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Posted: 11/4/2009 4:54:26 AM EST
The marys thread had me thinking.... If I understand the law correctly couldn't an ar pistol be kept loaded in a car by a cpl holder?

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Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:04:01 AM EST
Yes, it's a pistol, not a rifle.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:04:56 AM EST
I CC'd one once on a protective detail, one of my last gigs as a PI.

Spokane PD thought that was pretty amusing, as there was one officer assigned to smooth the way for our principal. He called a bunch of buddies over to check out the rig.

There were some VERY concerned looks on the faces of the two SWAT guys that came by.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:17:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Kolat:
The marys thread had me thinking.... If I understand the law correctly couldn't an ar pistol be kept loaded in a car by a cpl holder?

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I believe that if you carry a loaded weapon in a car (with CPL), said weapon has to be ON you, not just in the vehicle. I could be wrong though.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:28:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 6:36:06 AM EST by David_ESM]
Originally Posted By NWTimmy:
Originally Posted By Kolat:
The marys thread had me thinking.... If I understand the law correctly couldn't an ar pistol be kept loaded in a car by a cpl holder?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


I believe that if you carry a loaded weapon in a car (with CPL), said weapon has to be ON you, not just in the vehicle. I could be wrong though.


And wrong you be. Hold tight for RCW.

Edit: RCW 9.41.050:

"(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle."

As you can see it is "or" so any of the 3 subsets. So it can be loaded anywhere in the car while you are in it, and it can be loaded anywhere in the car out of sight while you are not inside of it.

Double Edit: There are quite a few people who will remove their firearm from its holster when driving their car to make the weapon more accesible. VS trying to draw your weapon from between your back and the car seat. I know a few people who put it between their seats, or under their leg, so on and so forth.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:40:00 AM EST
Maybe I should buy a new lower, have it registered/engraved as a pistol, and the slap the rest of my build on it.

Hmm...
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:44:55 AM EST
AR pistol.. well it's a pistol

What I'm wondering is, maybe Phil would know, about PG shotguns. I know Mossberg now slaps a label on theirs saying it must be transfered as a pistol(21 YOA or older, etc).
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:51:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By jonathon:
AR pistol.. well it's a pistol

What I'm wondering is, maybe Phil would know, about PG shotguns. I know Mossberg now slaps a label on theirs saying it must be transfered as a pistol(21 YOA or older, etc).


I do believe that pistol grip shotguns are still considered long guns though, hence the 18" barrel requirement and if you go lower then that you need a SBR stamp.

But I can't say that with any large amount of certainty as I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on tv. If you really want to know I would also suggest checking state laws regarding hunting and wildlife as there may be a law pertaining having any shotgun loaded in a car as a violation (pistol or otherwise).
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:59:23 AM EST
That's the feds though..

The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features..
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:32:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 8:34:40 AM EST by David_ESM]
Originally Posted By jonathon:
That's the feds though..
The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features..

One problem with that is that the state says that a pistol is designed to be held and fired with one hand.
If it was a pump shotgun then they could argue it was designed to be used with two hands (which it is) which under federal law again makes it a long gun. At that point the state would most likely hold it to long gun classification and would need to be unloaded in the vehicle under state law...

Edit: An example would be the Moss Super Shorty. It has a fold down vert grip in the front which means it HAS to be classified as a SBR and can not be sold as a pistol. Which is also why you can not put a VFG on an AR Pistol, because in the governments eyes that makes it a SBR that needs a stamp.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 9:06:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 9:07:10 AM EST by mordecai]
Originally Posted By David_ESM:
Originally Posted By jonathon:
That's the feds though..
The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features..

One problem with that is that the state says that a pistol is designed to be held and fired with one hand.
If it was a pump shotgun then they could argue it was designed to be used with two hands (which it is) which under federal law again makes it a long gun. At that point the state would most likely hold it to long gun classification and would need to be unloaded in the vehicle under state law...
(Long Guns have to be shoulder-fired per RCW)

Edit: An example would be the Moss Super Shorty. It has a fold down vert grip in the front which means it HAS to be classified as a SBR (I think you mean AOW) and can not be sold as a pistol (incorrect - they are sold as pistols in WA per RCW). Which is also why you can not put a VFG on an AR Pistol, because in the governments eyes that makes it a SBR (AOW) that needs a stamp.


Link Posted: 11/4/2009 9:16:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By mordecai:
Originally Posted By David_ESM:
Originally Posted By jonathon:
That's the feds though..
The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features..

One problem with that is that the state says that a pistol is designed to be held and fired with one hand.
If it was a pump shotgun then they could argue it was designed to be used with two hands (which it is) which under federal law again makes it a long gun. At that point the state would most likely hold it to long gun classification and would need to be unloaded in the vehicle under state law...
(Long Guns have to be shoulder-fired per RCW)

Edit: An example would be the Moss Super Shorty. It has a fold down vert grip in the front which means it HAS to be classified as a SBR (I think you mean AOW) and can not be sold as a pistol (incorrect - they are sold as pistols in WA per RCW). Which is also why you can not put a VFG on an AR Pistol, because in the governments eyes that makes it a SBR (AOW) that needs a stamp.



That's exactly how I'd read into it.. long gun = shoulder fired. But I'm not an attorney, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 9:21:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By mordecai:
Originally Posted By David_ESM:
Originally Posted By jonathon:
That's the feds though..
The state may consider it a handgun based soley on features..

One problem with that is that the state says that a pistol is designed to be held and fired with one hand.
If it was a pump shotgun then they could argue it was designed to be used with two hands (which it is) which under federal law again makes it a long gun. At that point the state would most likely hold it to long gun classification and would need to be unloaded in the vehicle under state law...
(Long Guns have to be shoulder-fired per RCW)

Edit: An example would be the Moss Super Shorty. It has a fold down vert grip in the front which means it HAS to be classified as a SBR (I think you mean AOW) and can not be sold as a pistol (incorrect - they are sold as pistols in WA per RCW). Which is also why you can not put a VFG on an AR Pistol, because in the governments eyes that makes it a SBR (AOW) that needs a stamp.



Correct, Super-Shorty is an AOW. Definitly my bad.
And per RCW rifles and shotguns don't HAVE to be fired from the shoulder, just "intended" to be. Don't know how that effects aftermarket grips and so forth.
The laws don't cover pistol grip shotguns at all regarding loading, but I would believe that when in doubt WA courts would probably go by federal views, and putting a pistol grip on a shotgun does not make it something other then a shotgun in their eyes...

Would love if someone had some more information, experience, links for this topic though.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 9:37:33 AM EST
To build a. True pistol 12 gauge wouldn't you need tostart with an un previously built reciever then put a short rifled slug barrel on it since riflings vs smooth bore differentiates a sbr or pistol from an aow?

T

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Link Posted: 11/4/2009 9:45:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 9:53:46 AM EST by David_ESM]
Originally Posted By Kolat:
To build a. True pistol 12 gauge wouldn't you need tostart with an un previously built reciever then put a short rifled slug barrel on it since riflings vs smooth bore differentiates a sbr or pistol from an aow?

T

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This is what I had believed. I do believe there is an older Shotgun Pistol that you can still find for sale that is a break action, double barrel that has a 7 inch barrel or so with rifleing on the last couple inches of the barrel... See if I can find a pic.

Edit: Cobray. It is a .410 3in derringer. Photo:
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 9:51:22 AM EST
You talking about the cobra one that is 45lc or 410 I think

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Link Posted: 11/4/2009 10:20:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 11:39:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:From the August 1998 BATF FFL Newsletter
AGE RESTRICTION REMINDER
Licensees are reminded that certain commercially
produced “shotguns” do not fall within the
definition of shotgun under the GCA. Firearms
such as the Mossberg Model 500 Camper,
Persuader 500 and all other makes and models,
which come equipped with a pistol grip in place
of the butt stock, are not shotguns under the GCA.
Therefore, they cannot be sold or delivered by a
licensee to any person less than 21 years of age.

I would love to know what effect this has on shotguns sold with regular stock and switched to pistol grip. Would that be the same equivelant as once a lower has been used as a rifle it can't be a pistol?
If my local FFL took a Mossberg Persuader and installed a stock on it could they then sell it to an 18 year old?

So many questions...

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 11:45:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By David_ESM:
Correct, Super-Shorty is an AOW. Definitly my bad.
And per RCW rifles and shotguns don't HAVE to be fired from the shoulder, just "intended" to be. Don't know how that effects aftermarket grips and so forth.
The laws don't cover pistol grip shotguns at all regarding loading, but I would believe that when in doubt WA courts would probably go by federal views, and putting a pistol grip on a shotgun does not make it something other then a shotgun in their eyes...

Would love if someone had some more information, experience, links for this topic though.


There's quite a breadth of info on this very topic which I think is stickied in this forum as it pertains to RCW...

I apologize up front, I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but should WA statute fail to encompass a particular article (such as 18" pistol grip shotguns as an example - too long to be a pistol, and not shoulder-fired as a shotgun), they fall under the general definition of "firearm", but they most certainly do not automatically defer to "federal views" for more reasons than I can list... It's a state issue and is restricted as such. If it's a federal issue to begin with, it will have to be addressed in a federal court.
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