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Posted: 6/1/2008 7:53:21 PM EST
Does anyone have a copy of the document from the Wisconsin DNR stating that hunting whitetails/biggame in WI is legal with a suppressor that they would be willing to share? It says in the "WI EE, legal" post that Photoman has a copy from P Tom Van Haren. Mr. Van Haren returned my phone call and left a voice message with the same response, but I would like to have a document on hand with my trust copies while hunting so if I am questioned I have paperwork.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

J
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 8:28:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 3:17:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2008 3:18:09 AM EST by FMD]

Originally Posted By johnshiredman:
Does anyone have a copy of the document from the Wisconsin DNR stating that hunting whitetails/biggame in WI is legal with a suppressor that they would be willing to share? It says in the "WI EE, legal" post that Photoman has a copy from P Tom Van Haren. Mr. Van Haren returned my phone call and left a voice message with the same response, but I would like to have a document on hand with my trust copies while hunting so if I am questioned I have paperwork.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

J


IM Photoman, and he should be able to hook you up.


BTW: Welcome!
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 5:38:48 AM EST
i just have a printed out copy of the emails, the one I sent him and the one he sent me back.

Remember just because you have it in writing doesn't mean you can't have issues. I've had two runin's with DNR with a can on my gun hunting. One guy guy was cool with just the printed emails, the other called to check before letting me go on my way. Neither of them were dicks about it either but they were not familiar with the legality of it either.


I think perhaps we need a little push to try and get them to put that in the regulations book.

Anybody up for a small firemission??
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 1:01:01 PM EST
The simple fact that it is not prohibited in ANY regulation should be enough???
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 1:29:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
The simple fact that it is not prohibited in ANY regulation should be enough???


No, unfortunatly it's not. To many people forget that laws are meant to tell us what not to do, and provide punishment for doing those things. Many people today however seem to think you have to have a law that says you can do something as well. Thats part of the problem with open carry and why so many people don't believe it's legal, even when you tell them there is no law against it. CCW laws go to further the idea that you need a law to tell you what you can do, even when it's already a constitutionally protected right.

Most people do NOT believe it's legal to hunt with a can, and most will not until they see it in the reg book. The wording should also be changed to show that a registered SBR or SBS can also be used legally for hunting.

Link Posted: 6/2/2008 5:03:48 PM EST
Question I've also wondered is the use of a suppressor with a SBR. Regs say a barrel legnth of 16 inches is required of a rifle to hunt with it. A suppressor ATTACHED to a SBR will give that legnth requirement. The various Wardens I've discussed it with got a blank look when I asked them, and I could see the wheels turning as they mentally went down the laws they knew, but none have been able to get me an answer.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 5:15:54 PM EST
theres no law against using a legal sbr.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 5:54:45 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By photoman:
i just have a printed out copy of the emails, the one I sent him and the one he sent me back.

Remember just because you have it in writing doesn't mean you can't have issues. I've had two runin's with DNR with a can on my gun hunting. One guy guy was cool with just the printed emails, the other called to check before letting me go on my way. Neither of them were dicks about it either but they were not familiar with the legality of it either.



Good to hear that your experiences have been good thus far. Do you still have the email on file? If so, would you be willing to forward to johanknechtsw@hotmail.com
or do you have the email address for Tom Van Haren?

Thanks,
J
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 6:42:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2008 6:43:36 PM EST by Interceptor_Knight]

Originally Posted By chwi548:
Regs say a barrel legnth of 16 inches is required of a rifle to hunt with it. .


The handbook is not a formal list of actual regs. The handbook makes a general statement that a rifle barrel must be 16". This is a general broad statement which does not take into account NFA registered firearms. If you look at the actual administrative code, no such statute exists stating that you may not hunt with a SBR or a can. Every DNR agent I have spoken to agrees that no such statute exists. You can not be lawfully charged with a violation to a statute which does not exists. What are they going to charge you with???????????? Certainly not disorderly conduct...
The 1 single thing listed for rifles other than caliber is that it may not be full auto. I believe that there is a statute referring specifically to an 18" shotgun barrel though.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 4:16:22 AM EST
I like the idea of useing a Can to hunt...

and as far as the law go's...Its fine..

Just thinking about it gives me the Idea of using a Flame thrower for gun deer season..
That would bring a whole new understanding to the acronym
MRE.

LOL
J.P.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 8:56:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By chwi548:
Regs say a barrel legnth of 16 inches is required of a rifle to hunt with it. .


The handbook is not a formal list of actual regs. The handbook makes a general statement that a rifle barrel must be 16". This is a general broad statement which does not take into account NFA registered firearms. If you look at the actual administrative code, no such statute exists stating that you may not hunt with a SBR or a can. Every DNR agent I have spoken to agrees that no such statute exists. You can not be lawfully charged with a violation to a statute which does not exists. What are they going to charge you with???????????? Certainly not disorderly conduct...
The 1 single thing listed for rifles other than caliber is that it may not be full auto. I believe that there is a statute referring specifically to an 18" shotgun barrel though.


None that I have found.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 12:01:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By photoman:
None that I have found.


Just a quick look, a rifled barreled shotgun MUST be 18" in length and 10/12/16/20/28 to be considered a shotgun to hunt deer or bear. That means that a rifled barrel SBS can NOT be used in shotgun only areas.

NR10.001 Definitions (23s)
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 2:31:42 PM EST
As long as we are talking about legal barrel lengths...let me bounce this off you guys and see what you think. (I know this is an AR forum, but this is still within the context of our barrel length discussion.) I am getting a quick detach can so that I can have the mount put on my 15" encore pistol barrel. With the mount, the barrel will be over 16"... and I am going to have it welded permanently to the barrel. Then when my kids are a little older and I start to teach them gun safety and shooting form, I will be able to put a rifle stock on my pistol frame and have a legal compact single shot suppressed rifle for them to learn with. (I have the Encore pistol because part of the area I hunt in is shotgun only...but you can use a pistol.)

I have read debates on the legality of switching between pistol grip and rifle butt stock of an Encore "Pistol" frame (meaning it was purchased from a dealer as a registered pistol) and my dealer tells me the Thompson/Center clause allows to switch an Encore pistol frame between a pistol and rifle (as long as you have a legal length barrel of course).

Any thoughts on legality of extending the legal length of the barrel by permanently welding the quick detach mount to the barrel?

Link Posted: 6/3/2008 2:44:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 2:45:44 PM EST by photoman]

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By photoman:
None that I have found.


Just a quick look, a rifled barreled shotgun MUST be 18" in length and 10/12/16/20/28 to be considered a shotgun to hunt deer or bear. That means that a rifled barrel SBS can NOT be used in shotgun only areas.

NR10.001 Definitions (23s)


I'll have to check that out when I get home.

johnshiredman I'll dig up the emails and forward them.

Link Posted: 6/3/2008 3:46:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 3:47:51 PM EST by FMD]

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By photoman:
None that I have found.


Just a quick look, a rifled barreled shotgun MUST be 18" in length and 10/12/16/20/28 to be considered a shotgun to hunt deer or bear. That means that a rifled barrel SBS can NOT be used in shotgun only areas.

NR10.001 Definitions (23s)


I know it's convoluted, but look at the actual text. Basically, it's trying to clarify that you cannot use a .410 for deer and bear, not that SBS are prohibited.


(23s) “Shotgun” means a smoothbore barrelled firearm
designed to shoot pellets.
Rifled shotgun barrels of at least 18 in
length are considered to be shotguns for the purpose of hunting
deer or bear if they fire a single projectile and are of the following
gauges: 10, 12, 16, 20, 28.


SBSs are fine, even for deer or bear hunting.

Rifled shotguns in a caliber larger than .410 that happen to be 18" or more are not considered rifles by the DNR, and are thus legal for deer and bear.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 5:13:33 PM EST
Really what the hell is this obsession to use SBR's and suppressors for hunting? Seriously its not worth the hassle.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 6:36:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rob940:
Really what the hell is this obsession to use SBR's and suppressors for hunting? Seriously its not worth the hassle.


wow please refrain from posting
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 6:49:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 4:37:10 AM EST by dalesimpson]
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 8:11:58 AM EST
THanks Kramer for keeping the Gomer stereotype alive about for ar owners.

Now please refrain from breathing.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 8:29:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 8:30:14 AM EST by photoman]

Originally Posted By Rob940:
Really what the hell is this obsession to use SBR's and suppressors for hunting? Seriously its not worth the hassle.


Whats the hassle?

And thanks for injecting that lil bit of FUDD into this thread. no hunting thread is complete without some type of FUDD comment.

Seriously, it may not be your thing, and if it's not then why even open your mouth and say something.

It is wiser to say nothing and look the fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 9:22:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 9:23:44 AM EST by Interceptor_Knight]

Originally Posted By FMD:
I know it's convoluted, but look at the actual text. Basically, it's trying to clarify that you cannot use a .410 for deer and bear, not that SBS are prohibited.


SBSs are fine, even for deer or bear hunting.

Rifled shotguns in a caliber larger than .410 that happen to be 18" or more are not considered rifles by the DNR, and are thus legal for deer and bear.


It still looks like SBS in NOT OK in shotgun only areas.... Are you addressing these areas?????
Since it defines a rifled barrel shotgun 18" or more a shotgun, a Shotgun with a rifled barrel shorter than 18" would NOT be considered a shotgun..... It would not specify 18" or more if any length barrel were OK for shotgun only..
In all other areas of the state, SBS would be fine as you can use a rifle...
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 1:20:55 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Rob940:
Really what the hell is this obsession to use SBR's and suppressors for hunting? Seriously its not worth the hassle.


If individuals are paying as much or more than the rifle ($400 to $1000 average) for a good scope to put on their rifle to assist their eye's, is it a hassle to pay as much to protect my ears???!!! I enjoy being in the outdoors and listening to what is going on, but I value my hearing; so instead of wearing my electronic earmuffs (which now don't work after two seasons) I am going to pay more for and shoot a setup that I won't have to worry about hearing loss. In addition, when I teach my children to shoot, they won't have to wear hearing protection and will be better able to listen to my instructions. They will also be less likely to develop a flinch from a loud gun blast. As far as SBR's, an 8" suppressor really adds to the length of the rifle, if it's legal to make the rifle more compact for use in the woods with a suppressor then it is up to each individual to determine if it is worth a couple hundred bucks, some short paperwork and a few months of wait time to make their hunting experience more pleasant. To me it's not a hassle...it is exercising my legal rights as a United States citizen.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 1:22:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 1:24:43 PM EST by johnshiredman]



Photoman, I would really appreciate you taking the time to send them on if you find them. Thank you
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 2:18:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By johnshiredman:


Photoman, I would really appreciate you taking the time to send them on if you find them. Thank you


they have been sent
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 2:54:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 2:55:13 PM EST by FMD]

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By FMD:
I know it's convoluted, but look at the actual text. Basically, it's trying to clarify that you cannot use a .410 for deer and bear, not that SBS are prohibited.


SBSs are fine, even for deer or bear hunting.

Rifled shotguns in a caliber larger than .410 that happen to be 18" or more are not considered rifles by the DNR, and are thus legal for deer and bear.


It still looks like SBS in NOT OK in shotgun only areas.... Are you addressing these areas?????
Since it defines a rifled barrel shotgun 18" or more a shotgun, a Shotgun with a rifled barrel shorter than 18" would NOT be considered a shotgun..... It would not specify 18" or more if any length barrel were OK for shotgun only..
In all other areas of the state, SBS would be fine as you can use a rifle...


Highlighted the important paraphrases.

Basically, anyone who has a rifle-barreled SBS for deer or bear hunting is SOL. Smoothbore SBSs are just fine for shotgun-only areas, as are rifled shotguns over .410 with a barrel length of 18" or more. The 18" part only applies to rifled barrels.

Now I personally think that if you use a rifled barrel in an SBS, you probably have bigger issues than deer or bear hunting.

Just sayin'.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 3:39:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By FMD:
I know it's convoluted, but look at the actual text. Basically, it's trying to clarify that you cannot use a .410 for deer and bear, not that SBS are prohibited.


SBSs are fine, even for deer or bear hunting.

Rifled shotguns in a caliber larger than .410 that happen to be 18" or more are not considered rifles by the DNR, and are thus legal for deer and bear.


It still looks like SBS in NOT OK in shotgun only areas.... Are you addressing these areas?????
Since it defines a rifled barrel shotgun 18" or more a shotgun, a Shotgun with a rifled barrel shorter than 18" would NOT be considered a shotgun..... It would not specify 18" or more if any length barrel were OK for shotgun only..
In all other areas of the state, SBS would be fine as you can use a rifle...


Highlighted the important paraphrases.

Basically, anyone who has a rifle-barreled SBS for deer or bear hunting is SOL. Smoothbore SBSs are just fine for shotgun-only areas, as are rifled shotguns over .410 with a barrel length of 18" or more. The 18" part only applies to rifled barrels.

Now I personally think that if you use a rifled barrel in an SBS, you probably have bigger issues than deer or bear hunting.

Just sayin'.


Wouldn't that make it a Destructive Device?
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 8:05:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By FMD:
Basically, anyone who has a rifle-barreled SBS for deer or bear hunting is SOL. Smoothbore SBSs are just fine for shotgun-only areas, as are rifled shotguns over .410 with a barrel length of 18" or more. The 18" part only applies to rifled barrels.

Now I personally think that if you use a rifled barrel in an SBS, you probably have bigger issues than deer or bear hunting.


Yes... I agree that smooth bore SBS is "legal"..... I personally prefer rifled shotgun slug barrels so that I can take advantage of the modern high velocity sabot slugs.. I have used rifled choke tubes in smooth barrels for 100+ yards with success. It would be hard to find a smooth bore short barrel which takes choke tubes....
Rifled SBS would be nice for hunting in the brush. Thickets are a pain in the ass with a long barrel. Many rifled barrels are 22-24" long.... A 14" would be nice as you should still have plenty of velocity if you are shooting across a clearing. A metric assload of people hunt Bear and Deer with pistol in Wisconsin (quite a few anyways), so a rifled SBS wouldn't be out of line....
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 9:11:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2008 9:11:21 AM EST by FMD]

Originally Posted By sprayandpray:
Wouldn't that make it a Destructive Device?


A rifled barrel on an SBS? Not if it's chambered for 12G or smaller, IIRC.


Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Yes... I agree that smooth bore SBS is "legal"..... I personally prefer rifled shotgun slug barrels so that I can take advantage of the modern high velocity sabot slugs.. I have used rifled choke tubes in smooth barrels for 100+ yards with success. It would be hard to find a smooth bore short barrel which takes choke tubes....


There are plenty of folks that have their SBS threaded for screw-in chokes.


Rifled SBS would be nice for hunting in the brush. Thickets are a pain in the ass with a long barrel. Many rifled barrels are 22-24" long.... A 14" would be nice as you should still have plenty of velocity if you are shooting across a clearing. A metric assload of people hunt Bear and Deer with pistol in Wisconsin (quite a few anyways), so a rifled SBS wouldn't be out of line....


While I understand your point, the point of my post was to clarify that the definition of a "Shotgun" as codified does not exclude SBS from use for hunting any species.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:51:33 PM EST
Lets Go Hunt N

Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:49:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rob940:
Really what the hell is this obsession to use SBR's and suppressors for hunting? Seriously its not worth the hassle.


I'm sure there are types of hunting and/or shooting that you do that I really have absolutely no interest in, or want the hassle of doing.

However, I will fight so you may exercise your right to hunt and shoot where YOUR interests lie. I would hope you would do the same.

Suppressors are good for hunting as the report of the firearm does not affect game as much.

Use of a suppressor does not draw attention to the shots when hunting legally in areas where non-hunters call the Sheriff's Office when they hear shots.

Use of a SBR with a suppressor allows those with them already (Maybe for other purposes) to hunt with a package that is reasonable in overall length in the woods.

Friend of mine uses a legal suppressor on his .22 LR for these reasons when we squirrel hunt.
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