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Posted: 1/10/2005 12:42:11 PM EDT
Poll on the way.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 12:47:56 PM EDT
I need to pick more than one. I want to see aimless and bk1 out of here AND Garryowen as Mod. Actually the first three.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 12:50:16 PM EDT
+1
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 12:51:34 PM EDT
This is a sad day...
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 12:53:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Poll on the way.




Can non-AZ'ers and non-NMer's vote?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 12:59:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 1:01:20 PM EDT by Az_Redneck]
You know what's going to happen..I can't say it exactly what I want here because I don't want to get banned. So, I'll give you a brief rundown without saying what I REALLY think is going to happen or SHOULD happen...

There will be an angry rant telling us ENOUGH is ENOUGH and the next person who says it will be banned.

Then the moderators and staff will deny any knowledge of anything going on.

Then they'll be back saying that it's the Avila's house and they're just doing as they are told.

Then there will be a nice post saying they are working with the banned individuals to get them back on the board.

Some out-of-staters will be ranting "why can't you Arizona people just keep your mouths shut"

And nothing will be resolved...This is what happened before and last week was just another prime example.

I see more people being banned before the day is over IMO, but my balls aren't crystal
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:06:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:09:30 PM EDT

what is the purpose of all the posts about what maglight is best for breaking skulls. What is with all the new avatars of maglights?
I don't recall any great discussions about which flashlight was best a couple of months ago?



Does the above conduct violate the rules on the "T" word subject as laid down by EdSr?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:15:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:
Az-redneck..I haven't been in this forum much in the last week..till now.
Maybe you can explain something for me.
what is the purpose of all the posts about what maglight is best for breaking skulls. What is with all the new avatars of maglights?
I don't recall any great discussions about which flashlight was best a couple of months ago?
I have my opinion but would like to hear yours.



This whole thing would just die and go away if it were left alone by the mods.
They are pushing an issue over nothing.
Is it worth it ?? to lose valuable LONG TIME paying members and industry partners ?
Is it worth it over a word, or in this case, someone reading into something that isn't there.
So is it ?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:15:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:21:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:24:51 PM EDT
Tag.

Oh, 1,2,3, and 5. Anyone who doesn't vote for 5 should be banned.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:27:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASUsax:
Tag.

Oh, 1,2,3, and 5. Anyone who doesn't vote for 5 should be banned.



Oh yeah, I said 1,2 and 3. But 5 too of course.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:38:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 1:38:51 PM EDT by ASUsax]
ETA: <---- Now that's a neat post count...


Originally Posted By 89grand:

Originally Posted By ASUsax:
Tag.

Oh, 1,2,3, and 5. Anyone who doesn't vote for 5 should be banned.



Oh yeah, I said 1,2 and 3. But 5 too of course.



W00t!
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:45:02 PM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Biggame223:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what is the purpose of all the posts about what maglight is best for breaking skulls. What is with all the new avatars of maglights?
I don't recall any great discussions about which flashlight was best a couple of months ago?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Does the above conduct violate the rules on the "T" word subject as laid down by EdSr?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not at all but you know as well as I do what they are all about.




Well.......some of us are just a bunch of rebels.........

They banned "Assault Weapons" for a while down here.......we found a way around that w/ posties, that was not too popular with the gun control freaks either.......oh well.....

I dont expect you to understand........some folks were given their "independence" and other TOOK IT..

Much Love.......
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:46:24 PM EDT
He should close the whole fucking site......
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:50:34 PM EDT
#5

Because at the end of the day, thats what its all about.

Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:57:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
He should close the whole fucking site......



My office would love that. I would finally get some work done.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 2:00:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 2:01:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 2:19:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 2:20:26 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By Striker:
It is the timing of all these threads...


If not now, when?

If we wait a month or two and then start posting about the utility of maglights as head-banging batons, we'd be accused of dredging up controversial topics and restarting old battles on the board again.

What ya'll seem to fail to realize is that it is the heavy-handed responses by several STAFF here (not you Striker) that keep antagonizing AZ Members and keep this shit being stirred.

Do you REALLY think this would all still be going on for a week and a half and that good Industry Partners like Garryowen would be locked if the Staff here weren't just itching for a fight everytime someone mentions "thump" or "cranium" in the AZ forum?

Link Posted: 1/10/2005 2:23:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 3:26:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 89grand:
I need to pick more than one. I want to see aimless and bk1 out of here AND Garryowen as Mod. Actually the first three.



What do you have against pie?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 3:36:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 3:45:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
You know what's going to happen..I can't say it exactly what I want here because I don't want to get banned. So, I'll give you a brief rundown without saying what I REALLY think is going to happen or SHOULD happen...

There will be an angry rant telling us ENOUGH is ENOUGH and the next person who says it will be banned.

Then the moderators and staff will deny any knowledge of anything going on.

Then they'll be back saying that it's the Avila's house and they're just doing as they are told.

Then there will be a nice post saying they are working with the banned individuals to get them back on the board.

Some out-of-staters will be ranting "why can't you Arizona people just keep your mouths shut"

And nothing will be resolved...This is what happened before and last week was just another prime example.

I see more people being banned before the day is over IMO, but my balls aren't crystal




how many have been banned so far in this shitfest?

Link Posted: 1/10/2005 3:57:51 PM EDT
Learn to play TONK
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 3:57:59 PM EDT
I would like to see the banned word available for use.

Unfortunately, ARFCOM suffers from the same symptoms other organizations do when using the "chain of command". Shit rolls downhill and little to no info goes up.

At this point, I'd encourage people to cease contributing funds to this site due to the outrageous behavior shown here, and the silly banning of a word. It sppears the boat has not been rocked enough.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 4:08:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 4:14:01 PM EDT by sonofbp]

Originally Posted By 89grand:
I need to pick more than one. I want to see aimless and bk1 out of here AND Garryowen as Mod. Actually the first three.


What he said + 5.!
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 5:10:05 PM EDT
1,2 & 3

send them packing unless the thought of running off all the paying members is what they have in mind.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 5:52:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 5:55:03 PM EDT by SPECTRE]

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By Striker:
Az-redneck..I haven't been in this forum much in the last week..till now.
Maybe you can explain something for me.
what is the purpose of all the posts about what maglight is best for breaking skulls. What is with all the new avatars of maglights?
I don't recall any great discussions about which flashlight was best a couple of months ago?
I have my opinion but would like to hear yours.



This whole thing would just die and go away if it were left alone by the mods.
They are pushing an issue over nothing.
Is it worth it ?? to lose valuable LONG TIME paying members and industry partners ?
Is it worth it over a word, or in this case, someone reading into something that isn't there.
So is it ?


I have to disagree with you on who's pushing it Spectre. As you can see from my above post, discussing what size maglite is best for cracking skull's isn't a violation of anything. As amatter of fact I own a 4 c-cell one and use 4 d-cell ones at work and carry them as a flashlight and if needed as a short baton.
However..you guys can't believe we are naive enough to think that just this week a bunch of members from AZ suddenly felt the need to change their avatars to maglites and start threads about the best size flashlight for cranium interaction.
They are keeping this from dying the slow death it should have died last week.



While I understand what you are saying about the topics having different meanings, I would bet that this would have just played itself out if certain mods had let it lie. Had this been left alone it would have had a few more posts and made its way to page two, three and then forgotten.
Technically it didn't violate the COC even if you and other staff/mods see other meanings in it.
The subject was pushed to make a point, thats all, and pushing that point has brought us to this.
Discussing cracking skulls with maglights while not using the EVIL word "tonk" does NOT violate the COC unless I missed some new rule. Someone decided that they were going to make an example and chose their battles poorly.
Thats why I asked was it worth it.

Link Posted: 1/10/2005 6:48:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:
Az-redneck..I haven't been in this forum much in the last week..till now.
Maybe you can explain something for me.
what is the purpose of all the posts about what maglight is best for breaking skulls. What is with all the new avatars of maglights?
I don't recall any great discussions about which flashlight was best a couple of months ago?
I have my opinion but would like to hear yours.



Here is a question for you. WHY do you even care?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 6:52:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Parrandero:
Learn to play TONK



Oh Nooooooo.......
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:01:19 PM EDT
If the site closes let me know.. I can open a new free one where you can say tonk tonkity tonk tonk, if you want.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:09:15 AM EDT
Cut the baby in half.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:23:57 AM EDT
[markm]wOOt[/markm]
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:35:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Cut the baby in half.



Best response yet
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 6:10:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 6:30:31 AM EDT

continue to watch or participate in this train wreck.






Road Trip!!



Link Posted: 1/11/2005 6:37:27 AM EDT
I'll bring the flashlights.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 1:16:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -MyDixieWrecked-:
I'll bring the flashlights.



I'll bring a couple as well.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 1:46:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 1:47:26 PM EDT by WolverineAtWork]

Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr:
I will be visiting Shawn at CavArms, next Saturday afternoon..........if at all possible in my schedule.

While I had originally planned a quiet visit with friends (AZ crew) while in Phoenix,I realize that I am now contemplating a visit to a "hostile" crowd.

I would rather discuss anything you want there, than continue to watch or participate in this train wreck.

I understand some of you will not be able to make it because of distance,prior commitments,lack of desire,etc

I will contact Shawn as soon as possible to see what he can arrange.



Ed, I seriously doubt that anyone from the AZ crew would consider themselves hostile toward you. Some of us have issues with various mods/staff, but I'm pretty sure that all of us understood the meaning of your request just fine and to my knowledge, nobody has since violated your wishes by using the word tonk in a derogatory or insulting manner. Personally, I'd like to meet you and will make every effort to do so if you don't mind.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 1:54:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WolverineAtWork:
Personally, I'd like to meet you and will make every effort to do so if you don't mind.




I highly recommend meeting up with Ed. He's truly one of the good guys.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 8:44:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 8:44:44 AM EDT by napalm]

Originally Posted By Biggame223:
They banned "Assault Weapons" for a while down here.......we found a way around that w/ posties, that was not too popular with the gun control freaks either.......oh well.....




Eh? Please 'splain...

Oh yeah, and don't thank me.... thank Justice Fruit Pies!




Originally Posted By Striker:
However..you guys can't believe we are naive enough to think that just this week a bunch of members from AZ suddenly felt the need to change their avatars to maglites

Link Posted: 1/12/2005 2:24:26 PM EDT
Ed it's your site, if they can't play by your rules, screw them.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:07:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 9:10:41 AM EDT by Tachyon]

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Ed it's your site, if they can't play by your rules, screw them.



I've been reading this thread and the following the situation for the past few days. While the specific situation affected Arizonans first, it affects everyone on the board through CavArms and the spillover from here to other forums. There are a few points I'd like to make.

Point 1 - Site Management

This is the part where I disagree with PaDanby and why I started with a quote of his post.

I emailed Ed Sr. and his reply made me feel much better about him and AR-15.com than I've felt in quite a while.

His reply was basically that the site is great because of the people that post here. Some contribute more than others, and some contribute both good and bad, but it's the people, not the domain name that makes it a good place to go.

I'd been feeling more and more that the site had become a business, but Ed Sr. pointed out that it's basically a business to pay for itself, not make the Avilas, Staff or Mods rich. If you look closely, you'll find that much of what comes in goes to the hosting and bandwidth costs (with the number of members, that bill has to be enormous), to giveaways and to finding good deals for equipment that would be more expensive otherwise.

People who feel like PaDanby remind me of carpetbaggers during Reconstruction. They don't understand the situation and don't care what happens around them so long as they get what they want. Oh, and they look good with brown on their noses. This situation was touched off not by someone breaking the rules, but by someone mistaking something for a rules violation. There is a very large difference there.

Point 2 - Site Staff

Has anyone here ever worked as a volunteer for someone? Boy Scouts? YMCA? etc.? That's the people who are Staff and Mods. They are chosen because of a number of reasons, but they're all volunteers. I don't think they get paid for their time except for a little swag here and there. Believe it or not, they have lives outside AR15.com as well.

When you are an unpaid volunteer and you have a bunch of people who flout the rules, it's not easy. The rules for Staff and Mods are apparently strict in some areas and looser in others. They can join conversations as regular members or they can speak officially. Sometimes it's hard to tell which, and that can cause problems. TBK1 is a self proclaimed troll hunter. When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail. When all you have is a ban button, everyone starts looking like a troll.

Aimless made a mistake. Do you understand why he made his mistake? Because he had been cleaning up crap all over the site and got to something that he mistook for the same thing. It's not GaryOwen's fault, but part of the blame lies with every troll and shit-stirrer on the board, not just with Aimless.

Most of the time the Staff and Moderators do a good job. When they make a mistake, let's all learn from it and go on.

Point 3 - Site Members and the CoC

Some people don't look at the CoC as a tool to keep the site a useful and interesting place to converse with friends and get insight into our favorite weapon system. They see it as a place to push the rules and flex their cyber muscles in contests with other people, including Staff and Mods. Dealing with them has made the Staff and Mods more sensitive to possible attempts to circumvent the spirit of the CoC. When they make mistakes, they're supposed to apologize and learn from it.

Contrary to popular belief, posting on this board isn't a God given right. It's a privilege that we all happen to pay for through memberships, advertising, industry partnerships and other ways. Those that aren't paid members are still given the same privilege. When someone screws up, they lose that privilege.

The CoC is intended to keep the site useful, entertaining and friendly. When people break the CoC, they obviously aren't interested in these goals. Posts don't have to be all three or even any of these, but they can't fail any of these three tests. Posting porn may be entertaining, but it's not family friendly or useful. Using offensive language may be entertaining and it may be used to discuss something useful, but it fails the third test.

Baiting Staff or Mods in their official capacity indicates that you aren't interested in maintaining the environment that most of us have come to enjoy.

Point 4 - Rebellion

Rebellion for the sake of rebellion is stupid. Rebellion for a just cause is noble. Knowing the difference between the two is wisdom.

Point 5 - Illegal Immigration

I hate Illegal Immigration. I hate I-9er's, too. Importing people to make more money for big corporations at the cost of legal resident's livelihoods is evil, unethical and immoral. Unfortunately, the U.S. Government isn't listening to the majority of Americans, they're listening to the minority of special interest groups who think that illegal immigration and importing foreign workers to displace Americans is a fine thing. If there aren't enough Americans to do a job, immigration is good, but when it displaces existing workers, it's a vile, despicable action.

Closing

I appreciate the opportunity to learn and converse with like minded folk on this forum. I don't think that the Owners, Staff or Moderators are out to get anyone, but I think that in trying to make this place politically correct for one or two people who object to a word, they're offending more people than they're making happy. As members of whatever level, we have the obligation to make this a good place to visit for the majority of people who might be interested. Illegal aliens aren't legally able to own an AR-15, and as such they aren't part of our community. Using an epithet that is offensive to them shouldn't be an issue to them since they have no business here. It should be an issue to us because it demeans the user as well as the target.

Tachyon
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:13:30 AM EDT
Since I started this thread I'll add my two cents. I'll also bring these suggestions up with Ed when I see him on Saturday.

1. Let the hometown mods manage the content in the hometown forums. If they feel things are getting out of hand they can ask for staff to step in and lock someone's account.

2. Grant some freedom of expression with the use of verbiage. Referring to criminals illegally in this country as _____, is not the same as using the term crackers to describe all caucasians. An example would be the term wetbacks. The term originated from illegal aliens (mostly hispanic) swimming across the Rio Grande and having wet clothes. If I say I hate wetback drivers because they never have car insurance I am not referring to an entire race of people. I'm referring to illegal aliens in this country. It may be slang but it's not derogatory.

I just ask for a little more freedom and less huggy feely PC crap.

Another good example is the use of the word Squaw. This is another sore spot with Arizonans. Some super PC type decided that squaw meant vagina and everything named squaw was offensive to native Americans. But if you really look at the definition it doesn't have that meaning at all.

In the 1960s and 70s a small but vocal minority in the United States began to question our use of certain words that may be offensive to specific groups or individuals. In some cases these questions were justified but the impossible task of trying to purge our language of all possible offensive terms has caused the movement to grow beyond all reason. Many perfectly acceptable words have been branded as offensive or sexist by the movement. The political correctness advocates then proceed to try to get them eliminated from public use. Among these is the word 'squaw.'

'Squaw' has a perfectly acceptable definition: it means 'woman', or 'wife' in the Algonquian language where it originated. The radical American Indian Movement (A.I.M.) has fairly successfully attached a false meaning to the word and spread the lie nationwide. They have then been able to use this fallacy to support a systematic removal of all place names that use this word. Phoenix is a recent victim of this offense.

Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:14:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 89grand:
I need to pick more than one. I want to see aimless and bk1 out of here AND Garryowen as Mod. Actually the first three.





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