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Posted: 10/23/2013 6:48:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2013 10:00:17 AM EDT by georgiagun]
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/23/Calif-Sheriffs-deputies-shoot--kill-13-year-old

Edit to include **Now with more real Facts**
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 7:11:36 AM EDT
Hot

kid was holding a replica "assault weapon"

No one get too upset, all officers involved made it home safely.
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 8:20:36 AM EDT
"Replica assault weapon"

Airsoft?

Link Posted: 10/23/2013 8:29:08 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TerryC:
"Replica assault weapon"

Airsoft?

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Toy.

Link Posted: 10/23/2013 2:05:00 PM EDT
Yet another what?
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 2:11:30 PM EDT
Isolated Incident
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 2:54:13 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By P806:


Isolated Incident
View Quote




 
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 3:39:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2013 3:49:02 PM EDT by cmshoot]
I do not know all the facts in this case, only what the media has reported on so far.   I haven't seen pictures of the replica weapons involved to make a determination as to how "realistic" they are. I don't know what the kid's demeanor and actions were, I.e., was he verbally threatening, did he point one of the weapons at the officers, etc.  I don't know what the officers' actions were prior to the shooting.

I could see where this case could easily go either way, depending on the facts. The police could have jumped the gun and acted inappropriately, or the kid could have had very realistic-looking weapons and acted in a threatening manner.  I know I wouldn't give someone a chance to fire an AK at me first, especially if I was armed with a handgun. I met some 13 year olds in Mogadishu that could run an AK pretty damn well.  My 10YOA daughter hasn't run my AK yet, but she can load, unload and operate my M4.

If the officers' statements are true, why didn't he drop the "weapons"?  It is possible that the kid himself thought the weapons were real.......I've seen that before. This could easily be a case where mistakes were made by all involved.

Whatever the outcome is, it's a damn shame.

The article itself uses both "toy gun" and "replica assault rifle". Could have been a cheap ass toy, could have been an Airsoft, could have been a metal and wood replica "wall hanger" with a demilled receiver.

When I was in Mogadishu, a 10YOA boy approached one of the aid stations that was manned by US Marines. Food was being distributed and Navy corpsman were providing medical care. The 10YOA had what appeared to be an IED strapped to his torso.  He was crying and begging the Marines not to shoot him, but he refused all their commands to stop where he was and lie on the ground. Over 20 commands were given, to no avail. A Marine Corporal on the scene had ordered the other Marines not to shoot, that he was the only one to shoot. When the 10YOA kept getting closer, the Corporal shot and killed him with one shot.  Turns out, the IED was a phony, it was staged for anti-American propaganda. Was that a bad shooting?
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 3:49:11 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cmshoot:
I do not know all the facts in this case, only what the media has reported on so far.   I haven't seen pictures of the replica weapons involved to make a determination as to how "realistic" they are. I don't know what the kid's demeanor and actions were, I.e., was he verbally threatening, did he point one of the weapons at the officers, etc.  I don't know what the officers' actions were prior to the shooting.

I could see where this case could easily go either way, depending on the facts. The police could have jumped the gun and acted inappropriately, or the kid could have had very realistic-looking weapons and acted in a threatening manner.  I know I wouldn't give someone a chance to fire an AK at me first, especially if I was armed with a handgun. I met some 13 year olds in Mogadishu that could run an AK pretty damn well.  My 10YOA daughter hasn't run my AK yet, but she can load, unload and operate my M4.

If the officers' statements are true, why didn't he drop the "weapons"?  It is possible that the kid himself thought the weapons were real.......I've seen that before. This could easily be a case where mistakes were made by all involved.

Whatever the outcome is, it's a damn shame.

When I was in Mogadishu, a 10YOA boy approached one of the aid stations that was manned by US Marines. Food was being distributed and Navy corpsman were providing medical care. The 10YOA had what appeared to be an IED strapped to his torso.  He was crying and begging the Marines not to shoot him, but he refused all their commands to stop where he was and lie on the ground. Over 20 commands were given, to no avail. A Marine Corporal on the scene had ordered the other Marines not to shoot, that he was the only one to shoot. When the 10YOA kept getting closer, the Corporal shot and killed him with one shot.  Turns out, the IED was a phony, it was staged for anti-American propaganda. Was that a bad shooting?
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GTFO of here with that common sense BS......it ain't welcome here!!!!
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 3:56:53 PM EDT
Well, having once been a 13yo boy who ran around with guns all the time including BB guns and realistic looking toys, I am going to side with the cops on this one. I encountered a few cops at that age and even had my BB gun confiscated by one. I would always drop it as soon as I saw the officers. No verbal commands needed, no pointing it at them, etc. At 13 you know what a cop looks like. Unless the kid turns out to be specials needs, which would be horribly tragic, sounds like he was in the wrong.  Still lots of unanswered questions in the story.
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 4:42:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 4:55:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greglat1:
Well, having once been a 13yo boy who ran around with guns all the time including BB guns and realistic looking toys, I am going to side with the cops on this one. I encountered a few cops at that age and even had my BB gun confiscated by one. I would always drop it as soon as I saw the officers. No verbal commands needed, no pointing it at them, etc. At 13 you know what a cop looks like. Unless the kid turns out to be specials needs, which would be horribly tragic, sounds like he was in the wrong.  Still lots of unanswered questions in the story.
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i think the issue is back when most of us were growing up BB guns, play guns, that looked real were OK, and the police didn't have to fear thugs everywhere. i remember playing "war" and a sheriff riding by and acting like he was shooting us with his figure, of coarse we played back and had a "shoot out" with him. back then it was no big deal, now who knows what the next threat is. i'm sure said sheriff would have been fired today.
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 4:56:38 PM EDT





The one on the right is the one the youth was carrying.




What the media isn't telling you is that he was also wearing gang colors and was approaching a school.  




I have other details from a primary source.  I'll hold back on them to see what else asserts itself here.
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 5:03:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2013 5:06:38 PM EDT by cmshoot]
Pretty damn realistic looking, especially with all the variations and modifications out there.

"......all officers involved made it home safely".  Give me a fuckin' break.
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 5:28:42 PM EDT
Got a call a couple of years ago of a lone male lying in the woodline of a golf course dressed in camo and what appeared to be a military style vest and what appeared to be a rifle.  Middle of summer, very nice golf community.  3 of us arrived on scene and parked a couple of hundred yards away and began our approach. Each of us had ar15s. About 75 yards out saw the person in the wood line, he had not seen us. Dressed fully in black with vest and rifle.  Gave verbal commands repeatedly and began approach with raised ar15s.  Luckily the person tossed the rifle and stayed prone with hands out.  As we got closser about 6 others dressed similarly came over the hill to see what the yelling was about.  A group of neighborhood kids playing war with tricked out airsoft rifles, could have gotten really ugly.  Thank God the first kid (15 years old but 6'1) had a case of the act right and didnt take it as a game.  Like I said earlier, nice golf community and these kids spared no expense on these air soft rifles.  Got the kids together and layed the rifles aside and had a good heart to heart and a lot of laughs to bring down tensions, on both sides.  Called all the parents and had them respond to the scene.  Mixed our unloaded rifles in with the kids rifles and asked the parents to tell us what was real and what wasnt.  Without picking them up they couldnt tell.  I'm not an air soft person, but man these things look exactly like real fire arms.  What ever happened to the red or orange painted tips?
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 5:34:48 PM EDT
Looks like he cut off the front...usually where an orange marker would signify fake. Not the smartest move if you're purely into it for fun.
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 5:40:18 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JLW:
http://gallery.pressdemocrat.com/gallery/20131022.102209995/img003-big.jpg

The one on the right is the one the youth was carrying.

What the media isn't telling you is that he was also wearing gang colors and was approaching a school.  

I have other details from a primary source.  I'll hold back on them to see what else asserts itself here.
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Good shoot
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 6:37:22 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By jeffco55:
Good shoot
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Originally Posted By jeffco55:



Originally Posted By JLW:

http://gallery.pressdemocrat.com/gallery/20131022.102209995/img003-big.jpg



The one on the right is the one the youth was carrying.



What the media isn't telling you is that he was also wearing gang colors and was approaching a school.  



I have other details from a primary source.  I'll hold back on them to see what else asserts itself here.





Good shoot
Wait, what. Jeffco, I appreciate your willingness to admit we're you could have possibly been wrong. With all the police threads you've started lately, I was beginning to wonder if your didn't just troll for cop bashing.

 
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 6:52:24 PM EDT
I almost shot a kid with a bb pistol one night. He dropped it just as I was starting to press the trigger.





I think he shat himself.
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 7:21:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2013 8:00:32 PM EDT by treedawg]
I'm torn of this one and I'll leave it at that....

It would be easy enough to take either side in a debate.

td
Link Posted: 10/23/2013 8:58:35 PM EDT
Here's another pic, but in worse light then a conference room



I hope nobody ever points anything like that at me. Feel bad for all involved.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 2:23:42 AM EDT
How is it a good shoot if you believe in open carry?  Was the kid committing a crime other than standing there? Despite them charging kids as adults kids do not think or reason as an adult should. Thats the distintion between and adult and a minor. He may not have even understood the commands depending on the language.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 3:16:16 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By j3_:
How is it a good shoot if you believe in open carry?  Was the kid committing a crime other than standing there? Despite them charging kids as adults kids do not think or reason as an adult should. Thats the distintion between and adult and a minor. He may not have even understood the commands depending on the language.
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Cops uniforms are the same in any language. You are carrying a very real looking gun and the cops are yelling at you.  No matter what the language I think I would put the gun down.  
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 3:33:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2013 3:34:05 AM EDT by j3_]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greglat1:


Cops uniforms are the same in any language. You are carrying a very real looking gun and the cops are yelling at you.  No matter what the language I think I would put the gun down.  
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Originally Posted By Greglat1:
Originally Posted By j3_:
How is it a good shoot if you believe in open carry?  Was the kid committing a crime other than standing there? Despite them charging kids as adults kids do not think or reason as an adult should. That's the distinction between and adult and a minor. He may not have even understood the commands depending on the language.


Cops uniforms are the same in any language. You are carrying a very real looking gun and the cops are yelling at you.  No matter what the language I think I would put the gun down.  

Why were they even bothering him? Every boy I grew up with would probably be dead if the same mentality was prevalent when we grew up as is now. All we did most times was play something that had to do with a toy gun and shooting each other up till we were this kids age  and were given real guns to shoot and keep over our beds in gun racks. Kids do not think or make good  judgements as an adult should. It is up to the adult to make the proper decision which was not done here.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 4:34:13 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cmshoot:
I do not know all the facts in this case, only what the media has reported on so far.   I haven't seen pictures of the replica weapons involved to make a determination as to how "realistic" they are. I don't know what the kid's demeanor and actions were, I.e., was he verbally threatening, did he point one of the weapons at the officers, etc.  I don't know what the officers' actions were prior to the shooting.

I could see where this case could easily go either way, depending on the facts. The police could have jumped the gun and acted inappropriately, or the kid could have had very realistic-looking weapons and acted in a threatening manner.  I know I wouldn't give someone a chance to fire an AK at me first, especially if I was armed with a handgun. I met some 13 year olds in Mogadishu that could run an AK pretty damn well.  My 10YOA daughter hasn't run my AK yet, but she can load, unload and operate my M4.

If the officers' statements are true, why didn't he drop the "weapons"?  It is possible that the kid himself thought the weapons were real.......I've seen that before. This could easily be a case where mistakes were made by all involved.

Whatever the outcome is, it's a damn shame.

The article itself uses both "toy gun" and "replica assault rifle". Could have been a cheap ass toy, could have been an Airsoft, could have been a metal and wood replica "wall hanger" with a demilled receiver.

When I was in Mogadishu, a 10YOA boy approached one of the aid stations that was manned by US Marines. Food was being distributed and Navy corpsman were providing medical care. The 10YOA had what appeared to be an IED strapped to his torso.  He was crying and begging the Marines not to shoot him, but he refused all their commands to stop where he was and lie on the ground. Over 20 commands were given, to no avail. A Marine Corporal on the scene had ordered the other Marines not to shoot, that he was the only one to shoot. When the 10YOA kept getting closer, the Corporal shot and killed him with one shot.  Turns out, the IED was a phony, it was staged for anti-American propaganda. Was that a bad shooting?
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So your comparing military personal in a war zone to cops in a suburban American City?? I believe you just made my many points for me with that comparison. Our law enforcement has become military. And that is not constitutionally allowed.

Now I didn't post any opinions when I put this up because the facts weren't very clear. But after reading and hearing one side..... the cops who LIVED. I guess we will never hear the other persons side cause he is DEAD.

I am still inclined after seeing the massive evidence of police officers "fudging" their details of a shoot that I will lean towards exactly what you did, comparing them to the military on our civilian streets.

Link Posted: 10/24/2013 4:51:24 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By j3_:





Why were they even bothering him? Every boy I grew up with would probably be dead if the same mentality was prevalent when we grew up as is now. All we did most times was play something that had to do with a toy gun and shooting each other up till we were this kids age  and were given real guns to shoot and keep over our beds in gun racks. Kids do not think or make good  judgements as an adult should. It is up to the adult to make the proper decision which was not done here.
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Originally Posted By j3_:



Originally Posted By Greglat1:


Originally Posted By j3_:

How is it a good shoot if you believe in open carry?  Was the kid committing a crime other than standing there? Despite them charging kids as adults kids do not think or reason as an adult should. That's the distinction between and adult and a minor. He may not have even understood the commands depending on the language.




Cops uniforms are the same in any language. You are carrying a very real looking gun and the cops are yelling at you.  No matter what the language I think I would put the gun down.  



Why were they even bothering him? Every boy I grew up with would probably be dead if the same mentality was prevalent when we grew up as is now. All we did most times was play something that had to do with a toy gun and shooting each other up till we were this kids age  and were given real guns to shoot and keep over our beds in gun racks. Kids do not think or make good  judgements as an adult should. It is up to the adult to make the proper decision which was not done here.




 



Did you grow up in Sureno gang territory?
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 4:53:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2013 4:54:21 AM EDT by JLW]
The youth:













I wouldn't have guessed 13 from this picture.  I most certainly wouldn't have guessed that young seeing him toting what very much looked to be an AK47.

 
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 5:24:19 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JLW:
The youth:

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2013/10/23/6c/f5/7647fc6b2ce34f4ba5008931dcf2df1c-2047dd4b47484d4cbb755a5611a92828-1.jpg


I wouldn't have guessed 13 from this picture.  I most certainly wouldn't have guessed that young seeing him toting what very much looked to be an AK47.
 
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But hopefully you would have guessed he still had his 2nd Amendment rights.....
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 5:36:43 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By georgiagun:
But hopefully you would have guessed he still had his 2nd Amendment rights.....

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Originally Posted By georgiagun:



Originally Posted By JLW:

The youth:



http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2013/10/23/6c/f5/7647fc6b2ce34f4ba5008931dcf2df1c-2047dd4b47484d4cbb755a5611a92828-1.jpg





I wouldn't have guessed 13 from this picture.  I most certainly wouldn't have guessed that young seeing him toting what very much looked to be an AK47.

 




But hopefully you would have guessed he still had his 2nd Amendment rights.....





 
In my jurisdiction, a teenager walking down the road toting a rifle this time of year is going deer hunting.




In my jurisdiction, we aren't dealing with a constant gang issues.  The youth was dressed in gang colors.  The police there had in the last week had several cases involving members of that gang armed with AK47s.




The youth in question had been kicked out of regular school and placed in an alternative school.  On the day of the shooting, he had been been kicked out of the alternative school.




I'm still holding back some details.  
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 5:55:54 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By georgiagun:
But hopefully you would have guessed he still had his 2nd Amendment rights.....
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This doesn't have anything to do with 2A in my opinion. If someone points a perceived weapon at you then you are justified in returning fire. Obviously defusing the situation utilizing another method is preferred but we don't know the details of the situation.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:09:09 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By jeffco55:


Good shoot
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Originally Posted By jeffco55:
Originally Posted By JLW:
http://gallery.pressdemocrat.com/gallery/20131022.102209995/img003-big.jpg

The one on the right is the one the youth was carrying.

What the media isn't telling you is that he was also wearing gang colors and was approaching a school.  

I have other details from a primary source.  I'll hold back on them to see what else asserts itself here.


Good shoot

Gonna screen capture this, never thought I'd see the day
I keed
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:35:15 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JLW:

  In my jurisdiction, a teenager walking down the road toting a rifle this time of year is going deer hunting.

In my jurisdiction, we aren't dealing with a constant gang issues.  The youth was dressed in gang colors.  The police there had in the last week had several cases involving members of that gang armed with AK47s.

The youth in question had been kicked out of regular school and placed in an alternative school.  On the day of the shooting, he had been been kicked out of the alternative school.

I'm still holding back some details.  
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Originally Posted By JLW:
Originally Posted By georgiagun:
Originally Posted By JLW:
The youth:

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2013/10/23/6c/f5/7647fc6b2ce34f4ba5008931dcf2df1c-2047dd4b47484d4cbb755a5611a92828-1.jpg


I wouldn't have guessed 13 from this picture.  I most certainly wouldn't have guessed that young seeing him toting what very much looked to be an AK47.
 


But hopefully you would have guessed he still had his 2nd Amendment rights.....

  In my jurisdiction, a teenager walking down the road toting a rifle this time of year is going deer hunting.

In my jurisdiction, we aren't dealing with a constant gang issues.  The youth was dressed in gang colors.  The police there had in the last week had several cases involving members of that gang armed with AK47s.

The youth in question had been kicked out of regular school and placed in an alternative school.  On the day of the shooting, he had been been kicked out of the alternative school.

I'm still holding back some details.  


Oh I get it now..... our rights are subject to interpretation. Based on jurisdiction. Hold on while while I pencil that into the constitution.

We either have the rights or we don't. While I don't agree with what this kid did. I could easily see my 13 year old... who is 5'10" and looks at least 16-18 to most people, walking around my yard with what looks just like a "scoped sniper rifle" and being in a similar situation. Mainly because I task him with killing all my squirrels and he routinely walks around with a very nice scoped pellet rifle. Now granted this is in middle class suburbs full of taxpaying voters, but it scares the hell out of me that cops are now acting in military style stop and shoot tactics. So again I will say we either have the rights or not...... and I for one want my rights back. And want them back for everyone. I know the risk and that is what we accept as citizens of this great country. It is not up to jurisdiction or other flimsy circumstances to change what we were given by God. (our rights were given to us by God, not by the government)

Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:35:26 AM EDT
Ok, so we'll never know all the details because we weren't there. But this is the same crowd that crowned George Zimmerman a CC hero and let him off the hook with the same "one side of the story". So just because these guys are cops you're taking the other side? Hell, if Trayvon was carrying an Airsoft AK George would've never even gone to court!

That thing looks real, so to the Officers involved, it WAS real. If he had "muzzle discipline" and was pointing it at the ground when they were yelling at him, they should never have shot him. However, no matter my rights, if several cops have guns drawn on me and are ordering me to drop my (legally held) rifle, I would drop it. I prefer to live and sort out "who's right/wrong" later.

Bases on the details provided so far, my assumption is a justified shoot. But a tragic outcome no less.

Link Posted: 10/24/2013 8:44:02 AM EDT
I've been on on the "good shoot" side of this since I first heard of it.  First, a teenager shouldn't be toting around any kind of firearn without being escorted by an adult.  Teenagers don't have any 2A rights that I'm aware of.  Second, if you're carrying any kind of implement that could be mistaken for a firearm, and a cop orders you to lay it down, you lay it the fuck down first, and explain what it is to the cop later.  Third, not having been there, it's possible that the cops jumped the gun, but if that's the case, it's highly likely that if I HAD been there I would have jumped the gun also.  Stupid games, stupid prizes.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 9:27:54 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By jakoury256:

Gonna screen capture this, never thought I'd see the day
I keed
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Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Originally Posted By jeffco55:
Originally Posted By JLW:
http://gallery.pressdemocrat.com/gallery/20131022.102209995/img003-big.jpg

The one on the right is the one the youth was carrying.

What the media isn't telling you is that he was also wearing gang colors and was approaching a school.  

I have other details from a primary source.  I'll hold back on them to see what else asserts itself here.


Good shoot

Gonna screen capture this, never thought I'd see the day
I keed

Hey, youth in gang territory, wearing gang colors, points what looks like an AK at me and refuses to drop, I'm shooting too.

I fully understand that a big majority of cops are on the straight and narrow, my only beef with the majority of cops is their lack of willingness to overtly ostracize the shitheads in their ranks.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 9:35:07 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ceetee:
I've been on on the "good shoot" side of this since I first heard of it.  First, a teenager shouldn't be toting around any kind of firearn without being escorted by an adult.  Teenagers don't have any 2A rights that I'm aware of.  Second, if you're carrying any kind of implement that could be mistaken for a firearm, and a cop orders you to lay it down, you lay it the fuck down first, and explain what it is to the cop later.  Third, not having been there, it's possible that the cops jumped the gun, but if that's the case, it's highly likely that if I HAD been there I would have jumped the gun also.  Stupid games, stupid prizes.
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1. I am willing to bet there are a lot of seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen year olds who have fought and died for the constitution over the last 200+ years that might disagree with you taking away their 2A rights. Even GA allows teenagers to hunt alone and not under "Adult Supervision" after completing the hunter education course. So are you saying they should make that illegal too??

2. Blindly following law enforcement commands is what has gotten us to the point we are today. Cops feel they can do anything and expect everyone to comply or they can start slinging lead. That is the most gross abuse of power we see on almost a daily basis. Plus if you have been reading these stories over the last few years there are numerous cases where the person did comply and was shot and killed, tasered, attacked, assaulted and otherwise violated. I can Google up the links if you need to see them.

3. As you stated lastly you might have done the same thing and even said you might would have jumped the gun. I surely hope you are not allowed a badge and a gun in my great state of Georgia...... Well let me set the stage for you.... you come to my house. I answer the door and my son comes around the corner with what looks like a sniper rifle. (cause he's been plinking squirrels. You order him to drop it, he is 13 and freezes up and doesn't comply quick enough he is confused and scared. He turns to look at me or even worse starts to walk to me because I am his father and it is my responsibility to protect him. You draw and shoot him...... anything I write after this would not be COC compliant.

I am not defending this kids actions, but I AM condemning the officers use of force that has become epidemic and is quickly turning the general public away from those we used to hope would protect us.....


Link Posted: 10/24/2013 10:28:24 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By georgiagun:
1. I am willing to bet there are a lot of seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen year olds who have fought and died for the constitution over the last 200+ years that might disagree with you taking away their 2A rights. Even GA allows teenagers to hunt alone and not under "Adult Supervision" after completing the hunter education course. So are you saying they should make that illegal too??



2. Blindly following law enforcement commands is what has gotten us to the point we are today. Cops feel they can do anything and expect everyone to comply or they can start slinging lead. That is the most gross abuse of power we see on almost a daily basis. Plus if you have been reading these stories over the last few years there are numerous cases where the person did comply and was shot and killed, tasered, attacked, assaulted and otherwise violated. I can Google up the links if you need to see them.



3. As you stated lastly you might have done the same thing and even said you might would have jumped the gun. I surely hope you are not allowed a badge and a gun in my great state of Georgia...... Well let me set the stage for you.... you come to my house. I answer the door and my son comes around the corner with what looks like a sniper rifle. (cause he's been plinking squirrels. You order him to drop it, he is 13 and freezes up and doesn't comply quick enough he is confused and scared. He turns to look at me or even worse starts to walk to me because I am his father and it is my responsibility to protect him. You draw and shoot him...... anything I write after this would not be COC compliant.



I am not defending this kids actions, but I AM condemning the officers use of force that has become epidemic and is quickly turning the general public away from those we used to hope would protect us.....





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Originally Posted By georgiagun:



Originally Posted By ceetee:

I've been on on the "good shoot" side of this since I first heard of it.  First, a teenager shouldn't be toting around any kind of firearn without being escorted by an adult.  Teenagers don't have any 2A rights that I'm aware of.  Second, if you're carrying any kind of implement that could be mistaken for a firearm, and a cop orders you to lay it down, you lay it the fuck down first, and explain what it is to the cop later.  Third, not having been there, it's possible that the cops jumped the gun, but if that's the case, it's highly likely that if I HAD been there I would have jumped the gun also.  Stupid games, stupid prizes.






1. I am willing to bet there are a lot of seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen year olds who have fought and died for the constitution over the last 200+ years that might disagree with you taking away their 2A rights. Even GA allows teenagers to hunt alone and not under "Adult Supervision" after completing the hunter education course. So are you saying they should make that illegal too??



2. Blindly following law enforcement commands is what has gotten us to the point we are today. Cops feel they can do anything and expect everyone to comply or they can start slinging lead. That is the most gross abuse of power we see on almost a daily basis. Plus if you have been reading these stories over the last few years there are numerous cases where the person did comply and was shot and killed, tasered, attacked, assaulted and otherwise violated. I can Google up the links if you need to see them.



3. As you stated lastly you might have done the same thing and even said you might would have jumped the gun. I surely hope you are not allowed a badge and a gun in my great state of Georgia...... Well let me set the stage for you.... you come to my house. I answer the door and my son comes around the corner with what looks like a sniper rifle. (cause he's been plinking squirrels. You order him to drop it, he is 13 and freezes up and doesn't comply quick enough he is confused and scared. He turns to look at me or even worse starts to walk to me because I am his father and it is my responsibility to protect him. You draw and shoot him...... anything I write after this would not be COC compliant.



I am not defending this kids actions, but I AM condemning the officers use of force that has become epidemic and is quickly turning the general public away from those we used to hope would protect us.....





I read your replie and all I can think of is the video of the officer who was reprimanded for being to quick to pull his weapon. His next threat was a traffic stop where he was executed by a guy with a rifle. He told the guy several times to drop it. Well, he dropped the hammer instead. Murdered the deputy on the side of the road.

 
I see this like the first amendment, you have the right to free speech but you'll pay the consequences for that speech also. Yell fire in a theater, pull a Dixie chicks. You have the right to keep and bear arms, but use some common sense. Don't invite the man into your life. You look like a gang banger, carrying a ak47, in gang territory expect to get hassled or shot.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 10:58:09 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By cpl0313:
I read your replie and all I can think of is the video of the officer who was reprimanded for being to quick to pull his weapon. His next threat was a traffic stop where he was executed by a guy with a rifle. He told the guy several times to drop it. Well, he dropped the hammer instead. Murdered the deputy on the side of the road.    I see this like the first amendment, you have the right to free speech but you'll pay the consequences for that speech also. Yell fire in a theater, pull a Dixie chicks. You have the right to keep and bear arms, but use some common sense. Don't invite the man into your life. You look like a gang banger, carrying a ak47, in gang territory expect to get hassled or shot.
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Originally Posted By cpl0313:
Originally Posted By georgiagun:
Originally Posted By ceetee:
I've been on on the "good shoot" side of this since I first heard of it.  First, a teenager shouldn't be toting around any kind of firearn without being escorted by an adult.  Teenagers don't have any 2A rights that I'm aware of.  Second, if you're carrying any kind of implement that could be mistaken for a firearm, and a cop orders you to lay it down, you lay it the fuck down first, and explain what it is to the cop later.  Third, not having been there, it's possible that the cops jumped the gun, but if that's the case, it's highly likely that if I HAD been there I would have jumped the gun also.  Stupid games, stupid prizes.



1. I am willing to bet there are a lot of seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen year olds who have fought and died for the constitution over the last 200+ years that might disagree with you taking away their 2A rights. Even GA allows teenagers to hunt alone and not under "Adult Supervision" after completing the hunter education course. So are you saying they should make that illegal too??

2. Blindly following law enforcement commands is what has gotten us to the point we are today. Cops feel they can do anything and expect everyone to comply or they can start slinging lead. That is the most gross abuse of power we see on almost a daily basis. Plus if you have been reading these stories over the last few years there are numerous cases where the person did comply and was shot and killed, tasered, attacked, assaulted and otherwise violated. I can Google up the links if you need to see them.

3. As you stated lastly you might have done the same thing and even said you might would have jumped the gun. I surely hope you are not allowed a badge and a gun in my great state of Georgia...... Well let me set the stage for you.... you come to my house. I answer the door and my son comes around the corner with what looks like a sniper rifle. (cause he's been plinking squirrels. You order him to drop it, he is 13 and freezes up and doesn't comply quick enough he is confused and scared. He turns to look at me or even worse starts to walk to me because I am his father and it is my responsibility to protect him. You draw and shoot him...... anything I write after this would not be COC compliant.

I am not defending this kids actions, but I AM condemning the officers use of force that has become epidemic and is quickly turning the general public away from those we used to hope would protect us.....


I read your replie and all I can think of is the video of the officer who was reprimanded for being to quick to pull his weapon. His next threat was a traffic stop where he was executed by a guy with a rifle. He told the guy several times to drop it. Well, he dropped the hammer instead. Murdered the deputy on the side of the road.    I see this like the first amendment, you have the right to free speech but you'll pay the consequences for that speech also. Yell fire in a theater, pull a Dixie chicks. You have the right to keep and bear arms, but use some common sense. Don't invite the man into your life. You look like a gang banger, carrying a ak47, in gang territory expect to get hassled or shot.


I can respect that stance. Common Sense has been missing from the equation for a while now.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 1:32:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By j3_:
How is it a good shoot if you believe in open carry?  Was the kid committing a crime other than standing there? Despite them charging kids as adults kids do not think or reason as an adult should. Thats the distintion between and adult and a minor. He may not have even understood the commands depending on the language.
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Men in police uniforms, weapons drawn and pointed, and yelling at me is universal language for "put whatever you have down or you're going to get shot."  If I was in their position and someone pointed what looked like a real AK at me (per MSN), I can't say I would have reacted any differently based on the info I had in that moment.

Sadly, the kid's stupidity was terminal and these LEOs will carry a lot of weight with them for a while.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 2:10:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2013 2:47:32 PM EDT by j3_]
If the kid did something like pointing it at them like it was real maybe. Other wise I feel someone over reacted. Because someone does not immediately obey some order for whatever reason should not be justification to shoot them. Being in some gang ridden area with a toy gun is not justification to shoot someone. I guess walking up to them and seeing what was really happening was out of the question?
As I said about everyone I grew up with would be dead if we grew up under these rules. But we never got shot walking over to the woods behind the school to shoot real firearms unescorted by adults as young teenagers. Cops never stopped while we were shooting at each other with toy guns in the fields across from our neighbor hood. Some reason they just drove on by. They never shot or even beat up either of my under age friends that ran from them regularly on their motorcycles when they got caught riding them on the street. They seemed satisfied with just the victory of catching them occasionally. Minors do not have the reasoning abilities of adults. If they did there would be no reason for separate rules between the two and when and what they could do in life.
Of course I did not grow up in a gang ridden area. Just a small ordinary Southern town where, before we all were 18, out of just the 12 or so that were in our group at one time or the other two committed murder and were convicted, one robbed a gun dealer and got 5 years in a Florida youth center, two got caught stealing a car and went to YDC for a while. The rest just got dui's and minor drug convictions. But none were shot by the police in their apprehension.
Best I remember two of us did manage to graduate high school. Three if you count the one that got his GED at youth prison
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 2:15:33 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By georgiagun:
Oh I get it now..... our rights are subject to interpretation. Based on jurisdiction. Hold on while while I pencil that into the constitution.



We either have the rights or we don't. While I don't agree with what this kid did. I could easily see my 13 year old... who is 5'10" and looks at least 16-18 to most people, walking around my yard with what looks just like a "scoped sniper rifle" and being in a similar situation. Mainly because I task him with killing all my squirrels and he routinely walks around with a very nice scoped pellet rifle. Now granted this is in middle class suburbs full of taxpaying voters, but it scares the hell out of me that cops are now acting in military style stop and shoot tactics. So again I will say we either have the rights or not...... and I for one want my rights back. And want them back for everyone. I know the risk and that is what we accept as citizens of this great country. It is not up to jurisdiction or other flimsy circumstances to change what we were given by God. (our rights were given to us by God, not by the government)



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Originally Posted By georgiagun:



Originally Posted By JLW:


Originally Posted By georgiagun:


Originally Posted By JLW:

The youth:



http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2013/10/23/6c/f5/7647fc6b2ce34f4ba5008931dcf2df1c-2047dd4b47484d4cbb755a5611a92828-1.jpg





I wouldn't have guessed 13 from this picture.  I most certainly wouldn't have guessed that young seeing him toting what very much looked to be an AK47.

 




But hopefully you would have guessed he still had his 2nd Amendment rights.....



  In my jurisdiction, a teenager walking down the road toting a rifle this time of year is going deer hunting.



In my jurisdiction, we aren't dealing with a constant gang issues.  The youth was dressed in gang colors.  The police there had in the last week had several cases involving members of that gang armed with AK47s.



The youth in question had been kicked out of regular school and placed in an alternative school.  On the day of the shooting, he had been been kicked out of the alternative school.



I'm still holding back some details.  





Oh I get it now..... our rights are subject to interpretation. Based on jurisdiction. Hold on while while I pencil that into the constitution.



We either have the rights or we don't. While I don't agree with what this kid did. I could easily see my 13 year old... who is 5'10" and looks at least 16-18 to most people, walking around my yard with what looks just like a "scoped sniper rifle" and being in a similar situation. Mainly because I task him with killing all my squirrels and he routinely walks around with a very nice scoped pellet rifle. Now granted this is in middle class suburbs full of taxpaying voters, but it scares the hell out of me that cops are now acting in military style stop and shoot tactics. So again I will say we either have the rights or not...... and I for one want my rights back. And want them back for everyone. I know the risk and that is what we accept as citizens of this great country. It is not up to jurisdiction or other flimsy circumstances to change what we were given by God. (our rights were given to us by God, not by the government)







 
I don't have the time or patience right now to explain the definition and concept of reasonable articulable suspicion.  You can google the term.  Also please google the Courts rulings on gang activity and "armed and presently" dangerous as it relates to a tier two encounter.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 3:26:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JLW:

  I don't have the time or patience right now to explain the definition and concept of reasonable articulable suspicion.  You can google the term.  Also please google the Courts rulings on gang activity and "armed and presently" dangerous as it relates to a tier two encounter.
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Originally Posted By JLW:
Originally Posted By georgiagun:
Originally Posted By JLW:
Originally Posted By georgiagun:
Originally Posted By JLW:
The youth:

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2013/10/23/6c/f5/7647fc6b2ce34f4ba5008931dcf2df1c-2047dd4b47484d4cbb755a5611a92828-1.jpg


I wouldn't have guessed 13 from this picture.  I most certainly wouldn't have guessed that young seeing him toting what very much looked to be an AK47.
 


But hopefully you would have guessed he still had his 2nd Amendment rights.....

  In my jurisdiction, a teenager walking down the road toting a rifle this time of year is going deer hunting.

In my jurisdiction, we aren't dealing with a constant gang issues.  The youth was dressed in gang colors.  The police there had in the last week had several cases involving members of that gang armed with AK47s.

The youth in question had been kicked out of regular school and placed in an alternative school.  On the day of the shooting, he had been been kicked out of the alternative school.

I'm still holding back some details.  


Oh I get it now..... our rights are subject to interpretation. Based on jurisdiction. Hold on while while I pencil that into the constitution.

We either have the rights or we don't. While I don't agree with what this kid did. I could easily see my 13 year old... who is 5'10" and looks at least 16-18 to most people, walking around my yard with what looks just like a "scoped sniper rifle" and being in a similar situation. Mainly because I task him with killing all my squirrels and he routinely walks around with a very nice scoped pellet rifle. Now granted this is in middle class suburbs full of taxpaying voters, but it scares the hell out of me that cops are now acting in military style stop and shoot tactics. So again I will say we either have the rights or not...... and I for one want my rights back. And want them back for everyone. I know the risk and that is what we accept as citizens of this great country. It is not up to jurisdiction or other flimsy circumstances to change what we were given by God. (our rights were given to us by God, not by the government)


  I don't have the time or patience right now to explain the definition and concept of reasonable articulable suspicion.  You can google the term.  Also please google the Courts rulings on gang activity and "armed and presently" dangerous as it relates to a tier two encounter.


I will google those if you will google the bill of rights. And the constitition of the united states of america..... always a good read to refresh peoples ideas of what freedom really is like.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 4:06:09 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By georgiagun:



I will google those if you will google the bill of rights. And the constitition of the united states of america..... always a good read to refresh peoples ideas of what freedom really is like.

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I'll well acquainted with both without having to google them.  You have a wonderful evening.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:38:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JLW:

  I don't have the time or patience right now to explain the definition and concept of reasonable articulable suspicion.  You can google the term.  Also please google the Courts rulings on gang activity and "armed and presently" dangerous as it relates to a tier two encounter.
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Originally Posted By JLW:
Originally Posted By georgiagun:
Originally Posted By JLW:
Originally Posted By georgiagun:
Originally Posted By JLW:
The youth:

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2013/10/23/6c/f5/7647fc6b2ce34f4ba5008931dcf2df1c-2047dd4b47484d4cbb755a5611a92828-1.jpg


I wouldn't have guessed 13 from this picture.  I most certainly wouldn't have guessed that young seeing him toting what very much looked to be an AK47.
 


But hopefully you would have guessed he still had his 2nd Amendment rights.....

  In my jurisdiction, a teenager walking down the road toting a rifle this time of year is going deer hunting.

In my jurisdiction, we aren't dealing with a constant gang issues.  The youth was dressed in gang colors.  The police there had in the last week had several cases involving members of that gang armed with AK47s.

The youth in question had been kicked out of regular school and placed in an alternative school.  On the day of the shooting, he had been been kicked out of the alternative school.

I'm still holding back some details.  


Oh I get it now..... our rights are subject to interpretation. Based on jurisdiction. Hold on while while I pencil that into the constitution.

We either have the rights or we don't. While I don't agree with what this kid did. I could easily see my 13 year old... who is 5'10" and looks at least 16-18 to most people, walking around my yard with what looks just like a "scoped sniper rifle" and being in a similar situation. Mainly because I task him with killing all my squirrels and he routinely walks around with a very nice scoped pellet rifle. Now granted this is in middle class suburbs full of taxpaying voters, but it scares the hell out of me that cops are now acting in military style stop and shoot tactics. So again I will say we either have the rights or not...... and I for one want my rights back. And want them back for everyone. I know the risk and that is what we accept as citizens of this great country. It is not up to jurisdiction or other flimsy circumstances to change what we were given by God. (our rights were given to us by God, not by the government)


  I don't have the time or patience right now to explain the definition and concept of reasonable articulable suspicion.  You can google the term.  Also please google the Courts rulings on gang activity and "armed and presently" dangerous as it relates to a tier two encounter.


While you're at it, google the nearest Youth Detention Center to you and see if you can get a tour. I'm betting you're probably a little older than me but I've been around a while. "Children" today are not what we were. "Children" shoot up their schools. "Children" murder their teachers. "Children" slaughter their entire families with hammers.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:54:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JLW:

  I'll well acquainted with both without having to google them.  You have a wonderful evening.
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Originally Posted By JLW:
Originally Posted By georgiagun:

I will google those if you will google the bill of rights. And the constitition of the united states of america..... always a good read to refresh peoples ideas of what freedom really is like.

  I'll well acquainted with both without having to google them.  You have a wonderful evening.


You are fighting a lost cause here.....
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 7:12:50 PM EDT
Oh yes........you can't educate a closed mind........
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 3:50:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2013 3:52:15 AM EDT by mathecb]
Originally Posted By JLW:
The youth:

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2013/10/23/6c/f5/7647fc6b2ce34f4ba5008931dcf2df1c-2047dd4b47484d4cbb755a5611a92828-1.jpg


I wouldn't have guessed 13 from this picture.  I most certainly wouldn't have guessed that young seeing him toting what very much looked to be an AK47.
 
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Such a young woman.....
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 4:12:03 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By cmshoot:
Oh yes........you can't educate a closed mind........
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I sure hope that isn't true... I really do think it is important I try.

To be honest up to a few years ago I was huge supporter of law enforcement. I would back them up in any argument and always assume what so many others did about stupid games, stupid prizes....

But I started seeing more and more of what they do wasn't right. That was over the top and corrupt. And I took my time and researched and read and talked to police officers to get some real perspective. And you know what? It scared the living crap out of me..... They are the enforcers.... not the protectors anymore.

And even now I remember the thread you and I disagreed about when it came out that the APD will have its bonuses paid from traffic violations..... I still google a few times  week to find anything....any small reference that what you said would happen. That the good cops would fight it, that they wouldn't stand for it, and they would work behind the scenes..... Still nothing. Not even a mention or a statistic that has changed. Almost 6 months now I have been waiting.

I want to believe, but all the real evidence says not to.......
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 4:38:38 AM EDT
While you're at it, google the nearest Youth Detention Center to you and see if you can get a tour. I'm betting you're probably a little older than me but I've been around a while. "Children" today are not what we were. "Children" shoot up their schools. "Children" murder their teachers. "Children" slaughter their entire families with hammers.



You do know that isn't really true right? There are a lot of documented cases of children killers long into our past as humans. While in this day of instant reports and 24 hour news cycles we hear about it more, it really did happen back then also. And you have to take into account percentages also.... there are a lot more of us around now then 200 years ago, or 1000 years ago.

And that is a common tactic to justify taking away our rights..... using fear.

Link Posted: 10/25/2013 4:56:59 AM EDT
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You do know that isn't really true right? There are a lot of documented cases of children killers long into our past as humans. While in this day of instant reports and 24 hour news cycles we hear about it more, it really did happen back then also.
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Lizzie Borden had an axe...
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 5:55:30 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By georgiagun:



1. I am willing to bet there are a lot of seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen year olds who have fought and died for the constitution over the last 200+ years that might disagree with you taking away their 2A rights. Even GA allows teenagers to hunt alone and not under "Adult Supervision" after completing the hunter education course. So are you saying they should make that illegal too??

2. Blindly following law enforcement commands is what has gotten us to the point we are today. Cops feel they can do anything and expect everyone to comply or they can start slinging lead. That is the most gross abuse of power we see on almost a daily basis. Plus if you have been reading these stories over the last few years there are numerous cases where the person did comply and was shot and killed, tasered, attacked, assaulted and otherwise violated. I can Google up the links if you need to see them.

3. As you stated lastly you might have done the same thing and even said you might would have jumped the gun. I surely hope you are not allowed a badge and a gun in my great state of Georgia...... Well let me set the stage for you.... you come to my house. I answer the door and my son comes around the corner with what looks like a sniper rifle. (cause he's been plinking squirrels. You order him to drop it, he is 13 and freezes up and doesn't comply quick enough he is confused and scared. He turns to look at me or even worse starts to walk to me because I am his father and it is my responsibility to protect him. You draw and shoot him...... anything I write after this would not be COC compliant.

I am not defending this kids actions, but I AM condemning the officers use of force that has become epidemic and is quickly turning the general public away from those we used to hope would protect us.....


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Originally Posted By georgiagun:
Originally Posted By ceetee:
I've been on on the "good shoot" side of this since I first heard of it.  First, a teenager shouldn't be toting around any kind of firearn without being escorted by an adult.  Teenagers don't have any 2A rights that I'm aware of.  Second, if you're carrying any kind of implement that could be mistaken for a firearm, and a cop orders you to lay it down, you lay it the fuck down first, and explain what it is to the cop later.  Third, not having been there, it's possible that the cops jumped the gun, but if that's the case, it's highly likely that if I HAD been there I would have jumped the gun also.  Stupid games, stupid prizes.



1. I am willing to bet there are a lot of seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen year olds who have fought and died for the constitution over the last 200+ years that might disagree with you taking away their 2A rights. Even GA allows teenagers to hunt alone and not under "Adult Supervision" after completing the hunter education course. So are you saying they should make that illegal too??

2. Blindly following law enforcement commands is what has gotten us to the point we are today. Cops feel they can do anything and expect everyone to comply or they can start slinging lead. That is the most gross abuse of power we see on almost a daily basis. Plus if you have been reading these stories over the last few years there are numerous cases where the person did comply and was shot and killed, tasered, attacked, assaulted and otherwise violated. I can Google up the links if you need to see them.

3. As you stated lastly you might have done the same thing and even said you might would have jumped the gun. I surely hope you are not allowed a badge and a gun in my great state of Georgia...... Well let me set the stage for you.... you come to my house. I answer the door and my son comes around the corner with what looks like a sniper rifle. (cause he's been plinking squirrels. You order him to drop it, he is 13 and freezes up and doesn't comply quick enough he is confused and scared. He turns to look at me or even worse starts to walk to me because I am his father and it is my responsibility to protect him. You draw and shoot him...... anything I write after this would not be COC compliant.

I am not defending this kids actions, but I AM condemning the officers use of force that has become epidemic and is quickly turning the general public away from those we used to hope would protect us.....




God, equivocate much?  

Dress your kid in gang-style attire, put a realistic-looking AK pattern rifle in his hands, and stick him in a dark area noted for its youth gang activity.  A lot different situation than your kid, at your house, with his pellet rifle.  

How about we perform this test... Go buy a realistic-looking AK pattern toy rifle.  Dress yourself up in gang-style clothing, and go play around in an area known for its gang activity.  When the cops show up and order you to drop the rifle, point it at them.  Then come back online and tell us how the story ends.
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