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Posted: 1/5/2005 5:33:55 PM EDT
I went shooting today and did about normal. But was thinking what kind of accuracy can you get out of these red dots. I've got a ATN digatal ultra that has a 2MOA dot for one of the settings and thats about all I can get out of it. My best today was 9 out of 10 inside a 2" orange sicker target on a Carters Country small bulls eye paper target at a 100 yards. So how are you guys doing with the other red dots when zeroed at 100yrds? Please no bullshit storys of one hole shots either unless you really did it.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:26:05 PM EDT
Best I have been able to do with my 4MOA-dot aimpoint is about a 3" 5 shot group at 100. Thats using ammo thats good for 1MOA, out of a rifle that probably around 1 to 1.5MOA..... I would guess.

Tho, my aimpoint is not designed to be a target shooter and my eyes/glasses are so bad, I can hardly see the target at 100yds.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:37:04 PM EDT
I had one on my 1911 for a while. It didn't make me any more accurate, but it made target acquisition much faster.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 9:32:02 PM EDT
Allot of red dot sights ar 2 MOA or 3 moa rediculs, and that is about all the accuracy you are going to get. From my experience they are for fast target acquisition, which they do a god job of. If you wont better accuracy then you need to get a good scope because the cros hears on a scope are much thiner than a dot. You will inherently get better accuracy with a scope. my favorite is a 4.5 x 14. I can get 1 hole 5 shot group at a 100 yards, and consistently hit a golf Ball at 200 yards.

I do like a red dot for close in and out to a 100, but if I wont accuracy I use a scope!

Hope this helps with your question!

My two .02
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 2:20:28 AM EDT
Here's a thread which has gone in a similar direction as your question: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=218136, I will be scanning and posting some additional targets there later today, perhaps it will be helpful to you for determining expected groups sizes possible while using red-dot scopes.

Mike
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 3:53:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2005 4:01:21 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
As this thread more aptly describes what the following shows, here are some targets shot recently:

This target is one I regularly use, the large square provides a good reference for holding the 4 MOA dot of the Aimpoints relatively centered and steady:

Rifle: Parts is Parts M4, CMMG 1/7 twist 11.5" chrome-lined barrel w/ 5" FS, ARMS #38 Swan-sleeve & Aimpoint ML2/M68, DPMS lower, tuned stock trigger. Fired from a steady benchrested position.

Range: 100 yards

Conditions: 30 degrees, wind gusty 10-15 (for the following 11.5" + 5" FS upper targets)



Extreme spread = 2.45" for the 5 rounds of Black Hills 77 grn. SMK

This rifle was zeroed at 10 meters due to the shorter barrel and expected used of 0-100 yards. The rifle was zeroed using Winchester Q3131A which is the next target shown.....

Zero Range: 10 meters = 33 feet



Here are 5 rounds of Federal Gold Medal 69 grn. SMKs at the same 10 meter distance:

Note: Point of aim was center of small target



Extreme spread = 0.75" for the 5 rounds of Fed GM 69grn. SMK

Here are 5 rounds of Black Hills 77grn. SMKs at the same 10 meter distance:

Note: Point of aim is center of small black dot (abit hard to see even at the close range, red-dot covered the dot)



Extreme spread = 0.62" for 5 rounds of BH 77grn. SMK

Here is an additional target shot several months ago using the LMT M4 14.5" w/ perm G6, 1/7 twist, KAC RAS II equipped upper, Aimpoint ML2/M68 on hump on Bushmaster lower w/ RRA 2-stage trigger. Fired from steady benchrested position.

Range: 100 yards

Conditions: 78 degrees, wind light, less than 5 mph

Note: This was not the standard target I prefer with the red-dot scopes, as the 4 MOA completely covers the target and Point of Aim for these 5 rounds was 6 o'clock on the black circle.



Extreme spread: 2.85" for 5 rounds of BH 77grn. SMK


These rifles are constant source of ridicule and humor from my dad, who tends to prefer the one-hole 5 shot groups he regularly posts at 100 yards using a variety of scoped bolt action rifles. He has a bit of difficulty understanding that if I desire one-hole groups I simply have to change to the CR6724 Leupold scoped AR and my handloads and has very little appreciation for the CQB aspects of red-dot sighted M4 rifles. Quite understandable from someone who makes short work of crows at ranges up to 600 yards on a sometimes daily basis.

Hopefully folks here with appreciate the fact that when using 11.5", 14.5" and 16" M4 rifles, Aimpoint or EOTech scoped rifles, they cannot possibly hope to compete with properly scoped rifles for accuracy/group size. MSTN and others have proven how accurate the shorter barreled rifle can be when equipped with a more precision optic and there is no doubt in my mind that either of the two uppers involved above can shoot sub-MOA groups with the rounds they like, PROPERLY scoped, but then that is not the point of the question here.

These rifles are NOT set-up for accuracy, (although I think the groups above do show they have that potential) they are set-up for practical CQB type shooting and in that role I am very happy with their performance.

Perhaps some of ya will find this useful.
Mike
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 9:40:10 PM EDT
Thanks for that info Mike (yikes 30 degrees) . Ya I would never compare the accuracy from a red dot to that of a scoped rifle, it was just a thought of how well could you shoot with a dot. I know what I can do but whats the average and was I even in the average. I agree thay are mostly for close in work but there not to bad if you have to strech it out there a bit. Thanks for the info guys.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 7:26:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 7:37:09 PM EDT by URFUBAR]
HERE IS WHAT I GOT WITH MY "2"

GARLAND , TX. outdoor range. 100 yrds

2 rifle :

A2 16" AE hollow point ammo. 50 gr ( 15 rounds on paper )
Flat top Heavy Barrel WOLF Poly ammo. 55 gr ( 15 rounds on paper )


A2
[img=img63.exs.cx/img63/8200/10000269ls.th.jpg]


Flat top
[img=img63.exs.cx/img63/6494/10000253zc.th.jpg]


Here are the girls
[img=img63.exs.cx/img63/3543/mybabyars6fi.th.jpg]


I also got a DEER 100 yrds exactly were I had the dot - she jumped straight up, ran 10 feet, dropped.
Lquified the insides around the bullet. ( Used WOLF POLY)
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 7:27:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 7:28:04 PM EDT by URFUBAR]
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