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Posted: 1/18/2013 8:04:34 PM EDT
Hey guys...

I been trying to find a straight answer for awhile now.. And it seems there either isn't one... or my Search skills suck.

I've been collecting parts and peices for an AR Pistol build for awhile now... And almost have everything I need...

My problem is...

That like most of ARFCOM... I have a crap load of OTHER parts laying around and in the safe... Assembled rifle Lowers... Stripped "Recievers"... Etc...

What is the legality of owning a Pistol upper... When I have other assembled rifle lowers in the house... Lowers that do NOT have uppers on them?

Essentially... Is having extra stuff going to be considered intent to build an SBR and get me in a world of hurt with the .gov?

Thanks for any input... Will provide pron when things start to go together.
Link Posted: 1/18/2013 8:24:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ZMBKL_N:

What is the legality of owning a Pistol upper... When I have other assembled rifle lowers in the house... Lowers that do NOT have uppers on them?

Essentially... Is having extra stuff going to be considered intent to build an SBR and get me in a world of hurt with the .gov?

Yes, that would just give you a SBR that's been taken down. I wouldn't do that. Somewhere in my build thread there are links back to the ATF letters about it, along with commentary from the guys who know much more than I do. (That was one of my concerns when I started).

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/481456_How_much_does_it_cost_to_complete_a_stripped_lower___Now_a_pistol_build_thread__Done_Video_Pg7.html
Link Posted: 1/18/2013 8:47:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GoGop:

Originally Posted By ZMBKL_N:

What is the legality of owning a Pistol upper... When I have other assembled rifle lowers in the house... Lowers that do NOT have uppers on them?

Essentially... Is having extra stuff going to be considered intent to build an SBR and get me in a world of hurt with the .gov?

Yes, that would just give you a SBR that's been taken down. I wouldn't do that. Somewhere in my build thread there are links back to the ATF letters about it, along with commentary from the guys who know much more than I do. (That was one of my concerns when I started).

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/481456_How_much_does_it_cost_to_complete_a_stripped_lower___Now_a_pistol_build_thread__Done_Video_Pg7.html


Well CRAP...

That is the STUPIDEST thing I've heard this week.

An SBR shouldn't be an SBR until it's ASSEMBLED as an SBR. LOL... Screw this "intent" crap!

What about the legality of having other AR Rifles assembled in the house?...

If it's just the extra assembled rifle lowers... I suppose I could either strip the buffer tubes off of them... Or store them offsite at the storage unit until I find the parts to build what I want out of those.

What happens when my SBR stamps come back?... Will I be legal then?

LOL... Sorry for all the questions... This is just about as clear as MUD.

Link Posted: 1/18/2013 8:54:59 PM EDT
One thing you should know... they are fun as shit and loud!! Id wait to get your pistol lower together to assemble your upper.
Link Posted: 1/18/2013 9:06:44 PM EDT
As long as you have a dedicated pistol lower married to that upper your fine even if you have extra parts around.

It's when you have more SBR uppers than pistol lowers and no paperwork you need to start worrying.

At the same time if you have one SBR you can have as many uppers for it as you want but again not if you have a large number of complete lowers that don't have a dedicated upper laying around... that looks suspicious.

When MO passes the bill here hopefully there will be SBR's for everyone!
Link Posted: 1/18/2013 9:32:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2013 9:34:54 PM EDT by ZMBKL_N]
I actually have one Pistol Lower here and Assembled that I bought from Fantomas... So that'll be an extra Lower that I DON'T have an upper for...

But my plan for this first pistol build was to just build one of my Aeroprecision lowers as a Pistol...

Aero Lower, RRA Fluted Pistol Buffer Tube, DD QD Reciever Endplate, DPMS LPK w/ Geiselle 3Gun Trigger instead of stock junk, and KNS Pins in this lower build.

Upper is going to be Square marked upper RX with "T" Marks, 7.5" WOA Stainless 1-7 Barrel, Daniels Defense Light 7" Quad, Noveske KX3 Pig Flash Hider, Phase 5 BCG (Probably trade this for chrome when I find somebody willing), Mod 4 BCM charging handle, Troy Micro BUIS set, and Probably an Aimpoint Micro.

Sent off 2 Form 1's for SBR Stamps last week... But who knows how long those will take...

So basically... As long as I have the Pistol upper on a Pistol Lower... Things are fine. Just don't have the upper laying around with other rifle / SBR lowers until I get my tax stamps correct? Ohh... And never have MORE SBR / Pistol uppers laying around than SBR / Pistol Lowers correct?
Link Posted: 1/18/2013 10:54:54 PM EDT
I think as long as you have another lower receiver that you are building on your good. You just don't a bunch of pistol/sbr uppers laying around and just one lower, assembled as a rifle.

The only other thing you need is AMMO! My 7.5 inch loves mag dumps!
Link Posted: 1/18/2013 11:01:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zombiekiller131:
I think as long as you have another lower receiver that you are building on your good. You just don't a bunch of pistol/sbr uppers laying around and just one lower, assembled as a rifle.

The only other thing you need is AMMO! My 7.5 inch loves mag dumps!


LOL... I'd be lying if I said this wasn't one of the items I'm most excited about...

I been watching youtube vids of similar builds throwing huge fireballs.... Makes me grin every time!
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 3:11:47 AM EDT
They are a loud flamethrower
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 4:22:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 4:26:15 AM EDT by cbr954]
When you say "assembled rifle lower", what exactly do you mean by that?

A lower with a stock that has never had a barreled upper of 16" or greater attached, is NOT a rifle. It is still to be transferred as other.

Having a AR pistol and an extra upper for it while owning a AR rifle is NOT posession of a sbr. I understand how people can be uneasy about it but you can have spare parts. Now I wouldn't go crazy with five short uppers with only one stripped, pistol, or non rifle lowers.


Any pistol may be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol. You may not go from rifle to pistol unless the firearm started as a pistol.
So if every build starts as a pistol, it gives you more options.

I'm sure many will disagree but not to long ago I posted links supporting what I have said.

Oh, it is also perfectly legal to use any recwiver extension tube you want, so long as the stack body is removed.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 4:55:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 4:57:43 AM EDT by ZMBKL_N]
Originally Posted By cbr954:
When you say "assembled rifle lower", what exactly do you mean by that?

A lower with a stock that has never had a barreled upper of 16" or greater attached, is NOT a rifle. It is still to be transferred as other.

Having a AR pistol and an extra upper for it while owning a AR rifle is NOT posession of a sbr. I understand how people can be uneasy about it but you can have spare parts. Now I wouldn't go crazy with five short uppers with only one stripped, pistol, or non rifle lowers.


Any pistol may be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol. You may not go from rifle to pistol unless the firearm started as a pistol.
So if every build starts as a pistol, it gives you more options.

I'm sure many will disagree but not to long ago I posted links supporting what I have said.

Oh, it is also perfectly legal to use any recwiver extension tube you want, so long as the stack body is removed.


Interesting stuff to know there... Anything I have that is not CURRENTLY assembled as a rifle has never actually had an upper attached... So I guess everything I have is still a "reciever" in the eyes of the ATF.

As for a pistol being able to go back to a rifle... Isn't this one of those grey areas?... I mean... who's to say my recievers were actually built first as a pistol... Then changed to rifle / SBR? What actually qualifies as a Pistol... Does screwing the Pistol Buffer tube into the RX mean it's now a pistol... Or Does it have to be married to a Pistol upper to become a Pistol?

Or am I forgetting something? Like... Is a Pistol lower supposed to be engraved as such?... I thought that just applied to SBRs.

LOTS of troublesome stuff in this whole "whats legal and whats not" problem.

Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:49:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:52:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:57:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eric10mm:

Originally Posted By ZMBKL_N:

Essentially... Is having extra stuff going to be considered intent to build an SBR and get me in a world of hurt with the .gov?

Thanks for any input... Will provide pron when things start to go together.

Technically, legally, that could be considered as "constructive intent". However, unless you somehow bring their hairy eyeball's scrutiny upon you how would anyone ever know? Despite all the gun site fervor about CI, has anyone ever been charged with it?

IMO, don't do anything stupid and you should be fine. Plenty of SBR owners have spare uppers laying around that could be placed on a non NFA-registered lower.


And this is pretty much how I think I'm going to handle this situation...

Once my SBR stamps come in it should be darned obvious I've done everything I can to stay within' the bounds of the law...

Like I said though... Constructive Intent is freakin' retarded... It shouldn't be illegal until you actually attach the wrong upper to the wrong lower... That would make ALL of this so much simpler.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:57:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eric10mm:

Originally Posted By cbr954:

A lower with a stock that has never had a barreled upper of 16" or greater attached, is NOT a rifle. It is still to be transferred as other.
Since "pistols" cannot have a stock I was under the impression that once a (rifle) stock is attached to a lower it becomes a rifle lower.


This was the impression I was under as well.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:10:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 6:12:44 AM EDT by cbr954]
Originally Posted By ZMBKL_N:
Originally Posted By cbr954:
When you say "assembled rifle lower", what exactly do you mean by that?

A lower with a stock that has never had a barreled upper of 16" or greater attached, is NOT a rifle. It is still to be transferred as other.

Having a AR pistol and an extra upper for it while owning a AR rifle is NOT posession of a sbr. I understand how people can be uneasy about it but you can have spare parts. Now I wouldn't go crazy with five short uppers with only one stripped, pistol, or non rifle lowers.


Any pistol may be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol. You may not go from rifle to pistol unless the firearm started as a pistol.
So if every build starts as a pistol, it gives you more options.

I'm sure many will disagree but not to long ago I posted links supporting what I have said.

Oh, it is also perfectly legal to use any recwiver extension tube you want, so long as the stack body is removed.


Interesting stuff to know there... Anything I have that is not CURRENTLY assembled as a rifle has never actually had an upper attached... So I guess everything I have is still a "reciever" in the eyes of the ATF.

As for a pistol being able to go back to a rifle... Isn't this one of those grey areas?... I mean... who's to say my recievers were actually built first as a pistol... Then changed to rifle / SBR? What actually qualifies as a Pistol... Does screwing the Pistol Buffer tube into the RX mean it's now a pistol... Or Does it have to be married to a Pistol upper to become a Pistol?

Or am I forgetting something? Like... Is a Pistol lower supposed to be engraved as such?... I thought that just applied to SBRs.

LOTS of troublesome stuff in this whole "whats legal and whats not" problem.




You are correct. Any receiver you have, stock or not, that has never been previously assembled as a rifle, may be built into a pistol. The ONLY possible caveat could be, how did the dealer transfer it. That however may or may not have any weight of law because the definition of what a rifle is can not be changed by something being transferred incorrectly. See this discussion on the topic.

For the issue of pistol ---> rifle ---> pistol. That used to be a no no except for one specific firearm that had a court case over it. The ATF has since issued a new ruling that covers the issue as well as the issue of having extra or spare parts. There has been MUCH discussion on it and the actual language takes a few readings to really grasp. Bing ATF ruling 2011-4.

For "when" a receiver becomes a pistol, I would maintain the same criteria applies as to when a receiver becomes a rifle. For a pistol that would be when a barreled upper of LESS than sixteen inches is attached WITHOUT a stock.

Having receivers that COULD be assembled into a rifle OR a pistol and having a unattached barreled upper of sixteen inches or greater, no more creates a a rifle than having receivers that COULD be assembled into a rifle or a pistol and having unattached barreled uppers of less than sixteen inches creates a pistol OR a SBR. Read the ruling.... Now if you have nothing but "rifles" and a barreled upper of sixteen inches or less, then that barreled upper has no useful purpose other than to create a SBR. If you only owned one receiver and built it as a pistol but then also bought a barreled upper greater than sixteen inches and a stock, you would have the legal ability to convert from pistol to rifle and back. In that scenario, when your receiver is legally assembled as a rifle but you still have the barreled upper less than sixteen inches, is that a sbr? Absolutely not.

I am not a lawyer and nothing I have said should be taken as legal advice.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:46:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thefreshman991:
As long as you have a dedicated pistol lower married to that upper your fine even if you have extra parts around.

It's when you have more SBR uppers than pistol lowers and no paperwork you need to start worrying.

At the same time if you have one SBR you can have as many uppers for it as you want but again not if you have a large number of complete lowers that don't have a dedicated upper laying around... that looks suspicious.

When MO passes the bill here hopefully there will be SBR's for everyone!


Umm... what bill?
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 11:12:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blister64:
Originally Posted By thefreshman991:
As long as you have a dedicated pistol lower married to that upper your fine even if you have extra parts around.

It's when you have more SBR uppers than pistol lowers and no paperwork you need to start worrying.

At the same time if you have one SBR you can have as many uppers for it as you want but again not if you have a large number of complete lowers that don't have a dedicated upper laying around... that looks suspicious.

When MO passes the bill here hopefully there will be SBR's for everyone!


Umm... what bill?


This!!! Please elaborate!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 5:31:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MDRoberts:
Originally Posted By Blister64:
Originally Posted By thefreshman991:


When MO passes the bill here hopefully there will be SBR's for everyone!


Umm... what bill?


This!!! Please elaborate!!!!!!!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/510460_Yay_Missouri_.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/509831_Call_Your_State_Rep_Now__Firearm_Protection_Legislation_.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/510764_Missouri_is_on_board__Sorry_if_dupe_.html
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 5:38:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ZMBKL_N:
Originally Posted By Zombiekiller131:
I think as long as you have another lower receiver that you are building on your good. You just don't a bunch of pistol/sbr uppers laying around and just one lower, assembled as a rifle.

The only other thing you need is AMMO! My 7.5 inch loves mag dumps!


LOL... I'd be lying if I said this wasn't one of the items I'm most excited about...

I been watching youtube vids of similar builds throwing huge fireballs.... Makes me grin every time!


I thought that's what you got the 5.7 for Are you feeling any better?

Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:11:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2013 9:12:34 AM EDT by ErikO]
The real shenanigans starts when you build a pistol, swap the upper for a 16"+ barreled upper and add a stock. You can then remove the stock and swap the sub-16" barreled upper back on and have broken no rules or laws...

The stock has to go on last and come off first.

Yes, this is dumb. Yes, I have verified with the ATF Tech that this is accurate.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 12:33:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ErikO:
The real shenanigans starts when you build a pistol, swap the upper for a 16"+ barreled upper and add a stock. You can then remove the stock and swap the sub-16" barreled upper back on and have broken no rules or laws...

The stock has to go on last and come off first.

Yes, this is dumb. Yes, I have verified with the ATF Tech that this is accurate.


Again... Some of these rules are pretty stupid. LOL

Thanks for all the input though guys... I think I know how to handle things now... Which is to not have too many short barreled uppers laying around till I have an adequate number of SBR / Pistol Lowers also.

Link Posted: 1/21/2013 4:37:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GoGop:

Originally Posted By MDRoberts:
Originally Posted By Blister64:
Originally Posted By thefreshman991:


When MO passes the bill here hopefully there will be SBR's for everyone!


Umm... what bill?


This!!! Please elaborate!!!!!!!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/510460_Yay_Missouri_.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/509831_Call_Your_State_Rep_Now__Firearm_Protection_Legislation_.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/510764_Missouri_is_on_board__Sorry_if_dupe_.html


It is my understanding that even if this bill passes, it will not retroactively nullify existing federal firearms law like the NFA. I'm no legal expert, but the bills language refers to any federal legislation passed after 1/1/2013.
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