Since I'm going to be meeting a bunch of new friends I thought I'd throw out an idea I've been stewing on.
 At the Aug. shoot there was a conversation about 'incorporating',tho the original concept was intrigueing I was skeptical.It would be nice to have 'big boy' toys.
 Anyway the thought ran thru my head that a good way to test out the concept might be to use that idea to buy 'shares' on range equipment(porta pots,targets,FA gear,comm,benches,generator,etc.).



I'm excited that so many folks are interested in trainng,but it's too many people to be sh!tt!n in the woods.
My porta-pot is gone...it was old and funky anyway.I'm going to buy a 'new' one,paying for the pumping is alot cheaper than renting.

I've got to ask for a donation for the porta pots.

I'll throw out a 'trial balloon'.
It's probably too much of a fast track for Oct.16,that class would be a good time to discuss the idea more...Finding a way to co-op range gear,and have a licensed /insured trailer to haul stuff around on.

I don't really need to own a porta pot myself,so think of the possibilities.This could be a way to facilitate more FUN.I KNOW I am going to host a rimfire biathlon this winter,if we ever get any snow...It would be great if we could work together and host a competition as WI ARFCOM that can gain some respect someday.The Oct. class and FNS rental fees could/might? pay for a unit.

All I've done so far is google alittle,I was going to make some calls locally manana.
Either way anyone know anyone?If I can get set up and buy smart(instead of cheap) it'll be easier to sell it to the "entity" later.



Aside from "co-oping"material goods this would be a good way to loophole in legal protection???for shoots and meets.


....just a trial ballon.

BulletcatchR

We should absolutly talk about this, I've had similar ideas over the past year. I gots many many many an Idea, i'm an idea kinda guy, but I'm not good at taking rough ideas and polishing them up.

Yes we definatly have to talk about this.

Actaully I've looked more into this.  The way to go would be a LLC.  I've found a lawyer who is gun friendly here in town, who'll do it for under $800, including the state filing fees.  I was going to do one online, but there was no "cover all the bases" service for considerably less.  The sate site just had forms, and you know how the state works...take your money, your paperwork's not complete, file again, pay again.  If we go LLC, the catch is to get all members named at formation, otherwise you have to file addendum forms (pay more money)  when you add new members.  Also, if I go with the lawyer, he can be named as contact person, instead of having the stae directly contact one of us.

Oh, and since the profits/loss are divied up amongs personal income taxes, the companies' "loss" for the purchase of equiptment, is tax deductable, seeing as how your gross income is adjusted lower.  Shoots, fuel to get to shoots, and targets, can also be taken as losses in the name of the LLC.

BC - I'd have no problem kicking in for portapots, range equipment, etc.  But I'm not really looking to own a share of a FA toy.  Would be fun, but just too many other things to spend $$ on for me.  

Edit to add: I wonder if a LLC could accept payments from non-shareholders for use (rental) of LLC equipment?  Just a thought to possibly help with what MisterPX mentioned about needing to name all your shareholders up front or pay for extra paperwork.

I think the FA loophole turned out tobe  a dud.I haven't followed up on it but I was going to input that same sentiment.Seperate out the registered items to keep it simple.

TNX for the input.

Bulletcatchr

Being an LLC, there are technically no "shares".  All members have equal access to company property, so in the case of NFA stuff, you'd have to make sure you trust your fellow members not to borrow your stuff and sell it off, or just keep the item at your personal location.  I don't beleive I'd have any trouble with those of you I've met, but things might get worrisome if your neighbor's second cousin's barber gets cast into the LLC just to bring individual cost down.  Keep in mind, that money in the company account is free game to members before it's withdrawn.  ie. I deposit $14000 for an MP5.  While the check is off in the mail, Larry the cable guy who is part of the LLC decides he want's a new hot tub.  He withdraws $4000, and buys a hottub.  I'm personally out $4000, and the company owns a hottub.

Draw, the company could rent out the equiptment.  In effect, this would be income (wow, we could nail our first dollar to Tattoo's Jeep ).  HOWEVER, to what extent of taking it home with you as a rental, I have not yet found. (Although, getting caught with an item is highly unlikely)  Otherwise, I believe the state filing fee for changing members is only about $35.

I'm thinking along the lines of seperating out the NFA items from 'range' items.There's ALOT less money involved and no "paperwork" and WAY less complicated.

It's real easy to draw up rules regarding ownership and use of equipment,and how a person's shares be valued,traded, or sold back if I move to Belize` for example and want to sell out my 'shares'.It would be easy to keep books and compute any raise in value depending on how much the corp brought in and took out(say in 'rental' fees).
If it's a WI arfcom event it should be automatic that the equipment made  can be made available.Let's say a person wants to use the equipment for a family reunion or shotgun wedding,,rules can be setup,maybe a 'fee' that would go to new equipment or maintenence.

BulletcatchR

Quoted: I'm thinking along the lines of seperating out the NFA items from 'range' items.There's ALOT less money involved and no "paperwork" and WAY less complicated. It's real easy to draw up rules regarding ownership and use of equipment,and how a person's shares be valued,traded, or sold back if I move to Belize` for example and want to sell out my 'shares'.It would be easy to keep books and compute any raise in value depending on how much the corp brought in and took out(say in 'rental' fees). If it's a WI arfcom event it should be automatic that the equipment made  can be made available.Let's say a person wants to use the equipment for a family reunion or shotgun wedding,,rules can be setup,maybe a 'fee' that would go to new equipment or maintenence. BulletcatchR

Well for me I like the idea all around. I'm really interested because for me, the only way I'm getting a supressor in Racine county is the corp route. Our sheriff won't sign for them because he doesn't want his officers being shot at with supressed weapons, yah he takes us to be idiodic enough to do that and needs to get un-elected.

I think tattoo had it right, basicly if it was even explained to me right and I understood it right, when you fill out the form 1 for a corp purchace you list who in the corp is allowed to posses the item, so you could decide to purchace a supressor and fill out the form1 and put down that only you are allowed to posses it. Or you could put down two people or three people. Now thats if i understood all that stuff right when the guy was explaining it to me.

A little OT: Are you guys saying that an LLC can buy Class III items?  That changes my whole outlook on life!  I thought it had to be an "Inc." (corporation, or whatever), not just a "Limited Liability Company" to do that.  My family's business is an LLC, which means I could get a MG without the LEO signoff!  Sweet.

BTW, I might be willing to go in on a WI Arfcom organization.

Quoted: A little OT: Are you guys saying that an LLC can buy Class III items?  That changes my whole outlook on life!  I thought it had to be an "Inc." (corporation, or whatever), not just a "Limited Liability Company" to do that.  My family's business is an LLC, which means I could get a MG without the LEO signoff!  Sweet. BTW, I might be willing to go in on a WI Arfcom organization.

Never mind I mis read the post.....,

Coolcat, as long as you listed as a member of your family's LLC, you can have one.

The NFA item would be had in the company's name, any member of said company, listed in the company records could possess it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A little OT: Are you guys saying that an LLC can buy Class III items?  That changes my whole outlook on life!  I thought it had to be an "Inc." (corporation, or whatever), not just a "Limited Liability Company" to do that.  My family's business is an LLC, which means I could get a MG without the LEO signoff!  Sweet. BTW, I might be willing to go in on a WI Arfcom organization. Never mind I mis read the post....., IIRC a LLC will work as long as the LLC can hold items and the otherpost photoman you dont list on the form 1 or 4 who can own it that would be listed in the bylaws of the corp if i understand right

Ray I got to see but the way it was told me is that if has to be listed on the form as well, and you don't have to list anyone but yourself if you don't want to on the form. It's would be a good question to throw at the NFA guys....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A little OT: Are you guys saying that an LLC can buy Class III items?  That changes my whole outlook on life!  I thought it had to be an "Inc." (corporation, or whatever), not just a "Limited Liability Company" to do that.  My family's business is an LLC, which means I could get a MG without the LEO signoff!  Sweet. BTW, I might be willing to go in on a WI Arfcom organization. Never mind I mis read the post....., IIRC a LLC will work as long as the LLC can hold items and the otherpost photoman you dont list on the form 1 or 4 who can own it that would be listed in the bylaws of the corp if i understand right Ray I got to see but the way it was told me is that if has to be listed on the form as well, and you don't have to list anyone but yourself if you don't want to on the form. It's would be a good question to throw at the NFA guys.... what you were told was that you have to send a copy of your articals of incorpation..dont even say noting about the spelling on that one but im sure you know what i mean

Ray the articals of incorporation are in addition to listing on the form who can posses the particular item. YOu could have 12 people who are allowed tyo posses NFA items under the corp, but you have to list who can posses each individual item too as I've been told. I'll have to ask a couple people.

Sorry I've missed this thread.  AnnieO and I are already an LLC, and I didn't even think about the Class3 route (I thought it had to be an S or E type corp).

The issue may be taxes.  An LLC can be set up to be taxed as a partnership (pass-through profit and loss, according to the ownership percentages that are pre-determined) or as a corp ("company" tax liability, with specific rules as to profit and loss sharing).

We can talk more on this in Oct., and I'd say we're in, but at some point in the not-too-distant future, we might move to IN, so I'm not sure about our long-term commitment ability.

-FMD

PS, If it's a partnership LLC, online setup without a lawyer is the way to go (incredibly easy), although we'd prolly want one just to deal with the Class 3 aspect...

Quoted: I would think a lawyer drawing up the rules would be a good thing just to keep every thing friendly.

...and fair, equitable, etc.

I think we could hash out a rough draft pretty quickly over a coupla beers and a campfire.  Rocket science it aint.

Quoted: Quoted: I would think a lawyer drawing up the rules would be a good thing just to keep every thing friendly. ...and fair, equitable, etc. I think we could hash out a rough draft pretty quickly over a coupla beers and a campfire.  Rocket science it aint.

Well I think we could come up with a camp fire sometime in the middle of Oct. and even some beers too.



BC IM on the way to ya.

Quoted: you guys get to chat about it at the shoot?

Not that I'm aware of. But I crashed out early Sat night. So it could have come up.