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Posted: 6/17/2009 6:01:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 10:22:20 AM EST by Woodman_in_MO]
Saw this on another board and couldn't help thinking of what folks in this forum would say...

Edit - Sorry looks like they pulled the video. Basically is was a guy standing between the targets taking pictures while a group of people took pistol practice from maybe 15 or 20 feet away.

I think the dude is nuts...

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:36:06 AM EST
Your link fails.......

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:21:50 AM EST
Wow, I've met hamsters smarter than that guy.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:22:01 AM EST
What a tool
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:39:32 AM EST
Safety is everyone’s responsibility; this includes The Range officer/Instructor, Students, the camera man shooting the video and the idiot down range.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 9:42:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 9:42:52 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]
Cmon you guys, what could possibly go wrong?

EDIT: Seriously, what's wrong with a tripod and a remote shutter switch? Its not that expensive to set up.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 10:20:09 AM EST
Ah...they pulled the video...I wonder why....
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 12:41:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 3:32:36 PM EST by AFSOC]
1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Never point the weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target, and what's beyond it.

Was it dangerous for Jay to be in front of the firing line? Sure, did he get plugged? NO! Why? because of the 4 rules above. Notice there is not a rule concerning being in front of the firing line. That "Rule" the 180 rule exists to prevent lawsuits not for safety. If you are taking part in a 3 gun match and you inadvertantly cover the RO with your muzzle but do not break "180" it is NOT the shooters fault it is the ROs fault... HE was where HE should not have been.

Gunfighting is a dangerous business, I don't condone this action and of course having survived the two way range on more than one occasion I can say it makes for a very different world thereafter... For the record, I have been on ranges shooting just like those folks were, I never shot the fucking instructor, if you don't believe that you are safe enough to keep from shooting the instructor in that situation you probably ought not to carry a weapon.

Jay was their instructor, He had enough confidence in his students to trust that he was safe in that position.
A quote from an instructor that was there....

Originally posted by Tim Mulverhill:
Do you want the first time you send a round into a target(threat) in close proximity to another person to be in a training class/controlled environment or at the 7-11 when the badguy has his arm around your wife's neck? It can be an extremely steep learning curve for those who choose the latter.

If you train to use your gun in the 360 degree range we call the world, you better be prepared to shoot around the good guys. If not, sell your gun on Gunbroker and carry a can of pepper spray.

I have complete faith in the students we have instructed to stand forward of their muzzles, and the responsibility as their instructor to have them leave our range fully confident to perform what we have taught them off of the range in a dynamic environment full of moving/screaming 'no-shoots'.

I now find it difficult to operate at facilities slavishly committed to the 180 and feel that I am somehow being treated like an incompetent or child, and that the curriculum is lacking or incomplete.

The 180 is another range rule, not a rule of safe gunhandling. Not pointing your gun at something you are not willing to destroy is an example of safe gunhandling, and if your instructor is 3 feet to the side of your target, engage your target without pointing it at him. If you are incapable of performing this simple task, then you shouldn't be handling guns on any range.

Tim's Cell:
Tim's E-Mail:

Also from the shooter.... (closest shooter to Jay)

My first day of FP was my third day ever on a firing range, and my second day ever of focusing on the use of a pistol.

By the time Jay had gotten tired of taking pictures of the ladies in the class and had worked his way down to take pictures of me, I was tired, shaken up, and my hands were aching, but I was putting bullets where they needed to go. It just so happened, however, that that particular drill involved starting to shoot from your back, then moving to a sitting, then kneeling, then standing position, while shooting at each of those stages. I knew that I probably wasn't going to hit Jay, but I also knew that sometimes my right knee doesn't cooperate with me, that I had been called out once for having a careless finger on the trigger between drills, and that I had a tendency to jump a little bit when the person next to me fired their weapon. All in all, I wasn't comfortable shooting with Jay there for that particular drill.

So I didn't fire my weapon.

It was as easy as that. I knew that I didn't have to pull the trigger in that instance, so I did not. If I had to do it again, I would almost certainly complete the drill, as I feel more comfortable with pistols now than I did that day (having had a lot of things in my head go "click" on Day 2 of the class). And yes, I know that in some respects I did myself a disservice by not having that kind of real-world "there's a guy right there next to my target!" training, but I had to respect the fact that the freedoms and latitude given to me by the Tactical Response instructors are constrained first and most importantly by my own judgment. The gun was in my hands and nobody else's.

More than you trust Jay's judgment, you have to trust the judgment of the shooter. And if you trust them enough to not kill you in the first place, it shouldn't really matter where anybody stands.

Lastly edited to add a parting shot... also pulled from another forum...
On a daily basis we hurtle toward and by each other in 1000lbs + machines at incredible speeds. Usually with nothing more than trust in a perfect strangers training, a yellow line, and mere inches separating us from inevitable doom...

Portuguese Counter Terror unit

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:21:03 PM EST
I'm with AFSOC on this one. I think most people are used to seeing people training to become good IDPA shooters. Therefore seeing something like what I imagine the video showed, people freak. Gun fighting is completely different.

I'm not bashing IDPA or the other games. There is nothing wrong with IDPA, or any other alphabet soup games. Don't call that gun fighting though. Its a freaking game. (and a fun one at that) Could it help? Maybe, but not much.
Link Posted: 6/18/2009 5:16:10 AM EST
So they were training to shoot real world scenarios where you are confronted by a bad guy while some guy next to him crouches down to take pictures?

I well, I can accept their argument after the fact, seems as good as any....
Link Posted: 6/18/2009 5:23:55 AM EST
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