contemplating making, my idea may be marketable, and I'd like to protect that. So I'm not trying to be a pain, it just comes with the territory.



Originally Posted By PCR-00:
"designed to be fired from the shoulder"

Yes, but where would I find the actual written definitions from the legislature (before the ATF interprets it of course)? Which Title or CFR would it be in?
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:48:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 10:08:48 PM EST
Yeah, I think a really short buttstock = prison (unless you become a manufacturer or move to a free state & build your SBR legally).
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:41:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 2:41:36 AM EST by JohnB_greenAK]
duh.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 5:18:36 AM EST
Well, I was kind of thinking that adding a neutered stock WOULD be a bad idea, as it's still a stock and a short barrel.

But replacing a buttplate with an oddly shaped buttplate that was never "designed or intended to fired from the shoulder" MIGHT just be allowable, as no stock is being added.

Guess I'll be having to finish the conceptual design so I can include a drawing when I write the ATF.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 8:31:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
"designed to be fired from the shoulder"

Yes, but where would I find the actual written definitions from the legislature (before the ATF interprets it of course)? Which Title or CFR would it be in?



For WA you have 9.41.010 Terms Defined



Unless the context clearly requires otherwise, the definitions in this section apply throughout this chapter.

(1) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.


(2) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

(3) "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

(4) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(5) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

(6) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(7) "Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.

(8) "Antique firearm" means a firearm or replica of a firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

<<snip>>

(16) "Barrel length" means the distance from the bolt face of a closed action down the length of the axis of the bore to the crown of the muzzle, or in the case of a barrel with attachments to the end of any legal device permanently attached to the end of the muzzle.

<<snip>>
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 9:24:29 AM EST
I think I know what you're thinking about.

A concave buttplate that is vertical. Similar to the end portion of a collapsible stock that rests against the shoulder.

The buttplate could then be welded permanently to the back of the AR receiver (or buffer spring tube).

You could then shoot the AR pistol from the shoulder.

I don't know if that's illegal (since intent would be to shoot from shoulder???)

An alternative would be to attach the buttplate to the shoulder (becomes a shoulder pad) and then you can rest the AR pistol against the shoulder pad to shoot.

I don't know if that would be illegal or legal either
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 9:51:46 AM EST
Info on Page 2!
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:29:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By charliez:
I think I know what you're thinking about.
A concave buttplate that is vertical. Similar to the end portion of a collapsible stock that rests against the shoulder.
The buttplate could then be welded permanently to the back of the AR receiver (or buffer spring tube).
You could then shoot the AR pistol from the shoulder.

You got the vertical concave buttplate correct but an AR is a poor example, as what you are mentioning would be at the rear end of the buffer tube 4-8" behind the receiver. I'm thinking of something that (if installed on an AR,) would attach in place of the buffer tube, and only extend about 1-2" from the back of the reciever. So that's why an AR is a poor example.


Originally Posted By charliez:
I don't know if that's illegal (since intent would be to shoot from shoulder???)
What you are describing (intent to shoulder fire) would be illegal. The intent of the part I am proposing is entirely cosmetic, and would not change the way a weapon is handled. Not to mention if you did place the pistol against your shoulder to fire, you'd probably be forced to use two hands on the pistol, just to maintain control. If you designed it to use two hands, I think it'd fall under an AOW definition.


Originally Posted By charliez:
An alternative would be to attach the buttplate to the shoulder (becomes a shoulder pad) and then you can rest the AR pistol against the shoulder pad to shoot.
I don't know if that would be illegal or legal either

That would be an odd looking shoulder pad, and would be pointless unless I intended to shoulder fire the weapon. But you're not the first to suggest that as a solution to my problem.
More importantly, it would not give the actual firearm the cosmetics I am looking for.




Originally Posted By PCR-00:
I'll just ignore post #3 in this thread where you linked to the WA definition in RED, and quote half the law for you.


Thanks anyways, but I was looking for a Federal level definition like Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 44.

According to that fed definition, I'm looking at a handgun or maybe an AOW. So I guess there's hope if I write them afterall.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:59:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 3:00:29 PM EST by Phil_in_Seattle]
Link Posted: 8/4/2008 11:49:00 AM EST
Here's an example of the welded-shut buttstock on a pistol... Local Linky
Link Posted: 8/4/2008 3:32:49 PM EST
This thread is sofa king we Todd Ed.
Link Posted: 8/4/2008 6:30:15 PM EST
You guys are makin' my head hurt.
Link Posted: 8/4/2008 9:12:55 PM EST
Been rather...uh...busy lately...lotta commuting.

I havn't been able to write a letter to the alphabet soup lately. I still hope to get around to this around Christmas.
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