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Posted: 11/18/2008 9:00:36 PM EDT
Seriously? Seriously?

http://www.lvrj.com/news/breaking_news/34624979.html
Nov. 17, 2008

Copyright © Las Vegas Review-Journal



Woman describes Sunday encounter with man on rampage



By MAGGIE LILLIS and ANTONIO PLANAS

LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL




Lisa Rossnagel’s instincts served her right Sunday afternoon, and she feels lucky they did.





She was walking with her two daughters about three blocks from their home, near Hualapai Way and Cheyenne Avenue, when they became victims of a one-man crime spree.







A 42-year-old Las Vegas man who police did not identify went on a two-hour rampage in the western Las Vegas Valley that included groping women, attempting to kidnap adults and children, and shooting at people he found along his way.





Rossnagel first noticed him around 3 p.m. when he parked his black Volkswagen Beetle nearby and started walking around. She said today that everything about his actions was random and aimless.





“He moved like he had no purpose,” said Rossnagel, who opted to put distance between them. “I just thought something was odd about him right away.”





She said he was average looking, bald and wore khaki shorts, a light-colored Hawaiian shirt and tennis shoes.





Moments later, the man approached her, mumbled something and put both hands on her older daughter.





Rossnagel said she began screaming and pushing at the man with her stroller, doing everything she could to cause a scene.





“I just went ballistic,” she said. “I told my daughter to run.”





“I was so focused on getting them out of harm’s way and safe,” she said of her 7-year-old and 2-year-old daughters. “I just couldn’t believe it was happening. It was unreal.”





The man let go of the girl and kept looking back to his car during the tussle. Rossnagel said he was smiling, violent and rather unsure of himself.





She said she flagged down a motorist, who called police.





Then she heard a popping sound to her left and saw the man sitting in his car about 50 feet away holding a 9 millimeter handgun.





Rossnagel said she shielded her daughters as the man fired two more shots before driving away on Cheyenne.





No one was injured during the 10-minute exchange.





“Luckily, he was a bad shot,” Rossnagel said.





Jacinto Rivera, a spokesman with the Metropolitan Police Department, said Rossnagel acted correctly when she decided to scream when the man grabbed her daughter.





“If somebody tries to take your kid, immediately draw attention to yourself,” Rivera said.





Rivera said Rossnagel and everybody who was confronted by the suspect Sunday was lucky because no one was seriously injured.





He said if confronted by someone with a gun, don’t provoke the suspect, just comply with his or her demands because that is the assailant’s “moment of power.”





“You just don’t want to make them mad,” Rivera said. “When someone has a gun they are very powerful.”





Two motorists helped Rossnagel and her daughters as they waited for police. She listened to the rest of the man’s spree on the officer’s police scanners before hearing he had shot and killed himself.





The incident was the third stop the man made.





Rivera said this afternoon that the entire incident, which started about 2:33 p.m., lasted more than two hours. Police had initially said it lasted 105 minutes.





Witnesses and victims reported nearly a dozen similar scenes where the man tried to kidnap, shoot or run over people or got out of his vehicle to grope women on the street.





A police helicopter and 20 to 50 officers were involved in the pursuit, from the northwest to the southwest via the Las Vegas Beltway.





Rivera said police had difficulty catching up to the man because he was a moving target. He said people need to be as specific as possible when calling 911 to give out descriptions of suspects or their cars.





“Whenever you have an incident, and the suspect is mobile, it’s going to be hard to track,” Rivera said. “The more detail we have will help us zero in on the right vehicle or right person.”





The spree ended when the suspect crashed his car near the intersection of Grand Canyon Drive and Grand Canyon Walk, north of Tropicana Avenue. He shot himself in the face when officers approached.





Rivera didn’t want to speculate on the suspect’s state of mind, but he ruled out suicide by cop because people who want to be killed by officers usually aren’t able to do it themselves.





Contact reporter Maggie Lillis at mlillis@reviewjournal.com or 702-383-0279. Contact reporter Antonio Planas at aplanas@reviewjournal.com or 702-383-4638.









I'm sorry, but some strange man puts his hands on my 7 year old daughter and wants to drag her back to his car?  The LAST thing he's going to have to worry about is being rammed by a stroller.






Link Posted: 11/18/2008 9:27:10 PM EDT
When I first moved here I lived near the corner of Cheyenne and North Hualapai.  It used to be a decent area.  I know of someone that was involved in a shootout in the Timbers just down the street on Cheyenne.  I'm not sure what has happened to the area but stories like this are becoming more and more common citywide.  The LAST thing I will do is comply and hope for the best especially if my family is at risk.  When was the last time you heard of a mother bear, mountain lion, or any animal for that matter complying with a potential threat to its young?  Should you roll over you just made a predators job easier. Be a hard target and avoid the situation all together.  Should evil find you, bring the fight and accept nothing but victory.
Link Posted: 11/18/2008 9:33:42 PM EDT
Can't field enough LEO's and still expect us to tuck tail?  Get the fack out of here.

ernie- post 666
Link Posted: 11/18/2008 9:55:10 PM EDT
Evil dude... just evil...
Link Posted: 11/18/2008 9:56:41 PM EDT
Comply......... BULLSHIT!!!  Two to the chest one to the head.
Link Posted: 11/18/2008 10:08:18 PM EDT
One of those incidents Sunday was down the street from our house. This area isn't close to what it used to be when we moved in 12 years ago. All kinds of strange shit happening the past few years. But the last thing I'm going to do is curl up and wait to die.
Link Posted: 11/18/2008 10:10:08 PM EDT
ill comply, just long enough to clear leather.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 1:00:44 AM EDT
metro has to say that to keep the sheep safe.

We all know that statement isn't for sheep dogs
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 3:44:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 3:44:59 AM EDT by ishoot2live]
Originally Posted By Bed_Head:

I'm sorry, but some strange man puts his hands on my 7 year old daughter and wants to drag her back to his car?  The LAST thing he's going to have to worry about is being rammed by a stroller.




I couldn't agree more, B_H....


Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:36:00 AM EDT
I don't think so...  I have had someone catch me off guard before I started shooting and he was close enough to have to put my car door between us..Won't happen again..ESPECIALLY with my 2 y/o  with me..
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:43:25 AM EDT
Makes you wonder if she went out, bought a gun and said to metro yeah right next time I smokin their ass! My wife doesn't like guns, but I practically beat her a## if she walks out the door with out her pepper spray.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:31:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 8:32:49 AM EDT by schizrade]
Yeah tell that to this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue-rVWFadEQ

Rollin 60's Crips in Vegas show no mercy.

I doubt this guy would just take what he wanted and leave you alone.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 11:54:52 AM EDT
If complying when you are unarmed, will actually work, then why not?

Now, it all depends, but most of the robberies or attacks result in no injury. Is that always the case and is being a sheep the best response? The answer is no.

If you are armed and mentally prepared for the battle, then bring it.

You have to remember most of the general public is walking around in condition brown and just stupid and clueless. If you doubt that, then just look at our next President for proof. With idiots like that in mind, who probably would pee their pants at the thought of a person with a gun, they are probably so scared they won't even be able to comply with the robbers demands.

Robbers look for the alone and/or weak. They won't pick a strong target. They profile the way the rest of us do. They want an easy mark who is going to have cash and not resist. Unfortunately, more people are not prepared for the battle, whether they are armed or not.

Is getting shot over your wallet or purse really worth it? I would say no, but I would be willing to take the risk

Bad guys don't always load their guns, purchase junk weapons that don't work, or carry a Kel-tec (same as junk ;)). I have been a victim of all 3........
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 12:31:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RDP:
You have to remember most of the general public is walking around in condition brown and just stupid and clueless.


Agreed here.  Just curious, what is the brown level in your code?  The code I learned was white/yellow/orange/red/black.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 12:59:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By schizrade:
Yeah tell that to this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue-rVWFadEQ

Rollin 60's Crips in Vegas show no mercy.

I doubt this guy would just take what he wanted and leave you alone.


I am not a lawyer, nor an expert but I'll toss in my .02 here:
If you are a civilian and you can avoid using deadly force you HAVE TO. Even Massad Ayoub mentions this in several of his books, avoiding confrontation and escape are your priorities.
Opening fire on an unarmed man who is acting weird is going to be hard to explain to a jury.
If you can scare him away and flee the area, great. If he returns to his car and comes back after you/your family with a weapon, all bets are off and fire away.

HOWEVER, if you go back to YOUR car, get YOUR gun and RETURN to find him (even if he is armed) you have a good chance of going down for murder 1.
Why? The legal defense for a self defense shooting includes the complicated aspect of Preclusion, which means you did everything you could to avoid the situation.
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

In any case, if you shoot someone you will be arrested. Period. If there is any POSSIBILITY the shooting was not justified you will be charged and then its up to you to PROVE it was justified. Good luck with that ($$$). Success varies by state (Kalifornia probably would lock you up for violating noise ordinances even if you were justified)

If you are LEO then these rules to not apply. They have a different set with different criteria for turning bad guys into leaky pieces of meat.

FYI, that video was staged for bumfights.com. The car was a rental car, the guy was paid to attack it and the person in the car was in on it.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 1:15:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 1:15:52 PM EDT by chiz45]
haveblue34, this topic pops up now and then and it's the same, usual suspects on the NVHTF (trainers, cops, and lawyers) that chime in and give their particular input.  There's a critical difference between what a person MUST do and what a person CAN do.  Retreat is not a concept that Nevadans recognize Unfortunately, that might be changing, as Nevada went BLUE this time around...

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 1:38:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WS6_Keith:
Originally Posted By RDP:
You have to remember most of the general public is walking around in condition brown and just stupid and clueless.


Agreed here.  Just curious, what is the brown level in your code?  The code I learned was white/yellow/orange/red/black.


Brown is-

Having your head up your butt. That is the condition most people walk around in

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 1:45:48 PM EDT
Massage Aboob is a .
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 4:24:51 PM EDT


RDP, I completely understand your point.... *if* I was alone.  However, it's a whole different game when some creep is grabbing my kid.  Momma Bear takes no prisoners and will NOT 'just comply.'






And FWIW, I don't care what Massad Ayoob says about retreating.  I don't think there's a jury in the state who would convict a woman for using deadly force against some freak of a man who was kiddnapping her daughter.


Link Posted: 11/19/2008 4:28:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chiz45:
haveblue34, this topic pops up now and then and it's the same, usual suspects on the NVHTF (trainers, cops, and lawyers) that chime in and give their particular input.  There's a critical difference between what a person MUST do and what a person CAN do.  Retreat is not a concept that Nevadans recognize Unfortunately, that might be changing, as Nevada went BLUE this time around...



Agreed. I moved here from Kali, so I was always more careful of treading on the 'proper' side of the law than places like nevada and texas.
You would probably get away with it here more than other places, and there is always the 'he was going for his gun' defense, but putting the hammer down on someone just because you CAN is not a great idea and poor advice.
I just wanted to balance out the 'shoot first, ask questions later' attitude of the earlier posts with a bit of reality.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 4:59:04 PM EDT



Originally Posted By haveblue34:



Originally Posted By chiz45:

haveblue34, this topic pops up now and then and it's the same, usual suspects on the NVHTF (trainers, cops, and lawyers) that chime in and give their particular input. There's a critical difference between what a person MUST do and what a person CAN do. Retreat is not a concept that Nevadans recognize
Unfortunately, that might be changing, as Nevada went BLUE this time around...








Agreed. I moved here from Kali, so I was always more careful of treading on the 'proper' side of the law than places like nevada and texas.

You would probably get away with it here more than other places, and there is always the 'he was going for his gun' defense, but putting the hammer down on someone just because you CAN is not a great idea and poor advice.

I just wanted to balance out the 'shoot first, ask questions later' attitude of the earlier posts with a bit of reality.
Is that seriously how you interpret this thread?
 It has nothing to do with 'getting away with more.'  It's more like we have more freedoms (the right to self-defense) and common sense that haven't yet been stripped from us.  We still, thank goodness, have a pretty conservative PD and DA.



Shooting first, asking questions later would be if I shot some strange man just for approaching me.



Once that strange man puts his hands on my 7 year old daughter (one of which I happen to have), and attempts to drag her back to his car, there is no question about whether I'm justified using deadly force.  Nevermind his shooting randomly at people in my freaking neighborhood.  (yes, this was very, VERY close to my neighborhood- only a couple streets away.)



Welcome to Nevada, BTW.




Link Posted: 11/19/2008 5:17:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bed_Head:
Originally Posted By haveblue34:
Originally Posted By chiz45:
haveblue34, this topic pops up now and then and it's the same, usual suspects on the NVHTF (trainers, cops, and lawyers) that chime in and give their particular input. There's a critical difference between what a person MUST do and what a person CAN do. Retreat is not a concept that Nevadans recognize Unfortunately, that might be changing, as Nevada went BLUE this time around...



Agreed. I moved here from Kali, so I was always more careful of treading on the 'proper' side of the law than places like nevada and texas.
You would probably get away with it here more than other places, and there is always the 'he was going for his gun' defense, but putting the hammer down on someone just because you CAN is not a great idea and poor advice.
I just wanted to balance out the 'shoot first, ask questions later' attitude of the earlier posts with a bit of reality.
Is that seriously how you interpret this thread?  It has nothing to do with 'getting away with more.'  It's more like we have more freedoms (the right to self-defense) and common sense that haven't yet been stripped from us.  We still, thank goodness, have a pretty conservative PD and DA.

Shooting first, asking questions later would be if I shot some strange man just for approaching me.

Once that strange man puts his hands on my 7 year old daughter (one of which I happen to have), and attempts to drag her back to his car, there is no question about whether I'm justified using deadly force.  Nevermind his shooting randomly at people in my freaking neighborhood.  (yes, this was very, VERY close to my neighborhood- only a couple streets away.)

Welcome to Nevada, BTW.



Hmm, maybe I did get the wrong idea but:
"The LAST thing he's going to have to worry about is being rammed by a stroller." and "Two to the chest one to the head." and "ill comply, just long enough to clear leather."
Seems like jumping the gun a bit

If somone pushes me, I'll push back. If they hit me, I'll hit back. If they pull a gun, I'll pull mine and make sure its the last thing they do.
Those earlier posts seemed like everyone is ready to jump straight to deadly force.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 5:22:57 PM EDT
Nobody wants to shoot first unless the situation justifies it.   And there are a lot of variables to consider.  

But read the constitution of Nevada.  It's a lot different than California.  This is Nevada, many escapees want to bring the socialism aspects of california with them.  To those people I suggest they go back to california and suck it up.  

If someone attempts to grab someone, even someone unrelated may intervene.  If the district attorney attempts to prosecute, he may have a really hard time.  

The cops say every time to just comply, and we know from research if you make a fuss your 8 times less likely to be injured.  If you are going to unload on a perp then you unload on them with everything, overwhelming force, they get no chance.  

Of you are not willing to unload on them with everything then just comply, the cops will send out someone to fill out paper work, they may or most likely won't catch the guy, and they may even tell you if your property gets recovered.  According to California case law you cannot shoot a person looting your house, they take a dim view of self defense for any reason.

Yes, the law has changed to a do nothing preference and the cops say they want help.  But the lawyers say don't get involved.  That is a double bind and is not tolerable.  People need to make up their mind as a society and not listen to the voices of our goodytwoshoesgottheirnoseinyourbusiness people.

If the members of a community are not free to care for themselves and to protect themselves, and each other. Then All of the law in the world will not stop a damn thing.
If it takes the threat of, or the use of deadly force to solve a problem, then that's fine.  We do not have the tools that law enforcement has.  But we can act.

This is not really a slam on anyone, just spouting off.

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 5:25:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bed_Head:
RDP, I completely understand your point.... *if* I was alone.  However, it's a whole different game when some creep is grabbing my kid.  Momma Bear takes no prisoners and will NOT 'just comply.'


And FWIW, I don't care what Massad Ayoob says about retreating.  I don't think there's a jury in the state who would convict a woman for using deadly force against some freak of a man who was kiddnapping her daughter.





Ayoob is good on some things.... and paranoid on others.

As for someone touching my kid, they would be lucky to live through the experience. Of course, this only lawful force will be used

If you were alone, I am sure you wouldn't puss out either...... it is for the sheeple!


Link Posted: 11/19/2008 5:45:01 PM EDT



Originally Posted By haveblue34:



Hmm, maybe I did get the wrong idea but:

"The LAST thing he's going to have to worry about is being rammed by a stroller." and "Two to the chest one to the head." and "ill comply, just long enough to clear leather."

Seems like jumping the gun a bit




If somone pushes me, I'll push back. If they hit me, I'll hit back. If they pull a gun, I'll pull mine and make sure its the last thing they do.

Those earlier posts seemed like everyone is ready to jump straight to deadly force.
I gotcha.  However, I mean what I said when I made the stroller comment.  Just like I mean it when I say this:  The Illinois State Police (or whichever agency said it) can put it where the sun don't shine when they advise women to 'vomit on a rapist' or to 'urinate themselves' in the hopes it will discourage them from following through.  What kind of moronic advice is that?!?
 How about advising women to get self-defense training, and carry concealed, and get good firearms training?  The last thing a rapist has to worry about from me is being puked on.
 I'll save the puking for afterwards- once the adrenaline and shock starts wearing off.




Link Posted: 11/19/2008 5:46:04 PM EDT



Originally Posted By RDP:



If you were alone, I am sure you wouldn't puss out either...... it is for the sheeple!







Why whatever do you mean.
 Fiesty is the fiesty one.  I've seen it.




Link Posted: 11/19/2008 5:54:55 PM EDT
The dude behind the counter at the quickie mart over on Lamb got shot in the head/later died complying.  Just never know so might as well put up an effort.

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:02:01 PM EDT
Everyone needs to read this again, and again...

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs, By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:02:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bed_Head:
Seriously? Seriously?



http://www.lvrj.com/news/breaking_news/34624979.html


Nov. 17, 2008
Copyright © Las Vegas Review-Journal

Woman describes Sunday encounter with man on rampage

By MAGGIE LILLIS and ANTONIO PLANAS
LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
Lisa Rossnagel’s instincts served her right Sunday afternoon, and she feels lucky they did.

She was walking with her two daughters about three blocks from their home, near Hualapai Way and Cheyenne Avenue, when they became victims of a one-man crime spree.

A 42-year-old Las Vegas man who police did not identify went on a two-hour rampage in the western Las Vegas Valley that included groping women, attempting to kidnap adults and children, and shooting at people he found along his way.

Rossnagel first noticed him around 3 p.m. when he parked his black Volkswagen Beetle nearby and started walking around. She said today that everything about his actions was random and aimless.

“He moved like he had no purpose,” said Rossnagel, who opted to put distance between them. “I just thought something was odd about him right away.”

She said he was average looking, bald and wore khaki shorts, a light-colored Hawaiian shirt and tennis shoes.

Moments later, the man approached her, mumbled something and put both hands on her older daughter.

Rossnagel said she began screaming and pushing at the man with her stroller, doing everything she could to cause a scene.

“I just went ballistic,” she said. “I told my daughter to run.”

“I was so focused on getting them out of harm’s way and safe,” she said of her 7-year-old and 2-year-old daughters. “I just couldn’t believe it was happening. It was unreal.”

The man let go of the girl and kept looking back to his car during the tussle. Rossnagel said he was smiling, violent and rather unsure of himself.

She said she flagged down a motorist, who called police.

Then she heard a popping sound to her left and saw the man sitting in his car about 50 feet away holding a 9 millimeter handgun.

Rossnagel said she shielded her daughters as the man fired two more shots before driving away on Cheyenne.

No one was injured during the 10-minute exchange.

“Luckily, he was a bad shot,” Rossnagel said.

Jacinto Rivera, a spokesman with the Metropolitan Police Department, said Rossnagel acted correctly when she decided to scream when the man grabbed her daughter.

“If somebody tries to take your kid, immediately draw attention to yourself,” Rivera said.

Rivera said Rossnagel and everybody who was confronted by the suspect Sunday was lucky because no one was seriously injured.

He said if confronted by someone with a gun, don’t provoke the suspect, just comply with his or her demands because that is the assailant’s “moment of power.”

“You just don’t want to make them mad,” Rivera said. “When someone has a gun they are very powerful.”

Two motorists helped Rossnagel and her daughters as they waited for police. She listened to the rest of the man’s spree on the officer’s police scanners before hearing he had shot and killed himself.

The incident was the third stop the man made.

Rivera said this afternoon that the entire incident, which started about 2:33 p.m., lasted more than two hours. Police had initially said it lasted 105 minutes.

Witnesses and victims reported nearly a dozen similar scenes where the man tried to kidnap, shoot or run over people or got out of his vehicle to grope women on the street.

A police helicopter and 20 to 50 officers were involved in the pursuit, from the northwest to the southwest via the Las Vegas Beltway.

Rivera said police had difficulty catching up to the man because he was a moving target. He said people need to be as specific as possible when calling 911 to give out descriptions of suspects or their cars.

“Whenever you have an incident, and the suspect is mobile, it’s going to be hard to track,” Rivera said. “The more detail we have will help us zero in on the right vehicle or right person.”

The spree ended when the suspect crashed his car near the intersection of Grand Canyon Drive and Grand Canyon Walk, north of Tropicana Avenue. He shot himself in the face when officers approached.

Rivera didn’t want to speculate on the suspect’s state of mind, but he ruled out suicide by cop because people who want to be killed by officers usually aren’t able to do it themselves.

Contact reporter Maggie Lillis at mlillis@reviewjournal.com or 702-383-0279. Contact reporter Antonio Planas at aplanas@reviewjournal.com or 702-383-4638.




I'm sorry, but some strange man puts his hands on my 7 year old daughter and wants to drag her back to his car?  The LAST thing he's going to have to worry about is being rammed by a stroller.





So she has demonstrated a willingness to retreat, when that is ineffective and this jerk puts his hands on her daughter to A) grope her  or B) abduct her.... just what the hell is she suppposed to do next, give the guy her permission to have his way with her kid.

I am sick of society's developing attitude of do nothing and wait for the police to handle it.

That SOB would have gotten a verbal warning at the same time that I am drawing my concealed pistol.  I have no desire to shot someone and deal with the aftermath but I will defend my family.

RANT not directed at anyone in particular, I just feel strongly about the right to defend myself and the way society is headed troubles me.

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:21:45 PM EDT
After reading some of the nevada constitution (thanks longun45) I feel better about carrying in this state. I retract my earlier statement about HAVING to seek an escape route before perforating a bad guy (although I still think its a good idea).

As far as 'complying' goes: I didn't really expect the lvmpd to advise unarmed people to fight with a gun toting attacker.
Although the article does say the lady was right to yell and scream to draw attention to herself and to seek help.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 9:03:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 9:06:29 PM EDT by chiz45]
Despite that fact that 1 out of 6 women will be raped at some point in their lives (source), only a small percentage are willing to take their personal security into their own hands.  You KNOW why they recommend the puking or peeing...simply because these code BROWN folks won't do what they need to do.  They think a cell phone, a loud voice, and a single knee to the groin is all they need

Similarly, how many gun owners are doing what they need to do, and properly TRAIN to use their carry guns? I'd bet a similarly small percentage, with most owners thinking as if their gun is a magical guided missle system!

The generic proverb time: better to have and not need, rather than need and not have....that's more than just having a gun, but more importantly having the requisite skills, training, and mindset to go with it.

Got the guns...now working on the skills to employ 'em.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 8:45:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By haveblue34:
Originally Posted By schizrade:
Yeah tell that to this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue-rVWFadEQ

Rollin 60's Crips in Vegas show no mercy.

I doubt this guy would just take what he wanted and leave you alone.


I am not a lawyer, nor an expert but I'll toss in my .02 here:
If you are a civilian and you can avoid using deadly force you HAVE TO. Even Massad Ayoub mentions this in several of his books, avoiding confrontation and escape are your priorities.
Opening fire on an unarmed man who is acting weird is going to be hard to explain to a jury.
If you can scare him away and flee the area, great. If he returns to his car and comes back after you/your family with a weapon, all bets are off and fire away.

HOWEVER, if you go back to YOUR car, get YOUR gun and RETURN to find him (even if he is armed) you have a good chance of going down for murder 1.
Why? The legal defense for a self defense shooting includes the complicated aspect of Preclusion, which means you did everything you could to avoid the situation.
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

In any case, if you shoot someone you will be arrested. Period. If there is any POSSIBILITY the shooting was not justified you will be charged and then its up to you to PROVE it was justified. Good luck with that ($$$). Success varies by state (Kalifornia probably would lock you up for violating noise ordinances even if you were justified)

If you are LEO then these rules to not apply. They have a different set with different criteria for turning bad guys into leaky pieces of meat.

FYI, that video was staged for bumfights.com. The car was a rental car, the guy was paid to attack it and the person in the car was in on it.




Uhhh, ok that was not my point, but whatever.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:29:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By broke_again:
Comply......... BULLSHIT!!!  Two to the chest one to the head.


+1+1+1+1+1+1
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