just want to be 100% sure on this...
its illegal to have loaded magazines in a vehicle in NY correct? Is there any way around this? ex. having them in a locked container in the trunk, etc?
Just curious, why would you have loaded magazines in the car?
Unless you have a carry permit, you cannot have a firearm 'readily accessible' to you and capable of discharging. When I transport my guns I make sure they have trigger locks on them and that I cannot easily access the ammunition. IE: If the guns are trigger-locked in the back seat, the ammo is in a lockbox in the trunk.
Having loaded mags in your car is asking for trouble. Any cop who finds them is going to ask a lot of questions. Just be safe and keep the ammo out of the mags and separate from the gun. If you're worried about self-defense, I'd pursue a more legal approach.
That's not a problem legally speaking, not sure about NYC though. The only thing you need to make sure is that the weapon is secured seperately from ammo. I keep the rifle in the trunk, in a case, no trigger lock required for transport but sometimes I lock it anyway. Then I have my range bag, and/or ammo cans with my loaded mags and boxed ammo. Basically the loaded mags -or boxed ammo- can't be in the same case as the weapon.
There is nothing in the NYS Penal Law that addresses the legality of transporting loaded mags in a MV. The ENCON law (which is what you would be charged with) states that a rifle/shotgun must be unloaded in both chamber and magazine when in or upon a motor vehicle (with some exceptions). It is silent on the issue of whether "unloaded in chamber and magazine" extends to loaded detachable magazines or clips that are being transported separately or not attached to the rifle/shotgun in or upon a MV.
If you keep your loaded mags in a locked container (preferably inside a locked trunk) I don't see a big issue there but of course that is up to you. A bigger question would be what is a LEO doing rummaging around in your car, locked trunk or locked containers?
There is nothing in NYS law that requires the attachment of a trigger lock or transporting the ammunition separate from the firearm (as long as it's unloaded) when locked in the trunk of a MV.
I was pulled over once for having a headlight out. It was around 11PM and I was on my way home from a friend's house.
The cop asked me to get out of the car, called for backup and then started searching my entire thing. When he had searched the entire vehicle and found nothing, he told me to get the headlight fixed and that I could go. I asked why he searched my vehicle and told me he saw the steering column had a crack on it and that the vehicle could have been stolen. A B.S. response, but it goes to show you that if determined, they'll do whatever they please.
Now if he had searched my vehicle that night and found a couple loaded magazines in the trunk or backseat...
You seem to know better than I do, but I'd still be worried about driving around with a something like that.
doesnt matter if they dont like it or not...
Im just wondering if its legal to have loaded mags in the car if they arnt inserted into the rifle, or if they are locked up or seperate from the firearms.
I ask this because I would like to travel to the range with all my mags loaded, and be able to do so at my house...instead of stand outside in the 0 degree ice drizzle weather trying to load mags while my hands go numb.
"why do you have loaded mags in the car?" , "because im going to the range".
What would they possibly charge you with....if you have nothing to hide, arnt doing anything illegal...what would they get you for.
I just might call up the state troopers again and ask them directly...
anyone else know about the legalities of this?
on a side note, when I was shooting in a state park some years ago, the forrest ranger told myself and others not to load their mags in their cars/trucks, also not to leave loaded guns in their cars/trucks..in addition dont use them as rifle rests, as its illegal... is this true or what?
I vaguely remember a case on this that loaded magazines, even if not in the gun, constituted a loaded gun. I'll have to look into this to refresh my recollection.
Of course, in NYC, all the normal rules are out. You can be charged with possession of ammunition feeding devices and possession of ammunition. You could also be charged with possession of large capacity ammunition feeding devices. All of these are misdemeanors with up to 1 year in jail (15 days on a first offense) and a $25,000 civil fine. The normal exemptions that allow a non-resident to transport pistols and rifles thru NYC are not written to exempt these items, so it's at your own risk.
Back in the late 70's-early80's my AR sat in a dashboard mount in my 73 AMC GREMLIN. Of course this meant it was in plain sight of all LEO as I drove for place to place. (Mind you this is UPSTATE NY with many small towns, no large cities.)
I NEVER had a mag inserted loaded or unloaded in the magwell. I did however have loaded blocked 5 rnd. mags in the vehicle, namely in the glovebox along with my hunting licence. I NEVER had problems.
As a matter of fact, I made friends of a few LEO's when the saw my rifle, and wanted to know where they could buy one!
I guess things have changed for the worse....
If stopped with a rifle in a case, mags in a magpouch targets, ear protection etc...I don't think you'll have problems UPSTATE.
If a LEO began giving me a hard time over transport, I would ask him what the problem was politely, and ask him what concern is it of his that I am transporting a LEGAL firearm to and from the range.
If he continues , I would politely ask to speak to his watch commander, and ask if I was being detained? If I am not being detained, I would politely dismiss myself from the scene and continue on my way.
LEO's have NO buisness in your vehicle UNLESS you are being charged witha CRIME.
An LEO MUST HAVE , either PROBABLE CAUSE or YOUR PERMISSION to search your property or vehicle.
Simple, if asked by a LEO if he can search your vehicle, just say NO!
And if you say no, then they hold you there until they get the ok (search warrent) to do so.... police arnt so kind up where I am....(near Albany). Hell look what they did at the gunshow in Albany, they forced the vendors to put away their EBR type items..I heard they made one put away a CETME being that it was like an "assault rifle"...and Albany has a ban on AK type rifles....
I just want to know if having loaded magazines in the car is legal or not.....
You are going to get multiple answers to this question all based on prior experiences and opinions. If you want a legal answer, consult an attorney.
If you act sensibly, such as placing the loaded mags in a case separate from the firearm and in a compartment not easily accesible by you or your passengers, you will be fine.
Adirondack brings up a good point, its very relative to where in NYS you live. Not all areas enforce the laws the same way, if at all. And many laws are enforced differently now then they were 10 or 20 years ago.
I think PK90 gave you the best answer.
Before I go into my answer for the next part of the question, let me clarify a few issues. I'm a former Army MP. When I was in the reserves almost 50% of my unit were cops on the outside. I have friends in both the NYC DA's office and in the Public Defender's as well. I have had this discussion with every facet of the legal system except for a judge. This is how it plays out:
NYS firearm law is very porly written. Mearly having a firearm in proximity to it's ammunition is consitered a loaded weapon. I know this sounds stupid but it's how the law is worded.
Feraldan is correct, it is illegal to have a loaded pistol on your person or in your vehicle without a valid NYS pistol permit. This is further compounded if your county further restricts your permit with specific conditions like Westchester and NYC does. The law on long arms isn't as clear.
Loaded magazines are NOT illegal, but you MUST secure them in a container seperate from the firearm. Both a locked gun case and a locked ammo box in the same trunk is fine. There is no law requiring you to use a trigger lock, or to remove the bolt from the firearm. These two items can't hurt, but they aren't required. Remember that it is a violation of federal law to transport a loaded long arm across state lines in your vehicle. Remember that if the firearm and ammo are in close proximity to each other, NY thinks it's a loaded weapon. Do the math and keep both items locked in seperate containers.
Now on to the traffic stop stuff:
Anything you can be ticketed for you can also be arrested for. If you are pulled over you can be ASKED to step put of your car by the police. You have the right to know why you were pulled over and why you are being asked to exit your vehicle. You also have the right to refuse to exit your vehicle. This is where it gets stickey and you loose some of your protection under the law. If you do not concent to a search of your vehicle (i.e. refusing to get out, or refusing to allow the police to look in your trunk), they can and probably will call for a dog. If the dog dosen't alert on something, they have no probable cause to proceed. If the dog does alert, you will be required to allow a search regardless of how you feel.
Before anyone jumps in and thinks I'm a facist or a Nazi, I don't agree with this. I think the 4th and 5th ammendments are absolute in this issue. The problem is the courts have granted a wide latitude to law enforcement of these type of searches. My friends in the public defenders office in NYC have had zero success in getting vehicle search evidence thrown out, regardless of how it was obtained.
Now back to the search:
If you do get out of the car, the police have the right to perform a 'terry frisk'. This is a pat down to determine if you have a weapon on you and could pose a danger to the officer. The police may search any part of the vehicle accessable to the driver. They may not search the luggage area without permission, but see above for how that would play out.
Don't argue with the officer. No one makes law by the side of the road. If you have the rifle UNLOADED and locked in a case seperate from it's ammunition you are complying with the law.
What if the vehicle is a SUV or wagon where the cargo area is accessible from the back seat. Are the police allowed to search there as part of the initial search of "any part of the vehicle accessible to the driver"?
The NYS Penal Law in general is very poorly written. In NYS anytime you are in possession of a FIREARM and you also possess the ammunition to fire the FIREARM you are in possession of a loaded FIREARM and subject to arrest in NYS. Keep in mind a FIREARM in NY is defined in PL 265 as a REVOLVER or PISTOL, SBR, SBS etc. and is NOT a rifle/shotgun. That is the reason if you are arrested for having a loaded rifle/shotgun in or upon a motor vehicle you will be charged under the applicable NYS ENCON law. If you are licensed to carry a concealed firearm in NYS you are exempt from PL 265.
There is no requirement that ammunition be transported separately from a rifle/shotgun in NY. It might not be wise to not keep your ammunition in the same case as your rifle/shotgun but it is not illegal to do so as long as your rifle/shotgun is unloaded in both chamber and magazine. It is not illegal to transport a loaded gun across state lines as long as it is legal to do so under state law in every state you enter and travel through.
§ 265.00 Definitions.
3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique
15. "Loaded firearm" means any firearm loaded with ammunition or any
firearm which is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses a
quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such firearm.
It is illegal to possess a handgun in NYS unless you are either exempt from the law or have been issued a pistol license. If you have been issued a carry concealed pistol license in WC (or any other county in NY) and it is restricted to target/hunting/camping/hiking etc. you are permitted to carry concealed while traveling to/from and engaging in these activities. In any case carrying outside your restriction is not a criminal offense in NY. If the LEO wants to bust your balls he can inform your licensing officer which might result in the revocation of your PL. NYC issues a "Target/Hunting" permit which is NOT a carry concealed license in either NYC or NYS. NYC requires that you transport your handgun in locked containers separate from the ammunition except while actually hunting or target shooting or while in your residence. Outside of NYC there is no such regulation.
DISCLAIMER: You should always consult your personal attorney for legal advice or questions and never rely on the Internet babblings of anyone.
The search and seizure law is an extremely complicated area of law. A PO in NYS can order you to exit your vehicle or order you to remain in your vehicle at a traffic stop. If he orders you out of your vehicle and you refuse to comply he can forcibly remove you from your vehicle.
The PO must be able to articulate the reasons permitted under Terry in order to perform a Terry frisk of your person and he can extend that “frisk” to the passenger compartment of your MV. A Terry frisk is a pat down for weapons and not a search for contraband. A PO may not open locked compartments or locked containers under Terry. Illegally obtained evidence is routinely suppressed and it would be very foolish for any LEO to jeopardize his case by performing an illegal search of your MV.
DISCLAIMER: You should always consult your personal attorney for legal advice or questions and never rely on the Internet babblings of anyone.
A cracked steering column might raise an officer's suspicion and allow him to further investigate if a crime has been committed but it doesn't give him the right to search your vehicle without your consent at this point. He should have started with a license/registration/vin check and gone on from there or sent you on your way with a summons or warning to get the light fixed.
The officer was on a fishing expedition for illegal drugs. I would have filed a complaint with his department. Were you a teenager at the time?
ok so what your saying is, if the ammo is in the mags, and its seperate from the firearms (different part of vehicle, or in locked box), its perfectly legal?
Nope, I was 21.
I have nothing to hide and I try my best to comply not only with firearm laws (as complicated or contradictory as they may be) but also with all other regulations. I have two friends who are NYPD and carry nothing but respect for all officers of the law. If a cop asks me to get out of my car, I'll get out. Refusing will only complicate the situation. I got off none the worse. I didn't have anything to hide, so there was no reason to refuse his search.
No standard code will fit every single situation. I had no reason to file a complaint because I recognize how difficult and dangerous his job is on a day to day basis. He was never impolite or discourteous, although his search was overly thorough and really left my vehicle a mess.
The point I was trying to make was that if I had a loaded magazine in my vehicle, I probably wouldn't have gotten off with a warning. It would have peaked his suspicions and made the whole thing take longer/become more serious.
To that end, I'm not looking to use every little legal clause to transport loaded magazines to a gun range. When I trigger lock the gun, lock the mags in a box and separate the two, I'm 100% confident that there will be no issues and I won't be hassled. But that's for my own peace of mind.
Exercising your rights have nothing to do with trying to hide anything. The fact that you had nothing to hide is the very reason to not give permission to a LEO to search your vehicle. If the LEO has legal justification to search your vehicle he does not need your consent.
I've never met a LEO who would consent to a search of his/her personal vehicle by another LEO. Don't be so quick to give up your rights. There are plenty of politicians in NY who would like nothing better then to deny you those rights.
You have a valid point, rkbar.
I didn't feel like my rights were being violated or I would have refused. Next time, I might refuse simply to prove a point. Not that it happens very often.
I think the cops have a tough job and you couldn't pay me enough to do it unless it was in Mayberry RFD. Having said that I have an uderlying suspicion of the police. If they see fit they can plant anything they want in your vehicle during the search. Call me paranoid but....I'll kiss their ring if they tell me to during a traffic stop. They wield far too much power to mess with. Plus when your name ends up in the front page of the local paper for Assult Weapon & Loaded Mags possention your good name is gone forever. No matter what is printed latter on the stigma will always be there.
So, Am I permited to carry a loaded concealed pistol while traveling to and from the range? (In Long Island)
Edit: I found my Pistol License Handbook and YES, we are permited to carry a loaded concealed handgun to and from the range.
A loaded pistol must be carried concealed in Nassau and Suffolk, and only on the way to and from the range unless you obtained the very rare CCW with no restrictions. Displaying the firearm is brandishing, a criminal offense. Even this ridiculous bureacracy in NY recognizes that thugs would simply lurk near ranges and 'cop' an easy firearm. Even going to Mitchell Field, I carry loaded, and don't take the mag out or empty the cylinder until I am at the door.
The PO must be able to articulate the reasons permitted under Terry in order to perform a Terry frisk of your person and he can extend that “frisk” to the passenger compartment of your MV. A Terry frisk is a pat down for weapons and not a search for contraband.
Hey! I guess this means I've been "Terry Frisked". I was walking to the store one afternoon in
the city and two Det. (who I didn't see coming from there car) stopped me and said I matched
the description of "a man with a gun" call they got. They were backed up by two uniforms who
never got out of there car. It was a little warm that day and I had run out of the house in my
field army jacket because I didn't realise it was about 72 deg. outside. They asked me where
I was coming from, going, and where I lived. One Det. got a little nose to nose with me while asking
me these general questions and I remember I got a little 'flip' with him in return.
Just a little bit, mainly because I thought it was a little stupid and insulting that he was trying to
intimidate me by getting in my face for really no good reason. That stopped working with me
back in JHS. The Terry search part may be that I had a Swiss Army knife in my jacket pocket
and he felt it but didn't remove it. (I was in my early thirties)
Any links to what a Terry search is and the case it comes from?
Also, what is NYS ENCON law mean?
I once had a gun pulled on me by a LEO because I had a shotgun shell in my ashtray (coin bin). He threatened to search the whole car, I said, "Go ahead, but you better help me pack it all up again."
After talking on his CB for a while he confiscated the shell and sent me on my way.
Happy reading. If you really want to make your head hurt start on page 1.
Environmental Conservation Law. The following is the section of the ECL that prohibits having a loaded rifle/shotgun in or upon a motor vehicle.
§ 11-0931. Prohibitions on the use and possession of firearms.
2. No firearm except a pistol or revolver shall be carried or
possessed in or on a motor vehicle unless it is unloaded in both the
chamber and the magazine, except that a loaded firearm which may be
legally used for taking migratory game birds may be carried or possessed
in a motorboat while being legally used in hunting migratory game birds, .......
NY has thousands of laws, rules and regulations for things that many people have never heard of.
ABP Abandoned Property
AGM Agriculture & Markets
ABC Alcoholic Beverage Control
ACG Alternative County Government
ACA Arts and Cultural Affairs
BVO Benevolent Orders
BSC Business Corporation
CVP Civil Practice Law & Rules
CVR Civil Rights
CVS Civil Service
CCO Cooperative Corporations
CPL Criminal Procedure
DCD Debtor & Creditor
DOM Domestic Relations
COM Economic Development Law
EDP Eminent Domain Procedure
EML Employers' Liability
ENV Environmental Conservation
EPT Estates, Powers & Trusts
GAS General Associations
GBS General Business
GCT General City
GCN General Construction
GMU General Municipal
GOB General Obligations
LLC Limited Liability Company Law
LFN Local Finance
MHY Mental Hygiene
MDW Multiple Dwelling
MRE Multiple Residence
MHR Municipal Home Rule
PPD New York State Printing and Public Documents
NPC Not-For-Profit Corporation
PAR Parks, recreation and historic preservation
PEP Personal Property
PVH Private Housing Finance
PBA Public Authorities
PBB Public Buildings
PBH Public Health
PBG Public Housing
PBL Public Lands
PBO Public Officers
PBS Public Service
PML Racing, Pari-Mutuel Wagering and Breeding Law
RAT Rapid Transit
RPP Real Property
RPA Real Property Actions & Proceedings
RPT Real Property Tax
RCO Religious Corporations
RSS Retirement & Social Security
REL Rural Electric Cooperative
SCC Second Class Cities
SOS Social Services
SWC Soil & Water Conservation Districts
SAP State Administrative Procedure Act
STF State Finance
STT State Technology
SLG Statute of Local Governments
TCP Transportation Corporations
UCC Uniform Commercial Code
VAT Vehicle & Traffic
VAW Volunteer Ambulance Workers' Benefit
VOL Volunteer Firefighters' Benefit
WKC Workers' Compensation
BSW Boxing, Sparring and Wrestling Ch. 912/20
BAT Bridges and Tunnels New York/New Jersey 47/31
CCT Cigarettes, Cigars, Tobacco 235/52
TRY City of Troy Issuance of Serial Bonds
DEA Defense Emergency Act 1951 784/51
DPN Development of Port of New York 43/22
ETP Emergency Tenant Protection Act 576/74
EHC Expanded Health Care Coverage Act 703/88
FEA NYS Financial Emergency Act for the city of NY 868/75
NYP NYS Project Finance Agency Act7/75
YFA Yonkers financial emergency act 103/84
YTS Yonkers income tax surcharge
FDC Facilities Development Corporation Act 359/68
GCM General City Model 772/66
LEH Local Emergency Housing Rent Control Act 21/62
ERL Emergency Housing Rent Control Law 274/46 337/61
LSA Lost and Strayed Animals 115/1894
MCF Medical Care Facilities Finance Agency 392/73
NYW N. Y. wine/grape 80/85
HHC New York City health and hospitals corporation act 1016/69
PCM Police Certain Municipalities 360/11
PNY Port of New York Authority 154/21
POA Port of Albany 192/25
PAB Private Activity Bond 47/90
RLA Regulation of Lobbying Act 1040/81
SNH Special Needs Housing Act 261/88
SCT Suffolk County Tax Act
TSF Tobacco Settlement Financing Corporation Act
UDG Urban development guarantee fund of New York 175/68
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UDR Urban development research corporation act 173/68
NNY New, New York Bond Act 649/92
Are stripper clips or speedloaders a magazine? I say no as they don't hold the amunition in the weapon. But even so, I could see someone in court over it.
Then why did you sell me a package with 4 fully loaded mags you bastard! Knowing I had to drive 100 miles of hostile territory. Dick Thanks bro, it's sweet. Shoot me your email, I'll send pics.
Because hostile territory requires loaded mags. I don't believe in having a weapon handy that's not "good to go".
Personaly I would only bring one mag at a time to the range. For fear that if a cop decided to confiscate that mag, just because he thinks he is god, he would only get one.
I think you'd be even happier if they confiscated your truck.
Regarding the loaded magazine out of the gun question, as it relates to NYS ECL 11-0931?
Q: A long gun with the chamber clear and the magazine removed but not emptied. loaded or unloaded ?
A: The gun is unloaded, (NYS DEC commissioners decision from decades ago) I believe the intent was to make the firearm safe from accidental discharge while under way and obviously to curb the road hunting.
No special notes on case law found in McKinneys Consolodated laws of NYS. Interesting, I see a note where gunclubs/ranges are not subject to the 500 foot discharge rule.
Can another agency or a judge interpret it differently,...... you bet.
Basically it is what it is unless you want to be the case law.
so according to the NYS atty gen its legal or?
It is perfectly legal to have a loaded magazine in your vehicle. You cannot have it inserted into the rifle in your vehicle AND/OR have a round in the chamber while in your vehicle. If the magazine is not in the gun, it is not loaded. Having a "loaded magazine" refers to having a loaded magazine in the gun, without having it ready to fire.
Be sure however to keep em separated. There are some cops out there who will be happy to F### with you. If you put a loaded mag right next to a rifle you are asking for trouble. Keep the gun covered, and the mag in your glove box.
I'am not a cop but i'am pretty sure that a cop can't search anything of yours that is locked without a search warrent. Meaning if your glove compartment is locked and your trunk is locked then he can not search those places without a search warrent. Now if he really wanted to be a big pain in the ass he can call in the K-9 unit and if the dogs smell something then you have to open it. Cops can make up stories but they really need a proper cause. Just know your rights and you will be ok.
Not case law but my anti-gun town tried to prosecute me for having a perfectly legal AR in the trunk. They originally tried to charge me with a number of gun charges, including ENCON stuff.
At the time I had -IIRC- 7-10 fully loaded mags in a range bag on the front seat and about 700 rounds of boxed ammo. In the rifle case was an unloaded, unlocked AR. In the end they couldn't charge me with anything firearm related, and trust me if there was even an obscure law that they could have used to charge me, such as having loaded mags, they would have found it.
Boy do I wish that was always the case, some cops see something gun related and they impound your vehicle.
if cops do anything out of line or illegal, they risk being sued, and I dont think any of them want that either..
so from the sounds of the overall feedback, a loaded mag that isnt inserted into a rifle is perfectly safe, just to be even safer yet, lock the gun in the trunk and ammo in the passenger part of the car.
The reason the police have such a wide latitude with traffic stops is each time a challenge is made to procedure, (and upheld in favor of the police), the result becomes one of the numerous exceptions to your 4th ammendment rights. The Terry frisk, the search of the area a driver or passanger could reach, asking (ordering) you out of the vehicle are all exceptions that have been incorporated into the traffic stop.
I should have said that refusing to exit the vehicle will probably result in a dog being used on your car. If the dog alerts, they get to search.
do dogs sense gunpowder and go for that? like would they be alerted and alarmed over say if you have ammo in the trunk?
You left out the "AP ammo" and "Geez it looks like a MG" BS. It's a good thing the ATF actually knew the difference.
If you have a trunk everything should be transported there and not in the passenger compartment.
Failing to comply with an officer who orders you out of your vehicle after a traffic stop will likely result in you being forcibly removed from the vehicle, cuffed and stuffed in the patrol car.
and if you keep ammo in the passenger area your somehow breaking a magical non-existant law?