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Posted: 11/21/2008 6:59:57 PM EDT
My buddy carries a 26 in the small of his back and the other day he was at hardware store and when leaving without purchasing anything a employee yells after him as he goes to leave.
"Sir what do you have in the back of your shirt"
My friend just says "A Gun"
He just walks out and no one said or did anything.

But it brings up a good point what is the right or correct thing to say if someone asks you that when in a store. Do you just say something, quietly ask them to the side and simply show them and your permit.

What you guys think or what would you say or do??

I turn 21 in January and will be going the day im 21 to get my permit.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:02:34 PM EDT
You aren't clear as to whether he was concealed or open carrying.

If concealed, I'd ignore the employee as my name isn't "sir" and that employee could be talking to anyone.

If open carry, well duh, it isn't like you're hiding it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:04:04 PM EDT
I'd say..
"It's my personal protection."

If (s)he asks anything else, I'd show him/her my permit.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:09:40 PM EDT
Ya it was concealed and im suprised he saw it. He usually wears a shirt and sweatshirt, and has a bigger build.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:14:57 PM EDT
You should tell him to quit carrying in in the small of his back. If he ever gets knocked on his ass it could cause serious problems. As for an answer to the nosy ass clerk, I'd probably tell him it's a pistol as well (in the case he thought your buddy was shoplifting.) Also, your buddy should wear bigger shirts.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:15:16 PM EDT
Stop and calmly explain what I had.

Had almost the same thing happen at the local Wally World.

The door nazi saw the lump and asked me to lift my shirt.

I refused, told her to call her manager.

I tod the manager what it was, he smiled and apologized and told me to have a nice day.

I make it a point to say hi to that old door bat whenever I see her working.

Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:15:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jek11688:
My buddy carries a 26 in the small of his back and the other day he was at hardware store and when leaving without purchasing anything a employee yells after him as he goes to leave.
"Sir what do you have in the back of your shirt"
My friend just says "A Gun"
He just walks out and no one said or did anything.

But it brings up a good point what is the right or correct thing to say if someone asks you that when in a store. Do you just say something, quietly ask them to the side and simply show them and your permit.

What you guys think or what would you say or do??

I turn 21 in January and will be going the day im 21 to get my permit.


I think this story needs some more details... If it was concealed, that was a horrible concealment and your friends needs better cover. The point of CC is so that people don't see it. If he was open carrying then that shouldn't be an issue.

But if confronted by an employee and asked I'd say it's a gun. I wouldn't show them my permit since they have no reason to see it. They are not a cop they have no need to see my permit. If they don't like it that I have a gun then I'll just leave.

Remember the only ones that can make a "deal" out of you having a gun are cops. And unless they have reasonable cause they can't even ask you if you have a gun. But if it's a cop that asks for your permit you should show them.

Just keep your calm and don't freak out or lash out or anything; also don't go taking your gun to show them or anything cause that might be seen as an aggressive action or something...

So in short; keep your calm, if asked tell them you have a gun, if they have a problem with it leave.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:18:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KA3B:
Stop and calmly explain what I had.

Had almost the same thing happen at the local Wally World.

The door nazi saw the lump and asked me to lift my shirt.

I refused, told her to call her manager.

I tod the manager what it was, he smiled and apologized and told me to have a nice day.

I make it a point to say hi to that old door bat whenever I see her working.



Are you fucking kidding me? Had that been a colostomy bag you could have sued the fuck out of wally world for hiring an old bat that was infringing on your privacy. What an old cunt.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:26:09 PM EDT
Nobody asks me questions like this, because I do a better job of concealing it than your friend obviously does.

Seriously, he needs to pay more attention to concealment.

That said, if I WAS asked this, I suppose I'd say "oh, that's my lawfully carried sidearm. I can show you my I.D. and permit if you'd like," just so they'd know I'm one of the good guys. No problem with that.

Wouldn't just ignore 'em, I don't think...............they have to watch out for shoplifters, ya know. Not gonna have some store idiot chasing me outta the store because he thinks I've got merchandise under the shirt. I'm not about causing a scene.

But yeah, bottom line, he should conceal better. This kinda thing does NOT need to happen.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 8:39:26 PM EDT
I dont have to worry about this problem B/C I wear a wool jacket that conceals my gun
and if I want to wear a sweatshirt I open carry.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 8:45:38 PM EDT
Needs MOAR MS Paint!


No seriously, when people ask, I just lower my voice and calmly tell them I'm carrying. I don't really try to hide that I'm carrying, just havn't found a comfortable OC rig.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 8:55:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ViniVidivici:
Nobody asks me questions like this, because I do a better job of concealing it than your friend obviously does.

Seriously, he needs to pay more attention to concealment.

That said, if I WAS asked this, I suppose I'd say "oh, that's my lawfully carried sidearm. I can show you my I.D. and permit if you'd like," just so they'd know I'm one of the good guys. No problem with that.

Wouldn't just ignore 'em, I don't think...............they have to watch out for shoplifters, ya know.
Not gonna have some store idiot chasing me outta the store because he thinks I've got merchandise under the shirt. I'm not about causing a scene.

But yeah, bottom line, he should conceal better. This kinda thing does NOT need to happen.


Retail stores aren't allowed to detain you or lay their hands on you, as far as I know. All they can do is tail and report, if they suspect you of shoplifting. They have to call the cops –– the only party I would admit to carrying a concealed gun as well as show my permit.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:07:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Procyon:
Originally Posted By ViniVidivici:
Nobody asks me questions like this, because I do a better job of concealing it than your friend obviously does.

Seriously, he needs to pay more attention to concealment.

That said, if I WAS asked this, I suppose I'd say "oh, that's my lawfully carried sidearm. I can show you my I.D. and permit if you'd like," just so they'd know I'm one of the good guys. No problem with that.

Wouldn't just ignore 'em, I don't think...............they have to watch out for shoplifters, ya know.
Not gonna have some store idiot chasing me outta the store because he thinks I've got merchandise under the shirt. I'm not about causing a scene.

But yeah, bottom line, he should conceal better. This kinda thing does NOT need to happen.


Retail stores aren't allowed to detain you or lay their hands on you, as far as I know. All they can do is tail and report, if they suspect you of shoplifting. They have to call the cops –– the only party I would admit to carrying a concealed gun as well as show my permit.


No, wasn't talkin' about them "putting their hands on me", no that's a whole other ball o' wax. That ain't happenin'.

I know what you're sayin, as far as only admitting things to cops. Just seems to me.............bein' friendly about it would make things easier. Hell no, they don't get to hold my I.D., they don't get to hold my CPL, or take it anywhere. I got a big problem with that too.

But it's like "hey, I'm not doin' anything wrong here" to the manager, figure I can be on my way after that.

If they aren't satisfied at that point, yeah, fuck 'em. They can waste cops valuable time if they want. No skin off my back.

Again though, avoiding this shit is the key, I'd say.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:08:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Procyon:
Originally Posted By ViniVidivici:
Nobody asks me questions like this, because I do a better job of concealing it than your friend obviously does.

Seriously, he needs to pay more attention to concealment.

That said, if I WAS asked this, I suppose I'd say "oh, that's my lawfully carried sidearm. I can show you my I.D. and permit if you'd like," just so they'd know I'm one of the good guys. No problem with that.

Wouldn't just ignore 'em, I don't think...............they have to watch out for shoplifters, ya know.
Not gonna have some store idiot chasing me outta the store because he thinks I've got merchandise under the shirt. I'm not about causing a scene.

But yeah, bottom line, he should conceal better. This kinda thing does NOT need to happen.


Retail stores aren't allowed to detain you or lay their hands on you, as far as I know. All they can do is tail and report, if they suspect you of shoplifting. They have to call the cops –– the only party I would admit to carrying a concealed gun as well as show my permit.



Not even close to being true. I can detain you.... physically if necessary. I can also handcuff you if the situation calls for that. Very rarely do we ever need to call the police for a simple shoplift. We detain the person, recover the merchandise, complete the paperwork and turn the paperwork over to the police department if we are filing charges. The only time I call the police is if it is a felony dollar amount, the subject fights or runs, or if the subject doesn't have ID.

Technically I call the police every time to check for warrants, if the subject doesn't have any warrants then they get to leave and receive a date for a court appearance in the mail.


I would not have stopped, nor would I have said anything to the employee. If he follows me out I would ask him if he is detaining me for shoplifting. If so then he can go ahead and call the police. After the police arrive and our business is finished. I will contact an attorney and collect my fat paycheck from the retailer.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:11:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VR-15:
I dont have to worry about this problem B/C I wear a wool jacket that conceals my gun
and if I want to wear a sweatshirt I open carry.


IMO best way to open carry is w. a drop leg holster :D be all tacticool.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:14:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kooter:I can detain you.... physically if necessary. I can also handcuff you if the situation calls for that. Very rarely do we ever need to call the police for a simple shoplift. We detain the person, recover the merchandise, complete the paperwork and turn the paperwork over to the police department if we are filing charges. The only time I call the police is if it is a felony dollar amount, the subject fights or runs, or if the subject doesn't have ID.


Is this legally anywhere on store property, inside the building only, or are you given "posse priviledges" where you can stalk me around town, park so that you block me into my driveway, and call the police?

I know some stores, like Fred Meyers, don't want shoplifter arrests being made in the parking lot, so if a shoplifter makes it that far, they just take your pic, pic of your lic. plates, and turn it over to the police.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:20:29 PM EDT
And I think this is one reason to "cooperate", so they DON'T try to fuck with you physically. No need for that.

"Huh? What's that? My gun. Got permit. Anything else?"

Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:26:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By Kooter:I can detain you.... physically if necessary. I can also handcuff you if the situation calls for that. Very rarely do we ever need to call the police for a simple shoplift. We detain the person, recover the merchandise, complete the paperwork and turn the paperwork over to the police department if we are filing charges. The only time I call the police is if it is a felony dollar amount, the subject fights or runs, or if the subject doesn't have ID.


Is this legally anywhere on store property, inside the building only, or are you given "posse priviledges" where you can stalk me around town, park so that you block me into my driveway, and call the police?

I know some stores, like Fred Meyers, don't want shoplifter arrests being made in the parking lot, so if a shoplifter makes it that far, they just take your pic, pic of your lic. plates, and turn it over to the police.


It all depends on what retailer we are talking about. Everyone has different rules on what can and can't be done.

I know Target has an actual Forensic Science unit that they can send items to so they can get fingerprints and other evidence to go after the hardcore ORC groups.

Most every major retailer has field investigators that will conduct mobile surveillance under certain circumstances. Organized retail theft groups cost hundreds of millions if not billions a year. We have worked with FBI, Secret Service and many other Federal law enforecment agencies to assist catching thieves.

Today I worked with the police dept to document a buy-bust in our parking lot regarding a big time car thief/burglar that was fencing goods through our parking lot. He wasn't even involved in stealing from the store. About a month ago, because of my investigation at store level, the police were able to take down a couple of guys that were stealing merchandise to buy heroin to distribute in Grays Harbor Co. When the arrest happened the subjects had about a half pound of heroin on them. Not to mention several thousand dollars worth of stolen merchandise.

Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:32:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By Kooter:I can detain you.... physically if necessary. I can also handcuff you if the situation calls for that. Very rarely do we ever need to call the police for a simple shoplift. We detain the person, recover the merchandise, complete the paperwork and turn the paperwork over to the police department if we are filing charges. The only time I call the police is if it is a felony dollar amount, the subject fights or runs, or if the subject doesn't have ID.


Is this legally anywhere on store property, inside the building only, or are you given "posse priviledges" where you can stalk me around town, park so that you block me into my driveway, and call the police?

I know some stores, like Fred Meyers, don't want shoplifter arrests being made in the parking lot, so if a shoplifter makes it that far, they just take your pic, pic of your lic. plates, and turn it over to the police.



I BELIEVE! (key words :P)

As long as you are on THEIR property they can detain you. HOWEVER once you make it to public property or someone elses private property they can't touch you. This is why Fred Meyers doesn't like to follow people into parking lots because they are usually located in Strip Malls where the Parking lots are public property and the Security Guards have no authority out there. Essentially once you make it out of property of the people you shafted they can't touch you. But after that it becomes a cop problem and it's worst to deal with cops then it is to deal with FM or WallyWorld security.

However I'll prolly be corrected by Phil who will then post fivehundred gagillion RCWs stating that they can face rape you and stick their batton up your butt.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:33:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2008 9:35:36 PM EDT by BusySquirrel]
Originally Posted By Kooter:It all depends on what retailer we are talking about. Everyone has different rules on what can and can't be done.




Lemme rephrase the question, it's kinda a two parter.

1. What is the legal limits of an employees ability to use force to restrain a suspected shoplifter in washington? WHere is the line drawn? Indoor, company property, anywhere they freakin want, as long as they say they are chasing a suspect, etc.

2. What is Walmarts policy (general guideline) on where they stop chasing suspected shoplifters?
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:37:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shakul:
Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By Kooter:I can detain you.... physically if necessary. I can also handcuff you if the situation calls for that. Very rarely do we ever need to call the police for a simple shoplift. We detain the person, recover the merchandise, complete the paperwork and turn the paperwork over to the police department if we are filing charges. The only time I call the police is if it is a felony dollar amount, the subject fights or runs, or if the subject doesn't have ID.


Is this legally anywhere on store property, inside the building only, or are you given "posse priviledges" where you can stalk me around town, park so that you block me into my driveway, and call the police?

I know some stores, like Fred Meyers, don't want shoplifter arrests being made in the parking lot, so if a shoplifter makes it that far, they just take your pic, pic of your lic. plates, and turn it over to the police.



I BELIEVE! (key words :P)

As long as you are on THEIR property they can detain you. HOWEVER once you make it to public property or someone elses private property they can't touch you. This is why Fred Meyers doesn't like to follow people into parking lots because they are usually located in Strip Malls where the Parking lots are public property and the Security Guards have no authority out there. Essentially once you make it out of property of the people you shafted they can't touch you. But after that it becomes a cop problem and it's worst to deal with cops then it is to deal with FM or WallyWorld security.

However I'll prolly be corrected by Phil who will then post fivehundred gagillion RCWs stating that they can face rape you and stick their batton up your butt.


Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:38:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dallasfromdallas:
You should tell him to quit carrying in in the small of his back. If he ever gets knocked on his ass it could cause serious problems. As for an answer to the nosy ass clerk, I'd probably tell him it's a pistol as well (in the case he thought your buddy was shoplifting.) Also, your buddy should wear bigger shirts.



+3.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:43:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KA3B:
Stop and calmly explain what I had.

Had almost the same thing happen at the local Wally World.

The door nazi saw the lump and asked me to lift my shirt.

I refused, told her to call her manager.

I tod the manager what it was, he smiled and apologized and told me to have a nice day.

I make it a point to say hi to that old door bat whenever I see her working.



Next time whisper in her ear; "want to touch it?"

Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:51:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By Kooter:It all depends on what retailer we are talking about. Everyone has different rules on what can and can't be done.




Lemme rephrase the question, it's kinda a two parter.

1. What is the legal limits of an employees ability to use force to restrain a suspected shoplifter in washington? WHere is the line drawn? Indoor, company property, anywhere they freakin want, as long as they say they are chasing a suspect, etc.

2. What is Walmarts policy (general guideline) on where they stop chasing suspected shoplifters?



1. To my knowledge, there is no limit that the state gives to where we can use force. Back in the day we could chase someone until we caught them, whether on property or not. Problems arose when shoplifters, employees, customers were getting hurt trying to stop a subject for stealing a $1 tube of lipstick. Big time lawsuits tend to change policies pretty quick.

I am talking country and retailer wide in the above situation, nothing that happened locally.

2. I can't get into too many specifics, as I don't know what is public info. But I will say that we no longer chase off property, and we have to terminate the pursuit if we believe anyone, whether it is us, lifter, or by-stander is going to be injured.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:54:51 PM EDT
When are you guys gonna get with the program an' start price gougin'?
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 10:00:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kooter:
Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By Kooter:It all depends on what retailer we are talking about. Everyone has different rules on what can and can't be done.




Lemme rephrase the question, it's kinda a two parter.

1. What is the legal limits of an employees ability to use force to restrain a suspected shoplifter in washington? WHere is the line drawn? Indoor, company property, anywhere they freakin want, as long as they say they are chasing a suspect, etc.

2. What is Walmarts policy (general guideline) on where they stop chasing suspected shoplifters?



1. To my knowledge, there is no limit that the state gives to where we can use force. Back in the day we could chase someone until we caught them, whether on property or not. Problems arose when shoplifters, employees, customers were getting hurt trying to stop a subject for stealing a $1 tube of lipstick. Big time lawsuits tend to change policies pretty quick.

I am talking country and retailer wide in the above situation, nothing that happened locally.

2. I can't get into too many specifics, as I don't know what is public info. But I will say that we no longer chase off property, and we have to terminate the pursuit if we believe anyone, whether it is us, lifter, or by-stander is going to be injured.


Exactly what what I was asking about.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 10:11:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2008 10:13:48 PM EDT by shakul]
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.


The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.


Hmmm according to this you can't do anything to them unless they are in your building/commiting a felony/you are a cop... However if they did shoplift and you knew they shoplifted and you chased them because you thought they were shoplifting a felony amount I'm pretty sure calling the cops after you caught the person and telling them about it you would be fine. I mean a defense attorney could say that you didn't follow the law and you detained someone who didn't commit a felony, but who is to say you knew that the person had not commited a felony.


to add

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.080

RCW 9A.16.080
Action for being detained on mercantile establishment premises for investigation — "Reasonable grounds" as defense.


In any criminal action brought by reason of any person having been detained on or in the immediate vicinity of the premises of a mercantile establishment for the purpose of investigation or questioning as to the ownership of any merchandise, it shall be a defense of such action that the person was detained in a reasonable manner and for not more than a reasonable time to permit such investigation or questioning by a peace officer, by the owner of the mercantile establishment, or by the owner's authorized employee or agent, and that such peace officer, owner, employee, or agent had reasonable grounds to believe that the person so detained was committing or attempting to commit theft or shoplifting on such premises of such merchandise. As used in this section, "reasonable grounds" shall include, but not be limited to, knowledge that a person has concealed possession of unpurchased merchandise of a mercantile establishment, and a "reasonable time" shall mean the time necessary to permit the person detained to make a statement or to refuse to make a statement, and the time necessary to examine employees and records of the mercantile establishment relative to the ownership of the merchandise.



It says here you can detain them but nothing about chasing them. However I think it's implied that if you are trying to detain someone then you prolly have to go after them which means that you could probably chase them till someone gets tired first :O


So I was probably wrong in my other post lol
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 10:35:43 PM EDT
Note to self: DO NOT SHOPLIFT!
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