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Posted: 2/28/2006 3:42:31 AM EDT
I'm thinking of getting a 22LR AR-a-like at some point.

Just wondering if anyone could recommend a UK source for a V22 - Southern Gun is the only one I know of at the moment.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:09:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 10:12:42 AM EDT by vito113]
< Deleted per CoC >
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:15:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:21:54 AM EDT
How easy would it be to buy from Oberland???!!
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 10:27:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 1:25:36 PM EDT
Hmmmm, what happens when you get a stuck case or a jam with the DPMS.

Yes, thats right, you have to pull it all apart.

The V22 is a way better rifle. Dave, who has actually owned both....
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:01:33 AM EDT
V22 gives you the CZ barrel quality...

Mine certainly shoots miles better than a DPMS at my club

Richard
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:04:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Suley:
How easy would it be to buy from Oberland???!!



No problem with inter EU sales as long as it's not a Section 5 part!

www.oberlandarms.com/index.php?category=&id=0&page=internationalorder[/quote

Do Oberland make UK legal AR 15's ?
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:09:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:10:42 AM EDT
Cheers Vito!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:26:33 AM EDT
I can't believe this, two ACTUAL owners opinions saying the V22 is better and yet people are still talking about Oberland and the DPMS.

Don't say we didn't warn you.....
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:33:53 AM EDT
Easy tiger that was just a quick thread hijack enquiring about Oberlands .223 rifles.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:35:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 6:35:36 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:40:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:51:26 AM EDT
Yup. Thats me. Crybaby.

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:27:29 AM EDT
I've spyed 3 different letters from customers who bought the DPMS rifle from Bodmin Bob 'the fitness freak' returning them asking for their money back.
One after only 50 rounds, not a good advert for the rifle. Not sure of the faults but they weren't the same.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:34:06 AM EDT
I also watched a gypsy looking guy nearly take Bobs head off at last years Phoenix show because of the DPMS reliability issues.

He near shit himself.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:46:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:53:44 AM EDT
thats not the point though is it.

The people who have owned a DPMS, bearing in mind not many people have, say it's unreliable and a pain to operate.

People who have owned a V22 say its a different and better animal.

Just stating facts.....
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:02:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:09:59 AM EDT
Yeah, but I actually owned both items on discussion, as does Richard. Bit different then aint it
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:12:35 AM EDT
Vito

Have you actually got one of the DPMS rifles?

The two I know of have been nothing but trouble and lets be honest here you can get a real gun for the price of the DPMS, my friends specced up came in at nearly £1300

Richard
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:21:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Many people say the USGI M261 .22 adaptor is an unreliable POS too, mine runs rather well...

Just stating facts...



I had the (modified) M261 in a Bremmer, I thought that worked really rather well
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 9:00:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 9:36:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 11:16:03 AM EDT by elucidate]
EDITED TO ADHERE:

Vito, oh esteemed holder of the lock button. I think the point that I and maybe some other members of this board are trying to get across is as such.

You are a moderator with several posts under your belt, so a newcomer may be confused and take that as a guarantor of knowledge on the subject of AR15's.

However, I am not too sure this is the case, as I have owned and operated articles mentioned previously and have real world experience.

It would not be unfair to say that you have considerably less experience in this field than me and Richard H. So I was offering up a more informed opinion.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 10:11:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 1:54:23 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 10:42:23 AM EDT

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 10:48:30 AM EDT
and this used to be such a friendly forum

Opinions are like assholes guys, everybodys got one. So lets respect 'um.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:18:37 AM EDT
And can you tell me why you deleted the first post? Which contained nothign but a link??????


The V22, which is a better rifle is available from Sid at HSLD, whom I'm sure 99% of members on this board would agree, is THE expert when it comes to making and modifying .22LR AR's

Sid at HSLD can be contacted via http://www.combatrifle.com

I don't think that breaks any rules does it??


Dave
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:23:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 1:54:53 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:23:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 1:55:07 PM EDT by vito113]
Play nice!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:53:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 1:55:24 PM EDT by vito113]
Carry on...
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:03:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elucidate:
And can you tell me why you deleted the first post? Which contained nothign but a link??????


The V22, which is a better rifle is available from Sid at HSLD, whom I'm sure 99% of members on this board would agree, is THE expert when it comes to making and modifying .22LR AR's

Sid at HSLD can be contacted via http://www.combatrifle.com

I don't think that breaks any rules does it??


Dave



Who are these 99% of members that agree Sid is THE expert when it comes to making and modifying .22LR AR's??
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:34:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 2:36:12 PM EDT by elucidate]
The members not including you and matt :-). There a LOT of people just read this board and don't post.

Maybe 99% is stretching it a bit....

I must say, via combatrifle, I get 10 e-mails a week asking about Sids work, and about 2 a month asking about Matts, just seems as if more people are interested in .22LR.


I dont know anyone else in the UK that can make fore-ends with rails, from scratch.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:41:21 PM EDT
Actually, it seems , looking at the site stats as if Mr Greenall needs to update his site with some pretty pictures, the short review of the rifle Matt Built for me has had 1485 page impressions in the last month.

Thats number one on the site right now......

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:49:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elucidate:
There a LOT of people just read this board and don't post.


That's a bit vague in the least. Sounds like the old "8 out of 10 cat owners said their cat preferred......." ad's


Maybe 99% is stretching it a bit....
Errrmmmmm......yup.


I must say, via combatrifle, I get 10 e-mails a week asking about Sids work, and about 2 a month asking about Matts, just seems as if more people are interested in .22LR.


OK, so how many has he sold? Besides most of Matt's work is via word of mouth.



I dont know anyone else in the UK that can make fore-ends with rails, from scratch.


What's the point when you can buy one from the US that doesn't look gash

I don't doubt that Sid has a talent, but I do feel that like many others, he's just playing at it.

Fact is gentlemen, the UK's greatest gunsmith is.............................................................

<­BR>





­Me
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:02:39 PM EDT
Any of you ever try the CLE or AccuracySpeaks conversions? How do they compare to what is commonly available to you?

I bought an AS when it was the only game in town. With decent ammo (RWS Target) I have been able to clean the a36 (international 50ft) target. Realistically, it is about a 9.7 setup, but it is fun to shoot.

Not trying to add fuel or water to the fire, just curious.

SRM
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 9:44:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SRM:
Any of you ever try the CLE or AccuracySpeaks conversions? How do they compare to what is commonly available to you?

I bought an AS when it was the only game in town. With decent ammo (RWS Target) I have been able to clean the a36 (international 50ft) target. Realistically, it is about a 9.7 setup, but it is fun to shoot.

Not trying to add fuel or water to the fire, just curious.

SRM



I have an Accuracy Speaks .22 upper.
'bout as reliable as any of the Ceiner kits providing you do all the mods.
I've had it 5 years now and it's still fun...................when it runs

Mark
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 9:45:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elucidate:
Actually, it seems , looking at the site stats as if Mr Greenall needs to update his site with some pretty pictures, the short review of the rifle Matt Built for me has had 1485 page impressions in the last month.

Thats number one on the site right now......




Matt needs to update a lot of things, but there are only so many hours in the day

Mark
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:45:49 PM EDT
I think people are losing site of what all these kits were designed for: -

That is, a low cost training option for the military, they don't have to be 100% combat reliable; they are a training tool! Ok, there are adaptations that have been made to make the accuracy greater, and of course the designs are very different in manufacture. However, they all use blowback as the method of operation. That combined with the nature of many .22 RF rounds (dirty and waxy) can lead to reliability problems. Yes, you can fine tune the action and be selective in your choice of ammunition. But, the fact remains they were not designed to be combat reliable!

The V22 are nice uppers, as are the DPMS ones, I have seen the V22’s play up just as much as the DPMS ones. I have a ceiner kit, which of course throws the odd spacca too!

The problems I have seen with the ‘Beast Of Bodmin’s’ DPMS kit revolved around the bolt face and the extractors hitting the chamber face, i.e. not aligned properly. This caused a burr on the chamber entrance, which closed down the diameter of the chamber entrance and prevented reliable feeding of the .22 round. A bit of file action with some Autosol helped it back to good operation.

With the V22’ I have seen the kit require nothing but the highest power .22 RF to get them to cycle. An extended break-in period and some tweaking of the springs helped there.

The ciener, can be picky with feeding from the magazine, and can also be prone to firing pin breakage.

Ok, these are not exhaustive lists of faults in any of the kits and I am not saying which is better or ‘my dog is bigger than your dog’. However, one thing across the board is common, if you want them to last, don’t dry fire them, or allow them to slam shut on any empty chamber.

Back to my original point:-

They are training units not combat units!

Tweaking and gentle care is required
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 12:28:22 AM EDT
Dammit Paul,

Here we are, having fun, even getting locks, and you come along with common sense.

Thats what should have been said from the start really.

Both the DPMS Rifles and the V22 Rifles are rubbish from the box, they definately require some tweaking. At least one Bodmin based gunsmith I know of supply's them untouched and therefore very unreliable.

In terms of day to day reliability when tweaked, the V22 seems to have the edge over the DPMS, also given the factor that stuck cases are removed within seconds on a V22 and minutes on a DPMS.

The other advantage for the V22 is as Richard pointed out, a CZ Match Barrel, a better barrel than any of the competition.

With the V22 though, it does need the springs tweaking and a lighter hammer, at which point it will run subsonics all day long.
However, the magazines get dirty very quickly. Like 500 rounds quickly.

So, don't expect to be able to buy a .22LR AR15 clone without having to get some work done on top, the supplier you mentioned will not do this for you.

You would have to speak to someone else. The reason I mentioned the supplier I did is that their lead time on a customised .22LR AR is approx 1 month, and all other suppliers seem to take about 3-6 months.

Link Posted: 3/2/2006 1:46:13 AM EDT
My .22 is based on the M261 kit, but with a proper barrel rather than the chamber adapter.

It'll run fine for a couple of hundred rounds, and by then it'll be so dirty that the bolt grinds to a halt. So I have to take it apart to clear the crud out for the next couple of hundred...

The above doesn't apply in competitions, where it will usually stop during each 10 round string...
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 10:14:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 10:14:53 AM EDT by richardh]

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By richardh:
Vito

Have you actually got one of the DPMS rifles?

Tried them in both versions, thought they were perfectly OK...if I buy another .22 AR it would be a DPMS upper

OK........ You're obviously convinced by it, I'm interested in your reasoning though?

The two I know of have been nothing but trouble and lets be honest here you can get a real gun for the price of the DPMS, my friends specced up came in at nearly £1300

My wifes cheap Honda is the most reliable car we've ever owned, my Mercedes is a bloody pain in the arse and always breaking down, and your point on cost is what exactly?

Personally for £1300 I would expect a .22 rifle to be absolutely faultless, even that Bodmin based business admits they have been a world of trouble for owners and actually advised me the V22 was far more accurate and reliable although the side charging isnt in the spirit of the original.

Therefore my point is, to use your analagy, that if your wifes Honda was more reliable, faster, better built, more comfortable and more economical than your Mercedes and could accept aftermarket Mercedes body parts to offer a visually identical package that was better in every way yet still significantly cheaper, then the man who bought the Merc with all its disadvantages after being made aware of its faults would be less than wise


Richard



Link Posted: 3/2/2006 10:15:09 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Streetfighter:

Who are these 99% of members that agree Sid is THE expert when it comes to making and modifying .22LR AR's??



99% is perhaps a little ambitious

That said I can only speak as I find, I have had several .22 AR's in different flavours, other than the Bodmin based business very few RFD's are really interested in rimfires since Sabre stopped production of the Bremmer, if you are looking for a non standard configuration it becomes almost impossible. Perhaps the margins aren't there for most businesses, perhaps the market is too small particularly if every build is different but Sid was the only RFD interested in building a rifle to my spec and to my timescales, I've seen other one off jobs he's undertaken and been very impressed.

There are undoubtedly other RFD's with the necessary skills and machinery but very few will undertake one off .22 builds in a realistic timeframe and at realistic cost, personally if he wants to make this niche his own the best of luck to him.

I'll put up some pictures of mine when I get it back and we can all draw our own conclusions

Just my humble thoughts for the little they are usually worth

Richard

Link Posted: 3/2/2006 10:31:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By richardh:



Originally Posted By Streetfighter:

Who are these 99% of members that agree Sid is THE expert when it comes to making and modifying .22LR AR's??



99% is perhaps a little ambitious

That said I can only speak as I find, I have had several .22 AR's in different flavours, other than the Bodmin based business very few RFD's are really interested in rimfires since Sabre stopped production of the Bremmer, if you are looking for a non standard configuration it becomes almost impossible. Perhaps the margins aren't there for most businesses, perhaps the market is too small particularly if every build is different but Sid was the only RFD interested in building a rifle to my spec and to my timescales, I've seen other one off jobs he's undertaken and been very impressed.

There are undoubtedly other RFD's with the necessary skills and machinery but very few will undertake one off .22 builds in a realistic timeframe and at realistic cost, personally if he wants to make this niche his own the best of luck to him.

I'll put up some pictures of mine when I get it back and we can all draw our own conclusions

Just my humble thoughts for the little they are usually worth

Richard




F**king 1% is ambitious
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 11:28:04 AM EDT
Well, how many regular posters are on this UK board?

10? -15?

So that makes between 10 and 20% by my maths.

The quality of his work is excellent, and is better than any gunsmith i have personally bought products from so far. (not just AR stuff I mean).

As richard says, his timescales and the fact he's an RFD weigh heavily in his favour for .22LR work.

The fact remains however, I could wipe Sid, Mark, Matt and Bob off the face of the UK AR producing world just by supplying faster than 6 months. AR's take SO long to assemble the parts from all the different places in the US if someone could keep a stock and supply within a week, none of you would have any customers left.

Link Posted: 3/2/2006 11:52:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By elucidate:
Well, how many regular posters are on this UK board?

10? -15?

So that makes between 10 and 20% by my maths.



That's between 79-89% less than you already quoted


The quality of his work is excellent, and is better than any gunsmith i have personally bought products from so far. (not just AR stuff I mean).


I like the way you said "I have personally bought from so far". Does this mean you have someone else to buy from in the future


As richard says, his timescales and the fact he's an RFD weigh heavily in his favour for .22LR work.

So how many .22's has he sold?? and if he want's to stick to .22's then go right ahead.
They don't float my boat.

The fact remains however, I could wipe Sid, Mark, Matt and Bob off the face of the UK AR producing world just by supplying faster than 6 months. AR's take SO long to assemble the parts from all the different places in the US if someone could keep a stock and supply within a week, none of you would have any customers left.


Wanna bet?
It's not about quantity, it really is about quality. Anyone can take a pile of proprietary parts and throw them together, but do you really know about barrel making and the intricacies (having trouble with that word) of building an accurate rifle or even finishing it so as to make it presentable.
I do and 27 years in engineering is my CV for deciding what's acceptable and what isn't.





Link Posted: 3/2/2006 12:25:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 1:40:57 PM EDT
My Oberland lower is actually a Rock River Arms lower, so you could be on winner there....
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 1:56:12 PM EDT
Fat Bob's lowers are shit
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 1:58:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
Fat Bob's lowers are shit



Wish i wouldve known better before i got mine



James
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