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Posted: 9/28/2014 12:42:01 PM EST
Unbelievable,$100,000 plus pension earners in Rockland , Wetschester Counties as reported in today's Journal News. Double dipping reported as well. " Well some one has got to do the job" "We work hard" "I missed my kids game today"
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 12:50:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2014 12:51:17 PM EST by Extorris]
$124k for a Chief? Figured it would be higher.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 1:11:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Extorris:
$124k for a Chief? Figured it would be higher.
View Quote


You forgot the double dipping as an under-sheriff $124,000 + $100,000= $224,000= Higher Tax and to hell with your children's future it will be taking care of by the Obama Barry administration. Talk about destruction of society as we know it has begun as reminded by today's article in the Journal News.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 1:19:52 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sdsquad1:

You forgot the double dipping as an under-sheriff $124,000 + $100,000= $224,000= Higher Tax and to hell with your children's future it will be taking care of by the Obama Barry administration. Talk about destruction of society as we know it has begun as reminded by today's article in the Journal News.
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Originally Posted By Sdsquad1:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
$124k for a Chief? Figured it would be higher.

You forgot the double dipping as an under-sheriff $124,000 + $100,000= $224,000= Higher Tax and to hell with your children's future it will be taking care of by the Obama Barry administration. Talk about destruction of society as we know it has begun as reminded by today's article in the Journal News.

We have some guys double dipping here too. We also have regular patrol cops in my county with higher pensions than that Chief's $124k.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 2:05:56 PM EST
The bright side for the taxpayers, and the downside for the pensioners, is that eventually gravity and the courts are going to address this nonsense and then everyone is going to learn the new meaning of the word "haircut". $100K+ pensions are practically the norm on Long Island now and is unsustainable. The billions in tax dollars being spent on a retired workforce that produces nothing just cannot go on indefinitely. Either we will reach the point where they are literally confiscating people's entire paychecks and property to keep up with the payments or the pensions will have to be recalculated at pennies to the dollar. Many states including New York have constitutional provisions protecting pensions but the U.S. Constitution does not and there has not yet been a Federal Bankruptcy Court ruling on whether or not pensions obligation can be discharged through Federal bankruptcy. It was looking like Detroit would be the test case but, as has been the case in all municipal bankruptcy cases to date, the parties have made concessions and settlements in order to avoid what would probably be a precedent setting decision that pensions CAN be discharged through bankruptcy. The municipal employees and unions do not want such a decision so are making small concessions and agreements in order to prevent such a decision from being possible. However, it will definitely reach a point where someone does not agree to a settlement and the courts will have to rule. Then maybe we can get our fiscal houses in order, roll out 401K type savings plans to employees and make everyone responsible for his/her retirement savings.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 3:06:12 PM EST
The 20 and out with full pension is a little much. Not to mention 50% of you high 3 is a lot of money..tax money. They should have to wait until at least 52 years old to collect.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 3:21:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
The bright side for the taxpayers, and the downside for the pensioners, is that eventually gravity and the courts are going to address this nonsense and then everyone is going to learn the new meaning of the word "haircut". $100K+ pensions are practically the norm on Long Island now and is unsustainable. The billions in tax dollars being spent on a retired workforce that produces nothing just cannot go on indefinitely. Either we will reach the point where they are literally confiscating people's entire paychecks and property to keep up with the payments or the pensions will have to be recalculated at pennies to the dollar. Many states including New York have constitutional provisions protecting pensions but the U.S. Constitution does not and there has not yet been a Federal Bankruptcy Court ruling on whether or not pensions obligation can be discharged through Federal bankruptcy. It was looking like Detroit would be the test case but, as has been the case in all municipal bankruptcy cases to date, the parties have made concessions and settlements in order to avoid what would probably be a precedent setting decision that pensions CAN be discharged through bankruptcy. The municipal employees and unions do not want such a decision so are making small concessions and agreements in order to prevent such a decision from being possible. However, it will definitely reach a point where someone does not agree to a settlement and the courts will have to rule. Then maybe we can get our fiscal houses in order, roll out 401K type savings plans to employees and make everyone responsible for his/her retirement savings.
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One year I got a raise of $6000 and tried to give back 1/3 they wouldn't take it due to union negotiations. My pension is good but nothing like anything reported in the Journal News .
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 3:34:01 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Htown156:
The 20 and out with full pension is a little much. Not to mention 50% of you high 3 is a lot of money..tax money. They should have to wait until at least 52 years old to collect.
View Quote



Supplemental aka Christmas bonus extra $12,000 less tax+/- $9500 clear a year on top of the pension in NYC. Why?
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 6:29:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2014 6:43:21 PM EST by Extorris]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sdsquad1:

Supplemental aka Christmas bonus extra $12,000 less tax+/- $9500 clear a year on top of the pension in NYC. Why?
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Originally Posted By Sdsquad1:
Originally Posted By Htown156:
The 20 and out with full pension is a little much. Not to mention 50% of you high 3 is a lot of money..tax money. They should have to wait until at least 52 years old to collect.

Supplemental aka Christmas bonus extra $12,000 less tax+/- $9500 clear a year on top of the pension in NYC. Why?

Because Mayor Lindsey was a fucking moron and Mayor Koch was an even bigger moron who borrowed the funds to fill holes in his budget in exchange for the payouts.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 9:49:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Supplemental aka Christmas bonus extra $12,000 less tax+/- $9500 clear a year on top of the pension in NYC. Why?
Because Mayor Lindsey was a fucking moron and Mayor Koch was an even bigger moron who borrowed the funds to fill holes in his budget in exchange for the payouts.
View Quote


Exactly ^^^^^^
Borrowed money from the unions to save the city from financial ruin.......now everyone complains about repaying the cash that was borrowed. Meanwhile the city made millions from that money.
The so called "Christmas bonus".

Am I off base, Extorris?
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 9:51:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:
Borrowed money from the unions to save the city from financial ruin.......now everyone complains about repaying the cash that was borrowed. Meanwhile the city made millions from that money.
The so called "Christmas bonus".
Am I off base, Extorris?
View Quote

No, that's about right.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 10:19:29 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
$100K+ pensions are practically the norm on Long Island now and is unsustainable.
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100K pension based on what salary?
LI is an expensive place to live and I'm sure the guys pulling down 100K pensions earned well over 100K while employed.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 11:16:01 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:


Exactly ^^^^^^
Borrowed money from the unions to save the city from financial ruin.......now everyone complains about repaying the cash that was borrowed. Meanwhile the city made millions from that money.
The so called "Christmas bonus".

Am I off base, Extorris?
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Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Supplemental aka Christmas bonus extra $12,000 less tax+/- $9500 clear a year on top of the pension in NYC. Why?
Because Mayor Lindsey was a fucking moron and Mayor Koch was an even bigger moron who borrowed the funds to fill holes in his budget in exchange for the payouts.


Exactly ^^^^^^
Borrowed money from the unions to save the city from financial ruin.......now everyone complains about repaying the cash that was borrowed. Meanwhile the city made millions from that money.
The so called "Christmas bonus".

Am I off base, Extorris?


It is NOT a bonus. It is payback for using the pension fund to bail out the city. It was negotiated, and it is not taxpayer money.
Link Posted: 9/28/2014 11:18:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
The bright side for the taxpayers, and the downside for the pensioners, is that eventually gravity and the courts are going to address this nonsense and then everyone is going to learn the new meaning of the word "haircut". $100K+ pensions are practically the norm on Long Island now and is unsustainable. The billions in tax dollars being spent on a retired workforce that produces nothing just cannot go on indefinitely. Either we will reach the point where they are literally confiscating people's entire paychecks and property to keep up with the payments or the pensions will have to be recalculated at pennies to the dollar. Many states including New York have constitutional provisions protecting pensions but the U.S. Constitution does not and there has not yet been a Federal Bankruptcy Court ruling on whether or not pensions obligation can be discharged through Federal bankruptcy. It was looking like Detroit would be the test case but, as has been the case in all municipal bankruptcy cases to date, the parties have made concessions and settlements in order to avoid what would probably be a precedent setting decision that pensions CAN be discharged through bankruptcy. The municipal employees and unions do not want such a decision so are making small concessions and agreements in order to prevent such a decision from being possible. However, it will definitely reach a point where someone does not agree to a settlement and the courts will have to rule. Then maybe we can get our fiscal houses in order, roll out 401K type savings plans to employees and make everyone responsible for his/her retirement savings.
View Quote


Even on Long Island the pensions are NOT $100k for the average retiree. Only for high ranking Officers, Judges, High ranking school officials.
And the NYS Constitution calls pensions a "contractual relationship", granting them protection under the US Constitution Contracts Clause.

As well, there is NO legal basis for a State to go bankrupt.

So stop worrying about haircuts and take the test if you are jealous.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 3:14:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 4:46:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aimless:
1/3 of Democrats voted against Cuomo in the primary for not being liberal enough. 2/3 of the state is Democrat. The Democrats are probably going to take the Senate this fall. There will be no reigning in public employee unions in NY, ever. The state will eventually become a giant Detroit.
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
The bright side for the taxpayers, and the downside for the pensioners, is that eventually gravity and the courts are going to address this nonsense and then everyone is going to learn the new meaning of the word "haircut". $100K+ pensions are practically the norm on Long Island now and is unsustainable. The billions in tax dollars being spent on a retired workforce that produces nothing just cannot go on indefinitely. Either we will reach the point where they are literally confiscating people's entire paychecks and property to keep up with the payments or the pensions will have to be recalculated at pennies to the dollar. Many states including New York have constitutional provisions protecting pensions but the U.S. Constitution does not and there has not yet been a Federal Bankruptcy Court ruling on whether or not pensions obligation can be discharged through Federal bankruptcy. It was looking like Detroit would be the test case but, as has been the case in all municipal bankruptcy cases to date, the parties have made concessions and settlements in order to avoid what would probably be a precedent setting decision that pensions CAN be discharged through bankruptcy. The municipal employees and unions do not want such a decision so are making small concessions and agreements in order to prevent such a decision from being possible. However, it will definitely reach a point where someone does not agree to a settlement and the courts will have to rule. Then maybe we can get our fiscal houses in order, roll out 401K type savings plans to employees and make everyone responsible for his/her retirement savings.
1/3 of Democrats voted against Cuomo in the primary for not being liberal enough. 2/3 of the state is Democrat. The Democrats are probably going to take the Senate this fall. There will be no reigning in public employee unions in NY, ever. The state will eventually become a giant Detroit.


Detroit had a pension system that was UNDERFUNDED by over 70%...in contrast the NYC and NYS pension system is almost 70% FUNDED....which means it pays for itself due to good investment practice.

You can't take everything you hear in the news as all truth......we all here should know that. There are three sides to every story....yours...theirs....and the truth.
The media puts a spin on everything.....as well as the politicians...Bloomberg had said in the news about getting rid of "the Christmas Bonus", BUT then he found out the truth...That is was SOUND BUSINESS PRACTICE on the part of the unions...and NEVER said another word about it!!!

As scosgt said, take a test, get a job with a pension.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 4:49:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 6:07:53 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Sorry not really looking to spend twenty years standing next to a metal detector.
View Quote

So Aimless in retirement wearing Bermudas, an old fishermans hat and stumbling down the beach waving a metal detector around looking for spare change in the sand while mumbling wildly to himself and scaring other beach-goers isn't going to happen.
That's good to know
Oh, not THAT kind of metal detector......
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 7:29:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Sorry not really looking to spend twenty years standing next to a metal detector.
View Quote


That's your choice....nobody is twisting your arm to take a test. Just don't begrudge someone who did.

It is the same old song and dance...when the economy is in the tank the civil servants get attacked for their pension.
A pension that some worked 25, 30 or more years for.
It has now become commonplace for pension numbers to be in the news.
Why don't they post how much the senior editor or the owner of the "rag" makes? They don't want you to know that.

No one complains when the fat financial cats pull down millions upon millions of dollars as some Wall Street CEOs have during good financial times.
Money that is made off of the backs of their investors, which could be any or all of us.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 10:51:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2014 10:59:08 AM EST by Sdsquad1]
Come on this sounds like a sack of snit to me. I'm not the governments partner . I'm tired of hearing horse shit from the rank and file. Oh we did this we did that. Lets look at the private sector say what you want its private . You want to make a million dollars, invest in the market . But to always rally the point that we bailed out the city is getting old. Lets just look at the pension. For $5000 a month check you need about 1.5 million for that return depending on the market of course. Here's one example today. Ex-cop double dips A well connected former chief is making $305,000a year with a pension of $120,000 . He is now receiving $185,000 a year in his new anti- corruption chief job . The post quote the ex-top cop has no experience for the new job but most likely landed it because of close ties to the 'powerful corrections union leaders. You don't say
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 11:03:13 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:


That's your choice....nobody is twisting your arm to take a test. Just don't begrudge someone who did.

It is the same old song and dance...when the economy is in the tank the civil servants get attacked for their pension.
A pension that some worked 25, 30 or more years for.
It has now become commonplace for pension numbers to be in the news.
Why don't they post how much the senior editor or the owner of the "rag" makes? They don't want you to know that.

No one complains when the fat financial cats pull down millions upon millions of dollars as some Wall Street CEOs have during good financial times.
Money that is made off of the backs of their investors, which could be any or all of us.
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Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Sorry not really looking to spend twenty years standing next to a metal detector.


That's your choice....nobody is twisting your arm to take a test. Just don't begrudge someone who did.

It is the same old song and dance...when the economy is in the tank the civil servants get attacked for their pension.
A pension that some worked 25, 30 or more years for.
It has now become commonplace for pension numbers to be in the news.
Why don't they post how much the senior editor or the owner of the "rag" makes? They don't want you to know that.

No one complains when the fat financial cats pull down millions upon millions of dollars as some Wall Street CEOs have during good financial times.
Money that is made off of the backs of their investors, which could be any or all of us.


BS...the difference is, whether we like it or not, that the senior editor of the "rag" is an employee of a private business, not a "civil servant" who was able to manipulate (and shame on those who allowed it) the system due to their contract, and then suck an exorbitant amount from the taxpayers for the next pontentially 20-30 years.

We see how it works all the time out here...police officers ready to retire max out overtime their last year or two....guys give them their overtime, knowing when its their time, they'll get the same consideration, and then get a somewhat artificially inflated pension.

Can I blame someone for working the system to their advantage? I guess not....But also, don't expect me to smile and be happy when someone hands me a shit sammich and tells me to take a bite...
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 12:12:52 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sdsquad1:
Come on this sounds like a sack of snit to me. I'm not the governments partner . I'm tired of hearing horse shit from the rank and file. Oh we did this we did that. Lets look at the private sector say what you want its private . You want to make a million dollars, invest in the market . But to always rally the point that we bailed out the city is getting old. Lets just look at the pension. For $5000 a month check you need about 1.5 million for that return depending on the market of course. Here's one example today. Ex-cop double dips A well connected former chief is making $305,000a year with a pension of $120,000 . He is now receiving $185,000 a year in his new anti- corruption chief job . The post quote the ex-top cop has no experience for the new job but most likely landed it because of close ties to the 'powerful corrections union leaders. You don't say
View Quote

You keep bringing up large administrator pensions as if they're the norm.
Of course those who have connections will find new jobs through those connections
The same thing happens in the private sector.
I'm guessing that your example went to another jurisdiction for his new job and its associated pension.
Completely legal.
Your typical rank and file guys are not getting pension checks of 5 K a month. maybe the guys around extorris' area simply because the cost of living is so high down there...but then so are their pension contributions as a percentage of their salary.
Any other complaints?
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 12:15:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I'm guessing that your example went to another jurisdiction for his new job and its associated pension.
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Retired from NYPD and got hired by NYC Corrections.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 1:29:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Extorris:

Retired from NYPD and got hired by NYC Corrections.
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Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I'm guessing that your example went to another jurisdiction for his new job and its associated pension.

Retired from NYPD and got hired by NYC Corrections.


That would require a waiver. Ordinarily a person on a public pension is limited to $30K per year earnings at any other public employer, or the pension stops.

Obviously they could justify that he had some skill they needed, else no waiver.

OR, he was not yet in retirement status, just changed City jobs. Same employer. Generally, you can not retire from a City job and take another City job. Most people who do get a waiver go to another employer.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 1:35:03 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scosgt:


That would require a waiver. Ordinarily a person on a public pension is limited to $30K per year earnings at any other public employer, or the pension stops.

Obviously they could justify that he had some skill they needed, else no waiver.

OR, he was not yet in retirement status, just changed City jobs. Same employer. Generally, you can not retire from a City job and take another City job. Most people who do get a waiver go to another employer.
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Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I'm guessing that your example went to another jurisdiction for his new job and its associated pension.

Retired from NYPD and got hired by NYC Corrections.


That would require a waiver. Ordinarily a person on a public pension is limited to $30K per year earnings at any other public employer, or the pension stops.

Obviously they could justify that he had some skill they needed, else no waiver.

OR, he was not yet in retirement status, just changed City jobs. Same employer. Generally, you can not retire from a City job and take another City job. Most people who do get a waiver go to another employer.

He got a waiver.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 4:34:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Extorris:

He got a waiver.
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Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I'm guessing that your example went to another jurisdiction for his new job and its associated pension.

Retired from NYPD and got hired by NYC Corrections.


That would require a waiver. Ordinarily a person on a public pension is limited to $30K per year earnings at any other public employer, or the pension stops.

Obviously they could justify that he had some skill they needed, else no waiver.

OR, he was not yet in retirement status, just changed City jobs. Same employer. Generally, you can not retire from a City job and take another City job. Most people who do get a waiver go to another employer.

He got a waiver.


He did get the wavier but also asked the pension board to defer his pension for now. I guess that would include his supplement of $12 K as well . He claims there is to much distraction at this time.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 5:45:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sdsquad1:




He did get the wavier but also asked the pension board to defer his pension for now. I guess that would include his supplement of $12 K as well . He claims there is to much distraction at this time.
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Originally Posted By Sdsquad1:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I'm guessing that your example went to another jurisdiction for his new job and its associated pension.

Retired from NYPD and got hired by NYC Corrections.


That would require a waiver. Ordinarily a person on a public pension is limited to $30K per year earnings at any other public employer, or the pension stops.

Obviously they could justify that he had some skill they needed, else no waiver.

OR, he was not yet in retirement status, just changed City jobs. Same employer. Generally, you can not retire from a City job and take another City job. Most people who do get a waiver go to another employer.

He got a waiver.




He did get the wavier but also asked the pension board to defer his pension for now. I guess that would include his supplement of $12 K as well . He claims there is to much distraction at this time.


If he defers his pension the time he does now will count. So his pension will eventually be larger. However, since he is NOT collecting now, he is NOT doing anything wrong. He is a person going to work every day for a paycheck, just like everyone else.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 9:33:15 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Htown156:
The 20 and out with full pension is a little much. Not to mention 50% of you high 3 is a lot of money..tax money. They should have to wait until at least 52 years old to collect.
View Quote


i know it would be incredibly difficult, let a lone dangerous if i had to push to 52 in my job.
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 9:34:51 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:


Detroit had a pension system that was UNDERFUNDED by over 70%...in contrast the NYC and NYS pension system is almost 70% FUNDED....which means it pays for itself due to good investment practice.

You can't take everything you hear in the news as all truth......we all here should know that. There are three sides to every story....yours...theirs....and the truth.
The media puts a spin on everything.....as well as the politicians...Bloomberg had said in the news about getting rid of "the Christmas Bonus", BUT then he found out the truth...That is was SOUND BUSINESS PRACTICE on the part of the unions...and NEVER said another word about it!!!

As scosgt said, take a test, get a job with a pension.
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Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
The bright side for the taxpayers, and the downside for the pensioners, is that eventually gravity and the courts are going to address this nonsense and then everyone is going to learn the new meaning of the word "haircut". $100K+ pensions are practically the norm on Long Island now and is unsustainable. The billions in tax dollars being spent on a retired workforce that produces nothing just cannot go on indefinitely. Either we will reach the point where they are literally confiscating people's entire paychecks and property to keep up with the payments or the pensions will have to be recalculated at pennies to the dollar. Many states including New York have constitutional provisions protecting pensions but the U.S. Constitution does not and there has not yet been a Federal Bankruptcy Court ruling on whether or not pensions obligation can be discharged through Federal bankruptcy. It was looking like Detroit would be the test case but, as has been the case in all municipal bankruptcy cases to date, the parties have made concessions and settlements in order to avoid what would probably be a precedent setting decision that pensions CAN be discharged through bankruptcy. The municipal employees and unions do not want such a decision so are making small concessions and agreements in order to prevent such a decision from being possible. However, it will definitely reach a point where someone does not agree to a settlement and the courts will have to rule. Then maybe we can get our fiscal houses in order, roll out 401K type savings plans to employees and make everyone responsible for his/her retirement savings.
1/3 of Democrats voted against Cuomo in the primary for not being liberal enough. 2/3 of the state is Democrat. The Democrats are probably going to take the Senate this fall. There will be no reigning in public employee unions in NY, ever. The state will eventually become a giant Detroit.


Detroit had a pension system that was UNDERFUNDED by over 70%...in contrast the NYC and NYS pension system is almost 70% FUNDED....which means it pays for itself due to good investment practice.

You can't take everything you hear in the news as all truth......we all here should know that. There are three sides to every story....yours...theirs....and the truth.
The media puts a spin on everything.....as well as the politicians...Bloomberg had said in the news about getting rid of "the Christmas Bonus", BUT then he found out the truth...That is was SOUND BUSINESS PRACTICE on the part of the unions...and NEVER said another word about it!!!

As scosgt said, take a test, get a job with a pension.


last i read the comptrollers letter. NYS PFRS is over 100% funded right now.. 102% IIRC
Link Posted: 9/29/2014 11:03:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scosgt:


It is NOT a bonus. It is payback for using the pension fund to bail out the city. It was negotiated, and it is not taxpayer money.
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Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Supplemental aka Christmas bonus extra $12,000 less tax+/- $9500 clear a year on top of the pension in NYC. Why?
Because Mayor Lindsey was a fucking moron and Mayor Koch was an even bigger moron who borrowed the funds to fill holes in his budget in exchange for the payouts.


Exactly ^^^^^^
Borrowed money from the unions to save the city from financial ruin.......now everyone complains about repaying the cash that was borrowed. Meanwhile the city made millions from that money.
The so called "Christmas bonus".

Am I off base, Extorris?


It is NOT a bonus. It is payback for using the pension fund to bail out the city. It was negotiated, and it is not taxpayer money.
Not disputing any other point of your post and not saying that civil servants don't usually work relatively low paying jobs at the beginning of their career before they get into the top pay & OT but where do you think the money the city spends comes from? Of course it's tax payer money.
Link Posted: 9/30/2014 12:01:02 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StoutOfHeart:
Not disputing any other point of your post and not saying that civil servants don't usually work relatively low paying jobs at the beginning of their career before they get into the top pay & OT but where do you think the money the city spends comes from? Of course it's tax payer money.
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Originally Posted By StoutOfHeart:
Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Supplemental aka Christmas bonus extra $12,000 less tax+/- $9500 clear a year on top of the pension in NYC. Why?
Because Mayor Lindsey was a fucking moron and Mayor Koch was an even bigger moron who borrowed the funds to fill holes in his budget in exchange for the payouts.


Exactly ^^^^^^
Borrowed money from the unions to save the city from financial ruin.......now everyone complains about repaying the cash that was borrowed. Meanwhile the city made millions from that money.
The so called "Christmas bonus".

Am I off base, Extorris?


It is NOT a bonus. It is payback for using the pension fund to bail out the city. It was negotiated, and it is not taxpayer money.
Not disputing any other point of your post and not saying that civil servants don't usually work relatively low paying jobs at the beginning of their career before they get into the top pay & OT but where do you think the money the city spends comes from? Of course it's tax payer money.


The pension funds do not belong to the City/State. ALL the money belongs to the MEMBERS. That is how pension funds work.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 8:36:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2014 8:37:02 AM EST by Aardvark]
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Originally Posted By Shott8283:


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Originally Posted By Shott8283:
Originally Posted By ar-15-223-556:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
The bright side for the taxpayers, and the downside for the pensioners, is that eventually gravity and the courts are going to address this nonsense and then everyone is going to learn the new meaning of the word "haircut". $100K+ pensions are practically the norm on Long Island now and is unsustainable. The billions in tax dollars being spent on a retired workforce that produces nothing just cannot go on indefinitely. Either we will reach the point where they are literally confiscating people's entire paychecks and property to keep up with the payments or the pensions will have to be recalculated at pennies to the dollar. Many states including New York have constitutional provisions protecting pensions but the U.S. Constitution does not and there has not yet been a Federal Bankruptcy Court ruling on whether or not pensions obligation can be discharged through Federal bankruptcy. It was looking like Detroit would be the test case but, as has been the case in all municipal bankruptcy cases to date, the parties have made concessions and settlements in order to avoid what would probably be a precedent setting decision that pensions CAN be discharged through bankruptcy. The municipal employees and unions do not want such a decision so are making small concessions and agreements in order to prevent such a decision from being possible. However, it will definitely reach a point where someone does not agree to a settlement and the courts will have to rule. Then maybe we can get our fiscal houses in order, roll out 401K type savings plans to employees and make everyone responsible for his/her retirement savings.
1/3 of Democrats voted against Cuomo in the primary for not being liberal enough. 2/3 of the state is Democrat. The Democrats are probably going to take the Senate this fall. There will be no reigning in public employee unions in NY, ever. The state will eventually become a giant Detroit.


Detroit had a pension system that was UNDERFUNDED by over 70%...in contrast the NYC and NYS pension system is almost 70% FUNDED....which means it pays for itself due to good investment practice.

You can't take everything you hear in the news as all truth......we all here should know that. There are three sides to every story....yours...theirs....and the truth.
The media puts a spin on everything.....as well as the politicians...Bloomberg had said in the news about getting rid of "the Christmas Bonus", BUT then he found out the truth...That is was SOUND BUSINESS PRACTICE on the part of the unions...and NEVER said another word about it!!!

As scosgt said, take a test, get a job with a pension.


last i read the comptrollers letter. NYS PFRS is over 100% funded right now.. 102% IIRC

Indeed it is depending upon the accounting rules used. If they followed GAAP like all corporations are required to do and what Sarbanes-Oxley requires CEO's to sign off on then pension funding is not very good. But it is the government and they can take the money, as much as needed, from the taxpayers to fill the hole so yes they are 100% funded
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 1:32:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Shott8283:



i know it would be incredibly difficult, let a lone dangerous if i had to push to 52 in my job.
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Originally Posted By Shott8283:
Originally Posted By Htown156:
The 20 and out with full pension is a little much. Not to mention 50% of you high 3 is a lot of money..tax money. They should have to wait until at least 52 years old to collect.



i know it would be incredibly difficult, let a lone dangerous if i had to push to 52 in my job.


That doesn't mean you should get a full pension for up to 60+ years for working 20.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 3:05:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 3:13:13 PM EST
Not trying to argue with anyone, but LEO's pay taxes too, where do those go?
Also, I was under the impression that pension comes from members contributions, not from state, or fed.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 3:28:03 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KNIGHTENFORCER:
Not trying to argue with anyone, but LEO's pay taxes too, where do those go?
Also, I was under the impression that pension comes from members contributions, not from state, or fed.
View Quote


This is NYS...whoever signed the fucked up contract whenever agreed that if the public employee pension fund fell below 100% funded, due to piss poor management, the market tanking, bad investments, acts of god, swindling, whatever...that it had to be made up using tax dollars...

Imagine if you will you have your 401k, and you invested in Cylindra, 100%...and when they went bankrupt (of course after receiving millions of taxpayer money from Obama...) therefore you are bankrupt, your employer has to replenish your 401k to its original value...neat trick huh? Well, their employer has to get the money from taxpayers. Its like gambling without the possibility of loss. But thats not really gambling, is it?

If you qualify and get a $100k pension, it is probably a pretty sure bet your contributions do not equal what you get paid out, so the system depends on your investing the pension fund money, and it growing so the fund manager can make the paypouts eventually. In the real world, if the world crashes, and therefore so does your retirement, you are SOL, but because of the contract here, NYS pensioners get their pensions regardless....and you have to pay for them if bad choices were made, or the market tanks...pretty good gig if you can get it.

Again, I don't blame those who are the recipients, I'd sign that dotted line too...the dumbasses are the ones who negotiated the contracts on our behalf. Of course they probably made out liek bandits from kickbacks, etc, and why not, who the fuck cares its the unwashed masses on taxpayers who are ultimately on the hook....
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 6:31:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:


This is NYS...whoever signed the fucked up contract whenever agreed that if the public employee pension fund fell below 100% funded, due to piss poor management, the market tanking, bad investments, acts of god, swindling, whatever...that it had to be made up using tax dollars...

Imagine if you will you have your 401k, and you invested in Cylindra, 100%...and when they went bankrupt (of course after receiving millions of taxpayer money from Obama...) therefore you are bankrupt, your employer has to replenish your 401k to its original value...neat trick huh? Well, their employer has to get the money from taxpayers. Its like gambling without the possibility of loss. But thats not really gambling, is it?

If you qualify and get a $100k pension, it is probably a pretty sure bet your contributions do not equal what you get paid out, so the system depends on your investing the pension fund money, and it growing so the fund manager can make the paypouts eventually. In the real world, if the world crashes, and therefore so does your retirement, you are SOL, but because of the contract here, NYS pensioners get their pensions regardless....and you have to pay for them if bad choices were made, or the market tanks...pretty good gig if you can get it.

Again, I don't blame those who are the recipients, I'd sign that dotted line too...the dumbasses are the ones who negotiated the contracts on our behalf. Of course they probably made out liek bandits from kickbacks, etc, and why not, who the fuck cares its the unwashed masses on taxpayers who are ultimately on the hook....
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By KNIGHTENFORCER:
Not trying to argue with anyone, but LEO's pay taxes too, where do those go?
Also, I was under the impression that pension comes from members contributions, not from state, or fed.


This is NYS...whoever signed the fucked up contract whenever agreed that if the public employee pension fund fell below 100% funded, due to piss poor management, the market tanking, bad investments, acts of god, swindling, whatever...that it had to be made up using tax dollars...

Imagine if you will you have your 401k, and you invested in Cylindra, 100%...and when they went bankrupt (of course after receiving millions of taxpayer money from Obama...) therefore you are bankrupt, your employer has to replenish your 401k to its original value...neat trick huh? Well, their employer has to get the money from taxpayers. Its like gambling without the possibility of loss. But thats not really gambling, is it?

If you qualify and get a $100k pension, it is probably a pretty sure bet your contributions do not equal what you get paid out, so the system depends on your investing the pension fund money, and it growing so the fund manager can make the paypouts eventually. In the real world, if the world crashes, and therefore so does your retirement, you are SOL, but because of the contract here, NYS pensioners get their pensions regardless....and you have to pay for them if bad choices were made, or the market tanks...pretty good gig if you can get it.

Again, I don't blame those who are the recipients, I'd sign that dotted line too...the dumbasses are the ones who negotiated the contracts on our behalf. Of course they probably made out liek bandits from kickbacks, etc, and why not, who the fuck cares its the unwashed masses on taxpayers who are ultimately on the hook....


These are not contracts. Pensions are not contractual. They are a matter of law AND the State Constitution. Pensions are not the subject of Collective Bargaining.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 7:57:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By scosgt:


These are not contracts. Pensions are not contractual. They are a matter of law AND the State Constitution. Pensions are not the subject of Collective Bargaining.
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Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By KNIGHTENFORCER:
Not trying to argue with anyone, but LEO's pay taxes too, where do those go?
Also, I was under the impression that pension comes from members contributions, not from state, or fed.


This is NYS...whoever signed the fucked up contract whenever agreed that if the public employee pension fund fell below 100% funded, due to piss poor management, the market tanking, bad investments, acts of god, swindling, whatever...that it had to be made up using tax dollars...

Imagine if you will you have your 401k, and you invested in Cylindra, 100%...and when they went bankrupt (of course after receiving millions of taxpayer money from Obama...) therefore you are bankrupt, your employer has to replenish your 401k to its original value...neat trick huh? Well, their employer has to get the money from taxpayers. Its like gambling without the possibility of loss. But thats not really gambling, is it?

If you qualify and get a $100k pension, it is probably a pretty sure bet your contributions do not equal what you get paid out, so the system depends on your investing the pension fund money, and it growing so the fund manager can make the paypouts eventually. In the real world, if the world crashes, and therefore so does your retirement, you are SOL, but because of the contract here, NYS pensioners get their pensions regardless....and you have to pay for them if bad choices were made, or the market tanks...pretty good gig if you can get it.

Again, I don't blame those who are the recipients, I'd sign that dotted line too...the dumbasses are the ones who negotiated the contracts on our behalf. Of course they probably made out liek bandits from kickbacks, etc, and why not, who the fuck cares its the unwashed masses on taxpayers who are ultimately on the hook....


These are not contracts. Pensions are not contractual. They are a matter of law AND the State Constitution. Pensions are not the subject of Collective Bargaining.


Ok, semantics, apparently NY and NYC had fucked things up so bad via contracts, they had to change the system statewide...according to this...

http://www.publicsectorinc.org/2014/08/whats-really-behind-the-nyc-pension-crisis/

And the last paragraph..."But the real message in New York, where first municipal officials and then state legislators have conspired to inflate pensions beyond affordable levels, is that defined benefit retirement systems where pensions are guaranteed and taxpayers are the ultimate backstop are irresistible vehicles of irresponsibility for politicians and unions"

It doesn't change the fact that NYS taxpayers are on the hook when things go bad....there are no such protections in the private sector...
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 8:59:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:


Ok, semantics, apparently NY and NYC had fucked things up so bad via contracts, they had to change the system statewide...according to this...

http://www.publicsectorinc.org/2014/08/whats-really-behind-the-nyc-pension-crisis/

And the last paragraph..."But the real message in New York, where first municipal officials and then state legislators have conspired to inflate pensions beyond affordable levels, is that defined benefit retirement systems where pensions are guaranteed and taxpayers are the ultimate backstop are irresistible vehicles of irresponsibility for politicians and unions"

It doesn't change the fact that NYS taxpayers are on the hook when things go bad....there are no such protections in the private sector...
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By KNIGHTENFORCER:
Not trying to argue with anyone, but LEO's pay taxes too, where do those go?
Also, I was under the impression that pension comes from members contributions, not from state, or fed.


This is NYS...whoever signed the fucked up contract whenever agreed that if the public employee pension fund fell below 100% funded, due to piss poor management, the market tanking, bad investments, acts of god, swindling, whatever...that it had to be made up using tax dollars...

Imagine if you will you have your 401k, and you invested in Cylindra, 100%...and when they went bankrupt (of course after receiving millions of taxpayer money from Obama...) therefore you are bankrupt, your employer has to replenish your 401k to its original value...neat trick huh? Well, their employer has to get the money from taxpayers. Its like gambling without the possibility of loss. But thats not really gambling, is it?

If you qualify and get a $100k pension, it is probably a pretty sure bet your contributions do not equal what you get paid out, so the system depends on your investing the pension fund money, and it growing so the fund manager can make the paypouts eventually. In the real world, if the world crashes, and therefore so does your retirement, you are SOL, but because of the contract here, NYS pensioners get their pensions regardless....and you have to pay for them if bad choices were made, or the market tanks...pretty good gig if you can get it.

Again, I don't blame those who are the recipients, I'd sign that dotted line too...the dumbasses are the ones who negotiated the contracts on our behalf. Of course they probably made out liek bandits from kickbacks, etc, and why not, who the fuck cares its the unwashed masses on taxpayers who are ultimately on the hook....


These are not contracts. Pensions are not contractual. They are a matter of law AND the State Constitution. Pensions are not the subject of Collective Bargaining.


Ok, semantics, apparently NY and NYC had fucked things up so bad via contracts, they had to change the system statewide...according to this...

http://www.publicsectorinc.org/2014/08/whats-really-behind-the-nyc-pension-crisis/

And the last paragraph..."But the real message in New York, where first municipal officials and then state legislators have conspired to inflate pensions beyond affordable levels, is that defined benefit retirement systems where pensions are guaranteed and taxpayers are the ultimate backstop are irresistible vehicles of irresponsibility for politicians and unions"

It doesn't change the fact that NYS taxpayers are on the hook when things go bad....there are no such protections in the private sector...


I don't really want to get into this with you, but that is another puff piece by the Empire Center, which is a mouthpiece for the Fortune 500, which wants to eliminate all public sector benefits in order to make it easier to attract and keep employees while lining the pockets of the executives. Generally the author behind these articles is none other than E J McMahon, who is a retired deputy chancellor of SUNY and collects a REALLY big State pension. AND he purges that from the State Pension website he runs, to keep up the illusion.

In other words, it is not true just because you read it in the Times.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 9:21:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2014 9:23:22 PM EST by 98kGuy]
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Originally Posted By scosgt:


I don't really want to get into this with you, but that is another puff piece by the Empire Center, which is a mouthpiece for the Fortune 500, which wants to eliminate all public sector benefits in order to make it easier to attract and keep employees while lining the pockets of the executives. Generally the author behind these articles is none other than E J McMahon, who is a retired deputy chancellor of SUNY and collects a REALLY big State pension. AND he purges that from the State Pension website he runs, to keep up the illusion.

In other words, it is not true just because you read it in the Times.
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Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By KNIGHTENFORCER:
Not trying to argue with anyone, but LEO's pay taxes too, where do those go?
Also, I was under the impression that pension comes from members contributions, not from state, or fed.


This is NYS...whoever signed the fucked up contract whenever agreed that if the public employee pension fund fell below 100% funded, due to piss poor management, the market tanking, bad investments, acts of god, swindling, whatever...that it had to be made up using tax dollars...

Imagine if you will you have your 401k, and you invested in Cylindra, 100%...and when they went bankrupt (of course after receiving millions of taxpayer money from Obama...) therefore you are bankrupt, your employer has to replenish your 401k to its original value...neat trick huh? Well, their employer has to get the money from taxpayers. Its like gambling without the possibility of loss. But thats not really gambling, is it?

If you qualify and get a $100k pension, it is probably a pretty sure bet your contributions do not equal what you get paid out, so the system depends on your investing the pension fund money, and it growing so the fund manager can make the paypouts eventually. In the real world, if the world crashes, and therefore so does your retirement, you are SOL, but because of the contract here, NYS pensioners get their pensions regardless....and you have to pay for them if bad choices were made, or the market tanks...pretty good gig if you can get it.

Again, I don't blame those who are the recipients, I'd sign that dotted line too...the dumbasses are the ones who negotiated the contracts on our behalf. Of course they probably made out liek bandits from kickbacks, etc, and why not, who the fuck cares its the unwashed masses on taxpayers who are ultimately on the hook....


These are not contracts. Pensions are not contractual. They are a matter of law AND the State Constitution. Pensions are not the subject of Collective Bargaining.


Ok, semantics, apparently NY and NYC had fucked things up so bad via contracts, they had to change the system statewide...according to this...

http://www.publicsectorinc.org/2014/08/whats-really-behind-the-nyc-pension-crisis/

And the last paragraph..."But the real message in New York, where first municipal officials and then state legislators have conspired to inflate pensions beyond affordable levels, is that defined benefit retirement systems where pensions are guaranteed and taxpayers are the ultimate backstop are irresistible vehicles of irresponsibility for politicians and unions"

It doesn't change the fact that NYS taxpayers are on the hook when things go bad....there are no such protections in the private sector...


I don't really want to get into this with you, but that is another puff piece by the Empire Center, which is a mouthpiece for the Fortune 500, which wants to eliminate all public sector benefits in order to make it easier to attract and keep employees while lining the pockets of the executives. Generally the author behind these articles is none other than E J McMahon, who is a retired deputy chancellor of SUNY and collects a REALLY big State pension. AND he purges that from the State Pension website he runs, to keep up the illusion.

In other words, it is not true just because you read it in the Times.


Sorry for the big quote tree, but I am now on my IPad and it's a pain to trim...

So do you deny that the state pension fund has been set up in such a way that the taxpayers are responsible for replenishing the fund if it loses money, whether that be from stupid, risky investing, the state borrowing money robbing peter to pay Paul, or simply the market tanking and the fund losing its ass? Because that is a feature I would guess no private sector pension/401k fund provides, and for good reason. No company could afford it unless they had unlimited funds, like the gov does....

I am curious since this is a major problem I see with public sector pensions at least here in NYS. Why should the taxpayer be on the hook for essentially poorly managed funds or the greedy state taking from the coffers and not putting it back through smoke and mirrors?

The problem is, again, that these public sector benefits models stem from a time when the public sector could not compete with the private sector pay wise, and so had to compensate in such a way that they could attract workers. Times have changed, and now through whatever means, contracts or legislatively, public sector employees often make more pay than private sector employees, and still get better benefits in the long run.

That may be the way it is, but as a taxpayer I do not have to agree with it or like it. And I think it must change, or states and municipalities will be in deep doodoo....not that they aren't already. It's just the tip of the iceberg, but it's still an issue.....
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 9:29:46 PM EST


Taxpayers ARE responsible to the extent that the State Constitution guarantees pensions. So yes, they MUST be paid no matter what. AND, that is cast in stone. It is guaranteed by both the State and US Constitutions.

That being said, the NYS pension funds are very very healthy. They are currently 107% funded for ALL current and FUTURE liabilities, and local contributions have in fact been reduced - yes, the governments do have to contribute, it is an employment benefit. But in the worst of times there has been no real shortfall. They are not going to have to mortgage andy's humvee to pay my pension.

There have been big issues in other areas. NY's fund has been well managed. More importantly, the politicians have not been allowed to get their hands on the money, which is what happened in other places (McCall vs. Cuomo). Mario tried to get his hands on the money, he was a bigger fuck than andy. NOT ALLOWED.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 7:43:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2014 7:52:06 AM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 8:45:41 AM EST
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Originally Posted By scosgt:


Taxpayers ARE responsible to the extent that the State Constitution guarantees pensions. So yes, they MUST be paid no matter what. AND, that is cast in stone. It is guaranteed by both the State and US Constitutions.

View Quote


Really? That is news to me,,,the US Constitution guarantees pensions? Those wiley founding fathers, covered all bases....
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 12:52:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:


Really? That is news to me,,,the US Constitution guarantees pensions? Those wiley founding fathers, covered all bases....
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By scosgt:


Taxpayers ARE responsible to the extent that the State Constitution guarantees pensions. So yes, they MUST be paid no matter what. AND, that is cast in stone. It is guaranteed by both the State and US Constitutions.



Really? That is news to me,,,the US Constitution guarantees pensions? Those wiley founding fathers, covered all bases....


As I posted above, the State Constitution names the pension relationship "contractual".
The Contracts Clause of the US Constitution forbids a State from "impairing" a contract.

So yes, the NYS public sector pensions have US Constitutional protection.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 1:04:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By scosgt:


As I posted above, the State Constitution names the pension relationship "contractual".
The Contracts Clause of the US Constitution forbids a State from "impairing" a contract.

So yes, the NYS public sector pensions have US Constitutional protection.
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Originally Posted By scosgt:
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By scosgt:


Taxpayers ARE responsible to the extent that the State Constitution guarantees pensions. So yes, they MUST be paid no matter what. AND, that is cast in stone. It is guaranteed by both the State and US Constitutions.



Really? That is news to me,,,the US Constitution guarantees pensions? Those wiley founding fathers, covered all bases....


As I posted above, the State Constitution names the pension relationship "contractual".
The Contracts Clause of the US Constitution forbids a State from "impairing" a contract.

So yes, the NYS public sector pensions have US Constitutional protection.



Really hmm.. well than whats happening in Calf than Bankruptcy Judge in California Challenges Sanctity of Pensions

Nothing is really protected. No different then 2nd amendment is just look at the pistol license and the unsafe act.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:18:35 PM EST
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Originally Posted By cviss:

Really hmm.. well than whats happening in Calf than Bankruptcy Judge in California Challenges Sanctity of Pensions

Nothing is really protected. No different then 2nd amendment is just look at the pistol license and the unsafe act.
View Quote

Per my earlier post this is basically the kind of ruling that might save the taxpayers from unlimited liability. I did not know about this case and thought Detroit pretty much quashed any ruling on pension modifications.

As for NYS pensions being 100%+ funded, ask who is reporting that. Is the it the state reporting that or an independent outside auditing firm using standard accounting principles? It has to be the state because outside firms have pointed out the flaws in the state's accounting practices for years. The two biggest flaw in the state's calculations versus how private pensions are accounted for is the state uses aggressive returns that do not really exist (7.6% or close) and they use "today's dollars" as the number instead of looking forward 20 years to the value of the dollar and the additional liabilities that will hit as private companies are required to do. It is bad accounting but legal for governments to do. If a private company conducted its pension and business audits like the government, a lot of people would be going to jail for financial fraud.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:55:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
Over a quarter of my very high property taxes go to fund municipal Cadillac pensions, the rest mostly goes to Medicaid. None of my ridiculous property taxes benefits me in any way.

35% of the state employee pension are paid by taxes, about 60% from investment returns and only 5% is paid by employee contribution. The teacher retirements system gouges even a higher percentage from taxpayers
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By scosgt:


Taxpayers ARE responsible to the extent that the State Constitution guarantees pensions. So yes, they MUST be paid no matter what. AND, that is cast in stone. It is guaranteed by both the State and US Constitutions.

That being said, the NYS pension funds are very very healthy. They are currently 107% funded for ALL current and FUTURE liabilities, and local contributions have in fact been reduced - yes, the governments do have to contribute, it is an employment benefit. But in the worst of times there has been no real shortfall. They are not going to have to mortgage andy's humvee to pay my pension.

There have been big issues in other areas. NY's fund has been well managed. More importantly, the politicians have not been allowed to get their hands on the money, which is what happened in other places (McCall vs. Cuomo). Mario tried to get his hands on the money, he was a bigger fuck than andy. NOT ALLOWED.
Over a quarter of my very high property taxes go to fund municipal Cadillac pensions, the rest mostly goes to Medicaid. None of my ridiculous property taxes benefits me in any way.

35% of the state employee pension are paid by taxes, about 60% from investment returns and only 5% is paid by employee contribution. The teacher retirements system gouges even a higher percentage from taxpayers


Last time I checked my taxes it wasn't even close to 25%......it was closer to 5%........and Medicaid takes up 50% of my property taxes here..........I guess YMMV
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 5:33:16 PM EST
Whichever side of the fence you come down on, if and when the NYS pension fund can't meet it's obligations, the taxpayer will have to. When all the productive people leave NYS, as has been happening in the recent past, NYS won't be a be able to just keep raising taxes to make the payments. Those in charge will have to choose between paving roads, paying employees currently working, FSA benefits, etc or paying pensions to people who retired 20 years ago, and who haven't lived in NYS since they retired and can't vote them out.

Work 20 years, collect for 40, it doesn't take an accountant to figure out that that doesn't work.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 7:13:31 PM EST
Whichever side of the fence you come down on, if and when the NYS pension fund can't meet it's obligations, the taxpayer will have to. When all the productive people leave NYS, as has been happening in the recent past, NYS won't be a be able to just keep raising taxes to make the payments. Those in charge will have to choose between paving roads, paying employees currently working, FSA benefits, etc or paying pensions to people who retired 20 years ago, and who haven't lived in NYS since they retired and can't vote them out.

Work 20 years, collect for 40, it doesn't take an accountant to figure out that that doesn't work.


Last I looked the NYS pension fund was #1 in the country as far as being funded. The way I was told is that other states pension funds come no where close to NYS.

As far as paying pensions for 40 years. Life expectancy of LE is much lower then other occupations. I hear death notices in pre shift briefings all the time, guy retired 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. In the 15 years I have, only once have I heard of someone with more then 30 years in retirement.

As far as leaving the state once retired, I heard the state is going to come out with some new rules regarding retires moving out
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 7:26:59 PM EST
With Tier 5 and 6 there is no more 20 and out.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 7:34:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Castillo:
With Tier 5 and 6 there is no more 20 and out.
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Actually that's not true. It's better to do 20 and out as your pension percentage stops accruing at 20 years. no more 20+ years and the percentage goes up with 5 & 6. The idea was to have more turnover to get top pay guys out faster, and to keep new employees on the payroll at low wages.
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