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Posted: 10/3/2005 7:30:29 PM EDT
www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28255&st=0

Seems they have alienated and lost some shooters for any future 3-gun matches they might hold.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:04:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 7:08:38 PM EDT by mcgrubbs]
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:13:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 8:23:26 PM EDT by mojo]
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:19:06 PM EDT
Thats odd, that group(Cav Arms) runs a tight ship normally.

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:20:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:24:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 8:14:52 AM EDT by SC-Texas]
Edited from: I think I would have told them to piss off.

To: silly thing to put expensive stuff on the dummy. Even sillier to use what in a real situation would be an injured person as a shooting rest.

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 2:51:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mojo:

Ridiculous 'penalty'...$100.00 for the pant? I guess the owner makes $90.00 profit...



Actually it was a new nomex flightsuit.

I'll make some more comments when I'm more coherent and when I think people will attempt to think more clearly.


mm
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:20:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
I think I would have told them to piss off.



Hey SC.
it is my understanding that if you damage property and it must be replaced you are actually buying the property.
say you take a jacket to the dry cleaners and they ruin it then you can recover damages equal to the value of the jacket but that when you recover the damages the jacket is given to the dry cleaners. is this true and if so does this guy due an almost new flight suit?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:04:10 AM EDT
Eat shit and die
FOAD
Hell no
fuck off
no way
kiss my ass

Just a few of the responses I might say just off the top of my head.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:23:15 AM EDT
Who was running the match?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:32:25 AM EDT
I guess noone here will take responsibility for their actions anymore. The match rules stated, each stage description, and the shooters' brief all mentioned that if you damaged the props, you'd buy them.

The flightsuit was damaged when it was used as a rest. The comp burned about a 4" square hole in the suit. The prop was nowhere near any of the targets, yet another shooter in a different squad saw fit to shoot it.

Benny did not intentionally damage the prop, he knew he'd have to pay for the damages. I think what surprised him was the cost. Knowing Benny, he'll probably calm down by the end of the day and let it go. Benny knew he was responsible and made no attempt to avoid paying Shawn, most of us thought the suit was around $25-$30, the receipt for $100 surprised me when Shawn showed it to me.

mm
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:45:10 AM EDT
why put a $100 suit on prop?

why not a $20 pair of dickie coveralls
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:00:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:07:18 AM EDT
Who sponsored this match and where was it?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:21:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Who sponsored this match and where was it?



This was sponsored by Cav Arms and took place at Tiger Valley in Waco Texas.


Here is the prop in questions:


apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TV3G-2005/?medium=A100_0902_img.jpg
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:32:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:51:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 6:51:47 AM EDT by Timanator]
I guess none since your not in that picture.

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:26:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:28:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:30:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:37:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:55:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

If the match rules made it clear, and everyone was briefed about paying for damages, then Shawn had every right to ask for restitution.



Only if it was made clear in advance.

I grow tired of signing up for something in advance, then after I make a hotel reservation travel 200+ miles, only to find out there are a whole news set of rules I was not told (even though I asked), waivers to be signed, events cancelled, etc.

That is why I prefer the Hun Farm.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:08:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

If the match rules made it clear, and everyone was briefed about paying for damages, then Shawn had every right to ask for restitution.

Benny might be a little hot under the collar about it, but... He did agree to pay the damages, and admitted his culpability in the damage.

Posting a tirade about it on the Web is not the way to handle the issue.

TRG



I think Benny was probably more upset at the cost and was just venting in a forum he's much more familiar with.

mm
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:09:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 8:10:14 AM EDT by Zmeja]
I was there when it happened.

The stage involved shooting targets from a helicopter, then safeing the rifle, jumping out the helo, running downrange engaging close targets and steel with a pistol, then holstering the pistol, picking up the dummy (dressed in a combat vehicle crewman's nomex one-piece suit, boots, helmet, and vest) attached to a Kifaru EMR with seat, run back to the helo, place the dummy inside, and then take the rifle and again, from inside the helo, reengage the far steel.

Most everyone I saw shot prone from inside the helo (since the steel was in the long bay, about 100-140 yds away) and used the dummy as a rest. A few of us didn't because the dummy takes up a lot of space, and shot from the kneeling.

We were warned by the RO at the beginning of the stage: "Do NOT shoot the props. Shoot the prop and you will pay for it." I don't have the rules in front of me, but shooting a prop results in a STAGE DQ. Because it wasn't called a stage DQ for Benny right off the bat, he was asked to pay for the suit.

The thing is, the CVC suit was borrowed from an active duty soldier. CVC suits aren't in the PX MCSS where you can buy them, instead, they are organizationally issued items like ballistic helmets and vests. The hole created by the comp is actually two, torn at right angles, measuring about the size of a man's fist. CVC suits aren't usually sold in surplus stores either, so they're a little hard to get a hold of.

Cavalry Arms was very discreet in handling the issue. Benny was the overall winner of the match, but a stage DQ would have resulted in him losing to someone else. Regardless, he could have gotten 2nd or 4th or some other place AND had to pay for the prop. He got the easy way out, and decided to be an ass and post it in public. He gets no sympathy from me, and I'm sure that Shawn and the other Cav Arms guys will be pretty pissed when they get back to Arizona.

Besides, people know that shooting and destroying range props or even steel (for the guys who damage steel by shooting AP or the wrong round type at them) will result in them paying for the damages. It's pretty childish for him not to own up to it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:10:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 8:16:48 AM EDT by Garryowen]
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:11:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 8:56:44 AM EDT by De_Professor]
$100 is for a patch or a replacement suit.


Sounds like a good margin of profit in my opinion if it's for a patch. If it's for a new suit, the old suit should be provided to the shooter paying the fine.

How was $100 figured. I would have been pissed.




Intentional damage is one thing, unintentional in another.

Shooter often determine many different ways to shoot a stage....props get shot, powder burned, etc. unintentionally.....this is the price of running a match....this is what match fees should cover.


Intentional damage should be fined -- unintentional is typically poor stage design....thus at least partial liability for the damage is the designers. Is there something that I'm missing?



Note: See next post - garyowen answered my questions
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:16:44 AM EDT
I edited my knee jerk opinion.

That said, for $100.00, benny should get the damaged suit & be shown a receipt from Clothing Sales or a statement of charges from supply sahowing that the soldier actually had to pay for it and what was charged.

Fair is Fair.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:18:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 8:21:48 AM EDT by De_Professor]
Garryowen,

I asked: Is there something that I'm missing?

Thanks for the response. You answered the questions that I posed.

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:48:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By De_Professor:
$100 is for a patch or a replacement suit.


Sounds like a good margin of profit in my opinion if it's for a patch. If it's for a new suit, the old suit should be provided to the shooter paying the fine.

How was $100 figured. I would have been pissed.




Nomex/other fire retardant CVC and flight suits are not allowed to be repaired by patching, IAW Army regs...at least the regs stated that in 92. Split seams can be repaired by the life support personel, using nomex or another approved thread. Oil or greased stained and heavily soiled nomex uniforms were to be turned in for exchange at either the unit supply or life support. I used to go through about 8 flight suits a year and the cost back in 85-92 was $98 for a medium/regular.


SC, he did get a receipt. The type of uniform is not available at military clothing sales. He may be able to get it DX'd if it's decided the damage is normal wear and tear and not neglect, abuse, misuse.


mm
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:57:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By mm38:
I guess noone here will take responsibility for their actions anymore. The match rules stated, each stage description, and the shooters' brief all mentioned that if you damaged the props, you'd buy them.

The flightsuit was damaged when it was used as a rest. The comp burned about a 4" square hole in the suit. The prop was nowhere near any of the targets, yet another shooter in a different squad saw fit to shoot it.

Benny did not intentionally damage the prop, he knew he'd have to pay for the damages. I think what surprised him was the cost. Knowing Benny, he'll probably calm down by the end of the day and let it go. Benny knew he was responsible and made no attempt to avoid paying Shawn, most of us thought the suit was around $25-$30, the receipt for $100 surprised me when Shawn showed it to me.

mm



If the match rules made it clear, and everyone was briefed about paying for damages, then Shawn had every right to ask for restitution.

Benny might be a little hot under the collar about it, but... He did agree to pay the damages, and admitted his culpability in the damage.

Posting a tirade about it on the Web is not the way to handle the issue.

TRG



I agree with what you're saying, TRG, but Benny himself in his original post on the BE thread stated he and his fellow shooters will not be returning to the match because of this.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:34:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:53:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By De_Professor:


Intentional damage is one thing, unintentional in another.

Shooter often determine many different ways to shoot a stage....props get shot, powder burned, etc. unintentionally.....this is the price of running a match....this is what match fees should cover.


Intentional damage should be fined -- unintentional is typically poor stage design....thus at least partial liability for the damage is the designers. Is there something that I'm missing?





This doesnt make any sense at all. Why would you think Cav Arms would be responsible for the damage whether it's intentional or unintentional?(Espeicaly when it is in the rules) Most car wrecks are unintentional, but the one at faultstill has to pay for the damage regardless right?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 10:31:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 11:04:22 AM EDT by ProfessorEvil]
Let's see...

Warned in advance.

Given the damaged set, along with the request for payment.

Pays for it on site

Wins the match.

Complains later online.

I'm just failing to see where Cav fucked that one up.


Shawn, you're a cheap-ass dick. But you asked for that.

Current thread at BE: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28274
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:37:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 11:41:18 AM EDT by Gloftoe]
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:40:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 11:41:53 AM EDT by Gloftoe]
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:57:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 11:58:32 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:10:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:02:19 PM EDT
It seems to me that at least half of the people responding to this thread were not even there, so who really gives a crap as to what they think. I was there. I know what happened. Hell I saw it happen. The rules clearly stated you damage a prop, you buy it. Benny damaged it, Benny bought it. If he wanted to bitch about it, he should have done so then instead of waiting until he got home and doing it online. If the 'GOLFCART CREW from Corpus doesn't show up next year then oh well, their loss.

I would like to personally thank Shawn and the whole CAV ARMS team for putting on the match. It was excellent, and all your hard work is appreciated. The stages were great, the prize table was awsome, and you can count on me to be there next year.

Chad Guinther
TROOPER CLASS
SQUAD 1
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:29:32 PM EDT
Nice shooting with you Chad.

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:56:44 PM EDT
I've got to start introducing myself at these things. I never know who people are until it's over.

Here is a picture of my loot. This was about average for trooper class folks.



Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:11:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 7:29:37 PM EDT by mm38]

Originally Posted By Zmeja:
I've got to start introducing myself at these things. I never know who people are until it's over.

Here is a picture of my loot. This was about average for trooper class folks.

images12.fotki.com/v237/photos/2/23676/170464/100_0427-vi.jpg




it was nice seeing Chad and Zak again. Didn;t do much more than say hi to Zak though.

Zmeja...were you the one that was able to show up Sat morning? I was in squad 2.

I got a $250 gift certificate from Ameetec, a mag, some flooplates, a thing which I'm rwally not too sure what it is....I think it's still yet another 1911 thing, a Spec Ops Battle Belt, and another thingy that I have no clue as to what it is.



mm
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:08:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:13:34 PM EDT
I'm really just jealous. I wanted to go, but couldn't make it.

Seems I got fired from a huge case last year when I told the client he was fucked.

Then, mid september, 45 days before trial, my firm and myself were re-hired and we went to mediation on the weekend the match happened. Seems we are about 6 mill apart so I should have gone to the match and told the other side to go pound sand.

I have to say that CAV ARMS and shawn do make one hell of an effort to drive to Texas for these events and when I met these guys last year at Octoberblast they where a hell of a lot of fun.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:09:22 PM EDT
I got some guys' real names at the match, but didn't correlate these to AR15.com handles... feel free to enlighten us!!

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:56:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 7:57:52 AM EDT by Zmeja]
Yep, I was the fat guy in Truspec ACUs. It's actually kinda fun to shoot it all in one day.

I saw Zak, but didn't introduce myself. I'm shy. Pete (DVD Tracker) I knew from last year.

The LaRue certificate was for a mount or handguard of choice.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:04:17 AM EDT
Anyone want to sell their Larue Gift Certificate, please e-mail me.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:47:41 AM EDT
I just got off the phone with the fine folks from LARUE TACTICAL. I got a gift certificate in my goodie bag. Those guys are great. They said I could get any handguard or scope mount I wanted. So i picked my prize. An almost $250.00 handguard. They said it would be shipped in a day or 2. That wasn't even the most expensive thing I could have ordered and sold. It was just what I needed for my next build. Any way with the handguard, and all the stuff in my prize bag, I estimate the retail price of the prizes I won was about $500.00. Not bad considering I was damn near in last place.

It was good to see some familiar faces again, and to meet some new ones. I enjoyed shootong with everyone and hope to do so again.

Chad Guinther
Trooper Class
Squad 1
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:49:10 AM EDT
Ditto. The prize table kicked ass.

[ link to LARGER image ]

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:59:43 AM EDT
I also used the dummy for support, and even though I don't have a fraction of Benny's experience, I managed to not damage it.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:09:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 1:57:16 PM EDT
I've been shooting matches in one disclipline or another since I was 13.

"You damage it you pay for it" I always considered to be a universal rule. Heck, I even seen it listed under "shooter's etiquette" in gun rags.
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