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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 8/23/2010 6:44:45 PM EDT
I bought ammo today and had to sign a log book, and show my license. When the hell did that become a law? I don't normally buy from a retail outlet, but I didn't hear anything about this (I usually buy ammo over the internet). I thought that the FOPA back in the 80's did away with that sort of thing.
Link Posted: 8/23/2010 7:18:49 PM EDT
I bought ammo at Wal-Mart in Glen Burnie about a month ago and didn't have to show an ID. If you don't mind me asking where did this happen?
Link Posted: 8/23/2010 9:37:53 PM EDT
It's not a law, it is Walmart store policy.
The log is reviewed by a task force.
If a convicted felon bought ammo, a warrant is written for their arrest.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:27:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ranxerox911:
I bought ammo today and had to sign a log book, and show my license. When the hell did that become a law? I don't normally buy from a retail outlet, but I didn't hear anything about this (I usually buy ammo over the internet). I thought that the FOPA back in the 80's did away with that sort of thing.


What store was this?

There is absolutely nothing in MD law that mandates this.

The MSP and the AG's office uses it as a strong arm tactic against shops, threatening them with revocation of their licenses or extra special inspections.

You should inform the shop that you will not do any business whatsoever with them so long as they are participating in this extra-legal program and then proceed to tell every gun owner that you know.

We support these businesses in the General Assembly year after year by defending them against all sorts of nasty bills. They can not repay us by turning around and forcing us to do something that has no legal mandate.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 4:49:01 AM EDT
What store?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 5:24:34 AM EDT
The store was A&D Pawn - I was there picking up a purchase, and decided to grab some ammo while I was there. Before anyone goes bad-mouthing them - aside from the ammo log thing, they seem to be a pretty good shop. I'd buy from them again (not ammo), their prices are okay, and the staff seem like a decent bunch.

It must be a real pain to be a gun dealer in Maryland, I have no doubt that the .gov puts the screws to them. I'd like to see them change the practice of keeping a log since it's "voluntary". But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, since in this state and current administration, CYA is probably a good business policy.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 5:38:48 AM EDT
No one is blaming the stores nor should they. The log was NOT their idea.

The idea comes from higher ups at MSP.

I have a lot of friends who are LEOs & I've shot with many MSP troopers. One thing I have noticed about my friends is that they DO NOT like "no" as an answer - especially on the job.

One can only imagine the interaction at the stores when they are confronted with an armed trooper asking them to "voluntarily" participate in the log book program. But again, the higher-ups are behind the whole thing.

Imagine the outcry if the police started asking computer stores to start keeping a log of anyone who buys a printer or software to create a blog?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 8:45:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 8:46:37 AM EDT by KillerTux]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
It's not a law, it is Walmart store policy.
The log is reviewed by a task force.
If a convicted felon bought ammo, a warrant is written for their arrest.

It is not Wal-Mart policy even. MSP goes around and asks stores to keep logs of ammo purchases. I called Wal-Mart HQ and they did not have a policy that required logs for ammo. Go to the Super Wal-Mart in Severn/Glen Burnie and they will not take your name. Wal-Mart only has a FFL as that is all that is required to sell shotguns/rifles that are unregulated in Maryland. So it is just uninformed Store managers that start up the ammo log like at the Wal-Mart in Cambridge, MD. MSP has more power when it comes to gun shops that sell pistols/regulated weapons. The shops must have a FFL AND a regulated firearms license issued by the MSP and you better believe they strong arm those shops into their games.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 10:02:39 AM EDT
I never buy ammo from gun stores, only online because there are better deals to be found. But is what's being discussed in this thread true? or is the talk of MSP keeping ammo logs just tinfoil speculations? If it is true I think MSP has gone
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 10:07:31 AM EDT
Regardless of how exactly it got started, its there in quite a few gun stores.
Personally, I buy all my ammo online, so it isn't an issue for me.
You'd be suprised how many bad guys you nail with those ammo logs.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 5:42:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ranxerox911:
The store was A&D Pawn .


I figured that's who it was. To the best of my knowledge, only they and Fred's and perhaps Bart's were doing it. I thought Fred's had cease doing it after their log was used to initiate a midnight raid to someone's house even though they were perfectly legal in their purchase and ownership of the ammunition and firearm that it was to be used in.

I flat out told Gil that as much as I liked them and would love to continue to do business with them, I couldn't spend money there as long as they were participating in this.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 5:45:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CBR900:
No one is blaming the stores nor should they. The log was NOT their idea.

The idea comes from higher ups at MSP.

I have a lot of friends who are LEOs & I've shot with many MSP troopers. One thing I have noticed about my friends is that they DO NOT like "no" as an answer - especially on the job.

One can only imagine the interaction at the stores when they are confronted with an armed trooper asking them to "voluntarily" participate in the log book program. But again, the higher-ups are behind the whole thing.

Imagine the outcry if the police started asking computer stores to start keeping a log of anyone who buys a printer or software to create a blog?



However, there are plenty of local gun shop owners who have told the MSP to get bent and that they refuse to participate in this extra-legal scheme. They seemingly have not suffered any repercussions.

Oftentimes, the MSP will use this log program as a carrot to counter balance a paperwork violation.....you know..... "Hey look, you've got this error here and it's sort of a big deal. I tell you what, we can make that go away if you'll help us out with this little thing we've got going".

Link Posted: 8/25/2010 5:18:36 AM EDT
I thought that the place in Rockville did not register ammo purchasers.

BTW - there is another log for reloading supplies. Bass Pro - for one - keeps it for MSP.
Link Posted: 8/25/2010 9:00:45 AM EDT
You should of have left. They have no right to record your information. It may be their store policy, and they should suffer because of it. I don't mind showing my ID so they can verify my age, but as soon as they pull out a log book I take back my ID and make it clear to them I will not do business with them from now on.
Link Posted: 8/25/2010 9:15:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CBR900:
No one is blaming the stores nor should they. The log was NOT their idea.

The idea comes from higher ups at MSP.

I have a lot of friends who are LEOs & I've shot with many MSP troopers. One thing I have noticed about my friends is that they DO NOT like "no" as an answer - especially on the job.

One can only imagine the interaction at the stores when they are confronted with an armed trooper asking them to "voluntarily" participate in the log book program. But again, the higher-ups are behind the whole thing.

Imagine the outcry if the police started asking computer stores to start keeping a log of anyone who buys a printer or software to create a blog?


This is a part of the problem. They are letting the MSP push them around. The MSP is nothing better than a bunch of bullies. The log book is VOLUNTARY.
Link Posted: 8/26/2010 8:51:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2010 8:53:43 AM EDT by CBR900]
Originally Posted By Chief20879:
You should of have left. They have no right to record your information. It may be their store policy, and they should suffer because of it. I don't mind showing my ID so they can verify my age, but as soon as they pull out a log book I take back my ID and make it clear to them I will not do business with them from now on.


I did leave. I attempted to buy reloading propellant (TrailBoss, in fact) & they wanted to "log me in." No thanks. I returned to the Commonwealth where no such log exists yet - as far as I know & bought the propellant locally.

Until this log nonesense is stopped, law-abiding Marylanders should simply buy online. Or come on down to VA & buy up all the ammo you like (I think our sales tax might even be a little lower too). You are welcome here in VA.
Link Posted: 8/26/2010 12:40:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2010 12:41:39 PM EDT by TallNorton]
Originally Posted By CBR900:
BTW - there is another log for reloading supplies. Bass Pro - for one - keeps it for MSP.


I think the powder logs are required, though it appears that it is not for primers. However, I agree that it is much nicer to make purchases like that where it is not at all required.
(1) "Explosives" means gunpowder, powders for blasting, high explosives, blasting materials, fuses other than electric circuit breakers, detonators and other detonating agents, smokeless powder, and any chemical compound or mechanical mixture that contains oxidizing and combustible units or other ingredients in such proportions, quantities, or packing that ignition by fire, friction, concussion, percussion, or detonation of any part of the compound or mixture may and is intended to cause an explosion.


(3) "Explosives" does not include fixed ammunition for small arms, small arms ammunition primers, small arms percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, friction primers, fireworks, or common matches when used in their original configuration.



§ 11-112. Records and reports of manufacturers and dealers.



(a) Records.-

(1) Each manufacturer and each dealer shall keep, for all explosives shipped, purchased, or sold, a record that includes:

(i) the name and address of each consignee, buyer, or seller of the explosives;

(ii) the date of each shipment, purchase, or sale; and

(iii) the amount and description of the explosives.

(2) Each record kept under this subsection shall at all times be open for inspection by agents of the licensing authority and by federal, State, and local law enforcement officers.

(3) (i) Subject to subparagraph (ii) of this paragraph, each manufacturer and each dealer shall provide a copy of each record kept under this subsection to the State Fire Marshal in the form that the State Fire Marshal requires.

(ii) A record kept under this subsection shall be provided on request, but need not be filed more than once in each calendar month.



Link Posted: 8/26/2010 12:43:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CBR900:I did leave. I attempted to buy reloading propellant (TrailBoss, in fact) & they wanted to "log me in." No thanks. I returned to the Commonwealth where no such log exists yet - as far as I know & bought the propellant locally.
.


Was it for just powder or were you getting primers too? I can't remember if I've ever had to do the log for the primers.
Link Posted: 8/26/2010 1:16:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2010 1:17:08 PM EDT by CBR900]
It was just for the powder. Usually, the PA guys who ran "T and T Reloading Supplies" would show up to many of the larger gunshows down here . Back in 2004 or so, they sold 5,000 winchester SP primers for $68 cash & carry, so I usually just bought those. But I was also shooting about 15K rounds a year back then. I have not fired a shot in over a year.
Link Posted: 8/26/2010 5:26:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CBR900:
I have not fired a shot in over a year.


I feel your pain. It seems like the more I do to maintain the right to shoot them, the less and less time I actually have to shoot. The irony......
Link Posted: 8/27/2010 5:11:39 AM EDT
I've been working hard on raising the next generation of shooters; they are under 2 & 1/2 and sleep is in short supply these days. I understand it gets better over time.
Link Posted: 8/27/2010 2:00:08 PM EDT
Its not law - its corporate policy.
Link Posted: 8/28/2010 12:57:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CWO:
Its not law - its corporate policy.


Even at Wal-Mart, it's not corporate level policy. The managers make the decision as whether to participate or not. Years ago, I stopped in the Cambridge Wal-Mart and they tried to log my purchase. I told them "no" and left well over $100 of merchandise on the counter and walked out.

I called the manager and read him the riot act about the fact that it was not a legal requirement and that there were extreme security issues with their maintaining a ring binder of personal information that could be stolen and used as a shopping list to rob their customers. Once he understood that they could have liability if that were to occur, they stopped maintaining the log books.

Link Posted: 8/28/2010 5:13:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2010 9:57:10 PM EDT
I was asked if the .22lr I was buying was for a rifle or handgun. Why do they want to know that?
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 12:04:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By blackfly53:
I was asked if the .22lr I was buying was for a rifle or handgun. Why do they want to know that?


because if it's for a handgun, you are required to be 21 to purchase it. There's some effed up MD laws dealing with "ammunition exclusively for use in a regulated firearm". It needs to be dealt with because it makes for some very dangerous law that could be used against someone who has not otherwise committed a crime.
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 5:46:04 PM EDT
Walmart tried that with me and I didn't buy from them.

Do cops wonder why people don't like them or do they already know? 99% of them have that same bully/asshole attitude. Pretty soon we will have to go hands free to talk on cell phones. I guess that won't apply to the cop I saw that was doing 70mph while typing with both hands and steering with a knee.
Link Posted: 8/31/2010 7:17:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TallNorton:
Originally Posted By blackfly53:
I was asked if the .22lr I was buying was for a rifle or handgun. Why do they want to know that?


because if it's for a handgun, you are required to be 21 to purchase it. There's some effed up MD laws dealing with "ammunition exclusively for use in a regulated firearm". It needs to be dealt with because it makes for some very dangerous law that could be used against someone who has not otherwise committed a crime.


It's primarily used against the under 21 thugs who ditch/stash their gun but still have ammo on them.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 1:08:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CBR900:
I thought that the place in Rockville did not register ammo purchasers.

BTW - there is another log for reloading supplies. Bass Pro - for one - keeps it for MSP.


They didn't get my info last I was there - maybe 2 months ago.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:31:35 PM EDT
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