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Posted: 6/3/2008 6:56:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 6:57:49 AM EST by Slimjim]
Ok, so i keep hearing from dealers that the VZ-58 is a regulated weapon. As they seem to think it is a AK variant. Which it is not. (The czech basically thumbed their noses at the soviets when they tried to make them adopt it) Anyway, Its not named on the regulated list. And its action is NOTHING like an AK action. It happens to look like one, but MD isnt going by looks here.

NO ak parts interchange with it includeing magazines. It is a short stroke piston design with a tilting bolt. An ak is a long stroke gas piston with Rotating bolt. The AK is hammer fired, whereas the VZ is striker fired. The only thing they may have in common is that there are milled ak's out there. And the VZ uses a milled reciever.

Why dont these dealers get that this weapon is NOT regulated.

Remember kids, MD only uses a list, if the rifle is on the list, its regulated if not. Its a long gun. Of course when you have two different dealers, one selling the sig 556 as a regulated because it can take 550 parts, and the other selling it as a long gun, what do you expect.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 9:03:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 9:04:16 AM EST by CBR900]
Why are the dealers doing this? Couple of reasons:

1) Sanford Abrams. He thought it was OK to sell an HBAR face to face. A Bushmaster brand HBAR, and NOT a Colt brand one that says "Colt HBAR" on the receiver. Sandy is still allowed to own guns, but he can't own any regulated firearms in MD.

2) An FFL dealer called the Maryland State Police to find out how they interpret the regulated list. The State Police answered: "if it looks similar to a gun on the list, then its regulated." That was over the phone. The phone call was not recorded. Is that the official position of the MSP? Yes - at least of that officer that day.

Don't we need an opinion in writing from a court or the State's attorneys' office? - Yes, we need it, but we will not get it. The courts do not issue those types of "advisory opinions." Until some one is brought to trial on state charges, the issue will not be resolved.

You are correct about the VZ-58. On the other hand, I can hear the MSP saying "looks like an AK to me!" - and only THEY have the final say here.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 9:29:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 9:31:00 AM EST by Slimjim]

Originally Posted By CBR900:
Why are the dealers doing this? Couple of reasons:

1) Sanford Abrams. He thought it was OK to sell an HBAR face to face. A Bushmaster brand HBAR, and NOT a Colt brand one that says "Colt HBAR" on the receiver. Sandy is still allowed to own guns, but he can't own any regulated firearms in MD.

2) An FFL dealer called the Maryland State Police to find out how they interpret the regulated list. The State Police answered: "if it looks similar to a gun on the list, then its regulated." That was over the phone. The phone call was not recorded. Is that the official position of the MSP? Yes - at least of that officer that day.

Don't we need an opinion in writing from a court or the State's attorneys' office? - Yes, we need it, but we will not get it. The courts do not issue those types of "advisory opinions." Until some one is brought to trial on state charges, the issue will not be resolved.

You are correct about the VZ-58. On the other hand, I can hear the MSP saying "looks like an AK to me!" - and only THEY have the final say here.


In that sense the Sig 556 looks like an AR, but some dealers sell them no paperwork. The only thing that should matter is What the written law says. Also, you really couldnt say it looks like An ak, because once you open the action, that big gaping hole would give it away that it isnt.

Also, Fulton sells AR's as Hbars all day long, and without reported incident.

And you could call MDSP all day and get 5 different opinions from 5 different people. All you can go by, is the law itself.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 3:48:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 4:09:35 AM EST by shrikefan]
Doesn't the law say something about including "copies regardless of manufacturer"?

A copy is "exactly" the same as the original in appearance or function.

Going by their logic, you could send a one dollar bill for the ten dollar fee and that should be acceptable since it is similar.

I understand dealers following the wishes of the MSP since they could yank their dealers license.


ETA - IMO the difference in serial numbers from one gun to the next would be enough to say that two otherwise identical guns would not be copies of each other appearance wise.

If the functional parts were interchangable with reasonable expectation that they would work properly in either gun (excessive wear, etc. aside) then they would be functional copies of each other.

All the decisions from MSP favor one thing and one thing only - continued job security. Not one gun law they have pushed for has had any impact on crime.

I'll bet you could buy one out of state cash and carry since they are not on the list or a copy.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 4:16:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By CBR900:
Why are the dealers doing this? Couple of reasons:

1) Sanford Abrams. He thought it was OK to sell an HBAR face to face. A Bushmaster brand HBAR, and NOT a Colt brand one that says "Colt HBAR" on the receiver. Sandy is still allowed to own guns, but he can't own any regulated firearms in MD.

2) An FFL dealer called the Maryland State Police to find out how they interpret the regulated list. The State Police answered: "if it looks similar to a gun on the list, then its regulated." That was over the phone. The phone call was not recorded. Is that the official position of the MSP? Yes - at least of that officer that day.

Don't we need an opinion in writing from a court or the State's attorneys' office? - Yes, we need it, but we will not get it. The courts do not issue those types of "advisory opinions." Until some one is brought to trial on state charges, the issue will not be resolved.

You are correct about the VZ-58. On the other hand, I can hear the MSP saying "looks like an AK to me!" - and only THEY have the final say here.


I'll bet you a new HBAR that you can swap any new Colt HBAR .223 lower with any other new ar 15 .223 lower and have a reasonable expectation for the resulting firearm to function. You in?

IMO that makes it a copy if you go by the law. But what politician/political entity ever let minor details like laws affect their personal opinions/wishes.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 5:49:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Doesn't the law say something about including "copies regardless of manufacturer"?

A copy is "exactly" the same as the original in appearance or function.

Going by their logic, you could send a one dollar bill for the ten dollar fee and that should be acceptable since it is similar.

I understand dealers following the wishes of the MSP since they could yank their dealers license.


ETA - IMO the difference in serial numbers from one gun to the next would be enough to say that two otherwise identical guns would not be copies of each other appearance wise.

If the functional parts were interchangable with reasonable expectation that they would work properly in either gun (excessive wear, etc. aside) then they would be functional copies of each other.

All the decisions from MSP favor one thing and one thing only - continued job security. Not one gun law they have pushed for has had any impact on crime.

I'll bet you could buy one out of state cash and carry since they are not on the list or a copy.


But, a VZ-58 looks does not look exactly like an AK, especially with the action open.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 5:56:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Slimjim:

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Doesn't the law say something about including "copies regardless of manufacturer"?

A copy is "exactly" the same as the original in appearance or function.

Going by their logic, you could send a one dollar bill for the ten dollar fee and that should be acceptable since it is similar.

I understand dealers following the wishes of the MSP since they could yank their dealers license.


ETA - IMO the difference in serial numbers from one gun to the next would be enough to say that two otherwise identical guns would not be copies of each other appearance wise.

If the functional parts were interchangable with reasonable expectation that they would work properly in either gun (excessive wear, etc. aside) then they would be functional copies of each other.

All the decisions from MSP favor one thing and one thing only - continued job security. Not one gun law they have pushed for has had any impact on crime.

I'll bet you could buy one out of state cash and carry since they are not on the list or a copy.


But, a VZ-58 looks does not look exactly like an AK, especially with the action open.


Talk to the guy with the 6by out front.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 4:51:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
All the decisions from MSP favor one thing and one thing only - continued job security. Not one gun law they have pushed for has had any impact on crime.

I'll bet you could buy one out of state cash and carry since they are not on the list or a copy.


- and there is your answer. Marylanders regularly buy AR-10s at Virginia and Pennsylvania gun shows.

- apparently, FFL holders in PA and VA do not have the reading comprehension problems that Maryland FFL holders seem to have.

EDIT - OK - that was a little unfair. The Maryland FFL holders have more reason to read the unclear MD laws in an extreme fashion: Why? Because one of Maryland's own FFL dealers, Sanford Abrams, was prosecuted for a variety of reasons, but it appears a major reason is that Maryland police were extremely pissed off at him personally after the Showalter incident, and they used MD's screwy "regulated firearm" laws to force Sanford into a plea agreement.

Bottom line: Maryland has demonstrated that it WILL personally go after Maryland FFL holders using MD's vague firearms law.

If I had an FFL here in VA, I would sell the VZ as an unregulated firearm since the law clearly does not state VZ=AK. If Maryland wanted to try to make a case out of the VZ being regulated, they would lose in any court, and I doubt the BATFE would back them up since its a Maryland gun law, and not federal, (plus BATFE would realize the law does not support the idea that VZ=AK).
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 5:12:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By CBR900:

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
All the decisions from MSP favor one thing and one thing only - continued job security. Not one gun law they have pushed for has had any impact on crime.

I'll bet you could buy one out of state cash and carry since they are not on the list or a copy.




Bottom line: Maryland has demonstrated that it WILL personally go after Maryland FFL holders using MD's vague firearms law.



I have to disagree with that statement. The law is very clear. The Overlords are the ones who make stuff up to suit their whims and muddy the waters.

Businesses have an obligation to themselves to stay in business so I understand their predicament.
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