User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:04:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Yes, it's a pistol, not a rifle.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 7:04:56 AM EDT
[#2]
I CC'd one once on a protective detail, one of my last gigs as a PI.
Spokane PD thought that was pretty amusing, as there was one officer assigned to smooth the way for our principal. He called a bunch of buddies over to check out the rig.  There were some VERY concerned looks on the faces of the two SWAT guys that came by. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 7:17:22 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
The marys thread had me thinking.... If I understand the law correctly couldn't an ar pistol be kept loaded in a car by a cpl holder? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I believe that if you carry a loaded weapon in a car (with CPL), said weapon has to be ON you, not just in the vehicle. I could be wrong though. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 7:28:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The marys thread had me thinking.... If I understand the law correctly couldn't an ar pistol be kept loaded in a car by a cpl holder? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I believe that if you carry a loaded weapon in a car (with CPL), said weapon has to be ON you, not just in the vehicle. I could be wrong though. And wrong you be. Hold tight for RCW. Edit: RCW 9.41.050: "(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle." As you can see it is "or" so any of the 3 subsets. So it can be loaded anywhere in the car while you are in it, and it can be loaded anywhere in the car out of sight while you are not inside of it. Double Edit: There are quite a few people who will remove their firearm from its holster when driving their car to make the weapon more accesible. VS trying to draw your weapon from between your back and the car seat. I know a few people who put it between their seats, or under their leg, so on and so forth. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:40:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Maybe I should buy a new lower, have it registered/engraved as a pistol, and the slap the rest of my build on it.
Hmm... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:44:55 AM EDT
[#6]
AR pistol.. well it's a pistol
 What I'm wondering is, maybe Phil would know, about PG shotguns. I know Mossberg now slaps a label on theirs saying it must be transfered as a pistol(21 YOA or older, etc).
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:51:09 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
AR pistol.. well it's a pistol What I'm wondering is, maybe Phil would know, about PG shotguns. I know Mossberg now slaps a label on theirs saying it must be transfered as a pistol(21 YOA or older, etc). I do believe that pistol grip shotguns are still considered long guns though, hence the 18" barrel requirement and if you go lower then that you need a SBR stamp. But I can't say that with any large amount of certainty as I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on tv. If you really want to know I would also suggest checking state laws regarding hunting and wildlife as there may be a law pertaining having any shotgun loaded in a car as a violation (pistol or otherwise). |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:59:23 AM EDT
[#8]
That's the feds though..
The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features..
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:32:30 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
That's the feds though.. The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features.. One problem with that is that the state says that a pistol is designed to be held and fired with one hand. If it was a pump shotgun then they could argue it was designed to be used with two hands (which it is) which under federal law again makes it a long gun. At that point the state would most likely hold it to long gun classification and would need to be unloaded in the vehicle under state law... Edit: An example would be the Moss Super Shorty. It has a fold down vert grip in the front which means it HAS to be classified as a SBR and can not be sold as a pistol. Which is also why you can not put a VFG on an AR Pistol, because in the governments eyes that makes it a SBR that needs a stamp. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:06:54 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's the feds though.. The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features.. One problem with that is that the state says that a pistol is designed to be held and fired with one hand. If it was a pump shotgun then they could argue it was designed to be used with two hands (which it is) which under federal law again makes it a long gun. At that point the state would most likely hold it to long gun classification and would need to be unloaded in the vehicle under state law... (Long Guns have to be shoulder-fired per RCW) Edit: An example would be the Moss Super Shorty. It has a fold down vert grip in the front which means it HAS to be classified as a SBR (I think you mean AOW) and can not be sold as a pistol (incorrect - they are sold as pistols in WA per RCW). Which is also why you can not put a VFG on an AR Pistol, because in the governments eyes that makes it a SBR (AOW) that needs a stamp. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:16:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's the feds though.. The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features.. One problem with that is that the state says that a pistol is designed to be held and fired with one hand. If it was a pump shotgun then they could argue it was designed to be used with two hands (which it is) which under federal law again makes it a long gun. At that point the state would most likely hold it to long gun classification and would need to be unloaded in the vehicle under state law... (Long Guns have to be shoulder-fired per RCW) Edit: An example would be the Moss Super Shorty. It has a fold down vert grip in the front which means it HAS to be classified as a SBR (I think you mean AOW) and can not be sold as a pistol (incorrect - they are sold as pistols in WA per RCW). Which is also why you can not put a VFG on an AR Pistol, because in the governments eyes that makes it a SBR (AOW) that needs a stamp. That's exactly how I'd read into it.. long gun = shoulder fired. But I'm not an attorney, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:21:42 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's the feds though.. The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features.. One problem with that is that the state says that a pistol is designed to be held and fired with one hand. If it was a pump shotgun then they could argue it was designed to be used with two hands (which it is) which under federal law again makes it a long gun. At that point the state would most likely hold it to long gun classification and would need to be unloaded in the vehicle under state law... (Long Guns have to be shoulder-fired per RCW) Edit: An example would be the Moss Super Shorty. It has a fold down vert grip in the front which means it HAS to be classified as a SBR (I think you mean AOW) and can not be sold as a pistol (incorrect - they are sold as pistols in WA per RCW). Which is also why you can not put a VFG on an AR Pistol, because in the governments eyes that makes it a SBR (AOW) that needs a stamp. Correct, Super-Shorty is an AOW. Definitly my bad. And per RCW rifles and shotguns don't HAVE to be fired from the shoulder, just "intended" to be. Don't know how that effects aftermarket grips and so forth. The laws don't cover pistol grip shotguns at all regarding loading, but I would believe that when in doubt WA courts would probably go by federal views, and putting a pistol grip on a shotgun does not make it something other then a shotgun in their eyes... Would love if someone had some more information, experience, links for this topic though. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:37:33 AM EDT
[#13]
To build a. True pistol 12 gauge wouldn't you need tostart with an un previously built reciever then put a short rifled slug barrel on it since riflings vs smooth bore differentiates a sbr or pistol from an aow?
T Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:45:58 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
To build a. True pistol 12 gauge wouldn't you need tostart with an un previously built reciever then put a short rifled slug barrel on it since riflings vs smooth bore differentiates a sbr or pistol from an aow? T Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is what I had believed. I do believe there is an older Shotgun Pistol that you can still find for sale that is a break action, double barrel that has a 7 inch barrel or so with rifleing on the last couple inches of the barrel... See if I can find a pic. Edit: Cobray. It is a .410 3in derringer. Photo: 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:51:22 AM EDT
[#15]
You talking about the cobra one that is 45lc or 410 I think
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:20:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Washington State Legal References & Links>PCR-00s Washington State Gun Related RCWs Page>Chapter 9.41 RCW FIREARMS AND DANGEROUS WEAPONS>9.41.010Terms defined.
(7) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.
(13) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.
(14) "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(19) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
RCW 9.41.050 Carrying firearms. (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol. (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction. (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle. (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor. (3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle. (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor. (4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law. RCW 77.15.460
Loaded firearm in vehicle — Unlawful use or possession — Penalty. (1) A person is guilty of unlawful possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle if: (a) The person carries, transports, conveys, possesses, or controls a rifle or shotgun in or on a motor vehicle; and (b) The rifle or shotgun contains shells or cartridges in the magazine or chamber, or is a muzzle-loading firearm that is loaded and capped or primed. (2) A person is guilty of unlawful use of a loaded firearm if the person negligently shoots a firearm from, across, or along the maintained portion of a public highway. (3) Unlawful possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle or unlawful use of a loaded firearm is a misdemeanor. (4) This section does not apply if the person: (a) Is a law enforcement officer who is authorized to carry a firearm and is on duty within the officer's respective jurisdiction; (b) Possesses a disabled hunter's permit as provided by RCW 77.32.237 and complies with all rules of the department concerning hunting by persons with disabilities. (5) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall not be considered loaded if the detachable clip or magazine is not inserted in or attached to the firearm. From the August 1998 BATF FFL Newsletter AGE RESTRICTION REMINDER
Licensees are reminded that certain commercially produced “shotguns” do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA. Firearms such as the Mossberg Model 500 Camper, Persuader 500 and all other makes and models, which come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the butt stock, are not shotguns under the GCA. Therefore, they cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person less than 21 years of age. From the February 1999 BATF FFL Newsletter AGE RESTRICTIONS ON FIREARMS TRANSACTIONS Youth Handgun Safety Act Recently mailings went to the licensees providing for poster requirements and handbill delivery requirements of an explanation brochure to handgun transferees from Federal firearms licensees. These mailings led to some confusion within the industry. No change has been made to the age restrictions pertaining to Federal firearms licensees transferring firearms. If the firearm being transferred is other than a rifle or shotgun [27 CFR § 178.99(b) & 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1)], then the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older. It the firearm is a rifle or shotgun then the purchaser must be 18 years of age or older. The Youth Handgun Safety Act of 1996 (YHSA) made it unlawful for “any person” to provide a handgun to a juvenile (under 18 years of age), with limited exceptions. Prior to the implementation of this law, a nonlicensed individual was not restricted under Federal law from providing a handgun to a person of any age. They were restricted as to State of residence and prohibited person categories, but no age restriction. The YHSA changed this. Then by regulation, effective September 11, 1998, ATF implemented a requirement for Federal firearms licensees to place a poster in their premises, including gunshows, informing their purchasers of this new law. In addition, the licensee must provide a copy of the restrictions as provided on ATF I 5300.2. This poster and these handouts may be obtained from the ATF Distribution Center at 703-455-7801. “Shotguns” with pistol grips attached In the last ATF Newsletter (August 1998) an article stated shotguns with pistol grips and no shoulder stocks attached were restricted to persons 21 years of age or older if being sold by a Federal firearms licensee. This requirement is specified in 27 CFR § 178.99(b) and 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1) (www.atf.treas.gov/core/regulations/ 27cfr178.html), which states that if the firearm to be transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun” then the purchaser must be 21 years of age. The definition of a shotgun under the GCA [18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(5)] is a weapon “intended to be fired from the shoulder.” With the pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock, this weapon is not designed to be fired from the shoulder, and therefore is not a shotgun. Questions have been raised about those firearms that are supplied with both a pistol grip and a shoulder stock. If the firearm is sold with the shoulder stock then the firearm is intended to be fired from the shoulder and would be considered a shotgun. The shoulder stock does not necessarily have to be attached at the time. Persons 18 years of age or older may purchase those firearms from licensees. Other questions raised pertain to entries made in the licensees required records as to firearm type if not shotgun. These entries may indicate the firearm type simply as Title I. Quoted:
AR pistol.. well it's a pistol What I'm wondering is, maybe Phil would know, about PG shotguns. I know Mossberg now slaps a label on theirs saying it must be transfered as a pistol(21 YOA or older, etc). Transferring as a pistol would be an imprecise description it should be transferred as other than other than a rifle or shotgun i.e. the same as an AR lower is handled. As for carrying something like the Mossberg Cruiser loaded in a vehicle: Good luck with the Cop, prosecutor, your lawyer, and the judge |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 12:39:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:From the August 1998 BATF FFL Newsletter
AGE RESTRICTION REMINDER
Licensees are reminded that certain commercially produced “shotguns” do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA. Firearms such as the Mossberg Model 500 Camper, Persuader 500 and all other makes and models, which come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the butt stock, are not shotguns under the GCA. Therefore, they cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person less than 21 years of age. I would love to know what effect this has on shotguns sold with regular stock and switched to pistol grip. Would that be the same equivelant as once a lower has been used as a rifle it can't be a pistol? If my local FFL took a Mossberg Persuader and installed a stock on it could they then sell it to an 18 year old? So many questions... |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2009 12:45:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Correct, Super-Shorty is an AOW. Definitly my bad. And per RCW rifles and shotguns don't HAVE to be fired from the shoulder, just "intended" to be. Don't know how that effects aftermarket grips and so forth. The laws don't cover pistol grip shotguns at all regarding loading, but I would believe that when in doubt WA courts would probably go by federal views, and putting a pistol grip on a shotgun does not make it something other then a shotgun in their eyes... Would love if someone had some more information, experience, links for this topic though. There's quite a breadth of info on this very topic which I think is stickied in this forum as it pertains to RCW... I apologize up front, I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but should WA statute fail to encompass a particular article (such as 18" pistol grip shotguns as an example - too long to be a pistol, and not shoulder-fired as a shotgun), they fall under the general definition of "firearm", but they most certainly do not automatically defer to "federal views" for more reasons than I can list... It's a state issue and is restricted as such. If it's a federal issue to begin with, it will have to be addressed in a federal court. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
