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Posted: 10/4/2005 5:46:42 PM EDT
from the firearm when travelling? what I knew is just the ammo being in separate places and mag should be empty, but to separate it from the gun? I ask this because my shooting bag contains everything except the ammo which is in a little key locked container. a fellow told me it's a no no in NJ, guns and empty mags don't mix. the only cons on this if the owner forgot to remove leftover ammo from the mags when it was stored back. or even if it's separated when you have a round in it, you're still fried for carrying a loaded firearm. how do NJ owners travell their firearms safely?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:30:02 PM EDT
As long as the mag is empty it can stay with the gun.
I keep my mags with my firearms and the ammo separated.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:07:11 AM EDT
I normally load my mags before I go to the range to save time there, so my mags stay with the rest of my ammo (seperated from the firearms).
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:35:42 AM EDT
Empty pistol with mag.in range bag. Ammo in seperate locked range bag.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:31:46 AM EDT
boomer1

I normally load my mags before I go to the range to save time there, so my mags stay with the rest of my ammo (seperated from the firearms).


be careful on this, for what i knew no round in the mag wherever it is in your car, even stripper clips should be empty.

My range bags has mag pouches in them, the reason in carry mags with the gun but i always made it sure it's empty.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:39:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nutbad:
boomer1

I normally load my mags before I go to the range to save time there, so my mags stay with the rest of my ammo (seperated from the firearms).


be careful on this, for what i knew no round in the mag wherever it is in your car, even stripper clips should be empty.

My range bags has mag pouches in them, the reason in carry mags with the gun but i always made it sure it's empty.



Your 100% correct. You cannot transport loaded mags to and from the range.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:46:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:

Originally Posted By nutbad:
boomer1

I normally load my mags before I go to the range to save time there, so my mags stay with the rest of my ammo (seperated from the firearms).


be careful on this, for what i knew no round in the mag wherever it is in your car, even stripper clips should be empty.

My range bags has mag pouches in them, the reason in carry mags with the gun but i always made it sure it's empty.



Your 100% correct. You cannot transport loaded mags to and from the range.



Can you guys please qoute a soucre for this? Not saying it is not ture I have never herd of that before.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 1:55:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
...You cannot transport loaded mags to and from the range.


I know of no law that states that. Please enlighten us.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 2:43:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 2:48:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:32:29 PM EDT
Here's what I found in Evan Nappens book.

"Lawful transportation of firearms may take place via two statutory methods:

1) Under N.J.S 2C:39-6e, firearms may be transported between one residence and another when moving as long as the firearms are unloaded and contained in a closed and fastned case, or a gun box, or a securely tied pkg, or locked in a trunk of an auto in which it is being transported; and the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonable under the circumstances.

2) Under U.SC. 18 926A federal law preempts state law concerning the transport of firearms in which a person may posses and carry such firearms from one place to another place in which he may lawfully posses and carry such firearms if during the transportation the firearms are unloaded and neither the firearm nor the ammunition is readily accessible or directly accessible from the passenger compartment.

Handguns must be transported pursuant to subsection g. of N.J.S 2C:39-6 The requirements of subsection g. are:

1) the firearm must be unloaded:and
2) contained in a closed and fastened case, or gun box, or a securely tied pkg, or locked in the trunk of an auto in which it is being transported:and
3) the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

Mr. Nappen has also lectured our gun club about transporting loaded mags to and from the range although I can find nothing in the law specifically mentioning this. Next time he address's our club I'll be sure to question him on this.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:22:59 PM EDT
This from the NJSP web site.

All firearms transported into the State of New Jersey:
Shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel, shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.

For additional exemptions refer to Chapter 39, namely 2C:39-g.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All firearms transported through the State of New Jersey:
The following guidelines are provided in order to assist law enforcement officers in applying New Jersey’s firearms laws to persons who are transporting firearms through the State of New Jersey.

New Jersey laws governing firearms permits, purchaser identification cards, registration and licenses do not apply to a person who is transporting the firearm through this State if that person is transporting the firearm in a manner permitted by federal law, 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

This federal law permitting interstate transportation of a firearm applies only if all of the following requirements are met:

A.
The person’s possession of the firearm was lawful in the state in which the journey began;

B.
The person’s possession of the firearm will be lawful in the state in which the journey will end;

C.
The person is transporting the firearm for lawful purpose

D.
The firearm is unloaded

E.
The firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle

F.
The ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle

G.
If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle’s glove compartment or console;

H.
The person is not


1.
a convicted felon

2.
a fugitive from justice an addict or unlawful user of drugs, or

3.
an illegal alien


I
The person has not


1.
been adjudicated to be a mental defective

2.
been committed to a mental institution

3.
been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, or

4.

renounced his United States Citizenship




A person who is transporting a firearm though the State of New Jersey in the manner permitted by person’s possession 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, see Section II above, need not give notice.

Procedures for Investigation of Conduct Involving the Possession or Transportation of Firearms

A.
An officer who reasonably suspects that a person is transporting a firearm in violation of New Jersey law should make reasonable inquiries in order to confirm or dispel that suspicion.

B.
In a case where circumstances reasonably indicate that the person’s possession and transportation of the firearms my be permitted by 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, the officer should make reasonable inquiries in order to determine whether the person’s possession is permitted by that federal law.

C.
If reasonable inquiries lead an officer to conclude that the person’s possession is lawful under either New Jersey law or 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, as described above in Section II, the officer should promptly allow the person to proceed.

D.
Whenever an officer has probable cause to believe that a person’s possession of a firearm is in violation of New Jersey law and not permitted by 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, as described above in Section II, then the officer should make an arrest


Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:27:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 4:31:00 PM EDT by LUGERMAN]
Found this on packing.org. I'm not a member but happen to come across this.


NJ State Police: Loaded Mag same as Loaded Gun I needed to find out if in the Peoples Republik of New Jersey is it is okay to travel in a car (start legal,end legal) with bullets in separated magazine. I spoke with a NJ State Police Firearms detective, who I will keep private. The detective told me that in PRNJ, if you are either from out of state or a resident, loaded magazines are considered loaded guns (Ouch!). Now add to that if you have loaded magazines with hollow points, you get a gun charge and the potential of one charge per bullet (Ouch! Ouch!). The detective said to follow standard federal law about transporting legal. Make sure that when gun and ammo is stored separated (each locked is best), no ammo is in any magazines. Check packing pages on NJ and check government contacts yourself for accurate and updated info. Stay safe and legal.


New Jersey no loaded mags
I posted my conversation with the NJSP in which they told me that loaded magazines are considered loaded guns. If the magazines are loaded with hollow point not only do you get loaded weapon charge, you could get illegal ammo charge for EACH bullet....Welcome to the People Republik of New Jersey :)

This is what I have been told by several Police officers in NJ when asked if I could carry loaded magazines to the range.

I don't load my mags till I get to the range just for this reason.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:08:41 PM EDT
Does this also apply to stripper clips as Nutbad said?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:23:50 PM EDT
That really burns me up. So much misinformation misdirection from that packing.org post.

Magazines are not firearms. A separate charge for every hollowpoint? I'd like to see that happen. The person that gets charged with that will become a rich man.

Originally Posted By FMJunkie:
....Unfortunately, it seems like one of those things where urban legend has permeated certain LE agencies and they believe it to be true...


+1
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 1:33:08 AM EDT
I sent an email to the VP of the ANJRPC

Here's my question,

From: XXXXX@comcast.net
To: executivevicepresident@anjrpc.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 8:16 PM
Subject: Magazine Question


Hi

Can you answer a question please?

Is it legal to transport a loaded magazine , not specifically in the firearm itself per se, but in a range bag with ammo and other items in your truck to the range?

If it's ILLEGAL, can you show me the law?

Thanks in advance, TOM

Here is his response,
From: "Scott L. Bach" <sbach@mindspring.com> [Add to Address Book] [View Source]
To: <xxxxxx@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Magazine Question
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:27:57 +0000


Tom:

Your question is one that needs to be answered by counsel that practices in the area of firearms law. As a member of ANJRPC, you'll find on the inside back cover of News & Briefs the names and phone numbers of counsel retained by ANJRPC to answer questions just like this one for members. If you're in north NJ, you should call Gary Needleman; if in south NJ, please call Stuart Platt.

My own understanding of the issue -- UPON WHICH YOU SHOULD NOT RELY, AS IT IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL OPINION -- is that a magazine can be interpreted as a "firearm" under New Jersey's arcane laws, and consequently carrying a loaded magazine could be interpreted as carrying a loaded firearm.

Please let me know how it goes when you contact counsel.

Sincerely,
- Scott Bach

Bottom line for me is I NEVER travel with loaded mags. in my vehicle. It's not worth the hassle if you get pulled over for whatever reason.



Link Posted: 10/6/2005 3:51:52 AM EDT
Well here is the State’s definition of a "Firearm".


f."Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.



Will someone please tell me how the fuck a loaded mag is interpreted as a firearm?

If I put a loaded mag in my pocket does that mean I am concealing a firearm?

If I have a quick shot for my muzzle loader is that a considered a loaded mag? As it holds powder, a projectile and a primer? If I was to put that in my pocket while I was hunting would I then be concealing a loaded firearm?

If I was to point a loaded mag at anyone would I have assaulted them with a deadly weapon?
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:16:47 AM EDT
The law looks fairly clear to me that transporting loaded magazines that are separate from the gun is technically legal.

So, in the event that a person is pulled over and inspected, the officer is very likely to arrest you anyway, but you are likely to prevail in court after many thousands of dollars and hours have been spent, etc, etc.

I think it would make more sense to focus on transportation methods that not only comply with the letter of the law, but that are also less likely to cause a misunderstanding.

Therefore transporting "loaded" magazines would be an unwise choice.

If you look at it from the officers standpoint, if he sees:
a) the gun in a locked container, in the appropriate area of the vehicle
b) no magazine in the gun
c) the action of the gun 'locked open'
d) ammunition separate from the gun
e) no loaded mags
f) etc, etc, etc
then he would be unlikely to improperly arrest you.

So taking a few extra precautions would greatly reduce the risk of a misunderstanding.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:38:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PK90:
That really burns me up. So much misinformation misdirection from that packing.org post.

Magazines are not firearms. A separate charge for every hollowpoint? I'd like to see that happen. The person that gets charged with that will become a rich man.

Originally Posted By FMJunkie:
....Unfortunately, it seems like one of those things where urban legend has permeated certain LE agencies and they believe it to be true...


+1



I don't see how a loaded magazine by itself without having the firearm for which it was intended to function in could result in a charge of possession of a loaded firearm.

If the possession of hollowpoint rounds is illegal in NJ then it is possible that each hollowpoint round could result in being charged with multiple counts of possession of a hollowpoint round.

In NY the definition of a loaded firearm includes an unloaded firearm.

15. "Loaded firearm" means any firearm loaded with ammunition or any firearm which is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such firearm.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:43:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Camdeck:
The law looks fairly clear to me that transporting loaded magazines that are separate from the gun is technically legal.

So, in the event that a person is pulled over and inspected, the officer is very likely to arrest you anyway, but you are likely to prevail in court after many thousands of dollars and hours have been spent, etc, etc.

I think it would make more sense to focus on transportation methods that not only comply with the letter of the law, but that are also less likely to cause a misunderstanding.

Therefore transporting "loaded" magazines would be an unwise choice.

If you look at it from the officers standpoint, if he sees:
a) the gun in a locked container, in the appropriate area of the vehicle
b) no magazine in the gun
c) the action of the gun 'locked open'
d) ammunition separate from the gun
e) no loaded mags
f) etc, etc, etc
then he would be unlikely to improperly arrest you.

So taking a few extra precautions would greatly reduce the risk of a misunderstanding.



What is the officer doing in your locked trunk, locked firearm cases or locked ammo cans? Hopefully you have not given him/her permission to search your vehicle and open locked containers.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:12:45 AM EDT
rkbar - I believe for the sake of this discussion, we are assuming an event where the officer has concluded (rightly or wrongly) probable cause.

Many people normally take steps that are above and beyond the law to make life easier for themselves.

When someone is pulled over, it generally makes sense to:
a) pull over in a timely, yet safe fashion
b) pull far enough to the side of the road to afford the officer some protection from traffic
c) turn off the car
d) if dark, turn on the dome light so that the officer can clearly see you
e) keep your hands in sight on the wheel
f) speak in fluent english instead of street slang

One may or may not avoid a ticket, but it is always a smart policy.

Keeping your mags unloaded, not in the gun, and the slide locked back follows in the same vein of advice (things you may not be required to do, but make sense anyway).
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:54:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 9:55:10 AM EDT by LUGERMAN]

"What is the officer doing in your locked trunk, locked firearm cases or locked ammo cans? Hopefully you have not given him/her permission to search your vehicle and open locked containers."



Have you or anyone you know even been stopped by an officer and denied him/her permission to search your vehicle? Do you know someone who has?

I'd like to hear exactly how that went down. Can anyone if they have experienced this situtation please post how it happened and what was the outcome after you denied the officer permission to search your vehicle.

I've always been curious about this exact situtation and the outcome.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:44:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
Have you or anyone you know even been stopped by an officer and denied him/her permission to search your vehicle? Do you know someone who has?

I'd like to hear exactly how that went down. Can anyone if they have experienced this situtation please post how it happened and what was the outcome after you denied the officer permission to search your vehicle.

I've always been curious about this exact situtation and the outcome.



I've never had this happen to me, but that was the advice my father gave me when I was traveling from NJ to TX and back. My father was, until his recent retirement, a deputy sheriff back in TX.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 3:53:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Camdeck:
rkbar - I believe for the sake of this discussion, we are assuming an event where the officer has concluded (rightly or wrongly) probable cause.



I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying the LEO has PC that you have or were about to commit a crime? If that was the case you'd be cuffed and stuffed already.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 4:07:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 6:48:27 AM EDT
rkbar - I was assuming for the sake of discussion that one's car was being searched, whether one had consented or the officer had determined PC or 'invented' PC.

In either case, my point was only to say that if one was truly only going to the range then it made sense to make sure everything was being transported above and beyond the law.

Obviously, these NJ gun laws are not very friendly but we have to deal with them nevertheless.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:12:08 AM EDT
Camdeck, gotcha. I agree with you and that's why I've always advocated transporting firearms in locked cases with the ammo in locked containers as well. If you have a trunk transport everything in the trunk. If you must transport in the passenger compartment at least keep everything covered up and out of sight as much as possible. In any case do not give consent to a LEO to search your vehicle or open locked containers even if you are under arrest.
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