Washington state is not what it used to be.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:    For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends. We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Quoted: What happened in 1777?

Major advance in whisky production.

You know what happened next......

Quoted: You know what happened next......

The revolutionary war kicked into high gear, ticonderoga and valley forge gave birth to a mature army.

I sadly have to agree with a friend of mine who warned me before I relocated here.    The alert was about WA State not being serious anyways because hippies took this place over since the 60s.    The past election just reassured that... too bad becasue it is a very nice place and has some very good people.

Quoted: I sadly have to agree with a friend of mine who warned me before I relocated here.    The alert was about WA State not being serious anyways because hippies took this place over since the 60s.    The past election just reassured that... too bad becasue it is a very nice place and has some very good people.

Those damn thieves are holding up the entire state. That's why they want to ban guns. Fear of retribution and loss of income.

Let us remember that it is one county that is the root of all that is evil in our state.  Olympia is just an outpost.

There was no Washington State in 1776

Lewis and Clark wandered through the area that is the Northwest in 1805

Quoted: There was no Washington State in 1776 Lewis and Clark wandered through the area that is the Northwest in 1805

There was no piece of paper that some politicians drafted to declare the area a state, but I have reason to believe that the ground was here already. I mean, they mapped it in 1805, right? Something must have been here. If there was nothing here, they would have gotten really wet, right?

Quoted: Quoted: There was no Washington State in 1776 Lewis and Clark wandered through the area that is the Northwest in 1805 There was no piece of paper that some politicians drafted to declare the area a state, but I have reason to believe that the ground was here already. I mean, they mapped it in 1805, right? Something must have been here. If there was nothing here, they would have gotten really wet, right?

Yeap. the land was here but it wasn't Washington State was it?

Washington state is not what it used to be.

BTW I bet they got really wet anyway, it must have rained all of the time here way back then too.

Quoted: Washington state is not what it used to be. IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, .

It only included those original thirteen... everyone else be damned.

Quoted: Quoted: Washington state is not what it used to be. IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, It only included those original thirteen... everyone else be damned.

Your reading comprehension differs from mine.
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Washington state is not what it used to be. IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, It only included those original thirteen... everyone else be damned.

Your reading comprehension differs from mine.
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[/quote]

If you are saying that the declaration of independence was made to be applicable to every man under creation, you are saying that the declaration should've been applied to all the countries in Europe, Communist China, and all the rest of the entire planet....  

No, it was for the 13 united states.  We weren't trying to enforce rules or rights to people we had no control over.  We were escaping empirical rule, not trying to create another empire.

Besides that, what about the women?  What about the slaves?  Yeah, those were great times...

Quoted: No, it was for the 13 united states.  We weren't trying to enforce rules or rights to people we had no control over.  We were escaping empirical rule, not trying to create another empire. Besides that, what about the women?  What about the slaves?  Yeah, those were great times...

The documents now speak for the 50 states. We got the country up to speed regarding women and slaves, against the prevailing european customs. That was then, this is now. We all have the right to vote, as do the decendants of the slaves. Now you get  to find out that living in a free country is damned hard and there are no guarantees of protection or success. For many of us, the government works hard to limit our opportunities and success, while promoting the advancement of people based on some uncontrollable difference between us.

Regardless of our history, I've had to deal with cultural and government imposed ceilings my entire working life. I can't look back and say that most Americans have been very kind to me. There are a few exceptions, whom I cherish. As a Vietnam Veteran, I've had many more people go out of their way to diminish me, than I have friends. It was that way for a long time, after that war. I'm putting a lot of effort into seeing that this generation of fighters doesn't suffer the same fate. They sacrifice more and should be guaranteed an opportunity to drink from the cup of plenty.

You have to re-affirm your values everyday, as there is always somebody trying to bring you into their control to further their agenda.

The Bill of Rights are not negotiable.

Welcome. Nice to have you in the discussions.

Quoted: Besides that, what about the women?  What about the slaves?  Yeah, those were great times...

Must not scare her off yet................

Quoted: Quoted: Besides that, what about the women?  What about the slaves?  Yeah, those were great times... Must not scare her off yet................hr

YET!?   If I wasn't scared off by the scary visage of all your mugs at that "get together" phil_in_seattle dragged me to....  you should know I dont scare easy.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Besides that, what about the women?  What about the slaves?  Yeah, those were great times... Must not scare her off yet................ YET!?   If I wasn't scared off by the scary visage of all your mugs at that "get together" phil_in_seattle dragged me to....  you should know I dont scare easy.

Point well taken.

Nomex on.

1) What about the women? When the women were home the children were raised, not hellions that need to be exterminated at age 15 because their only education is at school, by their peers or liberal teachers. They were raised by a parent with their familys values and morals and standards, and had expectations and a vested interest int he childs future. Nowdays the woman is a supporting paycheck to a better lifestyle. Or is it? And at what cost?


2) And what about the slaves? If slavery was legal I would own a couple today. (Think a pair,  one Britney, one Tyra), and anyone who says they wouldnt is a liar. Maybe its to themselves, but a liar nonetheless.

If there is any difference between renting a third world housekeeper at sub minimum wage and owning a slave, I dont see it. In fact I would imagine some slaves would be treated a lot better than some people treat said housekeepers. It depends on the boss.



BTW, My second position is a perennial barnburner at my family gatherings. Damn there are a few of them that flat lose it on that one. My Aunt, the former Black Panther, good Doctor being the biggest dissenting vote.

A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference. Thomas Jefferson

Once again America is an ideal not a geographic boundry, it was the hopes of the founders to export the freedom and liberty of America to all the world, you must also differentiate between the founders and framers, the first group were anti-federalists in favor of small decentralized government, the second group were federalist and designed a giant central government, the anti-federalists were against slavery and fought against it, the second group fedralists incorporated slavery into the CONstitution.

grow beyond the indoctrination of the public fool system and learn the truth.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Besides that, what about the women?  What about the slaves?  Yeah, those were great times... Must not scare her off yet................ YET!?   If I wasn't scared off by the scary visage of all your mugs at that "get together" phil_in_seattle dragged me to....  you should know I dont scare easy. Point well taken. Nomex on. 1) What about the women? When the women were home the children were raised, not hellions that need to be exterminated at age 15 because their only education is at school, by their peers or liberal teachers. They were raised by a parent with their familys values and morals and standards, and had expectations and a vested interest int he childs future. Nowdays the woman is a supporting paycheck to a better lifestyle. Or is it? And at what cost? 2) And what about the slaves? If slavery was legal I would own a couple today. (Think a pair,  one Britney, one Tyra), and anyone who says they wouldnt is a liar. Maybe its to themselves, but a liar nonetheless. If there is any difference between renting a third world housekeeper at sub minimum wage and owning a slave, I dont see it. In fact I would imagine some slaves would be treated a lot better than some people treat said housekeepers. It depends on the boss. BTW, My second position is a perennial barnburner at my family gatherings. Damn there are a few of them that flat lose it on that one. My Aunt, the former Black Panther, good Doctor being the biggest dissenting vote.

First I want to say, I AM one of those teachers raising your kids for you and I'm not happy about it.  Since most of the time, teachers aren't held in any esteem by their students, the moral lessons we impart (Johnny, stop pulling Jenny's hair, that hurts her) aren't respected.  It just doesn't work.  We are not their parents, it's not that kids are being taught crappy morals, it's that they aren't being taught morals at all.  Add that to the fact that 60% of out kids are brought up in broken homes.  The whole situation sucks, but don't blame it on the teachers.  I have a subject to teach and when I have to teach Mr. Joe Schmo's kid how to sit in a chair and listen, it hinders the education of the entire class.  That is not my job, but it is something forced upon me.

And since When has it been the woman's SOLE responsibility to raise the child?  Not even in the 1500's was it like that.  Men are passin the buck too.

As for your second point, whenever and wherever slavery has been legal, there have always been people who thought it was wrong and refused to own slaves, ALWAYS.  

A second job of mine that I do one day a week is to be a cleaning lady.  We get far above minimum wage.  In fact, I get better pay as a cleaning lady than as a teacher if you do an hour to hour comparison.  Regardless, any job that you can quit, is not slavery.  In slavery you get raped by your master as due course, you get beaten for showing any insubordination or for lagging behind, or if your master is just plain pissy that morning. In slavery your family gets sold off to the highest bidder and shipped away to where you will never see them again.

Minimum wage is a far cry from slavery.

Quoted: First I want to say, I AM one of those teachers raising your kids for you and I'm not happy about it.

Hated kids even when I was a kid, wouldnt dare make on. And oen like me?

Since most of the time, teachers aren't held in any esteem by their students, the moral lessons we impart (Johnny, stop pulling Jenny's hair, that hurts her) aren't respected.

Thank you for a thankless job. Teachers arent held in much esteem by anyone period, except each other. I know when I was a kid any respect they would have got for being an adult was diminished by their passive nature and attitude, now known to me as being a kumbaya liberal.

It just doesn't work.  We are not their parents, it's not that kids are being taught crappy morals, it's that they aren't being taught morals at all.

My point exactly.

Add that to the fact that 60% of out kids are brought up in broken homes.  The whole situation sucks, but don't blame it on the teachers.

I didnt either. I blamed it on women in the workplace. Or men tolerating it.

I have a subject to teach and when I have to teach Mr. Joe Schmo's kid how to sit in a chair and listen, it hinders the education of the entire class.  That is not my job, but it is something forced upon me.

And that sucks. But Sally soccermom has the school board hostage and now you have to keep Johnnys disturbing ass in your class, with no corporal punishment or any other types of punishment. I see another fine mess the liberal agenda has got us into.

And since When has it been the woman's SOLE responsibility to raise the child?  Not even in the 1500's was it like that.

It was on both sides of my family for generations. Ther men worked and the women worked the house. And the kids. Was yours different??

Men are passin the buck too.

Its actually the men who have this whole thing as fubar'ed as it is now.

As for your second point, whenever and wherever slavery has been legal, there have always been people who thought it was wrong and refused to own slaves, ALWAYS.

Conceded.

A second job of mine that I do one day a week is to be a cleaning lady.  We get far above minimum wage.  In fact, I get better pay as a cleaning lady than as a teacher if you do an hour to hour comparison.  Regardless, any job that you can quit, is not slavery.

I believe my quote was "third world housekeeper at sub minimum wage". The native born ones are a rarity, location a factor, and indeed cost a lot more. Having done neither, I would speculate the jobs may be similar, but the conditions drastically different.

In slavery you get raped by your master as due course, you get beaten for showing any insubordination or for lagging behind, or if your master is just plain pissy that morning. In slavery your family gets sold off to the highest bidder and shipped away to where you will never see them again.

And we all know a "third world housekeeper at sub minimum wage" would never be coerced, raped, beaten or sold off. And all slaves dont get raped nor beaten nro sold off.

Minimum wage is a far cry from slavery.

I would think not. Actually slavery might be better.

To me raising a child is a team effort between the parents. If a couple decides the woman should raise the child, so be it. If a man finds his child is not being raise properly, it's on his head to make it right. If a child is being neglected, it's both parents' fault.

Following a course of action merely because 'it's the way things have always been done' is foolish. You should follow a course of action because it is the best course of action to follow.

Slavery is wrong, partly because it violates the whole 'created equal, unalienable rights to life, liberty, & pursuit of happiness thing.' Slaves do not have a choice in the matter. Third world housekeepers have a choice. If they are mistreated, they can quit. If they don't, that is their choice.

I'd like to hear your case, how would slavery be better? What would stop you or me, or anyone from becoming a slave? Certainly you are not advocating basing slavery on a class of people or a race, are you?

~Icarus

George Washington Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.

It has always been about right verses wrong but peoples opinions of what is right often contradict according to what  their basis of morality is.

There is a natural order established by the Creator.

Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,

O.K. I have to chime in here,  I am a father of four and one on the way, I was raised with the expectation that I would take responsability for my actions, face the consquenses and would do what was right no matter the cost to myself.  My wife and I were highschool sweethearts and our first child was born when we were 17,  and I swore right then and there to God Almighty that NO ONE ELSE would raise my children EVER.  At that age, unfortunatley  I seem to be the exception not the rule in our country but because of my upbringing I took on that responsability instead of running from it.  It helped emensely that we were (and still are) very much in love. Through it all we always had eachother, even when we lived in a cockroach infested studio apt because it was all we could afford while we finnished school, but because of my upbringing I accepted the consequenses of my actions and did not leave.  Know where I learned all this responsibility from?  My MOM who was a stay at home mom who also ran a sucessfull daycare out of our house to make the grocery bills, 'till my sisters and I were out of high school.  

 Now 12 years and four kids later Tina and I are still together,  happily married working as a team,  my wife used to work as a pharmacy technition, for the local VA hosital till they found out she was prgnant with Emily, and out of the blue decided not to renew her contract.. She was makeing good money but felt out of touch with our children and myself because she was at work when I had the kids and I was at work when she had them,   All that changed when Emily was born,  now more than a year later Tina (my wife) works our home and runs the day to day stuff, suprisingly we are happier together and our children are more mannered, stronger in their convictions, and faith because she is home to reinforce those values. Our children know the value of a dollar and the hard work that it takes to earn one but more than that they know the value in the work itself and take some pride in a job well done.  
    We don't have some of the things that most people take for granted like cable or satalite TV we don't go out to dinner more than once or twice a year, we don't order out for pizza or chinese, I don't drive a nice newer car, she dosen't go out and buy a new outfit four times a month, and my work boots have to last at least two years befor they get replaced. To my mind  the problem in our nation isn't nessesarly with just the liberal part of our government, it is with the lazy, a-morel, easy-way-out people of our society, both the so-called men and and women who are just girls grown taller.  
     Being an at home mother is probobly one of the most demanding and tough jobs ever created-if it is done right.  I for one would n't want to do it. every day she takes care of all of us, fixes cuts does laundry, cooks dinner, cleans up after four kids, comes up with the weekly menue, shops for groceries, manages the money and still has time to love on me  all the while being six month prgnant, i go to work 12 to 14 hours a day and bring my pay to her to disperse and you know what?  it works, and works well.  this set up is time tested and Good lord approved.  
     My wife is also of the opinion that if more women got out of the work-place and into the home allowing and encourageing  the men to work by freeing up jobs that it would encourage responsability and enjender pride on the part of the dads out their.  She belives through that pride and responsability alot of our apathy and "do what feels good instead of what is right" facets of our society would shrink down to nill.

       Sadly most americans IMHO  have forgotten how to work hard, handle responsability and take pride in hard work, most Americans don't take the time to teach their offspring the intrinsic value in the work itself.  Most americans are too preocupied with getting the newest, brightest, wiz bang, stuff, the biggest house the coolest car and the latest fashion and are not focusing on what is truly important, Family, Friends, Community and the relationships that we build through-out our lives that are realy the things that sustain us.  

The liberal/sociolist element in our government is just a symptom of a greater problem that lies within  most of the people of our nation. Alot of our people deep down inside belive that everything is owed to them, just because they are Americans, not because they earned it, not because they built it , and not because they contibuted to the past greatness of our nation. they are living off the sweat and blood of our forefathers, blissfully unaware of the sacrifices they endured to get us to the place we are today.  the liberal/sociolist elements in our government and our meida encouage this behavior because it is what gives them power over us as a people, keep the people fat, happy and stupid and they will vote away their very freedom, as they have already givven up their liberty.  give them free credit with virtualy no limit so they can chain themselves to the banks and credit card company and we as a people do it.  Give them government programs to help get them on their feet in troubled times -but they have to break up their familys to be elegable for it.  tell them they deserve everything and they believe it. But at all cost hide the pricetag, because on that tag is says, $ FREEDOM, FAMILY, LIBERTY$ If that is the cost of being a MODERN AMERICAN I for one want no part of it.


jeez, that was a rant sorry



.

Quoted: jeez, that was a rant sorry.

And I enjoyed reading every bit of it    Well said, .

Quoted: Quoted: jeez, that was a rant sorry. And I enjoyed reading every bit of it    Well said, .

I never thought that I would agree with strat, but  

+1

Quoted: jeez, that was a rant sorry masterpiece

You are living what raised the responsibile among us, you are raising what will be the creme of the next crop, you are doing not what feels good, but what is good. You have the best of the best.

Send me an IM so I can buy you and your family a nice pizza dinner!
5 kids...dude, STOP it already!

Quoted: ...we don't order out for pizza or chinese, I don't drive a nice newer car...

Quoted: Cool post MackUSMC. If we ever meet, the first round is on me.

You did meet at the last shoot.

Quoted: ETA Wait, was this the man from Eastern Wa?

Quoted:        Sadly most americans IMHO  have forgotten how to work hard, handle responsability and take pride in hard work, most Americans don't take the time to teach their offspring the intrinsic value in the work itself.  Most americans are too preocupied with getting the newest, brightest, wiz bang, stuff, the biggest house the coolest car and the latest fashion and are not focusing on what is truly important, Family, Friends, Community and the relationships that we build through-out our lives that are realy the things that sustain us.

WOW Mack thats one hell of a RANT, and a good one. You set one really good example.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: jeez, that was a rant sorry. And I enjoyed reading every bit of it    Well said, . I never thought that I would agree with strat, but   +1

+1.  Very well said.   I was also raised under the basic principle that duties come before rights, that is, rights are earned through hard work, responsibility and accountability.    Unfortunately things seems to have turned upside down by folks who think rights come above everything.   This weekend's Seattle Times had an interesting article about how the US general population is spending more than they earn and is getting completely screwed and, of course, will drag everyone else down with them.

As my father (now in his 60s) use to say... the World came to a crossroads and it seems it's taken the road to its end.  

Mack....

WOW!

[cheers]