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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 8/10/2004 4:52:46 PM EST
Sorry I'm a little behind the times on this one........but I've been out of the shooting scene for a couple years. I just found out that B&B had closed down. Does anyone know what the story was there? Was it simply a matter of them going broke?

Man it's a shame what has happened to the shooting scene here in CA. I remember back in the day B&B was heaven, with evil black guns hanging from every wall.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 5:55:19 PM EST
Shitty customer service, hig prices, high overhead, and a political climate unfriendly to gun stores...
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 6:41:57 PM EST
Nope, what i've heard, and it is not official, B&B was owned by 2 brothers, one of them was pushing guns out the back door with no 4477s, which is big Bozo no-no. The brother was caught by the boys from BATF. Their sales started to fall, and they went bankrupt.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 6:56:03 PM EST
Wasn't that B&E that got caught playing fast & loose with their practices and record keeping?

In any case, B&B had good prices sometimes on somethings, but not all the time, and I ran into more than a few egotists behind the counter.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 7:14:33 PM EST
Yeah, there were some real a-holes working there. If you weren't planning on buying at that very second the salesmen wouldn't give you the time of day. Actually to be fair though the owner was a nice guy. I remember he was real cool about showing us anything we wanted, even though we were just teenagers at the time. For that reason I always bought from them despite the attitude of the hired help.

I could tell the last time I was in there (well over a year ago) that they were in trouble. The shelves were looking pretty bare. They sold an '03 Springfield for me on consignment and I had to bust their balls to get my money from them. Anyway, I have a lot of good memories of drooling over all the assault weapons when I was a kid. I just wondered if anyone knew what the story was.
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 8:26:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Doctor M14:
Yeah, there were some real a-holes working there. If you weren't planning on buying at that very second the salesmen wouldn't give you the time of day. Actually to be fair though the owner was a nice guy. I remember he was real cool about showing us anything we wanted, even though we were just teenagers at the time. For that reason I always bought from them despite the attitude of the hired help.

I could tell the last time I was in there (well over a year ago) that they were in trouble. The shelves were looking pretty bare. They sold an '03 Springfield for me on consignment and I had to bust their balls to get my money from them. Anyway, I have a lot of good memories of drooling over all the assault weapons when I was a kid. I just wondered if anyone knew what the story was.


They started to straighten their act up about a 1 year before they crashed, but I guess too little, too late. I heard from the HK salesman that B&B was in was having cash flow problems. I was in the store prior to the 1989 AW ban, and they had 6 semi-auto FAMAS(very rare today) on the counter!
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 11:15:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2004 11:57:59 PM EST by Skunkworks45]
Warlord has it closest to right - their books and 4473/DOJ records/files, fingerprint for ammo files, and all else were OK, it was the record keeping when it came to money that was the problem. It was known that many wholesalers and manufacturers were not getting their invoices paid in a timely manner and it was believed that a good amount of the funds from the consignment sales were not getting into the hands of the sellers in an appropriate time frame. Often selllers on the consigment guns never knew their guns had been sold, and it was plausible that the funds were being used "temporarily" to cover other business costs! Sellers would come back in to pick up their guns and not find them in the case, often weeks to months after they were sold. If you knew B&B, you know their used and consignment stuff moved fast. You would see something as they were putting it in the case, come back the next day and it was sold.

Anybody remember the time that some CA DOJ jerks went hellbent into their store with guns drawn to sieze records and shut down B&B for a day, because B&B was charging $10 to $20 for "storage fees" on private party transfers. It even ended up as a story in the Los Angeles Crimes (Oh, sorry, Los Angeles Times - it's just a crime that the Otis [hypocite] Chandler influenced anti-gun rag is called a newspaper). Anyway, turns out that the law DID allow dealers to charge for storage fees of a gun in association with private party transfers and was not clear on the amount. One text stated $10 but another gave no maximum, just stated "fees". Lockyer told his henchmen they were in error and to back off. Later that month, a bulletin was issued to all FFL dealers stating the additional fee limit that could be charged on Private Party Transfers ($10). However, to this day, it is still unclear on the storage fee, which may be interpreted to mean any amount.

The DOJ "raid" was induced by a DOJ jerk that came to the store to do a transfer toa friend and B&B was charging him the fee. He objected, got beligerant, stating that as a state official he should not have to pay the B&B transfer fees. B&B said he would have to pay the fees or they would not do the transfer. In CA, an FFL must process a private party transfer on handguns, and this DOJ jerk was attempting to use B&B's demand that the fees be paid as a denial of their willingness to process his handgun transfer. Really? The DOJ jerk was just upset that he was being treated like everyone else; it turns out his transfer was to a civilian, so there was nothing special about his transfer. So two weeks later, the "raid" mentioned above went off. Lockyer was not happy about the raid, and B&B handled it appropriately.

The best line I ever got out of B&B - up to and over 6 months before they closed their stock was extremely depleted. I normally dealt with Ralph at B&B because he was the only guy there that would give me a straight answer and no bullshit. He was busy (and I had a "number" that was called - anyone remember that bullshit! "Take a number"). Anyway, I asked another salesman (when my number was called) why they no longer had any H&K's or Glocks; it is true there had been a shortage for a little while due to the Australian military placing a big order to Glock, but that was several months earlier. I wanted to check out a small framed H&K: he told me that there was a shortage of H&K's due to the huge Austrailian contract. I said "What are you talking about? There is no huge Australian H&K contract! There are hardly any rifles left, you've got almost no Springfields or ParaOrdnances anymore, and I know that there is no shortage anywhere of H&K's for any reason."

Then he said, that it was simply a combination of things, but it was mostly because they were in the process of revolving their inventory and would be replenishing it with newer items. I told himI had been going there for years and dealing with Robert and Ralph for a long time - cut the crap; when is the store closing its doors? He just gave me a grim look of "I would tell you more but I'm not allowed to" shrugged his shoulders and walked away. I also took it to mean "Dude, save your self the hassle and don't buy anything from us right now".

That was my last time in there - they closed just a few weeks later. I heard that anyone that had guns on consignment had a big problem getting them back, as well as those that had bought guns had trouble with pick-ups.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 11:56:28 PM EST
By the way Doc, you said:

"If you weren't planning on buying at that very second the salesmen wouldn't give you the time of day"

That is EXACTLY right. The salesmen were instructed to drop you like a rock if it looked like you were not ready to buy at that moment or were "shopping".

I only went to B&B when I already knew what I wanted to buy and had cash in hand - that is probably why they never hassled me. But everyone here is right - most of the salesmen at B&B had major attitudes. I was often shocked at how they would treat other customers, especially those showing a genuine albeit new interest in shooting. If the newbies were not already schooled on all aspects and designs of guns, the reps at B&B would ream them. I often felt bad for those customers because here wee new people to shooting sports of just interested in a self-defense gun, and B&B reps would belittle them for their dumb questions. Well, of course they are dumb questions, because they are dumb until you answer the question. Rather than being passionate about new people entering into shooting sports, B&B reps would often treat them like outsiders that should not enter their "club."


Ohter stores that have closed recently:

Red Star Military on Washington Blvd., in Culver City (June 2004)
Gold Coast Trading Company in Huntington Beach (June 2004)
C&P Armory in Torrance on PCH (last year)
Tuan's in Rowland Hts. (July 2004 or still in process of closing? )
Western Surplus on Hawthorne Blvd. stopped dealing in guns in July 2002
Pony Express in Paramount by the Van Nuys airport (2 years ago?)
Brass Nail on La Brea in Hollywood (Spring 1998?)
The Gun Mart (name?) at San Vicente and La Cienega (Summer 1997?)

That's all I can think of right now. Anyone care to make a list of what is still open in Southern CA ?
(Of course, LA Guns, Rettings, Gun World on Melrose, Burbank [another store on Melrose but I fogert the name, across and down from Gun World], King's Gun Works, Bain & Davis, all the Turner's Outdoorsman stores, Sharpshooters Target Range, near Torrance [sells some guns], ARM USA in Anaheim, and ?????????????????????????????????????????????­?)

I saw elsewhere on ARFC that Armanino Gun Shop up in S. San Francisco just closed the other day. But that's not Southern CA.

If you ever do get up to Sacramento area (Penryn, CA) check out a great store called Sportsman's Access and talk with Tyler. Very nice guy - if you collect high-end classic Shotguns and rifles, new, rare, and antique, or $$$$$$ that is the store for you.

Link Posted: 8/13/2004 4:42:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 4:46:10 AM EST by Doctor M14]
Thanks for the info guys. I've got a friend that works for INS and he's looking for some new grips for his S&W backup gun. Since he knows I'm into guns he was asking me about a local gun shop in Orange County where he can go check out some Pachmayer or Hogue grips. Sadly I told him I didn't know where to go anymore. Turner's is pretty high on their prices and the guys behind the counter don't know squat. Maybe if my friend needed a new fishing pole Turner's would be ok. However, just like B&B I doubt the help at Turner's is going to spend any time looking through catalogs for him to find a good set of grips for his Smith. As skunkworks noted, we are just about fresh out of gunshops here in So Cal.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 4:48:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 4:50:29 AM EST by Doctor M14]
By the way, does any shop here in So Cal still sell on consignment for a reasonable fee? I've got some toys I want to clean out and Rettings won't do consignment sales. Of course if I went in and offered to sell them everything I had for 2 cents on the dollar, I'm sure a deal could be arranged.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 5:28:05 AM EST
I got my first Colt M1911 from B&E. I bought it at a gunshow in O.C. and picked it up
at his home, before he had a store.

A few years later, I heard his a-hole son was selling guns to gang-bangers out the back-door!

This limp-dick was flooding the streets with Police-only Glocks with hi-capacity mags (10+). When the Police started catching the crooks with those guns, the serial numbers were
traced right to him!

BTW...

I bought 10-12 guns from B&B over 20 years (saved about $2500-3000 total)

I was very sad when I went there to buy another and found out that there was a child-care facility
being set-up there...Santa Anita Firing Range ALSO was turned into a day-care joint!!!


Turner's service sucks...but they're the best deal going...aren't they???




If not, let me know!



Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:47:42 AM EST
as many have said, it seems like the california gun stores are quickly disappearing. turner's is just okay, and there are few local stores (also check out stockade in westminster. it is kind of small but one of the survivors in a dying breed. www.fowler-stockade.com/ ) but i think the best place to purchase anything from ammunition to actual firearms is through the internet. there are plent of good websights that sell ammo (ammo man, cheaper than dirt, etc.) and other places that sell other stuff like grips and scopes (sportsmansguide). as far as buying firearms go, i purchase through a website called www.galleryofguns.com the prices seem competitive to turners and i have purchased several rifles through them w/o a problem. the only flaw in all of this is you need an FFL. i have gotten my stuff through a guy in manhattan beach. he operates out of his house and his prices are ususally a little lower than what the website says. he does out of state transfers and private party transfers too. if you want his email address and or more info drop me an email (prisner4jc@aol.com). i think that way of going to an acutal store to purchase a firearm are gone, and it is now time to go through the local FFL.

-dan
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:52:28 AM EST
here is the info i mentioned about the FFL above...

www.davidsonsinc.com/consumers/subsites/dealer_home.asp?dealer_id=149563
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 10:20:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 7:40:09 PM EST by warlord]

Originally Posted By lonewolf223:
I got my first Colt M1911 from B&E. I bought it at a gunshow in O.C. and picked it up
at his home, before he had a store.

A few years later, I heard his a-hole son was selling guns to gang-bangers out the back-door!
.
.
.
I bought 10-12 guns from B&B over 20 years (saved about $2500-3000 total)

I was very sad when I went there to buy another and found out that there was a child-care facility
being set-up there...Santa Anita Firing Range ALSO was turned into a day-care joint!!!

Turner's service sucks...but they're the best deal going...aren't they???



If not, let me know!


The guy from B&E is doing hard time in prison from what I understand. The owner guy was in constant trouble with the "nice" folks from the BATF, though the much of his problems were of his own making.

Santa Anita Firing Range closed because the owner was offered way too much money for his part of the building. When SAFR first opened up, there was "nothing of value" in the immediate area because it was mostly light commercial mfg'ring, but over time, the area was built up, and the property values zoomed. Now there is a LOT of offices and condos in the immediate area. And the former SAFR is now a day care center part of the City of Hope Med Ctr.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 4:26:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Doctor M14:
By the way, does any shop here in So Cal still sell on consignment for a reasonable fee? I've got some toys I want to clean out and Rettings won't do consignment sales. Of course if I went in and offered to sell them everything I had for 2 cents on the dollar, I'm sure a deal could be arranged.


These folks do consignments. I don't know what their fees are, but I've bought a few consignments from them. No, I don't have any financial stake in the store, they are nice people.

Lock, Stock 'N Barrel
5928 North Temple City (about 60 yds north of Las Tunas)
Temple City, CA 91780
ph (626) 287-0051
Tues-Sat 11AM-8PM

Ask for Dona (older lady who is the owner), Steve or Bebe
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 7:51:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By DnPRK:

Originally Posted By Doctor M14:
By the way, does any shop here in So Cal still sell on consignment for a reasonable fee? I've got some toys I want to clean out and Rettings won't do consignment sales. Of course if I went in and offered to sell them everything I had for 2 cents on the dollar, I'm sure a deal could be arranged.


These folks do consignments. I don't know what their fees are, but I've bought a few consignments from them. No, I don't have any financial stake in the store, they are nice people.

Lock, Stock 'N Barrel
5928 North Temple City (about 60 yds north of Las Tunas)
Temple City, CA 91780
ph (626) 287-0051
Tues-Sat 11AM-8PM

Ask for Dona (older lady who is the owner), Steve or Bebe


Bains & Davis on Valley Blvd, San Gabriel, Calif, in the San Gabriel Valley, hours are 9a-5p Tu-Sa. Bains is mostly a repair shop, but they also do consignments. Call them for particulars on consignments.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:35:38 PM EST
Talk to Emmet at Bain & Davis - he's there on Saturdays (he's been setting up another business during the week) and he is a really decent guy.

Ted & Helene at LA Guns do a good number of consignments - move them rather fast too, but mostly for collector guns and high end - they often prefer to set the price for you too. If not a collector gun, it must be in excellent condition, especially if it is a utilitarian item like a Glock, Ruger, or basic S&W.

However, I have seen those "rare" Ravens, Brycos, Jennings, AMTs, and Davis's in mint conditon "Like New in Box" go through LA Guns on occasion! LOL!
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:07:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2004 8:08:23 AM EST by Doctor M14]
I used to deal with Bain and Davis but not anymore. Earlier this week they treated a friend of mine poorly due to their own ignorance of the law. He walked in with a Valmet M76 that needed some repair. As soon as he uncased the rifle jaws hit the floor and everyone freaked out and told him he had an "illegal" weapon. Bullshit! He bought the Valmet back in the '80s and has legally registered it under the 2000 CA AW registration nonsense. Of course that made no difference to the folks at Bain and Davis that told him they wouldn't even work on the rifle and didn't want it in their shop. Screw B&D.

By the way, yes I know Emmett and have dealt with him in the past. He is a nice guy. I don't know who my buddy talked to when he was at B&D but whoever it was they treated him like a criminal. Who needs that kind of BS from your fellow gunners?
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 9:41:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2004 7:58:28 PM EST by warlord]
Doctor M14: That is unfortunate that your friend got treated so badly. But, being a black rifle owner, you've got to endure some pain. Not everyone knows the laws in Kali-fornia because as you should already know they are pretty much arbitrary and capricous. And CalDOJ also pretty much makes up the rules as they go along. So have a heart. I would go back to Bains, and check with Emmet again, he's a real good guy to deal with. I've been going to Bains for the last 20 odd years, and they've always treated good/well.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 1:53:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By lonewolf223:
Turner's service sucks...but they're the best deal going...aren't they???




If not, let me know!






On Target in Laguna Niguel
Irons Sights in Oceanside
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 2:34:51 PM EST

The only thing they may have reacted to is that they might not be an AW licensed dealer. Not all FFL's can legally work on things in CA classified as AW under SB-23 and the prior Robert-Roos.

With that in mind, if a BATF or DOJ agent had walked in at that moment, they might have over-reacted assuming a sale or transfer of an illegal AW (or even the high-cap magazines) was taking place. Bain & Davis could lose their FFL license or at the very least, the shop closed until a hearing, which means big losses of business and income.

Consider that DOJ agents stormed Turner's in Reseda 2 years ago, simply for displaying S&W Model 60's, Glock 27, and 26 models in the counter in violation of Los Angeles's weeks-old "Ultra-Compact Handgun Ban ordinance". Employees were told to lay on the ground, the customers were forced to leave, and the store was closed for the day.

I doubt it was Emmett: he probably would have said "Oh, cool!" .

However, Martin B. Retting and L.A. Guns are both authorized AW dealers and repair shop if you need to take an AR's or AK's to them.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:22:19 PM EST
Skunkworks45: good point about dealer that are licensed and authorized to service "assualt weapons." I've forgotten about that.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:43:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Doctor M14:
By the way, does any shop here in So Cal still sell on consignment for a reasonable fee? I've got some toys I want to clean out and Rettings won't do consignment sales. Of course if I went in and offered to sell them everything I had for 2 cents on the dollar, I'm sure a deal could be arranged.



Whatchya got?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 3:08:45 PM EST
Euroarms does transfers for $45. They are on Valley Blvd in Alhambra.

The guy there told me Code 3 also closed it's doors recently.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 2:46:49 AM EST
Didn't B&B also get into some shit with the ATF for "illegally" transferring guns (AR's before they were considered "assault weapons" by the CA DOJ) to the POLICE OFFICERS that were involved in the North Hollywood shootout?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:03:19 PM EST
I'll toss this in as well. I think just wanting to get out and retire had something to do with B&B.

Oak Tree Gun Club has an OK store, great if you wanna buy a sporting shotgun.

The Firingline Range also sells guns but they don't keep stock, all are ordered. They have ranges in Burbank, Northridge and uh... somewhere south.

The Reloading Center closed this year as well, no FFL but in the industry.

Gun World in Burbank opened up about a year ago, haven't formed an opinion yet.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:55:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By BKinzey:
The Firingline Range also sells guns but they don't keep stock, all are ordered. They have ranges in Burbank, Northridge and uh... somewhere south.


The 2nd Firingline is on Imperial Hwy Brea Calif. N. Orange County.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 11:39:10 AM EST
Well it's not on Imperial but a few blocks north on Berry and it isn't a Firing Line anymore. But there is a range in Brea.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:49:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By BKinzey:
Oak Tree Gun Club has an OK store, great if you wanna buy a sporting shotgun.



That's where the EX mgr of B&B now makes his dollar.

Wasn't there a doctor or dentist in Glendale/Burbank area who did transfers and "evil-rifle" stuff out of his house? That guy always had big displays at area gun shows, lots of HK's, AR's, etc.
I think his cards said "L.A.W. Enforcement Sales" where LAW was his initials.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:07:04 PM EST
ARMS USA in Anaheim is closed but said to return soon as a Gun Club. www.50BMGstore.com
Too bad for the 50cal ban...

Last time I went to Tuan's in Rowland Hts. they were very close to closing... empty selves. That was about a month ago, so I'm sure they're closed now.

Flag Guns in La Habra is still open, but not doing well. They are on Harbor Blvd. / Lambert.
Kinda pricey, but only a few mom and pop gun stores left.

Turner's is the only cheap stores around... soon to be a monopoly.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:27:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Doctor M14:
Sorry I'm a little behind the times on this one........but I've been out of the shooting scene for a couple years. I just found out that B&B had closed down. Does anyone know what the story was there? Was it simply a matter of them going broke?

Man it's a shame what has happened to the shooting scene here in CA. I remember back in the day B&B was heaven, with evil black guns hanging from every wall.



Damn that's too bad... I have fond memories of B&B in the Valley. In the early 80's my dad use to take me, for a kid this was big deal. It was a great place, big open floor plan, high ceilings, a huge counter that wrapped around three sides, big stacks of bagged shot and accessories, safes on display on the floor, they had everything. They even use to have large taxidermy, a big grizzly and some other big game on the wall. Anyone was very nice to me and my dad seemed happy with the staff.

I went back years later to get my first gun, it had really deteriorated. The lines were long, the stock was low, the service was poor (surly really), and the prices weren’t the best. It's sad to think my home has become such a commie state in such a short time. I'd love to buy that place and make another go of it, but many of the things I would be inclined to stock are banned. Plus the red tape is a nightmare I’m sure.

By the way, they had a gunsmith "Doc" who worked on all my dad’s revolvers. He was a magician, the sweetest double action jobs anywhere.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 12:08:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 12:13:48 AM EST by Skammy]

Originally Posted By Kisara:

Originally Posted By BKinzey:
Oak Tree Gun Club has an OK store, great if you wanna buy a sporting shotgun.



That's where the EX mgr of B&B now makes his dollar.

Wasn't there a doctor or dentist in Glendale/Burbank area who did transfers and "evil-rifle" stuff out of his house? That guy always had big displays at area gun shows, lots of HK's, AR's, etc.
I think his cards said "L.A.W. Enforcement Sales" where LAW was his initials.



Dr. Larry Wolff I think it is, I think he got raided by the DOJ for selling assault weapons to police officers who forged the CLEO paper stating they could have them I believe the case was dropped..

www.lesales.com/contactus.htm

I wonder if he still does transfers..
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 12:26:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By BKinzey:
The Firingline Range also sells guns but they don't keep stock, all are ordered. They have ranges in Burbank, Northridge and uh... somewhere south.


The 2nd Firingline is on Imperial Hwy Brea Calif. N. Orange County.

wow its still there? My dad used to take me there shooting when I was kid.
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