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Posted: 10/18/2004 3:40:51 PM EST
Is it possible to get a SBR license in WA?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:59:27 PM EST
not looking so good, everything i've been reading indicates that this is illegal. DOH!!!!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:05:23 PM EST
In general, no you may not have an SBR in Washington

RCW 9.41.010
Terms defined.
(4) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.


RCW 9.41.190
Unlawful firearms -- Exceptions.

(1) It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.

(2) This section shall not apply to:

(a) Any peace officer in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty, or to any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty; or

(b) A person, including an employee of such person if the employee has undergone fingerprinting and a background check, who or which is exempt from or licensed under federal law, and engaged in the production, manufacture, repair, or testing of machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles:

(i) To be used or purchased by the armed forces of the United States;

(ii) To be used or purchased by federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement agencies; or

(iii) For exportation in compliance with all applicable federal laws and regulations.

(3) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution brought under this section that the machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle was acquired prior to July 1, 1994, and is possessed in compliance with federal law.

(4) Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:24:24 PM EST
DOH. Thanks, I just moved from PA and the WA laws are kicking my ass.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:34:52 PM EST
Hmm...What year were Class III made illegal here? and what about any grandfather clause?

And can a grandfather'd SBR or SBS be transferred in-state?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:39:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By -UHLEK-:
Hmm...What year were Class III made illegal here? and what about any grandfather clause?

And can a grandfather'd SBR or SBS be transferred in-state?



1994, no transfers.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:51:37 PM EST
Yes, it blows. There was time when this place was like Nevada. Only a CLEO stood in your way. Now suppressors are the only category left, & even those can't be used here, just owned. You have to go out of state to use them. Oregon has been the closest usable local, but if this "Ginny"-person in the OR legislature passess her ban down there, I'd guess Idaho will be the only place left to go. I remember Jim Ryan explicitly telling me the reason he jumped ship & moved Tac Ord's operations to Idaho was because of the change in attitude towards guns in WA.

Blame it on transplanted Kalyfornyan's Kalyfornicating all over everything, everyone.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:58:53 PM EST

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:23:16 PM EST
See the post at the top of the page for information about this weekends group shoot.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:37:42 PM EST
Check this out:

http://www.autoweapons.com/pagelinks/statelist.html

WA = SBR is ok?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:39:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By -UHLEK-:
Hmm...What year were Class III made illegal here? and what about any grandfather clause?

And can a grandfather'd SBR or SBS be transferred in-state?



1994, no transfers.



Man, that's just a red-letter year for assholes doing stupid shit, huh?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:40:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
Blame it on transplanted Kalyfornyan's Kalyfornicating all over everything, everyone.



Hear, hear!!!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:43:43 PM EST
The header on their list

CHECK YOUR STATE -- WE DO NOT GUARANTEE THIS LIST TO BE PERFECTLY CORRECT -- ALWAYS CHECK WITH YOUR LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.


Sorry, but the RCW I posted is pretty clear about SBRs.

Looking again it looks like they may have transposed the YES for AOWs with the NO for SBRs, but then again they list NO for Supressors and they are legal to own.

I've dropped an email to them about it
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:00:50 PM EST
Read this guys!!!

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=200876

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!­!!!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:08:25 PM EST
It's going to take forver for the pics to load on my dial up connection but pistols are OK and AOWs can be done in WA too, so I'm at this juncture not seeing your point.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:17:13 PM EST
All I want is a lead-delivery system that can shoot .223 / 5.56 cal bullets that's shorter than a legal carbine.

A pistol w/ a 7.5 .223/5.56 upper is exactly what I'm looking for. Mount a beta-c mag on it, hundres of rounds of fun baby!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:37:00 PM EST
Pistols are ok, just follow the rules.

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:56:03 PM EST
AOWs and DDs are legal also.

BTW, most people refer to it as a class 3 license, but that would be an add on to an FFL to allow one to deal in most NFA weapons. What we are talking about is a tax stamp. The registration, as the '34 NFA was written, requires that the weapon be registered so they can see that the tax has been paid. As it was originally written, the law was meant to tax interstate commerce, primarily, because it was thought that an outright ban would be overturned in court. It wasn't until the 1960s that Congress decided it would be possible to pass any kind of outright ban. At least thats my read on the situation.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:44:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
AOWs and DDs are legal also.

BTW, most people refer to it as a class 3 license, but that would be an add on to an FFL to allow one to deal in most NFA weapons. What we are talking about is a tax stamp. The registration, as the '34 NFA was written, requires that the weapon be registered so they can see that the tax has been paid. As it was originally written, the law was meant to tax interstate commerce, primarily, because it was thought that an outright ban would be overturned in court. It wasn't until the 1960s that Congress decided it would be possible to pass any kind of outright ban. At least thats my read on the situation.



I read somewhere and was told multiple times that WA is a non-class3 state, no exceptions for individuals. Perhaps dealers or manufacturers, but definitely (again) no individuals.

If it was possible, I would've sent in my docs for class3 in a flash. $200 or $2000, as long as I have SBR that's FULLAUTO, I would do it.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:50:46 PM EST
WA allows Any Other Weapons (AOWs), Destructive Devices (DDs), and suppressors, which can be owned and attached, but not fired in state. SBSs, SBRs and MGs are not legal unless grandfathered.

An actual class three license is also legal. Wade's sells suppressors, and there are a few C3 dealers, mostly working out of their homes or small shops., They sell to LE.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:57:24 PM EST
Hm ... if I add a front combat grip to a pistol lower + 7.5 inch DPMS upper, that makes the firearm a AOW, which is legal to possess?

And, when I decide to goto the range, I'll remove the front combat grip and I can then fire it again legally in public view?

FYI: This is all w/ a pistol buffer tube, no stock (which makes it a SBR).
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:03:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4Kid:
Hm ... if I add a front combat grip to a pistol lower + 7.5 inch DPMS upper, that makes the firearm a AOW, which is legal to possess?

And, when I decide to goto the range, I'll remove the front combat grip and I can then fire it again legally in public view?

FYI: This is all w/ a pistol buffer tube, no stock (which makes it a SBR).





I dont want to know if you're gonna break the law!

Pay the $200 to make an AOW. Or have a manufacturer of NFA weapons make it, pay the tax (for them its free to build) then pay the $5 transfer tax. Go corporate if you can't get a CLEO signoff.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:06:29 PM EST
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I'm NEVER going to break the law. Maybe I just misunderstood you. However, I would never ever build anything that'd be illegal.

One last question before I goto sleep:
If I buy a bushmaster pistol, isn't THAT lower on that pistol registered as a pistol to begin with? What's to prevent me from popping a DPMS 7.5 inch upper on it? If this is illegal, can someone explain to me the difference between THAT lower, and a stripper lower registered as a pistol?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:07:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Go corporate if you can't get a CLEO signoff.



Whats required to go corporate?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:11:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4Kid:
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I'm NEVER going to break the law. Maybe I just misunderstood you. However, I would never ever build anything that'd be illegal.

One last question before I goto sleep:
If I buy a bushmaster pistol, isn't THAT lower on that pistol registered as a pistol to begin with? What's to prevent me from popping a DPMS 7.5 inch upper on it? If this is illegal, can someone explain to me the difference between THAT lower, and a stripper lower registered as a pistol?



Its a pistol. All the pistol registration bit means is that it can't have a stock on it before its made into a pistol, and the FFL logs it out as a pistol, with the same WA paperwork that goes with a pistol.

I don't know if you could put the DPMS upper on it, BFI is using lots of proprietary parts on the carbon guns.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:13:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Go corporate if you can't get a CLEO signoff.



Whats required to go corporate?



You start a corporation. You have to have articles of incorporation. All corporate officers can possess the NFA goodies. A non-profit will do. There is an FAQ taacked in the M16-Full-Auto forum.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:17:53 PM EST
Sigh ... I just found a pistol upper that I wanted on http://www.model1sales.com/. However, if bushmaster goes and makes a lower that's not compatible, then I am SOL. Someone should make a pistol out of normal alumnium lowers, that would RULE!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:19:05 PM EST
You could. Just buy a stripped lower from BFI, have it shipped to your dealer, and log it out as a pistol.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:48:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 9:53:07 PM EST by Phil_in_Seattle]
Kid, you're way lost here.

To start with you don't seem to know what an SBR actually is (hint the legal definition was already posted in this thread).

A pistol AR is just that, Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

AOW is a bit trickier so lets not go there yet. (see the bottom of this post for more)

I saw in one of your other posts that you wanted to build

Bushmaster LEO Lower.
DPMS 7.5" A3 Kitty Kat Upper.
Vltor Collapsible Stock.
Surefire M951SU.
TangoDown VG-BK BattleGrip.
Eotech 512.



That would be an SBR, which you aren't going to be able to have in WA.
Why is it an SBR you ask?

1) It's a rifle, "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

2) Barrel length less than 16"

3) If the overall length is less than 26"


The same gun configured without the stock and foregrip is a pistol, if and only if when the receiver has never been a rifle or had a stock attached to it.

Put the foregrip on the above pistol and you now have an illegal AOW. It's illegal because you haven't submitted and received approval on your application to make an AOW.

An AOW is defined to be "...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition." 26 USC sec. 5845(e). The ATF has made the decision that a handgun with more than one grip is an AOW based on the gun a) being concealable and b) not meeting the definition of a "pistol" in the regulations promulgated under the NFA, since they say a pistol has a single grip at an angle to the bore.



Here is the ATF view on making an AR pistol

www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt



October 1, 1992


Firearms Technical Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
650 Mass. Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20226

Dear Sirs:

The Greensboro, NC BATF Compliance Office suggested that I write to
you for information on the following point.

I am interested on whether it is possible to have a commercially
manufactured rifle receiver changed to be legally considered to be a handgun
receiver, and how this can be done. The Compliance Office said that this
might be possible via a "Letter of Determination", but advised me to write
to you about the criteria and procedures.

For example, if a person has a rifle receiver and wishes to have it
built into a rifle-caliber handgun suitable for steel silhouette target
shooting, comparable to the bolt action Remington XP-100 handgun. I
understand that the serial number of this receiver is recorded as being for a
rifle. Could this person have this receiver's serial number considered to be
a handgun receiver? If so, what procedures and paperwork would be
necessary.

Sincerely,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oct 29 1992
Dear Mr. XXXXX:

This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.

26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may
be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely your,
(signed)
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch




OK, I think I covered it all.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:56:12 PM EST
And ont he pistol part, the key words are here..........



Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.

Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:06:35 AM EST
After reading a few more threads last night, i think I know exactly what I want and keeping it legal.

1. A stripped lower registered as a pistol.
2. A DPMS 7.5 inch upper.
3. A pistol recoil buffer from Model 1.
4. A Reflecx Sight.
5. Beta-C

There, completely legal in the freaking anal state of WA.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 8:56:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 8:57:41 AM EST by R-32]

Originally Posted By M4Kid:

There, completely legal in the freaking anal state of WA.




It could be a lot worse....



Great post Phil!
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:55:29 AM EST
Phil, thats a good post. I don't have the patience to drag all that stuff together.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:03:11 AM EST
Thanks Phil!
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 1:51:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 2:30:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4Kid:

There, completely legal in the freaking anal state of WA.



You could have stayed in your PA paradise.

This anal state has a D+ rating from the Brady Campaign to take your guns away and PA has the same rating.

This anal state allows person to person sales of handguns and longguns with having to go through an FFL or the sheriff, PA does not have that for handguns

This anal state does have a 5-day waiting period for handgun sales through a dealer, but it is waived with a valid CPL.

In this anal state the Attorney general is not clearly authorized to independently regulate firearms or establish gun safety standards as part of the Attorney General’s responsibility to protect consumers. In PA State law grants the Attorney General independent authority to regulate firearms, as part of the AG’s responsibility to protect consumers. This is a clear path to gun banning.

The anal state of WA has had shall issue CPL since 1961(3rd in the nation), PA didn't get a clue until 1989.

That's right in WA you can't have MGs, SBRs, SBS, all of which you can have in PA, but for the WA resident there are legal ways to have those if you really want.

Ask a resident of for example, CA, NY, NJ, KS, DE, IL, or MA if they think WA is an anal state.

Correct me if any of the above information is incorrect.

Hell I'm not even from WA!!!!

I'm coming up on being here for six years and I know for gun owners WA isn't bad at all.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:34:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 8:38:09 AM EST by mordecai]
Chew on this.

RCW 9.41.010 (4) & (6) SBR/SBS's.

(4) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length AND any weapon made from a rifle by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(6) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length AND any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.


Less-than-willing attorney's I've inquired with interpret the "AND" to mean SBR/SBS's must satisfy both criteria, whereas an OR would mean either criteria could apply.

I contend people and the NFA are misinterpreting the AND to mean OR, therefore you should be able to have a short-barreled gun that is over 26" in overall length or a super-short-buttstocked gun with barrel(s) at least 16-18" in length accordingly. (The latter being somewhat ridiculous.)

(Of course, living in a world where we are asked "what the definition of is is" does lend risk to such an adventure.)
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:41:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By M4Kid:

There, completely legal in the freaking anal state of WA.



You could have stayed in your PA paradise.

This anal state has a D+ rating from the Brady Campaign to take your guns away and PA has the same rating.

This anal state allows person to person sales of handguns and longguns with having to go through an FFL or the sheriff, PA does not have that for handguns

This anal state does have a 5-day waiting period for handgun sales through a dealer, but it is waived with a valid CPL.

In this anal state the Attorney general is not clearly authorized to independently regulate firearms or establish gun safety standards as part of the Attorney General’s responsibility to protect consumers. In PA State law grants the Attorney General independent authority to regulate firearms, as part of the AG’s responsibility to protect consumers. This is a clear path to gun banning.

The anal state of WA has had shall issue CPL since 1961(3rd in the nation), PA didn't get a clue until 1989.

That's right in WA you can't have MGs, SBRs, SBS, all of which you can have in PA, but for the WA resident there are legal ways to have those if you really want.

Ask a resident of for example, CA, NY, NJ, KS, DE, IL, or MA if they think WA is an anal state.

Correct me if any of the above information is incorrect.

Hell I'm not even from WA!!!!

I'm coming up on being here for six years and I know for gun owners WA isn't bad at all.



Hey Phil ... all I am saying is that I had a lot more toys back in PA than I do here in WA.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 3:19:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 3:24:40 PM EST by Phil_in_Seattle]

Originally Posted By M4Kid:

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By M4Kid:

There, completely legal in the freaking anal state of WA.



You could have stayed in your PA paradise.

This anal state has a D+ rating from the Brady Campaign to take your guns away and PA has the same rating.

This anal state allows person to person sales of handguns and longguns with having to go through an FFL or the sheriff, PA does not have that for handguns

This anal state does have a 5-day waiting period for handgun sales through a dealer, but it is waived with a valid CPL.

In this anal state the Attorney general is not clearly authorized to independently regulate firearms or establish gun safety standards as part of the Attorney General’s responsibility to protect consumers. In PA State law grants the Attorney General independent authority to regulate firearms, as part of the AG’s responsibility to protect consumers. This is a clear path to gun banning.

The anal state of WA has had shall issue CPL since 1961(3rd in the nation), PA didn't get a clue until 1989.

That's right in WA you can't have MGs, SBRs, SBS, all of which you can have in PA, but for the WA resident there are legal ways to have those if you really want.

Ask a resident of for example, CA, NY, NJ, KS, DE, IL, or MA if they think WA is an anal state.

Correct me if any of the above information is incorrect.

Hell I'm not even from WA!!!!

I'm coming up on being here for six years and I know for gun owners WA isn't bad at all.



Hey Phil ... all I am saying is that I had a lot more toys back in PA than I do here in WA.



And I'm saying it's not so bad here in WA, you gained some, you lost some, it's your personal decision as to whether the balance tilts or not.

When I moved I lost MGs (C&Rs only), SBR(C&Rs only), SBS(C&Rs only).

I gained supressors, shall issue CPL, person to person handgun sales without having to get permission from the police and registration of the same.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:42:18 AM EST
I moved to Washington from New York... Washington is GUN PARADISE compared to NYC. I wish it was even more open like Nevada, but mainly hope that we don't LOSE any ground in protecting our 2nd Amd. rights...
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:32:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By uberdog:
I moved to Washington from New York... Washington is GUN PARADISE compared to NYC. I wish it was even more open like Nevada, but mainly hope that we don't LOSE any ground in protecting our 2nd Amd. rights...



Rossi is with us. If he wins he'll likely sign bills in our favor. McKenna is pro gun. The NRA gave Brad Owen even, a Democrat, a B rating. Better than many Republicans. Lots of guys with good NRA ratings up for the court or state legislators positions.

If we get some good results this election we may be able to push for some of the states laws about NFA weapons to be repealed.
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