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Posted: 7/28/2006 1:53:06 PM EDT
Hello,
I wanted to start this topic locally so this seems to be the right place.
I have a small 07, 08 SOT manufacturing business and we have been trying in vain for almost 4 years to get a deal put together with ADI to bring in small parts to build a US based AUG. After years of empty promises and flat out lying the deal went very south.

Nontheless Tactical Product Design of Beaverton Oregon will move forward with some compliance parts for the AUG and, if Steyr stalls again a US AUG receiver. All the preliminary work is done. We are begining with the barrel as it seems to be a good starting place and with the grip it contains 4 parts of the nine need to put together an AUG from imported parts.

First article prototypes of the barrel, gas block, gas piston, springs, and gas regulator will be on our bench top near the end of August. The first run will only be 100 barrels and that may be it if Steyr is truely going to go forward as they have said they would since 2002.

The barrel work is all but done save for testing and tweaking. Barrel timing fixture done. All tooling in place for barrel.

I have a partial drawing package from ADI for the receiver and have 3-D positive finished for the casting mold. Still have to finish inputting the dimensions for the receiver in CAD.

So, we will see if the was all worth it. I don't have to tell you how much money is in this, I hope not all for not.

One more thing, considering a variation on the design and the material for the receiver if we get to that would love comments suggestions.

Cordially,

Kent Luttrell
Tactical Product Design
07, 08, SOT
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 2:03:29 PM EDT
That great, the AUG is one of my favorite rifles. I just sold a personal one only to buy a M16 but would love to get another one.
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 2:20:38 PM EDT
If you're selling AUG barrels for less than the Steyr-barrels are going for, then count me in!!! Been looking for spare AUG parts for quite some time.

- Cioppino
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 2:32:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cioppino:
If you're selling AUG barrels for less than the Steyr-barrels are going for, then count me in!!! Been looking for spare AUG parts for quite some time.

- Cioppino


I am not sure what AUG barrels go for now $600-$1000 I would guess. I think we can get well under $600, but have to crunch the final numbers. All parts will be sold seperately as well, save for the gas block.

Chrome is expensive and minimum order on chrome is very high, how important is chrome. Be honest, please.

TPD SOT
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 2:32:36 PM EDT
Would love a one as well.
Cheers to a fellow Oregonian!!!
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 2:33:59 PM EDT
FYI, we will be changing our log in name to TPD so be looking for that change from Kentlik.
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 2:38:09 PM EDT
Factory AUG barrels can be had for $500-600 except for the 24" model.
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 2:47:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
Factory AUG barrels can be had for $500-600 except for the 24" model.


I'll buy EVERY AUG barrel you can find for $500-$550
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 3:02:29 PM EDT
I'll pass on the info the next time I run into one.
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 3:49:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kentlik:

Chrome is expensive and minimum order on chrome is very high, how important is chrome.



I’ve heard that some AR15s without chrome bore barrels were having troubles with Wolf steel cased ammo. Prevention is worth it. Plus chrome equals quality for many even if it doesn’t require it.

No matter how much more a chrome lined barrel costs it’s still probably less than a case of Wolf.
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 3:52:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:

Originally Posted By Kentlik:

Chrome is expensive and minimum order on chrome is very high, how important is chrome.



I’ve heard that some AR15s without chrome bore barrels were having troubles with Wolf steel cased ammo. Prevention is worth it. Plus chrome equals quality for many even if it doesn’t require it.

No matter how much more a chrome lined barrel costs it’s still probably less than a case of Wolf.


TF, you should also mention that chrome means less accuracy.
CH
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 3:55:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 4:06:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2006 4:07:10 PM EDT by Unka-Boo]

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
TF, you should also mention that chrome means less accuracy.
CH


And that 1/7 twist barrels make bullets (((EXPLODE))) !!!!!!!!!!


STOP!!!!!!


Would this mean you could possibly assemble a new one from the few Australian receivers floating around and have enough parts count to be within 922r?
Or am I thinking backwards?
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 4:13:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

TF, you should also mention that chrome means less accuracy.
CH



But it takes a sand bagged rifle (or vise), a 16 power scope, and expensive ammo to tell any difference.
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 4:39:52 PM EDT
Ban chrome barrels!!!
DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN!!!


Seriously, though. I'd prefer chrome lined barrels.
For $600 I'd buy one of every length you make.


Link Posted: 7/28/2006 6:36:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unka-Boo:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
TF, you should also mention that chrome means less accuracy.
CH


And that 1/7 twist barrels make bullets (((EXPLODE))) !!!!!!!!!!


STOP!!!!!!


Would this mean you could possibly assemble a new one from the few Australian receivers floating around and have enough parts count to be within 922r?
Or am I thinking backwards?


How do I put this...yes, if the receiver is legaly in this country and you have the requsite number of US parts, I can provide you with two or possibly three BATFE letters to this effect, you can.

Here is the deal though; if said receivers were brought in on a form 6 specifically by you for repair and replacement and you are a licensed 08 importer and you used them for new manufacture on your 07 manufacturing license they may have a problem.

If you, or me for that matter, legally buy any legally imported Steyr-type receiver that is already in this country and assemble said receiver into a new firearm following all the regulations, AT THIS TIME, it appears compliant.

Now the more questions and letters we as importers and dealers send to the BATFE the more confused it gets for all of us. I write quite a few, and in time, get back, many responses. Some of which contradict each other. I had one letter go back to full counsel three times, unheard of. I had them on a present imperfect tense form of one word and they knew it, they disregarded it and wrote to their advantage anyway.

I have been narrowing down this compliance for THREE YEARS! One letter took 16 months to get back like I stated, and it had an error in the numbering of the parts, which is of course what this is all about, numbers. I have still not personally come to terms on that one as far as what it meant. You can draw your own conclusions on why that would happen on a letter that went to a board of BATFE lawyers three times and evidentally came back with a "typographical error."

That is not to say that the barrel and its parts are enough to satisfy the compliance it is not, you need more. To be as brief as possible, BATFE has stated there are a possible 20 parts in every shoulder fired SLR firearm. Not all these parts are in every firearm. The AUG has the most, I believe at 19. We thought it was 17, I still do, but that means little here. They say 19 so it is cheaper to build two more parts than to go to task with the BATFE. As the stock is one piece with 5 parts in it, 8 if you count the magazine, that is the big one. We were going to make the NATO stock ourselves, but since Steyr pumped a bunch out we declined. In fact we are trying to buy up the last 120 or so left in country because with a US mag it gives you three parts right there. Four if you change out the disconnector in it.

This isn't to brief is it? We will be making ALL the necessary parts and then some so you will be able to build from all the kits that have been floating about the last 5-6 years.

TPD
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 7:45:49 PM EDT
Thanks!

I'm more familiar with the AK side of things, ( but FAR from an "expert" ), so parts count when "converting" an imported rifle to an "assault" rifle ( "." meaning HEAVY sarcasm intended.. )...a la, low cap WASR-10 to high-cap. But I can see where it would be a bigger mess if the receiver didn't come into the country as a whole weapon.

I hope you have good luck in your endeavor!
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 7:57:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
TF, you should also mention that chrome means less accuracy.
CH


And that 1/7 twist barrels make bullets (((EXPLODE))) !!!!!!!!!!



So let me get this straight, If you have a 1/7 twist and chrome lined barrel.. I'm looking at an inaccurate explosion?
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 8:14:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunkata:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
TF, you should also mention that chrome means less accuracy.
CH


And that 1/7 twist barrels make bullets (((EXPLODE))) !!!!!!!!!!



So let me get this straight, If you have a 1/7 twist and chrome lined barrel.. I'm looking at an inaccurate explosion?


I have had 45 grain hp rounds "disappear" out of my 1/7 twist bbl. I wouldn't call it EXPLODING! but they do come apart.

My $0.02 worth. You get what you pay for.


Mark.

Link Posted: 7/29/2006 4:55:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:

Originally Posted By Kentlik:

Chrome is expensive and minimum order on chrome is very high, how important is chrome.



I’ve heard that some AR15s without chrome bore barrels were having troubles with Wolf steel cased ammo. Prevention is worth it. Plus chrome equals quality for many even if it doesn’t require it.

No matter how much more a chrome lined barrel costs it’s still probably less than a case of Wolf.


TF, you should also mention that chrome means less accuracy.
CH


Untrue. People don't use as high a quality barrel for chroming as a match barrel. If a match barrel is chrome lined properly it will not loose any accuracy.

Will these be hammer forged?
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 7:46:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By azathoth:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:

Originally Posted By Kentlik:

Chrome is expensive and minimum order on chrome is very high, how important is chrome.



I’ve heard that some AR15s without chrome bore barrels were having troubles with Wolf steel cased ammo. Prevention is worth it. Plus chrome equals quality for many even if it doesn’t require it.

No matter how much more a chrome lined barrel costs it’s still probably less than a case of Wolf.


TF, you should also mention that chrome means less accuracy.
CH


Untrue. People don't use as high a quality barrel for chroming as a match barrel. If a match barrel is chrome lined properly it will not loose any accuracy.

Will these be hammer forged?


No they will not be hammer forged. Hammer forging is a much faster process, but aside from that it has few if any other advantages over button or broach cutting. The most accurates barrels on the market are not hammer forged, they are button or broach cut. Which is why we use this process. We could have used forging, there are several manufacturers who offer this service now, but we chose the standard of US milspec barrel rifling process. 1X9 twist, chrome lined it seems will be the first offering, in 16.25 inches, threaded in 1/2X28. Your choice of flash hider as the AUG style is not being offered on the first run. If there is significant interest we will manufacture the AUG style FH.

I will add that I believe only to the most discriminating match shooter will find any difference in the accuracy over unlined to chrome lined barrel.

TPD
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 10:43:11 AM EDT
So if I wanted an Aug, should I start trying to get parts such as the M16 adapator thing at CDNN? Or would there be a US-made version available? Sorry if I misread your post.
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 12:24:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zougou:
So if I wanted an Aug, should I start trying to get parts such as the M16 adapator thing at CDNN? Or would there be a US-made version available? Sorry if I misread your post.


No you did not misread it. I assumed to much about information people have. I have lived in this stuff for so many years I just forget regular peoples lives don't revolve around the AUG or guns in general.

The NATO stock which was at CDNN is a full AUG stock that takes the M-16 type magazine. No adapter needed. I am in the process of purchasing most if not all of those to make sure I have enough to get this along until we can cut a mold for our own. About the only thing I would go after at this time would be a carrier and bolt I have no plans at this time to manufacture a carrier. The receivers are out there many of the small parts, we plan on manufacturing the parts necessary to assemble a comliant US AUG. See list above. Legally I must say you need to investigate all the regulations and BATFE statements and satisfy yourself about the legality of using a repair and replacement receiver in the build. We read it as you can with out a doubt, but its the BATFE. Regardless, if Steyr doesn't make them we will, we are ready to go to mold once this barrel aspect is up and running.

One thing I might add is we are seriously considering going to polymer for the receiver. As the receiver acts only as a dimensional holding part and bears no stress, which wouldn't matter anyway as aramid polymer is stronger than aluminum, the mold could be made to cast a complete receiver. The mold is ten times more expensive but it may be worth it. The original AUG receivers are made from alloy just a notch above pot metal soanything would be an improvement.

TPD
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 2:20:30 PM EDT
So what you are all saying is that chrome lined barrels are as accurate as non chrome lined?

I will agree if its done right it should be as accurate. But wasnt chromelining a durablility and resistance corrosion thing?

I am just trying to understand as over the last 20 years This is the first I have heard anyone defend a chrome lined barrels accuracy against one that is not.

CH



Link Posted: 7/29/2006 2:42:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kentlik:
One more thing, considering a variation on the design and the material for the receiver if we get to that would love comments suggestions.

I am not an AUG enthusiast, fan, shooter, or owner. However, one consideration would be to delete the stock optic sight, in favor of a Picatinny rail on top of a lowered optic base - similar to the A2 or A3 versions of the AUG, pictured at world.guns.ru/assault/as20-e.htm. This allows owners to mount their own choice of optics or iron sights.

Modifying the receiver to accept AR-15 magazines (which are easier and cheaper to obtain in the US than AUG ones) is another option, though M16 mags can be a little more problematic.
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 3:13:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
So what you are all saying is that chrome lined barrels are as accurate as non chrome lined?

I will agree if its done right it should be as accurate. But wasnt chromelining a durablility and resistance corrosion thing?

I am just trying to understand as over the last 20 years This is the first I have heard anyone defend a chrome lined barrels accuracy against one that is not.

CH



Well, to be precise I said that only the most discriminating shooter would notice the difference. Unlined barrels are more accurate. Today as opposed to 20 years ago the lining process is far superior to what it was.

The chrome lining was for corrosion and ease of cleaning as well as to help in the extraction issues that were a problem in the past. Now I am NO expert whatsoever on chrome lining, I simply was interested whether you would prefer chrome lining over non chromed. Actually, I just want to produce what YOU guys want. I have my feelings about it, but they are not really relevant here because I can make whatever I want, but I need to make what you want.

I have both chrome and unchromed. My M16 is unchromed. My AUG is chromed.

Hope this helps.

TPD
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 3:19:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Asa:

Originally Posted By Kentlik:
One more thing, considering a variation on the design and the material for the receiver if we get to that would love comments suggestions.

I am not an AUG enthusiast, fan, shooter, or owner. However, one consideration would be to delete the stock optic sight, in favor of a Picatinny rail on top of a lowered optic base - similar to the A2 or A3 versions of the AUG, pictured at world.guns.ru/assault/as20-e.htm. This allows owners to mount their own choice of optics or iron sights.

Modifying the receiver to accept AR-15 magazines (which are easier and cheaper to obtain in the US than AUG ones) is another option, though M16 mags can be a little more problematic.


Fortunately we don't have to modify the receiver to accomodate the M16 magazine, just the stock. The M16 NATO stocks are currently available in country. The A2 is the receiver we will be manufacturing which takes a standard picatinney mount of the optics of your choice. The main design change would be to raise the optic mount and reconfigure the way it is mounted and removed from the receiver.

TPD
Link Posted: 7/30/2006 10:08:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2006 10:08:32 AM EDT by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By Kentlik:
....


Actually I was ref AZs comment Untrue. People don't use as high a quality barrel for chroming as a match barrel. If a match barrel is chrome lined properly it will not loose any accuracy.


Like i said I have never heard this before. Just trying to learn somthing.


Thanks
CH
Link Posted: 7/30/2006 12:11:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By Kentlik:
....


Actually I was ref AZs comment Untrue. People don't use as high a quality barrel for chroming as a match barrel. If a match barrel is chrome lined properly it will not loose any accuracy.


Like i said I have never heard this before. Just trying to learn somthing.


Thanks
CH


Sorry for the misread.
Link Posted: 7/31/2006 12:05:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2006 12:49:42 AM EDT by Cato]
Sounds very interesting!

Don't underestimate the potential market of already-AUG owners, who would
love to re-fit their A1 and A2 receivers with a A3 polymer receivers
without paying in additional weight. The idea of equipping one's other barrels
with a spare receiver is appealing too. Are custom serial numbers doable?
Just make sure that your rails are really Picatinny spec and that the most common optics
clear the charging handle. My brothers Eotech tears up his hand when he charges the gun.
An iron backup-sight like on the Steyr Scout would be great, as would be one short additional
rail on the right side for mounting a SureFire weaponlight. Civilians don't need dozens
of rails, but just one top rail on the A2 is not enough.

Since the sucess of Glock, USP, etc. people have realized that polymer is GTG.
But lets face it, you are in the assault rifle market and there a chromelined barrel
is an additional plus- if only for marketing. People will compare your barrels to
the original ones and they are chromed. The only option is to do something really
innovative- like offering 6.8 SPC barrels, heavily fluted quality stainless barrel which
can stand the abuse (like Noveske's) or ,like ABS does for the Ar15, offering a really
lightweight, carbon-fiber clad version. A "super-lightweight" US-AUG
would sell like hotcakes!!
Btw, I would go with a 1/8 spin as this is the most universal. It stabilizes bullets
from 45 to 77gr.

If you need any help with measurements, parts, etc. I will see what I can do!

PS: Scout BUIS:
Link Posted: 7/31/2006 1:20:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By Kentlik:
....


Actually I was ref AZs comment Untrue. People don't use as high a quality barrel for chroming as a match barrel. If a match barrel is chrome lined properly it will not loose any accuracy.


Like i said I have never heard this before. Just trying to learn somthing.


Thanks
CH


There have been some rather heated discussions on this in other forums. The perception of chrome not shooting as accurately is due to the base barrel quality. Back in the dark ages, when men were men and rifles were 30 cal, the chrome process wasn't what it is today. So yes, back in the day chroming could hurt accuracy. With today's technology the process is much more precise and even, and will not disturb the accuracy of the barrel it is applied to. Today this is why quality barels don't get chromed.
Link Posted: 7/31/2006 5:03:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cato:
Sounds very interesting!

Don't underestimate the potential market of already-AUG owners, who would
love to re-fit their A1 and A2 receivers with a A3 polymer receivers
without paying in additional weight. The idea of equipping one's other barrels
with a spare receiver is appealing too. Are custom serial numbers doable?
Just make sure that your rails are really Picatinny spec and that the most common optics
clear the charging handle. My brothers Eotech tears up his hand when he charges the gun.
An iron backup-sight like on the Steyr Scout would be great, as would be one short additional
rail on the right side for mounting a SureFire weaponlight. Civilians don't need dozens
of rails, but just one top rail on the A2 is not enough.

Since the sucess of Glock, USP, etc. people have realized that polymer is GTG.
But lets face it, you are in the assault rifle market and there a chromelined barrel
is an additional plus- if only for marketing. People will compare your barrels to
the original ones and they are chromed. The only option is to do something really
innovative- like offering 6.8 SPC barrels, heavily fluted quality stainless barrel which
can stand the abuse (like Noveske's) or ,like ABS does for the Ar15, offering a really
lightweight, carbon-fiber clad version. A "super-lightweight" US-AUG
would sell like hotcakes!!
Btw, I would go with a 1/8 spin as this is the most universal. It stabilizes bullets
from 45 to 77gr.

If you need any help with measurements, parts, etc. I will see what I can do!

PS: Scout BUIS:
home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielen/Iriskimme/Steyr-Scout-Lochkimme.jpg


As of now we will be offering the original AUG 16" barrel in CM with chrome lining in 1X9. A light weight barrel would be offered if there is significant interest. We have to order in large quantity, so there must be demand. As far as "super light weight," we have no plans for such an exotic line. The cost of the AUG barrel far exceeds the AR type barrel. Fundamentally it is like comparing chevy's to Ferrari's from a price stand point. The market is so full of AR barrels the price is extremely competitive. AUG barrels require much more to manufacture them, much more.

As it is right now we are about three plus months out on finished product, at best. Every vendor seems to have taken three week vacations this year and not all at the same time, rather in succesion.

As for the rails we are of the mind that too much is too much. Top rail, left and right rails. They will be mil spec USGI picatinney, we have the spec.

TPD
Link Posted: 7/31/2006 6:53:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2006 10:49:31 AM EDT by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By azathoth:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By Kentlik:
....


Actually I was ref AZs comment Untrue. People don't use as high a quality barrel for chroming as a match barrel. If a match barrel is chrome lined properly it will not loose any accuracy.


Like i said I have never heard this before. Just trying to learn somthing.


Thanks
CH


There have been some rather heated discussions on this in other forums. The perception of chrome not shooting as accurately is due to the base barrel quality. Back in the dark ages, when men were men and rifles were 30 cal, the chrome process wasn't what it is today. So yes, back in the day chroming could hurt accuracy. With today's technology the process is much more precise and even, and will not disturb the accuracy of the barrel it is applied to. Today this is why quality barels don't get chromed.


Forgive my ignorance here but if todays chroming will not distirb accuracy, then why dont you see them in match barrels and such? I mean if it wont bother accuracy you would end up with a barrel that stays accurate longer and is more durable. You would think companies would jump all over that kind of claim. A barrel with many times the life of a moly barrel with the same accuarcy. Would be one hell of a marketing tool.

I understand what your saying in regards to the process being more precise and such. Very much believable, just not sure I buy the not effecting the accuracy part. I need to do a little more research on this one. Thanks for the info.
CH

[/hijack] Sorry!
Link Posted: 7/31/2006 10:45:50 AM EDT
So are you saying that complete US compliant rifles will be finished in around 3 months or just the bbls? What kind of price are we talking about for a complete rifle?
Link Posted: 7/31/2006 2:46:45 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
So are you saying that complete US compliant rifles will be finished in around 3 months or just the bbls? What kind of price are we talking about for a complete rifle?


Just the barrels. Waiting on Steyr for a short time to start receivers See thread above and in arms and tactics.

TPDSOT
Link Posted: 8/1/2006 7:22:59 AM EDT
Thanks, I'll be saving up until then...
Link Posted: 8/12/2006 8:07:43 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Thanks, I'll be saving up until then...


Well, will have prototype barrels end of next week or earlier. Moving forward on the receiver after all. New design of optics rail looks to be a good deal. Slides on from front rather than the rear.

Will keep you informed as time permits

TPDSOT
Link Posted: 8/24/2006 8:10:29 AM EDT
Hey, any of you guys have an AUG we can check headspace on. I need to cross check wiht our barrel guy the headspace. All my stuff is at various vendors. Thank you and any help would be appreciated.

TPDSOT
Link Posted: 8/24/2006 10:19:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M-60:


I have had 45 grain hp rounds "disappear" out of my 1/7 twist bbl. I wouldn't call it EXPLODING! but they do come apart.

My $0.02 worth. You get what you pay for.


Mark.



Uhh, dude, we call that a "miss"...
Link Posted: 8/27/2006 7:04:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2006 8:13:29 PM EDT by TPDSOT]
We have gathered enough parts for the first twenty kits...

TPDSOT
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