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Posted: 4/26/2004 9:32:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2004 3:44:58 PM EST by M4_Aiming_at_U]
I think we all should pitch in to get a mailbox at one of these UPS stores righty accross the line in PA.

It would ponly be like $5 each person and that would cover 3 months.

Since I am in that area every fri,sat and sunday I could pick up any packages you guys had shipped there every week! I am always driving throughout the state so I could drop them off, or you can pick them up where I live, since I live smack dab in the middle of the state its convenient.

We could load up on mags very very easliey and it would be totally legal, what do tyou guys say?

Let me know what you think!!!

Edited to add:
This isn’t a PO Box, it’s a real street address. The guy at the UPS store signs for any packages. Calls you when they arrive and keeps them in a safe place till you pick them up.


Link Posted: 4/26/2004 11:42:22 AM EST
sounds good to me!
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 12:06:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2004 12:07:03 PM EST by M4_Aiming_at_U]

Originally Posted By howlie:
sounds good to me!



Cool,

What part of MD you live in again? Bel Air?
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 12:29:12 PM EST
Can you get a street address for the mailbox? I think a lot of vendors won't ship to P.O. boxes. And what are you thinking about payment? We pay our vendor of choice directly, have them ship it to the adrees, and you kindly handle the pick up? Or we pay you, and you order from a vendor you know to be reputable?

I still don't have a rifle, so this is somewhat academic to me right now, but it is an interesting idea.
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 1:49:01 PM EST
Why go to all the hassel?
Just come down to Virginia and buy them here, no ID problems or Nazi check points and just carry them back home in a bag.
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 3:40:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
Why go to all the hassel?
Just come down to Virginia and buy them here, no ID problems or Nazi check points and just carry them back home in a bag.



Well, not everyone wants to drive to VA.

Also, the wide selection of mags isn’t available at one or two VA stores.

This would be easier because the members could order any mag or drum they want fro, anywhere getting the best deals they see.
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 3:44:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By zrxc77:
Can you get a street address for the mailbox? I think a lot of vendors won't ship to P.O. boxes.



That’s the best thing. This isn’t a PO Box, it’s a real street address. The guy at the UPS store signs for any packages. Calls you when they arrive and keeps them in a safe place till you pick them up.



And what are you thinking about payment? We pay our vendor of choice directly, have them ship it to the address, and you kindly handle the pick up?



That’s it.




I still don't have a rifle, so this is somewhat academic to me right now, but it is an interesting idea.



Nothing more fun than buying accessories and mags before hand. The day you get your rifle is the day you can take out and shoot it since you have all you need ahead of time.
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 4:30:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By howlie:
sounds good to me!



Cool,

What part of MD you live in again? Bel Air?



Damn, you have a good memory. Correct again.
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 4:42:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2004 4:45:48 PM EST by philsAR]

Originally Posted By howlie:

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By howlie:
sounds good to me!



Cool,

What part of MD you live in again? Bel Air?



Damn, you have a good memory. Correct again.



.....and your from Montana....and you have a really cool O/U shotgun.....and you picked JC's ear protectors one day at the range....did I ever thank you for that. BTW we need to have another range day.

I guess I'll do the mailbox thing...why not? After all it's legal.
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 7:52:52 AM EST
I think this was brought up before and someone pointed out that it was illegal because of the fact that you're shipping to phony address and that you still reside in MD. I'd thought of doing this myself because I live 5 min from Shrewsbury and there's a UPS store right next to the Wal-Mart(the same place you're talking about M4).



If we can do this LEGEALLY I'd be in for sure!! Let's find out.
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 9:11:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By BBQMAN:
I think this was brought up before and someone pointed out that it was illegal because of the fact that you're shipping to phony address and that you still reside in MD. I'd thought of doing this myself because I live 5 min from Shrewsbury and there's a UPS store right next to the Wal-Mart(the same place you're talking about M4).



If we can do this LEGEALLY I'd be in for sure!! Let's find out.



How is it a phony address?
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 10:01:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/27/2004 10:09:17 AM EST by zrxc77]

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

How is it a phony address?


I think he means "phony" in the sense that it is not your legal place of residence.

I've been doing some research on the legality of this as well, and the way I read the law (as a novice and a non-lawyer - so it wouldn't surprise me if I am wrong), it isn't legal for Maryland residents to acquire large capacity magazines (greater than 20 rounds) under any circumstances.

Maryland code § 4-305. Detachable magazines - Prohibited reads:


(a) Scope of section.- This section does not apply to a .22 caliber rifle with a tubular magazine.

(b) Prohibited.- A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 20 rounds of ammunition for a firearm.

[An. Code 1957, art. 27, § 36H-5(b); 2002, ch. 26, § 2.]



(emphasis mine)

You aren't prohibited from possessing "large" capacity magazines, but you are prohibited from acquiring them. In other words, if you already owned one or more larger capacity magazines at the time the law went into effect, you are allowed to keep them. But you can't sell them, give them away, purchase them, receive them as gifts or participate in a transfer of them in any way. I don't know where the burden of proof lies if you are found to be in "suspicious" possession of "large" capacity magazines (i.e. do you have to prove you had them when the law went into effect or does the state have to prove you acquired them after the law went into effect - hopefully the latter), but the statute seems pretty clear to me that what you are proposing is illegal.

I'm not trying to be a spoiler, but I don't want to see people putting themselves in jeopardy because they misunderstand the statutes.

I will be happy to be proven wrong, but in the meantime I will have to politely decline your well-meaning offer.

(edit for formatting)
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 10:06:58 AM EST

Prohibited.- A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 20 rounds of ammunition for a firearm.



Funny thing is that is a MD law and that only applies in Maryland. Once you are out of state you must follow that state's law. If PA or VA say its legeal to purchase and/or receive a magazine with a capacity of 30 rounds and you happen to be within that state its perfectly legal.

BTW if you call the state police - many of them will tell you to drive to PA to buy your 30 rounders legally. About once a year someone calls the police, gets this news and posts it as the 'latest and greatest' (ahh wellm we were all newbies once).
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 10:12:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/27/2004 10:26:29 AM EST by zrxc77]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Funny thing is that is a MD law and that only applies in Maryland. Once you are out of state you must follow that state's law. If PA or VA say its legeal to purchase and/or receive a magazine with a capacity of 30 rounds and you happen to be within that state its perfectly legal.


But what M4_Aiming_at_U is proposing to do is transfer those magazines within Maryland:


Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

I am always driving throughout the state so I could drop them off, or you can pick them up where I live, since I live smack dab in the middle of the state its convenient.


(edit for formatting)
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 11:18:43 AM EST
zrxc77,

You have made a very good point.

The law does say "tranfer", however, the question is....what is a legal (or illegal) transfer. I'm not a lawyer but I believe transfer has to mean transfer of ownership. It can't mean physical transfer...then it would be illegal for M4 to pick up a mag from his shooting bench and carry it over to your shooting bench and then hand it to you. Not logical. The fuzzy part is that M4 is not transferring ownership. M4 will never own the mags. M4 is not really tranferring he is delivering just like UPS or USPS. IMHO the transfer of ownership takes place when the item is purchased. Transfer of ownership will take place outside of MD. This is legal.

We may need legal council on this one.
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 11:51:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/27/2004 11:57:07 AM EST by M4_Aiming_at_U]
I appreciate your effort in trying to help us figure out a good way of going about this.

If you look at the intercommerce laws of the United States. It say somewhere that when you make payment to a company in another state you physically own that merchandise as your property in that state. UPS, Fed-Ex and USPS is merely a currier of your new property that was bought in that state.
Maryland law does not say buying mags over 20 rounds in other sates and bringing them back in MD is an illegal action.


I will also stress that I am not a lawyer either. But I am however a Criminal Justice major and have a good idea of how laws (or lack of laws) work.

I am willing to go ahead with getting a mail box there in PA for my mags that were obtained in other states.
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 12:49:59 PM EST
.....and I am willing to pitch in and help pay for the mailbox and buy mags and have them shipped there.....
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 1:14:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:
If you look at the intercommerce laws of the United States. It say somewhere that when you make payment to a company in another state you physically own that merchandise as your property in that state. UPS, Fed-Ex and USPS is merely a currier of your new property that was bought in that state.



Not true. There are 2 types of shipping. I forget what they're called but Fight 4 Your Rights pointed out that one type is where you take posession as soon as you receive the item and the other is where its legeally yours as soon as its shipped.

Either way I'm in since I live right down the street.

Have to see if Gunman0 in interested since he lives nearby as well.
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 1:18:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By BBQMAN:

Have to see if Gunman0 in interested since he lives nearby as well.




Yeah where the hell has he been lately?

He met a girl and fell in love or something? Not many things can keep a guy’s mind a way from guns.
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 2:06:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By BBQMAN:

Have to see if Gunman0 in interested since he lives nearby as well.




Yeah where the hell has he been lately?

He met a girl and fell in love or something? Not many things can keep a guy’s mind a way from guns.



No, I just emailed him today. He's going out of town till next week. He's in realestate so that keeps him pretty busy.


So, how much does one of those mailboxes cost to get?
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 2:11:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By BBQMAN:

So, how much does one of those mailboxes cost to get?



I will find out tomorrow. They closed at 7pm so I just missed them. (717)235-9446 is the # incase you guys want info for yourselves.

Sometimes you can get a 3-month contract for only $30, that’s 50% off the regular price.

Hopefully we can get that!
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 6:21:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By philsAR:
zrxc77,

You have made a very good point.

The law does say "tranfer", however, the question is....what is a legal (or illegal) transfer. I'm not a lawyer but I believe transfer has to mean transfer of ownership. It can't mean physical transfer..



OK I sww ehat ZRXC77 was getting at.. And yes he has a VERY good point.

IIRC it does mean 'Physical Transfer' - at least it can be interpreted to mean as much. John J (they guy that sent out all the great MD-AWB info) once walked up to a liberal delagate and handed him a USGI 30 rounder. John then informed him he was now a criminal for receiving the magazine. IIRC he did it to point out the stupidity of the law. The delage got all pi$$ed off, said some choice words and handed the magazine back.

Its certainly is a grey area. To be clear the laws should have said 'Transfer of Ownership' as it doesn't they can go after you if you 'loan' a USGI 30 to a person, or try to include them with the sale of a firearm. If the A.G. wanted to bust your balls he could make a case - best case is you would win at a cost of $10K or more in lawyers fees.

Something to consider.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 2:46:16 PM EST
OK.....I say it's a stupid law.....ignore the law and do what ever the hell you want.

just kidding.

OHMAGOSH did I say that out loud?
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 3:12:19 PM EST
M4_Aiming_at _U

IM sent


BRONZ
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 3:16:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By BRONZ:
M4_Aiming_at _U

IM sent



Thanks,

Back @ you!
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 10:57:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/29/2004 11:01:26 AM EST by fight4yourrights]
Guys!


Ship them to my house in York.

I'm only 20 miles over the line, and I get down to Maryland all the time. It would be legal for me to return your property to you.
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 11:00:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By BBQMAN:


Not true. There are 2 types of shipping. I forget what they're called but Fight 4 Your Rights pointed out that one type is where you take posession as soon as you receive the item and the other is where its legeally yours as soon as its shipped..



FOB Dock

FOB Destination


FOB = Freight on Board

Dock is the company's location

Destination is your location

Typically, if you pay the freight, it's FOB Dock - you own it as it leaves the company.

It makes a BIG difference in shipping damage claims.
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 1:03:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
Why go to all the hassel?
Just come down to Virginia and buy them here, no ID problems or Nazi check points and just carry them back home in a bag.



Well, not everyone wants to drive to VA.

Also, the wide selection of mags isn’t available at one or two VA stores.

This would be easier because the members could order any mag or drum they want fro, anywhere getting the best deals they see.



Understandable and true, but if a person was to come down to one of our numerous gun shows this would solve the problem of choice of quantity and quality.

What you are attempting to recruit people to do is called conspiracy to commit, therefore committing a crime in Maryland.

But if a person were to travel to Virginia or Pennsylvania and purchase high capacity mags and return home with them, they have not committed a crime in the state of purchase.

If a person from Maryland was to travel to another state and purchase anything that was illegal in Maryland but yet legal in the state of purchase, they cannot be held for crimes in Virginia unless said person is committing the crime in Maryland.

Maryland cannot force another state to uphold Fascist laws that is not upheld in the Commonwealth of Virginia, or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 4:42:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
Why go to all the hassel?
Just come down to Virginia and buy them here, no ID problems or Nazi check points and just carry them back home in a bag.



Well, not everyone wants to drive to VA.

Also, the wide selection of mags isn’t available at one or two VA stores.

This would be easier because the members could order any mag or drum they want fro, anywhere getting the best deals they see.




Understandable and true, but if a person was to come down to one of our numerous gun shows this would solve the problem of choice of quantity and quality.

What you are attempting to recruit people to do is called conspiracy to commit, therefore committing a crime in Maryland.

But if a person were to travel to Virginia or Pennsylvania and purchase high capacity mags and return home with them, they have not committed a crime in the state of purchase.

If a person from Maryland was to travel to another state and purchase anything that was illegal in Maryland but yet legal in the state of purchase, they cannot be held for crimes in Virginia unless said person is committing the crime in Maryland.

Maryland cannot force another state to uphold Fascist laws that is not upheld in the Commonwealth of Virginia, or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.




Too bad I can't make the Harrisburg show this weekend.
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 11:16:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
Why go to all the hassel?
Just come down to Virginia and buy them here, no ID problems or Nazi check points and just carry them back home in a bag.



Well, not everyone wants to drive to VA.

Also, the wide selection of mags isn’t available at one or two VA stores.

This would be easier because the members could order any mag or drum they want fro, anywhere getting the best deals they see.



Understandable and true, but if a person was to come down to one of our numerous gun shows this would solve the problem of choice of quantity and quality.

What you are attempting to recruit people to do is called conspiracy to commit, therefore committing a crime in Maryland.

But if a person were to travel to Virginia or Pennsylvania and purchase high capacity mags and return home with them, they have not committed a crime in the state of purchase.

If a person from Maryland was to travel to another state and purchase anything that was illegal in Maryland but yet legal in the state of purchase, they cannot be held for crimes in Virginia unless said person is committing the crime in Maryland.

Maryland cannot force another state to uphold Fascist laws that is not upheld in the Commonwealth of Virginia, or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.



I beg to differ.

Your statement would be try, only if it were NOT legal to import mags into MD that you bought legally in another state.

Therefor there is no conspiracy since there is no crime.

If it were illegal to bring out of state mags into MD for your ownership only, then there would be a crime.

But as far as the current MD law regarding mags, that's just not so.
Link Posted: 4/30/2004 2:33:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
Why go to all the hassel?
Just come down to Virginia and buy them here, no ID problems or Nazi check points and just carry them back home in a bag.



Well, not everyone wants to drive to VA.

Also, the wide selection of mags isn’t available at one or two VA stores.

This would be easier because the members could order any mag or drum they want fro, anywhere getting the best deals they see.



Understandable and true, but if a person was to come down to one of our numerous gun shows this would solve the problem of choice of quantity and quality.

What you are attempting to recruit people to do is called conspiracy to commit, therefore committing a crime in Maryland.

But if a person were to travel to Virginia or Pennsylvania and purchase high capacity mags and return home with them, they have not committed a crime in the state of purchase.

If a person from Maryland was to travel to another state and purchase anything that was illegal in Maryland but yet legal in the state of purchase, they cannot be held for crimes in Virginia unless said person is committing the crime in Maryland.

Maryland cannot force another state to uphold Fascist laws that is not upheld in the Commonwealth of Virginia, or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.



I beg to differ.

Your statement would be try, only if it were NOT legal to import mags into MD that you bought legally in another state.

Therefor there is no conspiracy since there is no crime.

If it were illegal to bring out of state mags into MD for your ownership only, then there would be a crime.

But as far as the current MD law regarding mags, that's just not so.



Yeah but this is kinda what I was saying before. The fact is that you're "residence" is IN Md. wether or not you're using an address outside MD is irrelavent, you still live in Md and are using a "false" address to subvert a law in the state you live in. Its that same as buying it living in Md and having it shipped to a buddy in PA. That's supposedly a no no, too.
Link Posted: 4/30/2004 8:27:49 AM EST
I see what your saying but........................

If its legal to buy them outside MD from a person, shop or off the street so to speak.
Then having a mailbox for getting other mail that is NOT use solely for the purpose of obtaining mags outside MD anymore different?

I know it is in our brains as we process logic. But if the law isn't specific, that legally there is no difference.

Lets say the MD law said "MD residents cannot buy SUV's in MD" That means a SUV buyer could go outside, drive their SUV's' dealers to the MD/PA line and buy their SUV in PA and drive it home. Now, because you helped the sale by driving the dealer out of state to get your goods, you still have not made it anymore illegal.

Just the way I am interpreting the law is that no matter how you get them outside of MD, it doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 4/30/2004 5:12:16 PM EST
My Mail Boxes Etc (some converted to UPS stores) charges an additional $5 per month for every extra name on the box other than the owner. They wouldn't give me a package with my girlfriend's name on it until she was on the paperwork and the extra fee was paid. Just a thought....
Link Posted: 5/2/2004 6:02:08 PM EST
Guys, just use my house.
Link Posted: 5/2/2004 9:10:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Guys, just use my house.



Ok, I cant argue with a great offer from a great guy.

I think you and the UPS guys are going to get to know each other very well...................


hehe
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:09:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Guys, just use my house.



Ok, I cant argue with a great offer from a great guy.

I think you and the UPS guys are going to get to know each other very well...................


hehe



Yes, we just unloaded about 800 lbs of food from his truck.



Link Posted: 5/7/2004 9:18:01 PM EST
allright, I'll bite....do you order your food someplace and UPS delivers it? Anything would have to be better than going shopping.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 10:02:56 PM EST
Yeah..
F4YR does have one bad ass SHTF kit

Here is to you!
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