Exactly what force do these signs have?

One interpretation of the law is that a "no guns" sign is your "warning", and if they notice you're carrying, they can quietly call the police and have you arrested.  But... there's no standard to determine what's "reasonable".  In theory, a dusty, wrinkled scrap of paper in the most unnoticeable corner could be called a "sign".

If I see a no guns sign, I'll turn and walk away.  A) their property, their rules; and B) I don't want to support businesses that don't want me there.  But it just isn't reasonable to scour every visible square inch of every place of business I ever come across, looking for the slightest sign that my sidearm is not welcome.

So... what's the deal?  If there's a sign, do they still have to tell you to leave and have you refuse before the law gets involved?  Or can they make that quiet call, have a cop show up, and even though the "sign" is a scribbled piece of paper that nobody could really know is there, the cop has no choice but to arrest you?

I like the way Texas does it... they have hard and fast requirements, and if a store owner doesn't want a sign that complies with the law, then s/he doesn't want to keep guns out badly enough.

Preferably, there should be no verbiage about signs at all... existing trespass statutes are more than sufficient.

I follow 2 trains of thought...

The Trespassing statute:

18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.


Then there's 18.2-308(O)

O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.


You can make your own decision, but I think that the answer is clear.

Depends upon who you ask.

Some folks claim its only a trespassing charge if you refuse to leave when asked.

The way I read the law and the way 2 criminal defense attorneys explained it to me is closer to your first example.

I've read 3 different/competing positions on this topic from lawyers.



First...

It's not illegal to break a store rule, whether it's "No Guns" or "No more than 10 items in the Express lane." If they don't like it, and choose to ask you to leave, and if you do not, you are guilty of the crime of tresspassing per 18.2-119 (quoted previously). Leave if they ask (and who wouldn't?) and you're fine.



Second...

18.2-308(O) (quoted previously) indicates that carrying concealed where there's a "No Guns" sign means mean that you are carrying concealed where you are not authorized to do so. You are then guilty of of the crime of carrying a concealed weapon.



Third...

Somehow (haven't heard a good explanation of this) a store rules sign, whether it's "No Guns" or "No more than 10 items in the Express lane," is equivalent to you being forbidden from being on that property if you're breaking that rule, regardless of the property owner's choice of infraction (if any) for breaking the rule. Per this interpretation, you are guilty of the crime of tresspassing whether the owner tells you to leave or not.





People tend to believe the lawyer they're paying, so pay your money and pick your poison.

Sign? What sign? You got a sign?  

I think one of the local gun shop has a sign No Guns or No Conceal carry, I think its No Guns and well i never went back even for the cheap ammo that they had. I'm glad another shop opened up and is way better with a better staff.

I have not any other gun signs in the area except the hospital.

Willing to share the store name or at least town/county?  I know Greentop has something like "No guns except for concealed carry"

I've only seen one "No Guns" sign at a hospital and it was so small that I didn't even notice it until I was on the way out.

Its a "condition of entry". You are welcome on our property if you follow the rules. i.e. no shirt, no shoes, no service.

Only private business I've seen that has a noticeable "no guns" sign is Jared's (the cheesy jewelery store).

I do know of a mall or two that have a "conduct code" or some such, that's not posted very conspicuously, that prohibits weapons (including guns and knives). Funny part is that these couple of malls have stores that sell guns and knives. Explain THAT one to me.

Harrisonburg....

all i'll say is that it's not my shop  

Nope not your shop.

The place I'm talking about is in Harrisonburg and the sign is right on the door or it used to be and I have no clue if they are still open. I do all my fun shopping at a new shop in Harrisonburg, the guys know their stuff there and great to be around.

"sorry, someone held the door open for me when I entered and I never saw any sign."



 

I think I read something like that before, but it kinda seems like a stretch of logic to me to make the trespass law apply.



Then again, I don't think like a lawyer.

Traveling through Jacksonville FL there's a big gun shop that will actually ask you if you are armed when you come in. If you say yes they will ask you to put it in your car or leave.

I know of one store locally that has a "No Concealed Handguns" sign on the door. Does that me I can carry open in that store?

And they probably have a donation jar for you to contribute to help expand your rights.

I can see where you guys are coming from but private property rights are for all.
You can't just follow the laws that suit you.

I have only ever had one store try to enforce the 10 Item rule.  That was a K Mart about 15 years ago.  It was right before Christmas and had close to $400 worth of electronics as well as a few other items.  I may have taken  them more time to put the stuff away than it would have taken them to ring it up.  This was the K-Mart in Hagerstown.  It only takes one over zealous employee trying to show their power.  The store manager came running over and apologize and offered to ring me out personally.  I politely thanked him and walked out while he was trying to get a register open.  I saw him in the face of the cashier who got testy with me as I walked out.  I went to another store and had no problems at all..

I don't carry concealed or open yet.  I do however walk away and not patronize any establishment with a no gun sign.  Once I was questioned about it by a store owner and l explained to him that while I did not carry, I did not feel safe in his establishment if there were no guns present.  I know it hurts them but as it is their choice to forbid guns, its my choice not to spend my money there.

ANGMSG

They are not laws but private rules governing private property.

I think I've seen one no guns sign.

But I have to wonder... how many have I not seen?

In a reasonable world, if the sign isn't at eye level, in contrasting outlines, "I didn't see it" should be an affirmative defense, and we're back to the store owner asking you to leave.  But this isn't a reasonable world.  "What are you worried about, that isn't going to happen, you're paranoid!"  I wonder how many people would have said that if you were worried about being charged with brandishing for simply having a sidearm and then questioning the "authority" of a Rent-A-Cop telling you you can't be there?

I never said I ignore signs...in fact, I avoid places that I know are anti. But I don't go out of my way to look for signs.



I do what I need to do to protect my life. The last time I bothered looking for a sign (that happened to be at a mall in an affluent area) I came close to being a victim. Never again.
 

Meh....Everyone  has to make a personal choice in that regard. I'll simply shop elsewhere if I see the sign. No big deal to me as it is their loss.  

I believe the shop is down on the South end of town that youre talking about.  Runion's perhaps?  
ETA: the one that doesn't allow guns that is....

A "no guns" sign is not a sign telling you that if you have a gun on this property you are trespassing.  It's just a store rule, like no shirt no shoes no service.  If you don't follow the store rules they can ask you to leave, or not, it's up to them.  Now if they ask you to leave and you refuse, then its criminal trespass.  But, he only way you'll catch a charge is if they go take out a warrant on you themselves because most cops aren't gonna write a trespass unless you're a problem person, it's a problem area (7-11 with lots of trespassers), or it's a property that has specific code requirements like a school or church.  I'm sure the arfcom lawyers will probably say the same thing.

18.2-308(O) only gives the property owner the authoirty to prrohibit guns, which means the sign is meaningless if it was put up by a leasee or manager.  Second even if that subsection makes a CHP null and void on posted property it means nothing when it comes to Open Carry.

Yup. The only trespassing I enforce is if it occurs directly in my presence, or at our local projects. And we have a running list for those and a property manager who will come to court.

However leasees and managers can prohibit trespass anyone they want from their property for anything.

Which is correct. But before it becomes tresspassing they need to tell a person to leave and that person needs to refuse.



Unlike in some so called free states if you ignore a special sign you're automatically guilty of a misdemeanor and you lose your permit. .

Failed bank, Wachovia, has "no revolvers" stickers on their doors.  I've never carried a revolver into a Wachovia.

Their assets were bought up by Wells Fargo.  Branches in NOVA are undergoing conversion to Wells Fargo this summer/Fall.  Dunno what signs they may/may not have.

does that mean that as long as i don't carry a Beretta 92fs / M9 into a BB&T i'm good to go? i'm a Glock guy so this is an easy distinction  




on a serious note: there is a bank that i'm forced to do business with for undisclosed reasons that has a *no-gun* policy, complete with signs. every single employee all the way up to the branch manager has said that they don't care if i CC in their building. it's not their rule and they don't see the need to enforce it as long as you're not causing trouble.

i've set foot inside the building exactly once in the last year or so and when i went in i went without my pistol. don't want to chance getting spotted by some kind of corporate boss or a *do good* customer and get put in a tight spot.  i did however take my pitbull. the sign on the door says *no Firearms* it doesn't say shit about no dogs.