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Posted: 9/30/2014 4:00:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2014 5:17:19 PM EST by ARsR4ME]
On another forum a guy said he got pulled over in Pasadena for speeding and got a ticket. The officer also made him remove his hat and glass' so he could take his pic with his handheld pad of some sort. Dont get into the whole "if you dont have nothing to hide then just do it" shit. No cop bashing either. One simple question. Is it legal for LEO to force you to take a pic on a traffic stop?

ETA original Website
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 4:27:58 PM EST
Wow, that seems really odd, love to hear the reasoning for that from the PD. I suspect if the driver had tried to take a picture of the officer it wouldn't go over too well.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 4:28:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2014 4:28:50 PM EST by captexas]
edit - double tap
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 4:57:06 PM EST
You can take all the pictures you want in public, but I don't see how he can compel you to take off your hat and glasses.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 6:11:59 PM EST
When you are arrested, doesn't the agency have the right to fingerprint and photograph you?

Isn't a traffic citation an arrest?

Sounds legit... but weird.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 6:14:28 PM EST
A lot of agencies do this because of identity theft. Unfortunately it's fairly common for one brother whose license is invalid, has a warrant or whatever to use his brothers name and DOB, then never take care of ticket. Having a picture of person who was issued citation helps clear innocent person.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 6:22:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Zaminsky:
When you are arrested, doesn't the agency have the right to fingerprint and photograph you?

Isn't a traffic citation an arrest?

Sounds legit... but weird.
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yes

no

agree
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 6:23:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2014 6:24:54 PM EST by Zaminsky]
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Originally Posted By txinvestigator:


yes

no

agree
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Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Originally Posted By Zaminsky:
When you are arrested, doesn't the agency have the right to fingerprint and photograph you?

Isn't a traffic citation an arrest?

Sounds legit... but weird.


yes

no

agree


Am I free to go??

j/k I do not wish to create joinder!!




Link Posted: 9/30/2014 8:02:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1057:
A lot of agencies do this because of identity theft. Unfortunately it's fairly common for one brother whose license is invalid, has a warrant or whatever to use his brothers name and DOB, then never take care of ticket. Having a picture of person who was issued citation helps clear innocent person.
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This.

Newer handheld electronic citation machines have the ability to attach photos to the electronic tickets. A photo of the driver taken during the traffic stop proves who was actually issued the citation. If someone used your name for a traffic summons then it would be proof that it wasn't you in court. They can also be used to take photos of crash damage when a citation is subsequently issued, etc.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 8:19:40 PM EST
Just take his pic at the same time. Let's see what happens next.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 8:26:03 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 72826:
You can take all the pictures you want in public, but I don't see how he can compel you to take off your hat and glasses.
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Sniff test fail.

Obviously he can to make sure you are the same person as the photo in the DL.

Of course, if it is a Muslim female wearing head garb with completely covered face, shitstorm would ensue.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 8:32:10 PM EST
This is clearly cop bashing!
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 8:38:55 PM EST
I don't see how they could make you remove your glasses & cap.

Is LE required to provide picture ID upon request?
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 8:57:56 PM EST
So no one knows if its legal or if you have the right to refuse. I dont know alot of laws but only refuseing the dwi is the only thing i know that gets you a ride for.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 9:32:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DiazOsos:
This is clearly cop bashing!
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I agree
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 9:33:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2014 9:39:37 PM EST by 1057]
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Originally Posted By RenegadeX:


Sniff test fail.

Obviously he can to make sure you are the same person as the photo in the DL.

Of course, if it is a Muslim female wearing head garb with completely covered face, shitstorm would ensue.
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Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Originally Posted By 72826:
You can take all the pictures you want in public, but I don't see how he can compel you to take off your hat and glasses.


Sniff test fail.

Obviously he can to make sure you are the same person as the photo in the DL.

Of course, if it is a Muslim female wearing head garb with completely covered face, shitstorm would ensue.


A lot of cops don't have ability to get DL photos from their MDT's, saying they have MDT's. So as what usually happens with most cops a violator doesn't have DL on them, when they run name/dob they have no idea if person is who they say they are.

I have ability to run someone with DL or name and DOB and pull DL/ID photo to make sure I'm dealing with the person whom said person claims to be. If I'm handed state ID im good. You tell me Name/DOB I'm pulling your DL photo.

Been a LOT of identity theft, USUALLY from family members using siblings when contacted by police. If I'm contacted by police and issued a citation(yes I've been written) I don't have a problem with cops taken my picture.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 9:50:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2014 9:50:22 PM EST by FullsizeFun]
Cop cars have dash cams and some cops have lapel cameras taking video the whole time. How is taking a pic different?
You can take pics/video of the cop too, some cops may not like it, but its legal.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 10:17:38 AM EST
Well shit, if I have to pose for a picture, why do I need to carry a photo ID?
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 10:30:35 AM EST
having your picture taking from?

you mean taken by.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 3:45:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By joemama74:
. . . why do I need to carry a photo ID?
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A lot of people don't.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 7:39:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Tboy:
I don't see how they could make you remove your glasses & cap.

Is LE required to provide picture ID upon request?
View Quote



We have it, and I've shown it when asked. No big deal to me at all.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 7:47:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Tboy:
Is LE required to provide picture ID upon request?
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They are in my city.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 12:27:26 AM EST
No right to privacy in public view.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 7:16:17 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
No right to privacy in public view.
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There is a difference between that and being required to take off hats and eyeglasses and pose for a picture. When you are in public, the press or whoever can take your picture and there is not much you can do about it, but you don't have to cooperate, you can hide your face with something, wear a disguise, etc. You are certainly under no obligation to pose for paparazzi. The question is under what legal authority can a LEO who is not more than ticketing someone for a minor traffic offence compel someone to submit to posing for a photo? If it isn't legally mandatory can a driver refuse? If a person did, would the officer claim that such refusal was in itself suspicion of some other crime like identity theft? Is that kind of suspicion reasonable without some other evidence? Could they arrest for refusal if they otherwise wouldn't normally just for a speeding ticket? I know they are given wide discretion to arrest for practically any or nearly no reason, but would it stick? What could they charge someone with or would they just do it to ruin a person's day by cuffing them and hauling them downtown and having their car towed?
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 7:29:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
No right to privacy in public view.
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that
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 7:43:02 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Zaminsky:
Isn't a traffic citation an arrest?
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A traffic citation isn't an arrest but a traffic stop is technically an arrest since you aren't free to go until the officer releases you. It's really only a temporary arrest.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 9:50:12 AM EST
The more I think about this, the more I wonder if I'm missing something so please help clarify.

To operate a motor vehicle on public roads in TX, one must have a valid drivers license. If the driver does not have the license on them, they coud provide DL# or other identifiers in order for LE to pull up their record? Am I correct in thinking that agencies have the ability to pull up that person's picture on their car computer? Is the demand to take a picture of the person due to the officer not having access to a proper teminal? Kinda like having a vendor take an impression of you credit card when the machines/phones are down?

As a follow-up question, how/why is the law applied to driving on private tollroads? Is a driver required to have updated inspections, tags, valid DL, insurance?
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 10:29:41 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Tboy:
The more I think about this, the more I wonder if I'm missing something so please help clarify.

To operate a motor vehicle on public roads in TX, one must have a valid drivers license. If the driver does not have the license on them, they coud provide DL# or other identifiers in order for LE to pull up their record? Am I correct in thinking that agencies have the ability to pull up that person's picture on their car computer? Is the demand to take a picture of the person due to the officer not having access to a proper teminal? Kinda like having a vendor take an impression of you credit card when the machines/phones are down?

As a follow-up question, how/why is the law applied to driving on private tollroads? Is a driver required to have updated inspections, tags, valid DL, insurance?
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Dude, we cant even get a straight answer as to waether a cop can leagaly make you take off your hat and glass' and take your phot for a speeding ticket. Your questions are gonna overload the hide.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:18:46 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Tboy:
The more I think about this, the more I wonder if I'm missing something so please help clarify.

To operate a motor vehicle on public roads in TX, one must have a valid drivers license. If the driver does not have the license on them, they coud provide DL# or other identifiers in order for LE to pull up their record? Am I correct in thinking that agencies have the ability to pull up that person's picture on their car computer? Is the demand to take a picture of the person due to the officer not having access to a proper teminal? Kinda like having a vendor take an impression of you credit card when the machines/phones are down?

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If a person doesn't have a DL on them, the driver can provide me their DL #...which is kind of rare as most cant remember their DL #. If they can't remember it, I just run it by name and DOB. I'll have dispatch give me the description of that name of DOB to make sure it matches the person I have pulled over. You can get a citation for not having a driving with a DL on you but it's one of those citations where you pissed the cop off. Not all agencies are able to pull up a person's picture on their MDT. It depends if the agency gives the officer access that kind of stuff. I know I can't. Only our dispatchers can. I've seen agencies where the officers run their own CCH and pull up the person's picture on their MDT.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 3:20:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ARsR4ME:
Dude, we cant even get a straight answer as to waether a cop can leagaly make you take off your hat and glass' and take your phot for a speeding ticket. Your questions are gonna overload the hide.
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There is no straight answer. The law does not address this exact scenario. If you are justified in compelling someone to do something like that, you would be justified in using force to do so...doesn't seem reasonable to me. Our new citation writers have this ability. With paper citations, we would take a thumbprint from folks that did not present a hard copy DL. Now we can snap a picture of the violator. If someone was wearing sunglasses, I would simply ask them to remove the glasses so I could compare their drivers license photo. No problem. *Click* Not a single person ever knew that I had taken their picture.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 3:31:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By WhiffleBat:


There is no straight answer. The law does not address this exact scenario. If you are justified in compelling someone to do something like that, you would be justified in using force to do so...doesn't seem reasonable to me. Our new citation writers have this ability. With paper citations, we would take a thumbprint from folks that did not present a hard copy DL. Now we can snap a picture of the violator. If someone was wearing sunglasses, I would simply ask them to remove the glasses so I could compare their drivers license photo. No problem. *Click* Not a single person ever knew that I had taken their picture.
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Originally Posted By WhiffleBat:
Originally Posted By ARsR4ME:
Dude, we cant even get a straight answer as to waether a cop can leagaly make you take off your hat and glass' and take your phot for a speeding ticket. Your questions are gonna overload the hide.


There is no straight answer. The law does not address this exact scenario. If you are justified in compelling someone to do something like that, you would be justified in using force to do so...doesn't seem reasonable to me. Our new citation writers have this ability. With paper citations, we would take a thumbprint from folks that did not present a hard copy DL. Now we can snap a picture of the violator. If someone was wearing sunglasses, I would simply ask them to remove the glasses so I could compare their drivers license photo. No problem. *Click* Not a single person ever knew that I had taken their picture.


Great answers here.

So, now that thumbprint are required when issued a license,do you have ability to compare?
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 3:46:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2014 3:49:34 PM EST by topgunpilot20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tboy:
The more I think about this, the more I wonder if I'm missing something so please help clarify.

To operate a motor vehicle on public roads in TX, one must have a valid drivers license. If the driver does not have the license on them, they coud provide DL# or other identifiers in order for LE to pull up their record? Am I correct in thinking that agencies have the ability to pull up that person's picture on their car computer? Is the demand to take a picture of the person due to the officer not having access to a proper teminal? Kinda like having a vendor take an impression of you credit card when the machines/phones are down?

As a follow-up question, how/why is the law applied to driving on private tollroads? Is a driver required to have updated inspections, tags, valid DL, insurance?
View Quote

Drivers license returns from DPS are text only (at least in my city), so the DL photo is not available. The only descriptors on a DL are race, hair color, eye color, height, and weight. DLs can be looked up by number or name and date of birth.

The reason you're not getting a straight answer on whether a driver can be compelled to remove hat/glasses for a photo is because there isn't one. Technically, during a detention an officer has the authority to control the movement of the detained person, so I would think an officer could remove the hat/glasses based on that during the detention. There is a long history of doing this while documenting gang members. However, these electronic ticket devices are pretty new along with the issue of photographing drivers on simple traffic stops. While I believe the driver can be compelled to have their picture taken under current case law, I don't think an officer would want to use force to do so and be the test case. Most officers with the electronic devices just take the picture while talking to the driver, and the driver doesn't even know it.

The reason for taking the photo during the stop is to prove in court that the cited person was indeed the driver. DL photos are tiny and can be extremely out of date with online renewal (I think mine is 7 years old).

Traffic laws apply to private toll roads.
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 12:04:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By joemama74:
Well shit, if I have to pose for a picture, why do I need to carry a photo ID?
View Quote


you dont have to, youll jut get a ticket for fail to display dl on top of whatever else youre getting.

a traffic stop is a detention. you dont have to ID yourself unless youre under arrest. but...if you refuse to ID yourself on a traffic stop, your probably going to jail for whatever traffic offense you committed/fail to display DL. I know traffic guys that discreetly take the photo with their auto-ticket writer, never heard of a roadside photoshoot...
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 3:31:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2014 3:33:22 PM EST by WhiffleBat]
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Originally Posted By Tboy:
Great answers here.

So, now that thumbprint are required when issued a license,do you have ability to compare?
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Originally Posted By Tboy:
Great answers here.

So, now that thumbprint are required when issued a license,do you have ability to compare?


The ability is there, but it is a lot of resources to expend for a traffic citation. Honestly, the thumbprints we take on the side of the road are just about useless. They are typically taken on the corner of a ticket book with a half-ass inkpad portable inkpad from someone seated in a vehicle. When you couple that with the fact that most of the folks that have no tangible ID are hispanics, and many of those do manual labor for a living, their thumbprints do not do us much good. Pictures are better and more easily comparable for the average person. I doubt our court is running citation prints through AFIS to ID folks that received a seatbelt ticket..

Originally Posted By MrWhite227D:
I know traffic guys that discreetly take the photo with their auto-ticket writer, never heard of a roadside photoshoot...


Yep. Walk up with the ticket writer held in the same position that I write with it...picture taken as you look at me.

I went back to paper citations when I went back to night shift a couple years ago though.
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 4:53:46 PM EST
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Originally Posted By WhiffleBat:


The ability is there, but it is a lot of resources to expend for a traffic citation. Honestly, the thumbprints we take on the side of the road are just about useless. They are typically taken on the corner of a ticket book with a half-ass inkpad portable inkpad from someone seated in a vehicle. When you couple that with the fact that most of the folks that have no tangible ID are hispanics, and many of those do manual labor for a living, their thumbprints do not do us much good. Pictures are better and more easily comparable for the average person. I doubt our court is running citation prints through AFIS to ID folks that received a seatbelt ticket..



Yep. Walk up with the ticket writer held in the same position that I write with it...picture taken as you look at me.

I went back to paper citations when I went back to night shift a couple years ago though.
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Originally Posted By WhiffleBat:
Originally Posted By Tboy:
Great answers here.

So, now that thumbprint are required when issued a license,do you have ability to compare?


The ability is there, but it is a lot of resources to expend for a traffic citation. Honestly, the thumbprints we take on the side of the road are just about useless. They are typically taken on the corner of a ticket book with a half-ass inkpad portable inkpad from someone seated in a vehicle. When you couple that with the fact that most of the folks that have no tangible ID are hispanics, and many of those do manual labor for a living, their thumbprints do not do us much good. Pictures are better and more easily comparable for the average person. I doubt our court is running citation prints through AFIS to ID folks that received a seatbelt ticket..

Originally Posted By MrWhite227D:
I know traffic guys that discreetly take the photo with their auto-ticket writer, never heard of a roadside photoshoot...


Yep. Walk up with the ticket writer held in the same position that I write with it...picture taken as you look at me.

I went back to paper citations when I went back to night shift a couple years ago though.


You would think there'd be some phone ap that would work in the field - at least that's what I get from watching all those cop shows on TV!
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 5:01:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Tboy:


You would think there'd be some phone ap that would work in the field - at least that's what I get from watching all those cop shows on TV!
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Originally Posted By Tboy:
Originally Posted By WhiffleBat:
Originally Posted By Tboy:
Great answers here.

So, now that thumbprint are required when issued a license,do you have ability to compare?


The ability is there, but it is a lot of resources to expend for a traffic citation. Honestly, the thumbprints we take on the side of the road are just about useless. They are typically taken on the corner of a ticket book with a half-ass inkpad portable inkpad from someone seated in a vehicle. When you couple that with the fact that most of the folks that have no tangible ID are hispanics, and many of those do manual labor for a living, their thumbprints do not do us much good. Pictures are better and more easily comparable for the average person. I doubt our court is running citation prints through AFIS to ID folks that received a seatbelt ticket..

Originally Posted By MrWhite227D:
I know traffic guys that discreetly take the photo with their auto-ticket writer, never heard of a roadside photoshoot...


Yep. Walk up with the ticket writer held in the same position that I write with it...picture taken as you look at me.

I went back to paper citations when I went back to night shift a couple years ago though.


You would think there'd be some phone ap that would work in the field - at least that's what I get from watching all those cop shows on TV!

They exist, but they're not very reliable.
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