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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:04:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Edited to remove my knee-jerk reaction.
I apologize to CavArms and anyone involved with the match. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:13:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Ridiculous 'penalty'...$100.00 for the pant? I guess the owner makes $90.00 profit... 
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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:19:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Thats odd, that group(Cav Arms) runs a tight ship normally.
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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:20:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Complete bullshit.
I would not have paid it. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:24:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Edited from: I think I would have told them to piss off.
To: silly thing to put expensive stuff on the dummy. Even sillier to use what in a real situation would be an injured person as a shooting rest. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 2:51:35 AM EDT
[#6]
Actually it was a new nomex flightsuit. I'll make some more comments when I'm more coherent and when I think people will attempt to think more clearly. mm |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 4:20:39 AM EDT
[#7]
Hey SC. it is my understanding that if you damage property and it must be replaced you are actually buying the property. say you take a jacket to the dry cleaners and they ruin it then you can recover damages equal to the value of the jacket but that when you recover the damages the jacket is given to the dry cleaners. is this true and if so does this guy due an almost new flight suit? |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 5:04:10 AM EDT
[#8]
Eat shit and die
FOAD Hell no fuck off no way kiss my ass Just a few of the responses I might say just off the top of my head. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 5:23:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Who was running the match?
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Posted: 10/4/2005 5:32:25 AM EDT
[#10]
I guess noone here will take responsibility for their actions anymore. The match rules stated, each stage description, and the shooters' brief all mentioned that if you damaged the props, you'd buy them.
The flightsuit was damaged when it was used as a rest. The comp burned about a 4" square hole in the suit. The prop was nowhere near any of the targets, yet another shooter in a different squad saw fit to shoot it. Benny did not intentionally damage the prop, he knew he'd have to pay for the damages. I think what surprised him was the cost. Knowing Benny, he'll probably calm down by the end of the day and let it go. Benny knew he was responsible and made no attempt to avoid paying Shawn, most of us thought the suit was around $25-$30, the receipt for $100 surprised me when Shawn showed it to me. mm |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 5:45:10 AM EDT
[#11]
why put a $100 suit on prop?
why not a $20 pair of dickie coveralls 
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Posted: 10/4/2005 6:00:37 AM EDT
[#12]
Well, if it was so, then the shooter was obligated to pay for the damage. Maybe, next time, cheaper material should be used, so it won't hurt both parties' pocketbook. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 6:07:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Who sponsored this match and where was it?
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Posted: 10/4/2005 6:21:29 AM EDT
[#14]
This was sponsored by Cav Arms and took place at Tiger Valley in Waco Texas. Here is the prop in questions: apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TV3G-2005/?medium=A100_0902_img.jpg |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 6:32:33 AM EDT
[#15]
Which one is the dummy? 
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Posted: 10/4/2005 6:51:32 AM EDT
[#16]
I guess none since your not in that picture.
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Posted: 10/4/2005 7:26:48 AM EDT
[#17]
If the match rules made it clear, and everyone was briefed about paying for damages, then Shawn had every right to ask for restitution. Benny might be a little hot under the collar about it, but... He did agree to pay the damages, and admitted his culpability in the damage. Posting a tirade about it on the Web is not the way to handle the issue. TRG |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 7:28:55 AM EDT
[#18]
I doubt it. Cooler heads will prevail. CavArms is good people. If the shooter agreed to not damage a prop, and to pay for it if damaged, then the shooter is the one that loks bad, not CavArms. IMHO. TRG |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 7:30:44 AM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 10/4/2005 7:37:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Your offer for services should be in the EE. TRG |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 7:55:17 AM EDT
[#21]
Only if it was made clear in advance. I grow tired of signing up for something in advance, then after I make a hotel reservation travel 200+ miles, only to find out there are a whole news set of rules I was not told (even though I asked), waivers to be signed, events cancelled, etc. That is why I prefer the Hun Farm. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:08:05 AM EDT
[#22]
I think Benny was probably more upset at the cost and was just venting in a forum he's much more familiar with. mm |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:09:28 AM EDT
[#23]
I was there when it happened.
The stage involved shooting targets from a helicopter, then safeing the rifle, jumping out the helo, running downrange engaging close targets and steel with a pistol, then holstering the pistol, picking up the dummy (dressed in a combat vehicle crewman's nomex one-piece suit, boots, helmet, and vest) attached to a Kifaru EMR with seat, run back to the helo, place the dummy inside, and then take the rifle and again, from inside the helo, reengage the far steel. Most everyone I saw shot prone from inside the helo (since the steel was in the long bay, about 100-140 yds away) and used the dummy as a rest. A few of us didn't because the dummy takes up a lot of space, and shot from the kneeling. We were warned by the RO at the beginning of the stage: "Do NOT shoot the props. Shoot the prop and you will pay for it." I don't have the rules in front of me, but shooting a prop results in a STAGE DQ. Because it wasn't called a stage DQ for Benny right off the bat, he was asked to pay for the suit. The thing is, the CVC suit was borrowed from an active duty soldier. CVC suits aren't in the PX MCSS where you can buy them, instead, they are organizationally issued items like ballistic helmets and vests. The hole created by the comp is actually two, torn at right angles, measuring about the size of a man's fist. CVC suits aren't usually sold in surplus stores either, so they're a little hard to get a hold of. Cavalry Arms was very discreet in handling the issue. Benny was the overall winner of the match, but a stage DQ would have resulted in him losing to someone else. Regardless, he could have gotten 2nd or 4th or some other place AND had to pay for the prop. He got the easy way out, and decided to be an ass and post it in public. He gets no sympathy from me, and I'm sure that Shawn and the other Cav Arms guys will be pretty pissed when they get back to Arizona. Besides, people know that shooting and destroying range props or even steel (for the guys who damage steel by shooting AP or the wrong round type at them) will result in them paying for the damages. It's pretty childish for him not to own up to it. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:10:19 AM EDT
[#24]
Wow, I’m glad to see some of you have already made up your minds about what happened. Of the 45 people who shot that stage, only one person blew holes in the brand new set of CVC coveralls. Everyone at the match was told that if you shoot a prop you will be charged for it. Everyone at the match was told specifically that if they use the dummy for a rest and shoot it or blow holes in it with their comps, that they would have to pay for it. No one was charged for any clay holders (we whacked it with a hammer and it was fine, if Mell was charged, I want to know by who so I can get his money back for him).
I didn’t think it was unreasonable to ask people to control their muzzles at this match and being that everyone except on man was able to do so, I don’t think I made a bad call. The only person who did this was the one man at the match who has the most experience shooting and should know better. When I asked him about damaging the dummy, he didn’t deny it, when I presented him with the damaged coveralls (as in they are his now) and a bill, he happily paid it. He didn’t say anything about it seeming steep or offer to instead replace the coveralls with a new set (which would have been fine) or maybe trade some gunsmithing for the coveralls…nothing, just his patented smile and $100 in cash. At the MGM match, you hole a steel target, you have to buy it (I know, I’ve seen it happen) and at the Mystery Mt. match (the largest 3-gun match in the world) if you shoot a prop, you get a stage DQ and depending on the damage, you may also have to pay for it. Last year people complained that the props seemed cheap, so I used a full set of real issue CVC (combat vehicle Crewman’s) gear fore the dummy. The Kevlar vest, CVC helmet, boots, goggles and gloves were mine. The Coveralls were barrowed from a friend who is still in the military and I told him I would replace them if they were damaged (these are very hard to tear and a washing would have made them like new again). I looked online and the only places I could find that sold them new (and could give me a receipt and I will NOT use Ebay as they are anti-gun) they run from $65.00 to $150.00 for a new set (depending on size, I need Med/Reg). I am so disgusted by this bullshit. My guys and me killed ourselves to make this match happen and if anyone thinks we made money off of this, they are dead wrong. I also like how this hits the net while we are still on the road trying to get home after tearing the range down and getting it cleaned up for the shoot you Texas folks are doing there this weekend (I’m at a truck stop on my lap-top, I got a cell call to let me know I was being dog-piled on-line). Please feel free to contact me directly to tell me I’m a cheap-ass and a dick if you would like.  Shawn M. Nealon CEO Cavalry Arms Corp 723 W. Commerce Suite A Gilbert, Arizona 85233 (480) 833-9685 [email protected] edited for clarity |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:11:43 AM EDT
[#25]
$100 is for a patch or a replacement suit.
Sounds like a good margin of profit in my opinion if it's for a patch. If it's for a new suit, the old suit should be provided to the shooter paying the fine. How was $100 figured. I would have been pissed.  Intentional damage is one thing, unintentional in another. Shooter often determine many different ways to shoot a stage....props get shot, powder burned, etc. unintentionally.....this is the price of running a match....this is what match fees should cover. Intentional damage should be fined -- unintentional is typically poor stage design....thus at least partial liability for the damage is the designers. Is there something that I'm missing? Note: See next post - garyowen answered my questions |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:16:44 AM EDT
[#26]
I edited my knee jerk opinion.
That said, for $100.00, benny should get the damaged suit & be shown a receipt from Clothing Sales or a statement of charges from supply sahowing that the soldier actually had to pay for it and what was charged. Fair is Fair. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:18:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Garryowen,
I asked: Is there something that I'm missing? Thanks for the response. You answered the questions that I posed. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:48:54 AM EDT
[#28]
Nomex/other fire retardant CVC and flight suits are not allowed to be repaired by patching, IAW Army regs...at least the regs stated that in 92. Split seams can be repaired by the life support personel, using nomex or another approved thread. Oil or greased stained and heavily soiled nomex uniforms were to be turned in for exchange at either the unit supply or life support. I used to go through about 8 flight suits a year and the cost back in 85-92 was $98 for a medium/regular. SC, he did get a receipt. The type of uniform is not available at military clothing sales. He may be able to get it DX'd if it's decided the damage is normal wear and tear and not neglect, abuse, misuse. mm |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:57:55 AM EDT
[#29]
I agree with what you're saying, TRG, but Benny himself in his original post on the BE thread stated he and his fellow shooters will not be returning to the match because of this. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 9:34:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Not the first time I have seen people get thier shorts in a bunch over things like this. If Benny had an issue, the manly thing to do would be to take it up with Shawn in person. Not trash the match, CavArms, etc. on the web. Trying to piss on Shawn's event and cry about how he and his buddies will not be back is just poor conduct. It makes Benny look childish and petty. Cav drove 1200 miles (?) to set up the event for shooters. After a year of planning and preparation, Benny certainly made the CavArms guys feel appreciated, didn't he? He was not overcharged, he was allowed to stay in the event, and from what Shawn posted the matter was handled politely and professionally. Benny F'ed up. He admitted it, and paid for the damage. Posting a childish rant is not the way to handle it. I am not sure what Benny's threat of not being back is supposed to accomplish? Punish CavArms for making him pay for his damages? Punish CavArms for hosting the event? What's the point of ranting about not being back, if not to harm CavArms? The shooters were warned, 44 other guys did not damage the dummy. The one guy that messed up someone else's property is now trying to get payback? TRG |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 9:53:46 AM EDT
[#31]
This doesnt make any sense at all. Why would you think Cav Arms would be responsible for the damage whether it's intentional or unintentional?(Espeicaly when it is in the rules) Most car wrecks are unintentional, but the one at faultstill has to pay for the damage regardless right? |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 10:31:43 AM EDT
[#32]
Let's see...
Warned in advance. Given the damaged set, along with the request for payment. Pays for it on site Wins the match. Complains later online. I'm just failing to see where Cav fucked that one up. Shawn, you're a cheap-ass dick. But you asked for that. Current thread at BE: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28274 |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 11:37:14 AM EDT
[#33]
Apparently it was laid out that if you damaged it, you bought it. If he didn't want to possibly pay for the suit he might damage, he shouldn't have shot the match.
Apparently it was laid out that if you damaged it, you bought it. Don't want to pay for something you damage? Don't shoot the match and risk it.
Apparently it was laid out that if you damaged it, you bought it. Don't want to pay for something you damage? Don't shoot the match and risk it.
Shawn posted that he presented the suit to the guy, as it was now his (you break it you buy it)
Apparently it was laid out that if you damaged it, you bought it. Don't want to pay for something you damage? Don't shoot the match and risk it.
While I wasn't there, I completely agree with you. Again, "You break it, You buy it."
Rule was, "You break it, You buy it." That rule was broken. And the damaged suit was presented to the shooter in question.
Well, if that's how they feel then that's just tough shit (IMO). He broke a rule, rectified the situation in the prescribed manner, and now bitches that it wasn't fair (or something) and is going to "take his toys and go home"? THAT'S mature of him.
TRG is spot on here. Just wanted to reiterate that.
Agreed. Especially on the "cheap-ass dick" comment.  |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 11:40:58 AM EDT
[#34]
And to Shawn (and the entire Cavalry Arms crew):
From what I've seen, y'all put on a KICK ASS match (as expected). Don't let one detractor and his buddies get you down. I'm sorry I didn't make the match this time, but I hope you don't let a little thing like this prevent y'all from doing it again next year. And to the detractors in THIS thread, WTF?! The Cavalry Arms guys DROVE (wow gas is expensive) all the way from AZ to Waco to put this match on. I worked the match last year, and they put a HELL of a lot of work into it then (as I'm sure they did this time too). Namecalling? "FOAD"? "Complete bullshit"? For something that was laid out in the rules? Grow the hell up. Everyone's so big on personal responsibility except for now? <--------Ashamed at this point. 
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Posted: 10/4/2005 11:57:34 AM EDT
[#35]
Thanks for the reinforcement. I think most of us gathered that after Garry came in and posted. But again, thanks for the follow up x's 4.  But you probably did that for the aggies here. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 12:10:08 PM EDT
[#36]
 TRG |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 3:02:19 PM EDT
[#37]
It seems to me that at least half of the people responding to this thread were not even there, so who really gives a crap as to what they think. I was there. I know what happened. Hell I saw it happen. The rules clearly stated you damage a prop, you buy it. Benny damaged it, Benny bought it. If he wanted to bitch about it, he should have done so then instead of waiting until he got home and doing it online. If the 'GOLFCART CREW from Corpus doesn't show up next year then oh well, their loss.
I would like to personally thank Shawn and the whole CAV ARMS team for putting on the match. It was excellent, and all your hard work is appreciated. The stages were great, the prize table was awsome, and you can count on me to be there next year. Chad Guinther TROOPER CLASS SQUAD 1 |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 3:29:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Nice shooting with you Chad.
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Posted: 10/4/2005 6:56:44 PM EDT
[#39]
I've got to start introducing myself at these things. I never know who people are until it's over.
Here is a picture of my loot. This was about average for trooper class folks.  |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 7:11:31 PM EDT
[#40]
it was nice seeing Chad and Zak again. Didn;t do much more than say hi to Zak though. Zmeja...were you the one that was able to show up Sat morning? I was in squad 2. I got a $250 gift certificate from Ameetec, a mag, some flooplates, a thing which I'm rwally not too sure what it is....I think it's still yet another 1911 thing, a Spec Ops Battle Belt, and another thingy that I have no clue as to what it is. mm |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:08:46 PM EDT
[#41]
I don't remember exactly what that the Larue gift cert was for, something like any scope mount or rail system? Either way, it's a damned good certificate. I also received one of the Vltor stocks in my prize bag. But the Life, Liberty, Etc. stuff is the coolest. 
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:13:34 PM EDT
[#42]
I'm really just jealous. I wanted to go, but couldn't make it.
Seems I got fired from a huge case last year when I told the client he was fucked. Then, mid september, 45 days before trial, my firm and myself were re-hired and we went to mediation on the weekend the match happened. Seems we are about 6 mill apart so I should have gone to the match and told the other side to go pound sand. I have to say that CAV ARMS and shawn do make one hell of an effort to drive to Texas for these events and when I met these guys last year at Octoberblast they where a hell of a lot of fun. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 11:09:22 PM EDT
[#43]
I got some guys' real names at the match, but didn't correlate these to AR15.com handles... feel free to enlighten us!!
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:56:52 AM EDT
[#44]
Yep, I was the fat guy in Truspec ACUs. It's actually kinda fun to shoot it all in one day.
I saw Zak, but didn't introduce myself. I'm shy.  Pete (DVD Tracker) I knew from last year.The LaRue certificate was for a mount or handguard of choice. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:04:17 AM EDT
[#45]
Anyone want to sell their Larue Gift Certificate, please e-mail me.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:47:41 AM EDT
[#46]
I just got off the phone with the fine folks from LARUE TACTICAL. I got a gift certificate in my goodie bag. Those guys are great. They said I could get any handguard or scope mount I wanted. So i picked my prize. An almost $250.00 handguard. They said it would be shipped in a day or 2. That wasn't even the most expensive thing I could have ordered and sold. It was just what I needed for my next build. Any way with the handguard, and all the stuff in my prize bag, I estimate the retail price of the prizes I won was about $500.00. Not bad considering I was damn near in last place.
It was good to see some familiar faces again, and to meet some new ones. I enjoyed shootong with everyone and hope to do so again. Chad Guinther Trooper Class Squad 1 |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:49:10 AM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:59:43 AM EDT
[#48]
I also used the dummy for support, and even though I don't have a fraction of Benny's experience, I managed to not damage it.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 9:09:50 AM EDT
[#49]
I am kicking myself for not being there.
I would have taken last place with a smile on my face for one of those prize bags. TRG |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 1:57:16 PM EDT
[#50]
I've been shooting matches in one disclipline or another since I was 13.
"You damage it you pay for it" I always considered to be a universal rule. Heck, I even seen it listed under "shooter's etiquette" in gun rags.  |
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