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Posted: 11/26/2007 7:30:37 PM EDT
anyone got what the law says, as i have been gifted a pistol (at 18) and wanted to see what the law said verbatum
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 2:41:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 2:42:57 AM EDT by DougR]
Not sure about VA, but the feds say this about gifts:


Page 165, under straw purchases of the 2005-2006 ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Guide states:

"Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in this instance. If Mr. Jones bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473."


Now the next question is about you being 18. I am thinking that is legal as a parent can give a child his own hunting rifle, but I gotta go check that out. Anyway, wish I had a relative who gave me good gifts.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 2:50:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 2:50:58 AM EDT by DougR]
Found this too:


(B14) May a parent or guardian
purchase firearms or ammunition
as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18
years of age)?
Yes. However, possession of
handguns by juveniles (less than 18
years of age) is generally unlawful.
Juveniles generally may only receive
and possess handguns with the written
permission of a parent or guardian
for limited purposes, e.g., employment,
ranching, farming, target practice
or hunting.
[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]


Sound like you are good to go!
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 6:16:31 AM EDT
and i guess i can assume that open carry laws are on the same level for me too?

my family owns a jewelry store in northern VA,

can conceal carry if i am going to and from my place of employment, even though i am not 21, i dont think the law every really mentions anyhting about it, however employment makes me think it does
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 6:39:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DougR:
Now the next question is about you being 18. I am thinking that is legal as a parent can give a child his own hunting rifle, but I gotta go check that out. Anyway, wish I had a relative who gave me good gifts.


I was "gifted" a sidearm at 19. Federal Law is good to go as long as you're over 18.

Gifted is in quotes because I couldn't purchase a sidearm at 19, but my father could give me one after he bought it. I then decided to give my dad a gift of $650.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 8:31:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skate1989:
and i guess i can assume that open carry laws are on the same level for me too?

my family owns a jewelry store in northern VA,

can conceal carry if i am going to and from my place of employment, even though i am not 21, i dont think the law every really mentions anyhting about it, however employment makes me think it does


Negative.

Check out Code of Virginia 18.2-308. One of the exceptions for concealed carry without a permit is at your place of business. I believe the language is construed to as to cover the actual owner of the business, but if it's a family-owned business then you're covered.

Regardless, though, you cannot legally conceal the pistol while en-route to your job there unless you have a CHP.

_MaH
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 8:35:06 AM EDT
i would contact your local CA. the age thing may be an issue. the way i understand the law is you can only carry concealed while you are actually working if you dont have a CHP. i could be wrong in that though.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 8:39:45 AM EDT
probably the greatest need would be when i am opening and closing the store, so i probably would have to load the gun in the car then step out? as the parking lot would be considered part of the buisness

im assuming im covered, the store is directly my families me and my mom run it, so im pretty sure im covered there

Link Posted: 11/27/2007 8:55:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 8:56:13 AM EDT by mhoffman]

Originally Posted By skate1989:
probably the greatest need would be when i am opening and closing the store, so i probably would have to load the gun in the car then step out? as the parking lot would be considered part of the buisness

im assuming im covered, the store is directly my families me and my mom run it, so im pretty sure im covered there



Not to be a grammar Nazi, but....

Punctuation. You're 18 now - an adult. Use it.

There, now that that's out of the way...

I'm sure this is something which could be found in case law, but a lot of it boils down to what's called "The Reasonable Person Test".

Examples...

I'm 18 and I work for my family-owned company which leases space in an office building along with other companies. The parking lot outside the building doesn't belong to us, but rather the landlord of the property, so it's private property under the control of another individual who doesn't have any affiliation with your business.

A reasonable person might conclude that the parking lot is, technically, NOT an extension of your family business, and therefore concealed carry requires a permit.

Another example (sounds like your situation)...

I'm 18 and I work for my family-owned company which leases space in a stand-alone building, with a parking lot on the land which is all included in the lease.

A reasonable person might conclude that the parking lot is, technically, controlled by your family's company since it's contained within the lease agreement for the property.

-=OR=-

You can avoid this entire issue by simply open carrying when leaving the store after close or walking to it during opening.

_MaH
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 8:55:40 AM EDT
"...the parking lot would be considered part of the buisness."

Legally called 'curtilage'.
As long as you are own your own proerty or property you lease you can carry concealed.
Step onto the street and you need a permit.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 8:59:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brickeyee:
"...the parking lot would be considered part of the buisness."

Legally called 'curtilage'.
As long as you are own your own proerty or property you lease you can carry concealed.
Step onto the street and you need a permit.


Sheesh, brikeyee... Way to take what I spend several paragraphs trying to explain and condense it into one simple, easy to understand, concise comment!!


GOSH!



_MaH
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 9:41:02 AM EDT
ah so if te parking lot is not the stores directly then i guess you are right, i might need to do more research into this

and let me guess the conceal carry laws mandate you must be 21 to apply for it?
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 9:57:50 AM EDT
Code of Virginia Section 18.2-308 will answer all your questions.

But here's the cliff notes:

Subsection D states:


D. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun.


There's a lot more to it, such as certain exceptions, but most pertain to military, etc. etc. The first eight words above should answer your latest question.

Subsection B states:


B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.

Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:

1. Any person while in his own place of business;


No need to go further (for the cliff notes, anyway). Also note that the "curtilage thereof" stipulation is only applied to one's "abode" (read: "residence") and is not extended to include "place of business".

So if you can prove that the parking lot is owned by your family's business, then you can make reasonable argument that the parking lot is considered to fall under the umbrella of your family's "place of business".

Click the link for all the information you could ever want (and more than you ever thought you'd need) on the matter.

_MaH
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 11:21:08 AM EDT
exactly what i needed thanks
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 11:25:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 11:25:32 AM EDT by MaverickH1]
Two thumbs up, mhoffman. Well played.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 11:42:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 11:43:50 AM EDT by mhoffman]

Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Two thumbs up, mhoffman. Well played.




I figure if my employer doesn't have any actual work for me to do, and they don't appear to be attempting to find any work for me to do, but for some strange reason they continue to keep me aboard and cut me a paycheck, I'll make myself useful to other people who actually have needs I can assist.

_MaH

ETA: "Employer" = Day Job. Not BRA. There's $#!+ to do out the @$$ down there so I'm always busy (and enjoy the change of pace from the NOTHINGNESS of day job).
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 2:13:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 2:14:36 PM EDT by kaiheitai17]
Go over to opencarry.org and check the Virginia hometown forum. There are several members there under 21 who open carry regularly. You could buy a pistol from me as a private party and there is nothing illegal about that, as long as you are a Virginia resident and also not a felon. The federal law is a person under age 21 cannot buy a pistol from an FFL dealer.

Edit to correct spelling.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 5:34:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 5:34:45 PM EDT by JustOneMore]
How does "curtilage" apply to a home? My brother is 20 and regularly open carries when he goes outside to smoke. Does curtlage apply to ones porch or yard? I understand how going out onto the sidewalk wouldnt but what is the reasonable understanding of this boundry?
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 7:33:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mhoffman:

Originally Posted By skate1989:
and i guess i can assume that open carry laws are on the same level for me too?

my family owns a jewelry store in northern VA,

can conceal carry if i am going to and from my place of employment, even though i am not 21, i dont think the law every really mentions anyhting about it, however employment makes me think it does


Negative.

Check out Code of Virginia 18.2-308. One of the exceptions for concealed carry without a permit is at your place of business. I believe the language is construed to as to cover the actual owner of the business, but if it's a family-owned business then you're covered.

Regardless, though, you cannot legally conceal the pistol while en-route to your job there unless you have a CHP.

_MaH


If an employee is permitted by an employer to carry, then an employee can while at work. Such as if you worked in a bar, and the owner gives you permission to carry concealed at the bar while working, then you can.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 2:25:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2007 2:36:14 PM EDT by v8unleashed]

Originally Posted By JustOneMore:
How does "curtilage" apply to a home? My brother is 20 and regularly open carries when he goes outside to smoke. Does curtlage apply to ones porch or yard? I understand how going out onto the sidewalk wouldnt but what is the reasonable understanding of this boundry?


Curtilage would definitely be the porch. The yard, maybe. It has to do with a broader legal concept of the home itself, and is another building or section of property that is intimately tied to the home. If you have a detached garage, that is curtilage. The path from one to the other is too. The definition doesn't just extend the full dimensions of the property. In some states you have no duty to retreat, BUT ONLY if someone is in your home or curtilage -- for example, how could you possibly retreat from your garage to your house (or defend your family in the house if you are in the garage) if someone is standing in the direct line between them?

But your brother is still on your private property, it sounds like. Meaning he can conceal/open carry as he likes.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 7:45:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DougR:
Not sure about VA, but the feds say this about gifts:


Page 165, under straw purchases of the 2005-2006 ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Guide states:

"Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in this instance. If Mr. Jones bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473."


Now the next question is about you being 18. I am thinking that is legal as a parent can give a child his own hunting rifle, but I gotta go check that out. Anyway, wish I had a relative who gave me good gifts.


Crikey- I wish someone at VA had known about this last year...they could've saved me a trip to Greentop/and sold a shotgun at the sametime


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